#jollamobile log for Friday, 2014-01-10

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bennypr0fanefind it on Jollatides00:00
bennypr0fanekeywords "battery life, nfc chip" prolly00:00
Pnuupawky: https://together.jolla.com/question/597/fix-power-consumption-other-half/00:00
pawkyahh.. i can finally see the sailfish in that logo :-D00:01
Pnuucheck the answer by petros00:01
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bennypr0faneguys does anyone still have the screen protector on?00:04
Tatuusi do =)00:04
pawkyPnuu: reading at best :-)00:04
bennypr0fanebcs I do, and I'm very much not satisfied with display precision and responsiveness00:04
bennypr0fanei've had incidents of like 5 attempts of double-tap to wake00:05
Tatuusi take it off when i have some sort of case for the phone to my belt etc00:05
pawkyPnuu: where do I find wget and cpan to install?00:05
pawkyPnuu: they are obviously not in the standard repos... :-(00:05
bennypr0faneand in browser, some links actually respond to tapping an area *beside* them00:06
Tatuusyep, benny, and writing an sms...00:06
bennypr0fane...so Iw as wondering whether taking of the protection would help with this problem00:06
bennypr0faneTatuus, oooh yes, that00:06
Pnuupawky: use curl -O as a wget workaround00:06
pawkyand cpan?00:07
Pnuuwhat's that?-)00:07
bennypr0fanedo you guys think the screen will be more responsive if I take it off?00:07
Pnuubennypr0fane: https://together.jolla.com/question/2893/bug-double-tap-did-not-unlock-properly/00:07
Pnuuhappens to me quite ofthen, too00:07
pawkyPnuu: perl repo? :-)00:08
Eztranneildk's OpenRepos, er, repo, has wget. (also, some nice other CLI tools)00:08
Pnuubennypr0fane: I guess it got a bit better, and the protector started to peel off anyways00:08
specialpawky: perl-CPAN is available.00:08
Pnuupawky: oh, yeah, that.. no idea if it's available00:08
Tatuusprotector on mine also wanting to come off already00:08
specialpawky: it's in mer-core.00:08
bennypr0fanePnuu, thanks, but that's not it. It actually remained asleep always. just refused to wake up. the gesture is not working reliably00:09
bennypr0fanePnuu, you're like the link-finding master though :-)00:09
Pnuubennypr0fane: how about this? https://together.jolla.com/question/6096/double-tap-occasionally-fails-to-wake-device/00:09
Tatuushave you updated benny? latest is called Maadajärvi00:09
Pnuuseems to be duplicates..00:09
Tatuusmy double-tab to wake up the phone works tiptop00:10
Pnuuah, no, not exactly duplicates00:10
bennypr0faneTatuus, yes, I have Maadajärvi, still have that problem00:11
bennypr0fanePnuu yes, that's the exact one00:12
bennypr0fanenot duplicates00:12
Tatuusit must be that protector though, benny, and maybe your touch is more gentle than mine :-)00:12
Pnuunow, sleep00:14
bennypr0faneTatuus, so you are gonna keep using one, yes?00:15
Tatuususing the protector? not long now... it's coming off by itself00:15
bennypr0faneinteresting, mine is like super-glued to the display00:17
bennypr0fanethe reason I use it is only bcs somehow it doesn't get greasy, you can't see the usual greasy swipe-marks00:18
TatuusBTW, i thought to fill my 1st Other Half with most not-so-easy to memorize linux commands with a magic marker :-)00:18
bennypr0faneTatuus, haha, you could make custom one complete with man pages :-D00:19
TatuusTerminal can save one from alot of trouble indeed, when in the know what to do00:19
bennypr0faneTatuus, ...and can get you into a lot of trouble as well00:20
TatuusYes i forgot... -when i started with Linux, i made couple of terrible mistakes :D00:21
pawkychem|st: I am starting to get the hang of it now, regarding the swype and all... :-)00:21
mtdsorry for the dumb question, but is there an easy way to develop apps on the device?  As in something like: 1) clone https://github.com/amarchen/helloworld-pro-sailfish on the device; 2) pkcon sdk-setup ...; 3) emacs-24.1-nox .../<something>.qml ; 4) launch app from Home; 5) goto 3)00:21
pawkyand its just soooo cool, having perl on the phone :-D00:21
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bennypr0faneTatuus, just a couple?00:23
TatuusJust a couple, yep, i wasn't all blindly rushing to things after the first big mistake :D00:24
bennypr0faneon the N900, I've created a mess quite a few times. I tend to just try things00:24
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bennypr0fanenot blindly, but short-sightedly *g*00:25
bennypr0fanegotta go. ahoi!00:25
Tatuusg'night00:25
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alight(late) bennypr0fane: "everybody calls different things intuitive" word up00:26
alighthttp://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html00:26
EztranYou managed to respond like 30 seconds after he left. :)00:26
alightaaaarrrrr00:26
alighthad to read up. and I read slow00:27
Tatuusi find the gesture of closing an app and finally the display, swipe from up - down, really cool for some reason :)00:27
alightthere has been a lot of research about these kind of things, if you know where to look00:28
alightstill waiting for my jolla though, so can't see how it holds up to the N9 quite yet00:29
Tatuusit's really good, i love it, and remember, it's still on beta i think00:29
alightis the social feed still in there?00:30
alighthi by the way00:31
Tatuusyou gotta get bunch of stuff from the store after you got it going 1st time00:31
Tatuuslike calendar etc...00:31
Tatuusand yea, hi :)00:32
Tatuuswhat i installed right away from Aptoide or Yandex, and work like charm (android compatibility): Spotify, Bambuser, Instagram, K-9 Mail....00:34
alightcool00:34
alightI need spotify, would be hard to live without00:34
TatuusTwitter, Opera, Firefox, Yaaic (irc)00:35
TatuusYes, same here00:35
alightwhen they announced spotify would get to N9 it was a no brainer00:35
alightended up with three different spotify clients ;D00:35
Tatuusi recommend that Yaaic for irc client for now on Jolla, it's very clear and works like it should00:36
alightI'll remember to check it out. My order hasn't been picked yet though. it's three weeks tomorrow and still not event sent from jolla :(00:36
Tatuusnot everything (yet) work right on thru that android compatibility mode00:36
TatuusMaybe to email them? I bet they're workin' their asses off with deliveries and updates and whatnot though00:38
alightit says 3-4 weeks in the shop, so they have not broken any promises yet00:40
Tatuusaww yes, right00:40
alightneed to get some sleep now though00:40
Tatuusnighty00:40
alightcya00:40
barahow does this google doc with the listed orders work? just add my order in a new line?00:43
pawkywhere are all the files you download by bluetooth located?00:43
pawkyoh... they get put in different directories depending on extention :-)00:44
Tatuuspawky, i use search (esxtension) usualy when i can't find00:44
Tatuussimple "apk" finds quickly all the .apk's00:45
Tatuussince i didn't find downloads which i made with FireFox..00:46
pawkyTatuus: duh, firefox? cannot find that one on the Jolla store...00:49
Tatuusget it from Yandex00:50
pawkyuh.... that must be a rather slow solution...00:50
Tatuusnot at all00:52
petantikssh/mosh+tmux+weechat00:52
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covoxinteresting, msyncd and timed-qt5 are fighting for supremacy of all the phone's CPU time04:03
covoxone of them is spawning those "Problem with connection" banners every second04:03
covoxok it's all timed-qt5 now :)04:05
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atlazMerry friday and a happy weekend05:59
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Siddeatlaz: o yes. only a day's work until the alcohol intake begins06:34
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Turskibegins?06:37
Turskithursday was already06:37
SiddeTurski: true, but the count resets every morning06:37
TurskiSidde: didn't sleep last night...06:38
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SiddeTurski: you're in for a long day today then?06:38
TurskiSidde: student parties are at thursdays and friday school day starts at 8:1506:38
Turski;)06:38
Siddein those days...06:39
Turskii'm not very interested about the topic of lesson at the moment though06:39
Siddehaha06:39
Turskibut at least it was fun night last night06:40
Siddeit can't be unhealthy if it's fun06:40
Turskiyeah06:41
tbrheh06:42
* tbr gets to have fun with some students today. A new load of internationals arrived and I promised to put them through the paces.06:42
Turskitbr: which land/city?06:43
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tbrTurski: at TTY06:43
Turskitbr: oh, i'm at TAMK06:43
tbrwell I'm not a student anymore, since 3 years06:44
tbrbut I still help the international club06:44
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tbrI live across the street anyway06:44
Turskitbr: btw, did you have something to do with fingerterm?06:44
tbrthat was my colleague: Hq`06:45
Turskispecifically why bash doesn't work correctly with fingerterm06:45
* tbr only uses it06:45
Turskitbr: i were told you had a theory about it06:45
tbrthere seem to be some corners, yes06:45
Turskitbr: and i partially solved it06:45
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tbrit burps on small font settings and folds wrong06:46
Turskitbr: i were talking about bash invocation06:46
Turskitbr: .bashrc and so on06:46
tbrah, you mean why it behaves different than the bash in the ssh session?06:46
Turskitbr: yep06:47
Turskitbr: doesn't load .bashrc06:47
JopeI was looking at that yesterday06:47
Jopenot all of the interactivity requirements for bash are satisfied when it is launched from lipstick.. I didn't verify, but my guess is the isatty() calls for the filehandles for stderr and stdin fail06:48
Turskitbr, Jope i investigated that for quite many hours day before yesterday06:48
Jopethe easiest way to make it happy was to invoke a shell to launch the shell06:48
Turskitbr Jope: see that https://together.jolla.com/question/5561/make-fingertermbash-startup-execute-standard-profilebashrc-scripts/?answer=12285#post-id-1228506:49
Jopeyes06:49
Jopethat post inspired me to look into the code06:49
TurskiJope: yeah, that's me06:49
Jopethanks for the inspiration :-)06:49
tbr:)06:49
Turskii was annoyed why it doesn't work06:49
JopeI was running the newer silica based version on my device and it no longer worked with your solution06:49
Jopehence I had to fix it elsewhere06:49
tbrooo, silica version :D06:50
Jopelet's see if thp pulls it in or if my code was deemed too shitty06:50
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Turskibut problem is that invoker sets POSIXLY:CORRECT and doesn't clear it06:50
Jopethat is part of the problem06:50
Jopebut at least in the version I was running, it wasn't enough06:50
Jopewhen I unset it in the code, it still didn't work06:50
Turskithat's true for me too06:50
Turskion jolla device06:50
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Jopeto me it seems that the problem is that the fingerterm process doesn't have a valid tty06:51
Jopeyet it gets execed to a shell06:51
Jopeso the shell will never be happy06:51
Turskii just don't understand why it's a problem06:51
Jope  if (forced_interactive ||             /* -i flag */06:51
Jope      (!command_execution_string &&     /* No -c command and ... */06:51
Jope       wordexp_only == 0 &&             /* No --wordexp and ... */06:51
Jope       ((arg_index == argc) ||          /*   no remaining args or... */06:51
Jope        read_from_stdin) &&             /*   -s flag with args, and */06:51
Jope       isatty (fileno (stdin)) &&       /* Input is a terminal and */06:51
Jope       isatty (fileno (stderr))))       /* error output is a terminal. */06:51
Jope    init_interactive ();06:51
Jopebecause of that06:51
JopeI may be mistaken, but this is how it seems to me06:51
JopeI didn't bother debugging bash there but that's basically the only thing that really can fail06:52
Turskiwould kinda make sense06:52
Jopeposixly correct is half of the solution06:52
Turskibut doesn't explain why it fails when launched with invoker?06:52
Jopeand sh -c "exec bash -l" was the second half06:52
Jopeinvoker doesn't give it a real tty?06:53
Jopeis what I've been trying to say06:53
Jopeso it will fail06:53
Turskibut why would fingerterm need tty?06:53
Jopeit doesn't06:53
Jopebut the shell it execs does06:53
Jopeand that shell gets the tty only after it has been execed06:53
Jopeagain I may be mistaken, but this is what it looked like06:53
Turskiisn't it fingerterm's job to create the tty for shell?06:53
Jopeit is06:53
Jopeand it does06:54
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Jopebut the shell is invoked first, then the tty gets passed to it06:54
Turskiso "isatty (fileno (stdin)) &&" makes the problem?06:55
Turskior triggers it06:55
Turskior...06:55
Jopey06:55
Turskii see06:55
TurskiJope: btw, are you a sailor?06:56
Jopey06:56
Turskigood06:56
Jopein case some real guru is interested in looking into this, I'd love to hear whether my deduction was right06:56
JopeI used some hours with this too yesterday06:56
Turskiyes, i'm not a real guru06:56
Turskijust fixed it for me06:56
Jopedidn't mean to imply anything about your guruness there :-)06:57
Turskii'm just saying that06:57
Turskii have no much experience with that stuff06:57
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Turskii've just been using linux as my main OS for about 9 years06:58
pawky|3Turski, yeah thats really a short time span...06:58
Turskii started using linux when i was 13 years old or so06:59
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pawky|3Turski, its not about the years, but rather what you have accomplished... ;-)07:01
Siddepawky|3: it's about how much money you have made on your linux experience ;)07:03
pawky|3Sidde: Nah, we are always underpaid and under apreciated... ;-)07:04
Siddemore money = more linux-toys = more fun07:04
pawky|3Sidde: being poor makes you hungry and striving. :-)07:05
pawky|3why is networkmanager still such a crappy app... work damn you work!! give me a "#¤! ip on usb007:05
Siddemy jolla phone is going to incorporate linux into my boat. So i can have even more fun when sailing07:06
pawky|3Sidde: :-)07:06
entilis it possible to change the keyboard? like, is there an api for keyboard input and a setting for which app it uses?07:07
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jayauraGreetings everyone. After going through a variety of resources on the net about jolla, my question is, is this open hardware ?07:12
tbrby most definitions probably no07:13
pawky|3tbr: second that07:13
jayauratbr, so only the software part is open, right ?07:13
tbrmost of the software on it is open source though and interesting interfaces on the hardware are accessible and documented07:13
Siddenot all software is open source though07:14
jayauratbr, okay07:14
jayauraSidde, you mean the firmware, right? like wifi and stuff07:14
Siddethe sailfish ui07:14
tbrgraphics drivers07:14
tbrmodem drivers07:14
tbralthough the higher parts of the telephony stack are open07:15
tbrI thought the silica parts were being open sourced?07:15
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jayauraSidde, Sailfish UI ? I dont get it, sailfish being open, why would the UI be closed? whats the whole point then ?07:16
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pawky|3tbr: that sounds like you are thinking about Openmoko...07:17
Siddejayaura: i have no idea why. It's very disappointing to say the least07:18
jayaurapawky, i know openmoko was a failure. Is that the reason for this partially closed nature ?07:18
Siddejayaura: maybe they have uses source code that is not open...07:18
pawky|3Jayaura: nah, in my oppinion (who oned one A02) it was about having hardware problems with the microphone...07:19
tehdelywhat aspects of sailfish are closed07:19
tbrSidde: if you are looking for totally open hardware/software, then this is not for you07:19
tehdelyaside from the baseband, obvs07:19
Siddetbr: true. but it is marketed as open source which is a bit misleading07:19
tehdelybaseband is never open.  NSA/GCHQ has gotta stash their nastiness somewhere ;)07:19
pawky|3jayaura: they do have newer versions though, if not misstaken....07:19
Siddetbr: it's like apple saying osx is open source...07:19
tbrSidde: open source != open hardware07:19
tbrand most of the OS is open source07:20
Siddetbr: silica is not open source...07:20
tehdelyapple doesn't pass OS X off as open source.  they just point out that they use a lot of it07:20
Siddetehdely: indeed07:20
tbrSidde: which is a tiny part and it IS being open sourced AFAIU07:20
jayauratehdely, so will the UI be open eventually07:20
pawky|3jayaura: I owned an Openmoko for 2 years, and succeded with 0.5 phonecalls on it  (the person couldn't hear me well enough...07:20
tehdelyso anyhow what of sailfish is NOT currently free/OSS?07:20
tbrSidde: I'd recommend to look at the OS architecture to get an idea how much is open source07:20
tehdelyjayaura: that i don't know.  i'd certainly like to find out07:21
Siddetbr: yes, i know. I'm just saying that everything is not open07:21
tbrtehdely: hw-adaptation, android runtime, some 3rd party parts, some UI bits. not much really if you look at the whole07:21
tbrSidde: and I said, that if you look for 100% open then this is not for you. (and good luck finding such a thing, the last few % become insanely hard)07:22
Siddetbr: i know. That is why i settled with jolla/sailfish instead of buing a linux-arm board with all sensors needed07:23
tehdelyare the individual jolla applications (phone, calendar, etc.) OSS?07:23
tehdelyi ask because i'm interested in hacking on some of them at some point07:23
jayauratbr, indeed, but the only place where you need to be closed would the firmware related space. If UI is closed, how can someone be sure that NSA doesnt have a hand in this ?07:24
tehdelyjayaura: the NSA has better places to stash their shit than the UI07:24
tbr+107:24
stephgyup07:24
tehdelyfind me a shipping 3G-or-greater phone with an open baseband firmware07:24
tehdelyyou won't07:24
tbrexactly07:24
tehdelythat is where everything awful will be found07:24
tehdelythe ability to track you without your consent, activate your microphone, etc. etc.07:25
tehdelyit's way down the stack :)07:25
tehdelysomewhere even your vendor can't touch07:25
jayauratehdely, yes I get it :)07:25
tbrthe baseband CPUs have become quite powerful, and they usually share the _full_ memory address space with the regular CPU07:25
pawky|3tehdely: I think its doable, if being persistent enough...07:25
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pawky|3tehdely: in the end its in the firmware....07:26
tehdelyyes07:26
tbrpawky|3: which means you have to go with hardware that's at least 2 generations behind07:26
tbrbut yes, if that's acceptable07:26
tehdelyand the reason they can get away with it there, is because there's only a handful of baseband implementations made by a handful of companies . and they're all compromised out the door.  they wouldn't get the necessary certifications (FCC, etc.) if they weren't.07:26
pawky|3tbr: no, but with a phone you can  fetch and upload firmware07:26
tbrpawky|3: if such doesn't exist as open source, you're at square 1 again07:27
tehdelyif you want an uncompromised phone, you can probably put together one that's GSM-only.  i'm pretty sure there's straight-up GSM chipsets you can bolt onto a gumstix07:27
jayaurapawky, I think you also need 7 digit money to get into the list for making gsm layer 107:27
tehdelyand then you're only being spied on via the network07:27
pawky|3tbr: no... its just called reverse engineering :-)07:27
tbrpawky|3: show me a fully RE'd 3G chipset, NOW07:27
tbrpawky|3: my point being is that RE takes time, hence you loose at least one or two generations of hw due to time07:28
tbrmost people conveniently ignore that07:28
jayauratbr, as if you will build a phone now if you got an open 3g chipset :D07:28
tehdelyyep.  that's the compromise you have to accept.  being a little stuck in the past07:28
pawky|3tbr: that might be, it depends upon  the crowd working with it, but it IS fully doable07:28
tehdelythink of the gluglug x60s laptop07:28
tehdelythe FSF certified it as being 100% Free07:29
sharpneliIn practice RE takes more time than just taking the specs into your own hands and just making a new implementation.07:29
tehdelybut they achieve that by taking a machine old enough that they can work out its nooks and crannies07:29
tehdelyand support it with a free BIOS07:29
pawky|3tbr: thats actually the part I miss when switching away from Windows... :'(07:29
pawky|3tbr: you never need to RE any software when using linux... :'(07:30
tbrpawky|3: join the XDA forums, they like to binary patch stuff (instead of recompiling it)07:30
pawky|3tbr: I know :-)07:31
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tbrbbl, time to head to the orkplace07:31
pawky|3tbr: cool! a place full of orks :-)07:32
sharpneliNeed moar dakka!07:32
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pawky|3sharpneli: ok here you are: "dakka, dakka,dakka,dakka...." ;-)07:33
sharpnelitbr: I'd truly wish the graphics drivers in Jolla would be updateable. It doesn't matter if they are closed source but as long as the manufacturer would bother to allow people to upgrade their drivers :E07:34
sharpneliThe HW supports OpenGL ES 3.0. The driver version in Jolla is so ancient that it doesn't support it yet :(07:34
tbrpawky|3: yup, just in case I take my Ogre-slaying-knife (+9 against ogres), maybe they work with orks too07:34
pawky|3tbr: LOL07:35
Turskipawky|3: well, i've accomplised at least that: http://turski.dy.fi/foo/curses_ei_nain.png07:35
tbrsharpneli: try it, but make sure that you can do factory reset from recovery first...07:35
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sharpnelitbr: Any idea if it's going to require changes to the kernel?07:37
Stskeepsprobably will require a new kgsl07:37
Stskeepsthe real problem would be that the drivers that are available are the ones in AOSP which has funny licensing07:37
tehdelywon't someone think of the children07:38
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sharpneliFunny in what way? They are for personal use only or?07:38
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Stskeepssharpneli: yeah, well, i'm not a lawyer07:39
Stskeepsin our case we get a package from ODM and that's pretty much it + bug fixes in terms of upgradeability07:39
sharpneliMe neither. I've never ever understood the manufacturers who place limits like that.07:39
sharpneliYeah07:40
pawky|3Now this is really crappy, why does usb0 get an directly when plugin in my N9 in dev mode, but not the Jolla???07:40
pawky|3with networkmanager...07:40
Turskipawky|3: huh?07:40
sharpneliDesktop world is refreshing compared to mobile. AMD/Nvidia/Intel provide the drivers to everyone. Because they are useful only if you have their HW so what's the harm in distributing them?07:40
pawky|3Turski: huh, like huh that sounds strange, or, huh what is usb0? ;-)07:41
Turskipawky|3: huh about what N9 gets automatically?07:42
Turskiip?07:42
pawky|3Turski, well the N9 doen't get anything, but Networkmanager gives the usb0 connection an ip address when plugin in the N9, but refuses for the Jolla07:42
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Turskiah, so it's networkmanager stuff07:43
pawky|3Turski: In a way.... but its also Jolla versus N907:43
Turskii'm using only dhcpcd on my desktop and netctl on my laptop07:43
pawky|3Turski: I cannot see the difference between these two connections to be honest, both will be usb networking...07:44
Turskipawky|3: is there dhcp running on N9 then?07:45
pawky|3Turski: I certainly belive so, but not on the Jolla as it doesn't give me any IP... :-(07:46
Turskithat would explain it07:46
Turskiyes, there's no dhcp on jolla07:46
pawky|3Turski, but why isnt it running by default then???07:46
pawky|3Turski: ehh.. why not?07:46
Turskithat's a good question07:46
pawky|3Turski: duh, there seem to be no dhcpd to be found?...07:49
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Turski...07:49
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tachikomahas anyone used SoundEffect in qml apps on jolla?07:53
tachikomait seems not to be affected by the system volume setting07:53
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tachikomai just got a notification about a new system update but upon clicking that I am told that the system is up to date ...08:41
Stskeepsyes, it's a bug08:41
Stskeepswe can't time travel to fix it since it's client side08:41
tachikomanp08:43
tachikomawas just confused08:43
tachikomabut you should do time travel enabled development, so much more customer satisfaction with that ;)08:43
fluxhmm, they're denying it, so probably jolla is going to have time travel some time soon..08:43
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Stskeepsflux: i have on occasion wanted that we employ a few time travellers.08:44
Stskeepsit would make the QA process so much easier08:45
Stskeeps:P08:45
tachikomai always have to think of this when it comes to time travel:08:45
tachikomahttp://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory08:45
sharpneliHow do you know someone is dedicated to his task: First thought about time travel is "QA would be so much easier"08:45
Gorith:D08:49
AL13N_workhehe08:51
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ggabrielmorning09:20
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ballockmorning!09:26
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chem|stpawky|3: :)09:47
chem|stmorning!09:47
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netzviehis there a possibility to merge contacts?10:26
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leinirnetzvieh: you're looking for the term link :)10:28
chem|sthow do I get back to a drafted msg?10:28
chem|stnetzvieh: pulley-menu -> Link10:28
leinirchem|st: not knowing it, but a wild guess would be swipe to the attached page with folders, guessing there might be a drafts folder?10:28
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netzviehah thanks leinir & chem|st10:29
chem|stleinir: ta10:29
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leinirchem|st: you're welcome :) just a guess, but hey :)10:31
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chem|stStskeeps: longterm... have multiple windows of mail/sms/IM possible... maybe by a setting activatable10:31
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Stskeepschem|st: good item for together.*, our designers are there10:32
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Venemo_jhey10:36
Stskeepsmorn Venemo_j10:36
Kiranos_Stskeeps: really nice initiative with together, how do jolla feel about it, is it managable or growing to much?10:36
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tbrmooo10:36
StskeepsKiranos_: i'll have to ask the hivemind how it feels10:36
Venemo_jmoo10:36
StskeepsKiranos_: we have our cto, designers there, many other people lurking and reading.. i'd say it's a sucess10:37
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chem|sthttps://together.jolla.com/question/13085/real-multitasking-for-composing-apps-mail-sms-mms-im-browser/10:41
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Kiranos_Stskeeps: nice!10:48
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chem|sthttps://together.jolla.com/question/13096/bash-completion/10:56
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Kiranos_chem|st: yikes must login an upvote that when I get home10:58
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chem|stKiranos_: it is the jolla login11:00
Kiranos_yea have it at home11:00
Kiranos_dont own a jolla11:00
chem|stah :)11:00
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netzviehhmm on the bottom of the jolla only the left is loudspeaker & the right is mic?11:01
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Morpog_PCyes11:02
ggabrielnetzvieh: one is speaker, the other one is mic, can't remember which is which11:02
Stskeepsone is speaker one is cosmetic11:02
netzviehoO okay why only cosmetic?11:02
ggabrielbecause pretty :P11:03
netzviehokay, i'll give you that, but why not two speakers?11:04
ln-i'd give -1000 to bash-completion if i could11:04
ggabrielcomplexity, price, etc i'd say11:04
claunetzvieh, let me ask you a better question: why two? :P11:04
ggabrielnot sure what a stereo set up would do on a phone tbh11:04
ggabrieljust plug in headphones11:04
netzviehclau: stereo :D11:04
clauwhen the speakers are 2cm apart?11:05
ggabrielnetzvieh: search for dolby stereo or similar and check out the recommended layout of speakers11:05
clauif they'd at least be on sides, it would make sense, but having them both at the bottom with the same orientation would mean you wouldn't even be able to tell if it's stereo or not.11:06
netzviehclau: maybe my head is just 1.5cm wide? ;) no but yeah theres not really a reason why s1 would need two speakers there11:06
clau:D11:06
netzviehln-: why?11:07
ggabrielln-: i don't like debian-like bash completion either, but not so much ;-)11:08
ln-netzvieh: because it's annoying as hell. requires more manual typing when bash-completion refuses to complete a filename it thinks isn't appropriate for the current context.11:09
claudid anyone receive the poppy red o.h.?11:12
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Kiranos_ln minus a 1000, cant see why? :)11:13
ggabrielinteresting use case: scanning through rss feeds in an active cover, while watching a video on another one. something i wasn't able to do before. nice :-)11:13
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Kiranos_oh I remember my n90011:14
chem|stclau: cause you block one speaker when holding the device landscape - for example11:15
chem|stln-: then it is not properly set up11:16
the_mgtclau: i did11:16
clauchem|st, that's a good point11:16
clauthe_mgt, were you announced when it was sent to you?11:16
chem|stclau: poppy red it is...11:16
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chem|stclau: it was shipped with the device11:17
dazoclau: Are you sure it's stereo loudspeakers?  I've heard that one of the "grills" is for the loudspeaker while the other one for the microphone ... but I haven't checked the facts myself11:17
chem|stdazo: we are at that point11:17
chem|stdazo: it is single speacker11:17
chem|stspeaker11:17
the_mgtclau: was shipped with the device and that was announced11:17
dazochem|st: the_mgt : some of us got a little paper instead, saying TOH would be shipped later on11:17
clauI only got the device and a promise I will get the poppy red later :|11:17
chem|stthe_mgt: announced the day I received it, after I received it...11:17
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chem|stwith a trcking number ending with E-1411:18
the_mgtstereo in mobilephones... shouldn't we have 7.2 thx certified dts by now? matching the fullhd displays...11:18
clauchem|st, happened to me to, but haven't got the extra toh11:18
chem|stclau: out of stock then11:18
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clau*too11:18
chem|stclau: it is nothing that special yet11:18
the_mgtI do not use mine, it is nice to have, but i am a little disappointed11:19
chem|sta hivemind ringtone and some other tunes11:19
the_mgtI'd rather have the light cyan as a color11:19
clauit's not that important, I was just wondering because I'm currently traveling and if they send it there might be noone to get it.11:19
chem|stI actually use it to have a differnet toh on it than my sister11:19
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ggabrielhivemind ringtone sounds cool :)11:20
dazothe_mgt: (7.1/thx/dts) funny! :)11:20
clauas far as I am concerned, these simple toh's are overrated.11:20
chem|stthe_mgt: there is yet to come some special features to toh and ambiences11:20
claureplacing them too often isn't a good idea probably.11:20
ggabrielclau: we had somebody yesterday here asking about how to integrate it with their hockey (or some sport) application11:20
ggabrieltechnically, it's not a big deal, but you can do cool things11:21
chem|stas soon as I am able to order toh I will build a breakout toh and start a kickstarter11:21
ggabrielfor technically cool things, check out solar panel, oled display, keyboard :)11:21
clauI'm going to wait for something more functional11:21
clauyep, I've seen the solar panel. pretty cool thingie.11:21
chem|stggabriel: paperwhite toh would be cool11:21
the_mgtdaisy-chainable qwertz/y please11:22
clauI wonder for how many changes is the phone rated. eventually it will get worn out.11:22
clauand while getting a new TOH won't be very expensive, getting a new phone will hurt.11:23
ggabrielchem|st: you mean snow white? yeah, i really like the background11:23
the_mgti guess the OH will surrender before the phone does11:23
chem|stthe_mgt: daisy chain?11:23
the_mgtchem|st: so you can plug another OH on the back of the keyboard11:23
chem|stthe_mgt: I do not need multiple qwerty kbds11:23
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chem|stah yeah that was actually an idea I had in the beginning but it will double the size...11:24
chem|stfat bugger it would be11:24
ggabrielclau: as long as the material of the other half is softer than the material in the main phone, i don't see how the phone will break11:24
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the_mgtchem|st: yes, maybe11:25
ggabrielso basically beware of dodgy other halves11:25
chem|stclau: the clipon system is made to limit wear11:25
pawky|3chem|st: this instruction might be good and all, but to where am I to copy that system  directory?11:26
chem|stand the thing wearing is toh11:26
pawky|3chem|st http://www.jollatides.com/2013/11/29/jolla-how-to-access-google-play/11:26
chem|stpawky|3: you copy system to your home/nemo/11:26
clauchem|st, good to hear11:26
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pawky|3chem|st aahhh....  RFM error on my side... ;-)11:27
chem|stpawky|3: if you copy and paste the lines be aware of a - -- fault that can happen for the copy command11:27
chem|stand do exactly the way described11:28
pawky|3chem|st ok11:28
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pawky|3chem|st "install GooglePlay services to jolla...." like, from Yandex?11:34
chem|stpawky|3: RTFM read again...11:35
netzviehits a link. klick on it. download apk. install apk :=11:36
netzvieh:)11:36
chem|stthe "GooglePlay services" is a link11:36
pawky|3chem|st ohh..... a liiiiiiink...... :-D11:36
chem|stso is the "Google Play Store"11:36
chem|stand do in that order11:36
the_mgtone is an apk, the other a zip, iirc11:37
pawky|3chem|st: what happened to the good old link underscores, so one could tell the difference?... ;-)11:38
netzviehpawky: it has another color ;)11:38
netzviehrather blackish than the light grey :D11:38
pawky|3netzvieh, may I inform you black is not a color? :-D11:39
pawky|3Will jolla automatically install downloaded apk's? or do I have to go root on myself? :-)11:40
the_mgtyou have to "click" it, but yes, the rest is automatically11:41
pawky|3the_mgt ahhh there we are ! a play store :-D11:42
Venemo_jwhy's everyone so interested in the play store?11:42
the_mgtit failed for me a few times while it intransparently downloaded updates, etc11:42
Venemo_jit's just a load of android crap11:43
pawky|3Venemo_¡ its called, your bank apps.... and Gleeo :-)11:43
the_mgtVenemo_j: out of curiosity. I found most android apps are butt ugly and those I have installed are just so that i might use them sometimes. like vnc, rdp and teamviewer11:44
dazoVenemo_j: several of the services from different companies where I live only publish their stuff in Google Store11:44
pawky|3dazo: I second that11:44
ggabrielpawky|3: it's interesting that you trust android to run your bank application11:44
ggabrielwell, that anybody trusts android to run their bank application...11:44
pawky|3Until Jolla gets these companies to write a native app, we seem to be stuck having to use android...11:44
phdeswerespecially since there are these nice banking apps that save your credentials on the phone...11:45
pawky|3But I am very happy i can do it  in a jolla11:45
ggabrieldunno, i use my laptop for banking11:45
dazoggabriel: why would a jolla app be safer?11:45
ggabrieland i used my phone's browser in emergencies11:45
pawky|3phdeswer, to which they have not much use as its one time passwords..11:45
ggabrieldazo: i never said anything about safe/secure11:45
ggabrieli'm talking about trust :)11:45
pawky|3ggabriel: and I am talking about reality11:46
ggabrielpawky|3: yeah, me too... i do onlinen banking too11:46
the_mgtiirc, in germany, you can use hbci keyfiles for online banking, so it works without a pin/tan11:46
the_mgteven on smartphones. it works on ios11:46
ggabriel(onlinen is the german term btw :P )11:46
dazoggabriel: trust is related to security ... you can't have security without trust, and trust without security is kind of moot too, IMHO11:46
ggabrielanyway, i find it interesting, that's all11:46
ggabrieldazo: i disagree11:47
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ggabrieldazo: security assessments would require the source code, which you won't have11:47
dazohence the trust element11:47
phdeswerpawky|3: depends on the bank and how the app does things... This is a nice example why you should not use apps like that http://www.encripto.no/forskning/whitepapers/Nordea_mobilbank_android_multiple_vulnerabilities.pdf11:47
ggabrieltrust is different, as it's built and it's, well, irrational11:47
pawky|3when it comes to bank security, its THEIR headache, not mine...11:47
dazoggabriel: you trust that the bank provides an app which is secure for you11:48
ggabrielpawky|3: well, i remember the story told in a ccc years ago about a guy who lost money due to bank's incompetency, so it's kinda one's problem too11:48
ggabrieldazo: but i don't trust android, which is made by google, which announced they'd do evil things since 2010...11:48
ggabrielanyway11:48
ggabrieldind't want to start a fight11:48
dazofair enough11:48
ggabrieljust find it interesting11:48
dazo:)11:48
pawky|3ggabriel: depends upon country...11:49
ggabrielpawky|3: true, this happened in the uk and the court was a uk one11:49
ggabrielsadly, there's an economic element to these things11:49
dazoggabriel: but wouldn't aliendalvik actually provide a better trust level towards the android platform?  As it's the android API, but implemented by other people11:49
ggabrielso, if you lose 2k, there's no point elevating this to an EU court11:49
zuttoggabriel: you better start avoiding sending any packets trought US/UK/SE/NZ/JP or any other country for that matter if you avoid google for doing evil things11:49
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pawky|3ggabriel: luckily that's NOT my country :-D11:50
ggabrieldazo: yeah, but the fact that you need it in your jolla, means that you already used it in an android :)11:50
ggabrielzutto: that's relative, but yeah11:50
chem|stI do not trust an app on the device I receive SMS-tan to...11:50
dazoggabriel: well, not in my case ... I switched from N900 ... but I'd like some of the Android apps which is only available there, to make my life easier ;-)  (as I have friends and a wife who uses them)11:51
ggabrieldazo: yeah, that's fair enough11:51
ggabrieli'm quite anal myself tbh11:51
ggabrieli don't necessarily "trust", but i make sure that my traffic goes through my isp, who i pay to11:51
ggabrielso they are liable11:51
ggabrielit's hard to do that with a phone11:52
ggabrielwell, jolla is actually much easier11:52
dazoagreed11:52
pawky|3With Jolla, I am in the end in control (i hope) what the phone does and when, to whom...11:52
dazopawky|3: you're in control there in the moment you log all the traffic in and out and gets alerts when something unexpected is happening11:53
ggabrielpawky|3: i never noticed that flashlight was logging usage tbh ;-)11:53
pawky|3great, the app  bank works perfectly11:53
pawky|3(bank app)11:54
pawky|3ggabriel: interesting :-)11:54
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ggabrielbut you can have tcpdump in sailfish11:54
ggabrielwhich is cool11:54
pawky|3Until someone ports a great app like Gleeo to Jolla, I will be stuck having to use Android through Jolla... :-)11:55
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pawky|3you should all try it.. kind of interesting gui, an inspiration for jolla? :-)11:56
ggabrieli think i'm a bit more disorganised than you pawky|311:56
ggabrieli only track when i do some sport11:56
dazopawky|3: so you're tracking how much time you spend on this IRC channel?!?11:57
* dazo ducks11:57
pawky|3ggabriel: lol, well i might actually be disorganized with the difference of at least trying, or prettending not to be ;-)11:57
pawky|3dazo: LOL... well I hope my boss next to me doesn't ;-)11:57
pawky|3Am I the only person a bit worried, my phone has already eaten 20% of the battery?11:58
dazopawky|3: did you stop the tohd service?11:58
Pnuuhave you disabled tohd.service?11:58
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dazomy phone lasts 2-3 days, with fairly active use (including wifi and bluetooth headset)11:59
ggabrieldazo: same here, no android tho, it's pretty cool11:59
Tofeyep, same here11:59
pawky|3will android apps eat more battery?12:00
pawky|3and, do I have to turn of that NFC chip  to make it last these 2-3 days?12:00
ggabrielyup, alien dalvik has been reported to eat a bit more battery, but the key here is to stop tohd.service12:00
ggabrielpawky|3: YES, switch off the nfc thing12:00
ggabrielthat's the main thing12:00
dazoat least until they've fixed the bug related to the nfc battery drain12:01
HarhaanJohtajait eats battery something like 3 % per hour if you dont stop that nfc thing12:02
pawky|3once you connected only charging, can you change to dev-mode  ssh, without unplugging ?12:02
pawky|3Harhaanjohtaja: something to disable in rc.local then?12:03
Pnuuvia wlan, yes12:03
ggabrielpawky|3: (with root) systemctl stop tohd.service12:03
ggabrielbut you have to do that every time you reboot12:03
dazosystemctl disable tohd.service ; systemctl mask tohd.service12:04
dazothat'll make it persistent through boots too12:04
pawky|3ggabriel:  why not put it in a boot rc ?12:04
Pnuustop+mask is the way to go12:04
ggabrielif you mask/disable, though, remember to unmask/enable before the next upgrade just in case12:04
pawky|3dazo: thanks..12:04
ggabrielpawky|3: no rc in jolla? :)12:04
dazoyupp!!12:04
pawky|3Pnuu: duh? stop+mask?12:04
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pawky|3ggabriel: rc..... or similar :-)12:04
ggabrielpawky|3: yeah, that's what systemctl does12:05
dazopawky|3: systemd is the next-gen rc stuff12:05
ggabrieli'm personally not disabling/masking12:05
pawky|3ggabriel: untili you reboot right?12:05
ggabrieldazo: open-rc folks will disagree :P12:05
ggabrielpawky|3: i stop every time i reboot12:05
dazoggabriel: hehehe12:05
ggabrielbecause i'll forget12:05
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Pnuupawky|3: devel-su systemctl stop tohd.service && devel-su systemctl mask tohd.service12:06
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dazoPnuu: do you know why 'disable' isn't good enough, instead of 'mask'?12:06
Pnuudazo: with disable other processe can still start the service12:07
Pnuuprocesses12:07
dazoPnuu: ahh, okay12:07
dazothx!12:07
Pnuumasking prevents that12:07
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pawky|3Pnuu: won't the services being able to start the service also be able to stop it once done?12:08
TofePnuu: however, this modifies permanently (until unmask is done) the way the services are started on the device. Only doing "stop" is a little bit safer with regards to that12:08
ggabrielit'd be interesting to know what else has stopped after masking+reboot12:09
PnuuTofe: true, I guess12:09
chem|stpawky|3: "systemctl mask $tool.service" symlinks it to dev null12:09
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ggabrielsome folks reported weird behaviour by having tohd.service masked/stopped12:09
Pnuuthe 1.0.25 update worked fine with mask, but well, YMMV12:09
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Tofeggabriel: do you have an example ?12:09
AL13N_lappyi got my Jolla!12:09
Pnuuyay!12:09
AL13N_lappyi didn't expect it so early12:10
ggabrielTofe: i can't remember, something related to sync'ing or something like that?12:10
ggabrielit's in tjc12:10
Tofeokay12:10
AL13N_lappybtw: after you type in the wrong password in a WLAN, how can i retry/reconfigure?12:10
ggabrielTofe: tbh, i'll wait until this is fixed for real before reporting new "strange" bugs :)12:10
chem|stggabriel: that behaviour was unrelated to the masked service12:10
pawky|3who uses NFC anyway?....12:10
netzviehAL13N_lappy: should be able to "Forget"12:10
pawky|3I love /dev/null :-D12:10
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ggabrielpawky|3: i have 2 nokia 360 speakers12:11
ggabrielit's good to impresss your friends12:11
Tofeggabriel: yes, let's hope it comes with the next bugfix update12:11
AL13N_lappyi tried press and hold12:11
netzviehAL13N_lappy: long press on network name -> Forget network12:11
netzviehworks for me12:11
pawky|3ggabriel: isn't bluetooth better suited?12:11
ggabrielpawky|3: that's exactly what it does :P pairs automatically12:11
Pnuupawky|3: TOH uses NFC12:11
pawky|3ggabriel: as you can hear, never used NFC...12:12
ggabrielnfc is quite cool, but i won't miss it12:12
Venemo_jI used NFC every day12:13
Venemo_jso I miss it a bit12:13
pawky|3Venemo_j: for what exactly?12:14
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pawky|3reading pasport RFIDs? :-)12:14
Venemo_jto connect to my headset12:14
Venemo_jnow I have to crawl in to the settings to do it12:15
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Venemo_jit's a hassle now12:16
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AL13N_lappynetzvieh: ok, it didn't get registered yet, i just had to turn off wifi and back on again, and i can retry, but it keeps being on connecting for a long time12:20
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AL13N_lappyok, nvm, it worked12:20
netzviehAL13N_lappy: hmm strange, usually it should work quite fast12:21
netzviehah okay :D12:21
netzviehgood12:21
AL13N_lappyshould i register first? or first update to 1.0.2.5 ?12:21
AL13N_lappyPnuu: ^^12:21
Venemo_jStskeeps, are you aware of any wifi + bt coexistence issues?12:21
Stskeepsthere's one with BT LE at least12:22
Stskeepsbut not sure about BT normal12:22
AL13N_lappyVenemo_j: what IRC app did you use?12:23
PnuuAL13N_lappy: upgrade asap12:23
Pnuubefore updating any software atleast12:23
AL13N_lappyi had to do WLAN connection at least12:23
AL13N_lappyshould i register the phone with jolla first?12:23
PnuuAL13N_lappy: might help contacting the store :-)12:24
tbr:>12:24
AL13N_lappyexactly :-)12:24
Venemo_jStskeeps, any about A2DP?12:25
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StskeepsVenemo_j: well that's BT too12:26
Stskeepsi haven't tested A2DP mself12:26
Venemo_jAL13N, I use IRC for Sailfish12:26
Venemo_jStskeeps, sometimes weird things happen if I try to connect to wifi while using A2DP12:27
Venemo_jStskeeps, I also have an incriminating dmesg output12:27
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Triztthought there was a new update pushed out, but no it's just a renotification of the 1.0.2.5 release12:28
Venemo_jyes, it happens12:28
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AL13N_lappyi'm checking update, but it seems to take quite a while...12:35
Pnuuit does12:35
AL13N_lappywell, i'll see what happens12:36
Triztupdate check don't take long at all for me12:36
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Venemo_jwhat, is there a new update?12:37
Stskeepsno, just bad notifications from a obsessed store clients12:38
Stskeeps:P12:38
Stskeeps-s12:38
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AL13N_lappyStskeeps: well, there is more than one :-)12:38
ggabrielStskeeps: between the update to tidings and the update to flashlight i didn't get any sailfish update notification :)12:38
TriztStskeeps: is there an update planed for this month?12:38
StskeepsTrizt: plans can always go awry12:39
Triztsure they can12:39
AL13N_lappythey did promise a feature update in Q1 this year :-)12:39
Venemo_jso Sts, are you interested in that dmesg?12:40
StskeepsVenemo_j: i am12:40
Stskeepsmail it to me12:40
Venemo_jok, will send as soon as I get home12:40
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svuorelaare there any other halfs available yet ?  the white one already seems to become dirty13:18
ggabrielsvuorela: no... did you try cleaning it? :)13:19
svuorelayes. it is a daily experience13:20
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ggabrieluhm... hydrophobic other half sounds like a good idea then13:21
Pnuu3D-print more :-)13:21
ggabrielor just clean the white one and spray it with hydrophobic stuff13:21
vegaiI liked the solar panel idea13:21
vegaidunno if that's realistic13:21
Pnuuvegai: this one? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9231713:22
chem|stggabriel: lipophobic...not hydrophobic13:22
ggabrielchem|st: i'm unsure, i thought the nano technology would do the same thing13:23
ggabrielbut *shrug*13:23
ggabrielyou get the idea13:23
chem|stvegai: I'd do a CIGS coated TOH with direct connectors13:23
jussisvuorela: Im fairly certain you can find one of the limited edition ones on ebay... if you pay enough :D13:24
chem|stggabriel: the dirt is organic moist so lipophobic13:24
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svuorelajussi: lol.13:24
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vegaiPnuu: I suppose that's it13:28
vegai" I haven't seen sun in a month or so here in Finland so the test was performed under 70 W halogen, distance ~10 cm." :-(13:28
Pnuuit's been a bit cloudy here..13:29
vegaichem|st: what are you, a chemist? :P13:29
zbenjaminsvuorela: there is a sprayable color that can be pulled of if you don't like it anymore. Sadly i forgot the name13:30
zbenjaminits like foil out of a can13:30
Venemochem|st: CIGS=?13:31
svuorelazbenjamin: that's the kind of experiment I wouldn't mind doing if it was possible to get a couple of more white ones for teh experimentations13:32
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zbenjamini think it was PlastiDip13:33
zbenjaminsvuorela: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ak_v_76iI13:33
kehnoo_I've got extra white one13:34
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svuorelakehnoo_: how does one get such ones ?13:34
kehnoo_just bad/good luck I guess :p13:35
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Venemoviq: ping13:47
viqVenemo: pong13:47
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Venemoviq: does the modified sd card mount thing still work?13:50
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viqVenemo: couple hours ago I rebooted my phone and the card is mounted, so yes13:53
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viqVenemo: though in that thread the guy was saying that the FS_ID or whatever it was called was not necessary, I have not tried to verify that.13:55
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chem|stVenemo: CIGS is a printable photovoltaic material14:25
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chem|sthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_indium_gallium_selenide14:25
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chem|stvegai: you guessed right^^14:27
chem|stvegai: I work at an institute for surface and thinfilm analytics in the field of 3D atom probe tomography14:29
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Venemoviq: great, can you gimme a link to the script again? also, do you think you can create a pull request on github to get it fixed in upstream14:36
viqhttps://gist.github.com/viq/820102114:36
Venemoviq: thanks! and which file do I have to override with this?14:37
viqVenemo: also, there already is a pull request, that's where I originally got the file from, https://github.com/nemomobile/sd-utils/pull/814:38
Venemook!14:38
Venemoso where do I put this file?14:39
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viqI think it's in /usr/bin or /usr/sbin14:39
Venemoviq: is it /usr/sbin/mount-sd.sh ?14:41
viqsounds right14:41
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Venemobtw, is there a way to change the hostname of the jolla?14:42
Venemoit is now just 'localhost'14:42
chem|stVenemo: write /etc/hostname14:42
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Venemochem|st: there is no such file14:43
Venemochem|st: shall I create it?14:43
chem|stexactly14:43
Venemok14:43
chem|stif the device gets a DHCP hostname it will use that instead of /etc/hostname14:43
Venemoheh14:44
chem|stthink there needs to be some hacking of connman be done to change that behaviour14:44
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Venemoah, works14:45
Venemoviq: you script works too14:45
Venemothanks :)14:45
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stezzpvuorela: I found out that we have a DAY VIEW in calendar14:59
stezzI have shown it to VDVsx and the other guys here15:00
stezzand they were all : WOW! Amazing! Never seen that!15:00
stezzjust wondering… are you aware of it ? Because it seems to need a LOT of love :D15:00
stezzI guess I am writing on the wrong channel ...15:00
Yanielit does15:01
stezz:/15:01
Yanielif you mean the day-by-hour view15:01
stezzYaniel: yeah I meant that15:01
Yanielit feels really promising though15:01
Venemostezz: where's that day view?15:02
stezzI won't tell now otherwise you will open bugs :D15:02
Venemostezz: "go to today" will only go to today on the month view15:02
YanielVenemo: try poking around, might be worth an issue on tjc15:03
HarhaanJohtajapress today15:03
ggabrielVenemo: click on "today" :P15:03
ggabriels/click/tap/15:03
Venemoman, I would NEVER have found that by myself15:03
Yanielit's quite sneaky15:03
YanielI found it by accident15:03
Yanielbecause the last thing that label looks like is something clickable15:04
Venemo+115:04
stezzVenemo: I have been using this phone for 6 months and I found out yesterday ...15:04
ggabrieli found it because stezz mentioned it15:04
ggabrieland i played zelda15:04
Tofewow15:04
w00tstezz: to be fair I don't think it existed six months ago :D15:05
Venemostezz: wow. I suggest putting a link to this page to the pulley menu15:05
Venemobut yes, generally, this is the bad thing about every minimalist UI - you can never know what's clickable :D15:05
leinirs/minimalist/flat/15:06
stezzVenemo: Yeah I would suggest the same :)15:06
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leinirbut yes, that's quite useful :)15:06
Venemostezz: I know you probably heard this from me already, but please tell me that the email client is getting some love!15:07
stezzYes it is15:07
Venemoalso please follow the "release early, release often" model15:07
stezz(actually all the apps are constantly improving, not only email)15:07
VenemoI would welcome an update to the email client, even if it fixes only one of the bugs15:08
stezzI thought that having released 2 updates in one month was living up to that standard ;)15:08
Pnuu:-)15:08
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Venemowell, those were 2 "big" updates and it was VERY nice stezz :)15:08
ggabrieli want an update for my birthday please15:08
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Venemostezz: but phaeron and the other guys explained to me that the Jolla apps can be (and are) updated independently of the OS. so there's nothing stopping you from releasing a new version of the email client every day as a new bugfix is implemented15:09
Venemook, every day is a bit too hard maybe15:09
stezzVenemo: we need to do some testing Venemo, we are not cowboys :D15:09
ggabriel...unless it has a dependency with a OS component?15:09
Venemostezz: sure, I understand! but yes, you are cowboys!15:10
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w00tyeeee haw15:11
Venemostezz: for me, the most frustrating thing right now is that I can't reply to any mailing list with the Jolla email client. but there're so many bugs in it that I'd welcome an update even if it just fixes one bug15:11
* w00t puts a saddle on Venemo and rides off into the sunset15:11
Tofecowmunity boys ?15:11
Venemow00t: am I a horse?15:11
w00tVenemo: hey, if we're cowboys, we have to have something to ride :p15:11
stezzLots of things are being fixed, I think that for the good of everyone we sync still for a couple of updates the app schedule with the OS schedule15:12
ggabrielw00t: do you have sunsets right now? :)15:12
Venemow00t: I thought you have small boats for that :P15:12
stezzfor the reason that ggabriel pointed out15:12
Tofeggabriel: I guess it was an hour ago...15:12
Venemostezz: okay! thanks for the hard work :)15:12
stezzVenemo: it was 10 euros for the consultation ;)15:13
ggabrielTofe: hehe, ok, not so north then15:13
Venemostezz: what consultation?15:13
stezzthe one I just gave you15:13
Venemoyou are very funny :)15:13
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Venemostezz: but I'm giving you something better than 10 euros. in fact, go to the store and download my app :P15:14
stezzOk, we can consider it even. This time. ;)15:14
Venemostezz: it's got 1503 downloads so far, so you still owe me 15020 € worth of consultations15:16
stezzI haven't signed any agreement… have I :D15:16
Venemo:P15:17
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Venemostezz: on a more serious note though, I truly recommend trying the app :)15:18
stezzwhat app?15:18
stezz(no jokes :) )15:18
Triztis there any hack to get the alien dalkvik to continue to run application while phone is standby?15:18
Venemostezz: it's called Puzzle Master15:19
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Venemostezz: you can find it in games / puzzles15:22
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* ggabriel observes as how we lose stezz's interest in jolla and dedicates his life to playing puzzle master15:25
liarcan somebody with a jolla phone help me test a few things? (execute a few commands)15:26
ggabrielliar: yeah, go on15:26
FiSHBoYshould you really trust someone named liar? ;)15:27
ggabrieli'm not executing blindly FiSHBoY ;)15:27
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FiSHBoYhehe15:27
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krnlyngFiSHBoY: only non destructive commands and if something breaks anyways i would help getting the device back to the original state :)15:32
Venemonon-destructive commands like su - -c 'rm -rf /' ? :P15:33
Tofesome tr piping would make it more trustable, of course15:33
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zbenjamini'm wondering when the next update will be released ;)15:53
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zbenjaminanyone has any informations about that?15:53
Venemosoon™15:54
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zbenjaminWhen Its Done™15:54
ggabrielzbenjamin: i trust for my birthday15:54
zbenjaminggabriel: when is your birthday?15:55
ggabrielclose to the end of this month :)15:55
Venemoggabriel: when's your birthday?15:55
zbenjaminok so i trust in your birthday too ;)15:55
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ggabrielaltho technically i did say that i wouldn't have any further birthday for 5 years, so maybe not15:55
zbenjaminggabriel: reaching 30 ? ;)15:56
ggabrielzbenjamin: nope, well over it15:56
ggabrielbut i look younger15:56
zbenjaminof course ;) we all do15:56
ggabrieland one cab driver asked my age and was so surprised that almost crashes15:56
ggabrielso, for my safety, i'll wait 5 years and continue counting15:56
ggabrielnb: most get surprised, only one almost crashes :P15:57
ggabriel(as in, they are not all bad)15:57
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zbenjaminlol, last time someone guessed my age i was like 9 years younger. But a guy standing right there too was guessed 6 yeears older than he actually was15:58
zbenjamingood day for me ;)15:58
zbenjaminsorry they guessed me 9 years younger15:58
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Venemoggabriel: ok, so when's your birthday? mine is 22nd january15:58
ggabrielVenemo: 21st15:58
Venemo_jnice15:58
ggabrielzbenjamin: that's fun unless they don't let you in a club because they think that you're <1815:59
ggabrieland in fact you're 2715:59
zbenjaminna even when 9 years younger i would still be oder than 18 :(15:59
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Venemo_jggabriel: so how old're ya?15:59
zbenjamindamn i'm old15:59
ggabrielVenemo_j: 3515:59
ggabrielzbenjamin: yup, passed that threashold too15:59
Venemo_jggabriel: ah, congrats! :)15:59
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ggabrielVenemo_j: why congrats? :)16:00
Venemoggabriel: for your birthday (which almost coincides with mine)16:00
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ggabrielVenemo: :)16:00
SK_Jollatest16:00
Venemo_jhey SK_Jolla16:01
zbenjaminSK_Jolla: test failed16:01
Venemo_jlol16:01
ggabrielXBOX Sign Out16:01
ggabrieloh, it doesn't work here16:01
zbenjaminggabriel: all your savegames are deleted ....16:02
zbenjamin....16:02
zbenjamindone16:02
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zbenjamin;)16:02
stephghappy friday everyone16:02
zbenjaminaaa yeah its friday16:02
stephg\o.16:02
stephg\o/ even16:02
ggabrielhappy friday indeed16:03
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zbenjaminstephg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi00ykRg_5c16:04
stephgoh god not again16:04
zbenjaminstephg: haha ;)16:04
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zbenjaminits the death metal version, much more fun imho16:05
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pawkyAm I the only one thinking the rattling volume button gives the phone a bit of a cheepish feeling, even though everything is pretty solid? :-(16:28
pawky(cheapish)16:28
ggabrielpawky: agree, the rocker seems flaky16:28
pawkyggabriel, I wish one could open the phone up and fix it...16:29
ggabrielpower button too16:29
ggabrielpawky: you can :)16:29
ggabrielnot sure that's fixable tho16:29
pawkyggabriel, the power button is firm on mine...16:29
ggabrielthey are rubber buttons apparently16:29
pawkyrubber?16:29
pawkyinside you mean16:29
ggabrielpawky: my power button is firmer than the volume rocker, let's put it that way16:29
ggabrielpawky: yup, inside16:29
ggabrielwell, somebody reported thta16:29
ggabrieli didn't open mine16:29
pawkyDo I get it right, wether they are firm or not is a batch issue?16:30
ggabrielpawky: maybe, i haven't seen any other jolla16:30
ggabrieland this is hard to see in a video too16:31
pawkyggabriel: tre..16:31
pawkyggabriel: true...16:31
ggabrieli'm not too worried aobut that though16:31
pawkyggabriel: me neither, but as you know, everybody wants to see, feel and touch on demoes....16:31
ggabriel"can I SEE? with my hands??"16:32
ggabriel:)16:32
ggabrielthat's the only good thing that samsung did16:32
ggabriela commercial taking the piss of apple16:32
pawkyMicrosoft, with its .... exchange can enforce having control over your mobile to be able to erase it etc (big brother style) would you come in unfavour of your company, will this work if using an android exchange client? or could one just walk home laughing? :-)16:33
pawkyhighly hypothetically speaking that is.... :-D16:34
SpeedEvilNote that that may lead to you no-longer being employed.16:34
SpeedEvilSecure erasing of devices you may access corporate data from does actually have a point.16:34
pawkySpaedEvil, my laughing you mean? :-D16:34
pawkySpeedEvil, no it does NOT...16:35
pawkyits totally pointless16:35
pawkyexcept for big brother 'we don't trust you, but do trust us' style...16:35
SpeedEvilRefuse to use your own phone for work.16:35
SpeedEvilProblem solved.16:35
pawkySpeedEvil, this is a hypothetical question... of course in real life i have already worked around this....16:35
SpeedEvilCompanies may be legally required to take such measures.16:35
pawkySpeedEvil, I highly doubt it....  legally speaking...16:36
ggabrielhehe "may"16:36
pawky"Hi, we trust you to have this data, but we  do not trust you being able to acutally handle it.... thus we enforce an erase function"..... eehh...16:37
pawkystupidity at best in my point of view...16:37
pawkyactually anybody sending anything secret using E-mail must be rather stupid in the first place...16:37
pawkyE-mail.... come on....16:38
SpeedEvilhttp://www.techrepublic.com/article/what-the-sarbanes-oxley-act-means-for-it-managers/16:38
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ggabrieldepends on the level of confidentiality16:38
SpeedEvilFor example, as one law that affects email16:38
ggabrielfwiw, email goes encrypted these days by default16:38
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walokratransfers yes, content no16:39
pawkySpeedEvil.... ehhh... I am talking about a DEMOCRATIC country....16:39
pawkySpeedEvil, or I mean a country with democracy.... to be more correct... not the States....16:39
walokras-oxley affects also other countries if you work in usa/canada company16:40
tevelike sweden (FRA)?16:40
pawkyggabriel... until they reach your little inbox...16:40
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ggabrielpawky: what's wrong with my inbox?16:41
ggabrielit's probably one of the mostly secured out there16:41
ggabrielerm most secure even16:41
pawkyggbabriel, but its not the wire tapping i am refering to, but rather the totally impossibility for most people to actually verify the sender, is who they say they are..16:41
pawkyggabriel: no encryption there...16:41
ggabrielwell, one day i'll do disk encryption16:41
ggabrielbut otherwise my imap access is encrypted16:41
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ggabrieland so far nobody has broken in and stolen data so gg16:41
SpeedEvilpawky: There are all sorts of legal requirements on companies. SO is by far not the only one. Your thoughts on the sensibility of email as a buisness device do not mean that the law agrees with you.16:42
SpeedEvilNor does your violation (supposed) of corporate IT policy mean that that is not legitimate grounds for disciplinary action.16:42
pawkySpeedEvil, well none that will enforce them having to erase your phone...16:42
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pawkySpeedEvil, but of course they would very much like to.... but thats different16:43
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* ggabriel agrees that the best thing to do is to have separate work and personal phone16:44
pawkySpeedEvil: Security cannot be built upon an idea having to erase things after the information is sent.16:44
pawkyggabriel: normally that is a good thing, until they enforce you to have a certain type of phone...16:44
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pawkyggabriel: I have of course already solved this matter, but my question was, what will happen if an android exchange client wants to erase a phone, and also is the Jolla phone this .... erase blaha... compliant?16:46
ggabrielpawky: they gave me an iphone, at least i can complain about it with good reason :)16:46
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ggabrielpawky: can they actually do that? an application having access to the full phone?16:46
pawkyggabriel: i second that.... they wanted to do the same with me....16:46
pawkyggabriel: I just smiled and made a work around...16:46
pawkyggabriel: of course fully "company  policy compliant" :-)16:47
pawkyBut, what I am fishing for, is wether the phone is this remote control compliant, or not... and what actually happens when running an exchange client in the alien dalvik that would get a factory reset request..16:48
slatewhy to run exchange on android-box?16:49
walokrabecause jolla isn't exchange security policy compliant16:49
slatetweak your server16:49
slate:D16:49
walokrabut neither is exchange in android-box or at least k-9 didn't work16:49
walokratweak my corporate server, yep :)16:50
pawkyslate: could be to circumwent EAS policy enforcement16:50
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mordhmhm. the remote-wipe -capable device manager role seems to actually be required for exchange compliance16:50
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pawkymord: so... is the Jolla phone actually compliant?...16:51
slatewalokra: hehe ;)16:51
walokranot yet16:51
slateUnderstood.16:51
pawkyGREAT! :-D16:51
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SpeedEvilpawky: The problem with 'security cannot' - is that you can actually be put in jail in some cases for not complying with these sort of policies.16:51
pawkyslate: and what would a remote wipe instructin lead to when running an android client?16:51
SpeedEvilpawky: Arguing technical facts does not change the law.16:51
pawkySpeedEvil: you can be put in jail for nothing, ask the americans... but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right16:52
walokrai think the aliendalvik isn't compliant either16:52
pawkywalokra: thats what I am suspecting as well... :-)16:52
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walokraas doesn't it use the underlying features and if sailfish can't do it then...16:53
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pawkySpeedEvil: exactly what law enforces you to have a remote wipeable device? I haven't heard of one yet... i believe in the end you shouldn't have sensitive information upon something you would have to do remote wipes upon in the first place...16:54
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pawkySpeedEvil: There are laws though restricting where sensitive data should be stored upon, backed up yada, yada...16:55
SpeedEvilThe legal requirements are largely on companies, as I understand it. If you're not in charge, then the worst that will generally happen is being fired.16:55
pawkySpeedEvil: exactly :-)16:56
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pawkybut, to all in here, i am not conspiring upon something, i am just wondering about the EAS compliance policy and remote wipe wise, as Jolla does have an exchange client, and i believe one could download it for android as well... :-)16:58
ggabrielpawky: too late, the helicopters should be there soon16:59
pawkyggabriel: "Run Forrest, Run!" :-)16:59
SpeedEvilpawky: For example - under the data protection act in the UK - and EU countries - companies are under an obligation to handle personally identifiable information in a secure manner. What 'secure' means is debatable - but if you are holding unencrypted emails on a buisness device, you need to be able to wipe that data.And yes, I'm aware that storing data unencrypted is bad anyway. Not having such a corporate policy could lead to prosecution17:01
SpeedEvilunder the act.17:01
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netzviehSpeedEvil: so BYOD is dead then? because it's not compliant?17:02
SpeedEvilnetzvieh: Well - if you're willing to have your device wiped - it works just fine.17:03
netzviehso its basically BYODWCBWR?17:04
netzviehwhich can be wiped remot...ly17:04
netzviehhow the hell does one spell that?17:04
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netzviehah with an e *remotely17:05
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netzviehhmm. would it be sufficient to force all employees to encrypt their phone?17:08
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pawkySpeedEvil: keeping secure personally identifiable data on a phone, must be a violation of this data protection act in the first place, using E-mail to send it must be even worse...17:10
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pawkySpeedEvil: i believe, keeping person identifiable data on a phone could lead to prosecution...17:11
netzviehpawky: in germany it's allowed to send PID via email, as long as the mail is encrypted17:13
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pawkynetsvieh: there goes security....17:14
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netzviehsecurity is a lie :)17:19
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Venemo_jhey :)18:40
Pnuuevening18:41
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clauo/18:47
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Quuherp18:48
Quunew battery, day 1: 0 shutdowns18:49
Pnuu:-)18:49
Venemo_jhad an awesome match of tennis :)18:49
Venemo_jQuu: where did you get a new battery?18:49
Quuatleast one of Jolla happens to live in this city18:50
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Quudont want to hilight him :)18:50
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Venemo_jQuu: which city?18:54
Quujyväskylä18:54
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Venemo_jQuu I'm dumb, haven't heard of it :(18:57
Quumiddle of finland18:57
Quu~7th largest "city" in finland, not even city according to EU-standards18:58
Pnuuno, in middle of central finland, but far from middle of finland :-D18:58
fk_lxQuu: number of inhabitants?18:58
Venemo_jOkay :)18:58
Pnuu(and the middle-point of central finland is uurainen)18:58
Quuhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyv%C3%A4skyl%C3%A418:58
ggabrielQuu: what eu standards? in the uk you're a city if you have a cathedral :P18:58
Pnuuthousand lakes rally, matti nykänen, jyp, ...18:59
Pnuuggabriel: in finland it's nowadays enough that the municipality says "ok, now we are a city"18:59
frieseawh, jyväskylä, been there two times, it's slowly getting time for the third :)18:59
PnuuI went to highschool in jyväskylä19:00
ottuloPnuu: doesn't it require certain public services to be called a city?19:00
ottulolike a hospital19:00
frieseiirc they have one, yes19:00
tuomasjjrasanenI'm from Jyväskylä too!19:01
Quuok, time to schedule Jolla meeting then19:02
Quulol19:02
clauit looks nice though (the city)19:02
friesethe view with the lake, the bridge and that little island they had there, yeah quite nice19:03
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Quuyeah, Kuokkalan silta, also known as "bridge of death" at winter19:04
clauall cities are like that, they have a small beautiful part and everything else looks like a post-apocalyptic cheap movie.19:04
FireFlyQuu: why the name?19:04
clau"bridge of death" at winter19:05
clauhmm19:05
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frieseokay, i probably haven't been to the bad parts of jyväskylä, but it looked quite nice overall. sure, some flat-districts, but not that bad...19:05
QuuFireFly: its long and rises nicely over the lake19:05
Quu-25c, hard winds19:05
FireFlyOh, ouch19:05
Quui cant english19:05
Quubut yeah, anyway19:05
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frieseQuu: what was the name of that little uninhabited island there exactly? i know there was some funny story there as well...19:06
Quufriese: no idea what island you mean :)19:06
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clau"Ah, God," says Bokonon, "what an ugly city every city is."19:07
clauobviously, he wasn't a big fan of cities.19:07
clau(it's from Cat's Cradle, Vonnegut)19:09
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friesehumm, guess im going crazy then, can't seem to find that island on here satellite-view...19:11
tuomasjjrasanenfriese: hmm.. do you mean Lehtisaari?19:11
tuomasjjrasanenhttp://www.lehtisaarenkesakoti.net/historia/19:11
Quutuomasjjrasanen: but its not uninhabited19:11
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Quuiirc.19:12
frieseclosest thing i can see is that place between slitakatu and suuruspääntje, maybe it looked uninhabited to me because of the many trees....19:13
tuomasjjrasanenQuu: well, there's a building for summer activities but no one lives there19:13
Quufriese: that place is some sort of errrh19:13
Quuplace for abused women and their kids19:13
frieseehrm okay, didn't know that19:14
Quubut it might have been lehtisaari like tuomasjjrasanen said19:14
friesewell, thats quite some kilometers away from jyväskylä (if here found the right one)19:16
netzviehis there is builtin software way to reboot the jolla?19:17
Pnuudevel-su reboot19:17
frieseah okay, found another lehtisaari far nearer, which here strangely didn't list... yeah, that could also be it...19:18
Quushutdown -r now19:18
Quu:p19:18
netzviehbut no gui way atm?19:18
Pnuunetzvieh: power button? :-P19:18
HarhaanJohtajathere is now an pplication in the store19:19
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HarhaanJohtajaSailfishReboot19:19
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netzviehreboot & shutdwon -r should do the same :D they did in SysVinit times iirc :D19:20
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netzviehPnuu: yeah, but I usually try not to use that19:20
Quu"reboot" didnt work for me19:20
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netzviehHarhaanJohtaja: yep, I saw the app, but I thought there would be a builtin way19:21
netzviehQuu: as root it worked here19:21
Quuok, maybe wasnt root then19:21
Stskeepshttp://stezz.blogspot.com/2014/01/a-journey-of-year-more-or-less.html19:21
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slateStskeeps: nice19:24
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Pnuuyay, I'm in that tjc screenshot :-D19:28
QuuStskeeps: good info about stuffs there :)19:28
slatewas the original shipping date given before or after you guys decided to dump x11 and qt4.8 or after? :)19:28
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attahStskeeps: I envy you guys! Experiences like this is what makes like worthwhile.19:32
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netzvieh"Ah and we released 2 updates and 1 hotfix in 1 month, more than most of the devices out there will ever get in their lifetime. " Truth to be told!19:34
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ggabrieli recommend agasint tapas in barcelona19:38
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Tofeggabriel: depends where!19:43
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ggabrielTofe: where do you suggest? i did go to a few places, and proper restaurants were the best19:44
ggabrielnot sure tapas originated in catalunya anyway, more of a traditional spanish thing19:44
ggabrieli do know that barcelona is in spain, but the tradition comes from where it wasn't19:44
Tofeggabriel: well, the problem is I've not been in Barcelona for a couple of years, and I went there only for a week or so each time. I did eat marvelous tapas, though, several times.19:45
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ggabrielyeah, i'm not saying they're bad19:45
Tofeggabriel: but I'm saying I forgot where I ate them :)19:45
ggabrieli'm saying that the restaurant experience with ham, wine, stew was a lot better19:45
ggabrieli felt like tapas was a kind touristic thing, even tho locals suggested it19:45
ggabrielalso, overpriced19:45
Tofeggabriel: could well be so, you seem to have more experience than me on that topic19:46
ggabrielok, i'm testing bluetooth audio, a bit low in volume me thinks19:46
ggabrielTofe: i like my food :)19:47
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AL13Nhuh19:51
AL13Nwell, i've been prepared of course19:51
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AL13Nbut after using it for a bit (no SIM in it yet), i only have a few minor annoyances: the native apps aren't visible in listing, no belgian azerty keyb, wlan password fail needs to turn off/on wlan, the accidental device lock19:55
AL13Nbut all in all, this is a very nice phone19:55
AL13Nthe browser isn't even half bad either19:56
* AL13N like19:56
ggabrielAL13N: :)19:56
ggabrielyou aren't telling us anything new19:57
ggabrielwhich is good19:57
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cvphello :)19:58
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ggabrielright... today i learned that nfc-to-pair-bluetooth devices is not as simple as i thought19:58
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cvpthan make it easyer19:59
cvp;)19:59
ggabrielno, it's good19:59
ggabrielit's kinda "secure"19:59
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cvpis it possible to read the nfc sticker from toh + edit and write it back ?20:01
ggabrielit's unlocked, most of it20:01
ggabriellet me check again20:01
cvpyou have an nfc reader/writer ?20:02
ggabrielcvp: yeah, everything is unlocked20:03
ggabrielyou can't alter hte id of course20:03
ggabrielcvp: yup, a tikitag :D20:03
ggabrieli actually spent most of today resetting it up, getting all the tools and so on20:03
cvpis the information inside big ?20:03
ggabriela lot of fun20:03
ggabrielcvp: there is nothing... jolla uses the id afaik20:03
cvpcan you copy past in pastabin ?20:04
ggabrielactually, uhm, maybe you can even change the id20:04
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Pnuupastabin, a special italian trashbin20:06
ggabrielcvp: http://pastebin.com/9CdJBM5Q20:06
ggabrieli masked the id20:06
ggabrieland there is some data in blocks 2-520:07
ggabrielnot sure what that is20:07
cvpi think all toh have the same information20:07
cvpggabriel: thanks20:07
ggabrieli tried to look for the chap who posted in tmo too20:08
ggabrielbut couldn't find it quickly20:08
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cvpyeah i bouth it an palm charger... hard to find in second hand20:11
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attahping tanghus_20:21
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cvpgive it a irc client for sailfish ?20:28
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Stskeepsso how is everybody?20:35
cvp?20:36
Stskeeps:P20:37
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attahFor the record: pretty good :) Most of the background work is done for a upcoming album art app.20:38
Stskeepscool20:39
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PnuuStskeeps: beer and bowmore20:39
attahi.e. no code yet.. but I have the how-to pretty much nailed down20:39
cvpnice20:39
specialcoffee and too much work.20:39
w00ttoo little coffee and alcohol and too much code I don't understand20:40
attahw00t: +120:40
specialwhat's a friday without coffee and alcohol? :<20:40
w00tspecial: a monday20:40
Pnuuspecial: sunday?20:41
Pnuu:-D20:41
slatea family night?20:41
slate;)20:41
Stskeepsf..amily?20:42
ottulospecial: my friday20:42
ottuloalthough the latter can be negociated20:42
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Quuwhiskey20:47
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Quuin the jar20:47
ottulonot dirt?20:47
Quunah, work tomorrow, cant do dirt today20:48
attah /rofl20:48
netzviehcvp: there should be at least one irc client for sailfish, pretty sure there are more ;) & "gibt es" = "is there" ;)20:48
cvpyeah my english are bad :D20:49
cvpaber danke ;)20:49
cvpis bad :p20:49
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pawkyNow this is a bit on the odd side... yesterday I got an update message, and updated to 1.0.2.5, which I did... and today I get an update message to 1.0.2.5 again!  what on earth is going on?20:55
teveits "normal"20:56
netzviehpawky: it wants to show its titties again :P20:56
pawkynetzvieh: great! :-)20:57
pawkynetzvieh, just don't tell my gf I am watching someone elses ... ...20:57
specialpawky: it'll be fixed in the next update to the store client, I believe20:57
pawkyspecial: I am doing the update.. I hope that was a good choice...20:58
pawkywhen at it, the google play store, suddenly went away, and i had to reinstall it... is it me, or my phone?....20:59
Pnuuhow many guesses I can use?-)20:59
attahpawky.. happened to me too.. but it has worked fine since re-installing20:59
Quupawky: when that happens, reboot (or restarting the alien-dalvik.service (or whatever)) helps20:59
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pawkyQuu, attah did a bit of both.... reinstalled, then i lost internet connection for good... rebooted, everything is fine again.... until it told me I also had to update the phone again to 1.0.2.5... now i installed it as well.. hope it will boot ;-)21:01
attahhaha :)21:01
Quuwell, reinstalling is bit "harder" as you need to remember commands21:01
attahBtw.. Is it some EU regulation that made jolla have that volume pop-down? And can i get rid of it?21:02
Quu.. or press up arrow on keyboard21:02
Quuvolume pop-down?21:02
attahadjusting the volume above ~70% in the media player displays a warning21:02
specialattah: yes, there are regulatory requirements for volume warning dialogs in quite a few places21:02
pawkyQuu: nah, i just installed the google appstore, and it worked again..  that part was fairly easy, exept for me being a bit bewildered and wondering how stable the OS actually is at the moment...21:03
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attahbut what if my headphones aren't even especially loud when i get it?21:03
specialattah: then you must already be deaf ;)21:03
pawkyBut is the update, correct and having some bug fixes? or does it just reinstall the same 1.0.2.5?21:03
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attahspecial: oh shit!21:04
Pnuupawky: my guess is, it does nothing21:04
specialpawky: same version number == no changes21:04
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Pnuuthe funny thing is, I haven't seen that re-appearance at all :-P21:04
pawkywell, it reinstalled and booted nicely.... I presume i will have to do that mask tehd stuff again though to not drain the battery... right?21:04
pawkyspecial: thought there might be some minor changes under the radar...21:05
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Quupawky: you can pkcon/zypper and see what it installs ;)21:05
Quuor tries to install21:05
Quuor something.21:05
Quui cant words today21:05
specialpawky: nope. That version number bumps itself every time we touch anything.21:05
pawkyThis Alien Dalvik stuff really rocks... installed google sky... a bit worried it seems to read the orientation a bit wrong as now it will show the polar star being at the horizon, and.... well.... i am quite far away from the equator....21:06
pawkyspecial. How about "no tuchy, tuchy?" ;-)21:06
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slatepawky: no gyro support21:08
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pawkyslate: well... it seems to, as it does things when i rotate the phone, are you sure?21:08
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pawkyslate: oh... so thats just the compass then?21:09
slateaccelerometer is supported, dunno if it uses that21:10
slateand magnetometer21:10
slategyro would read the phones orientation based on earths gravity21:11
slateits supported in sailfish but not yet in alien dalvik21:11
pawkyslate: well, i presume i am levitating then, considering the polar star position.... ;-21:12
meShellany qt hero here?21:13
pawkywow... this is cool, i get a "system update available" when I start  google sky... :-)21:13
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pawkyMeShell, i think I got both qt, and hero maps in my phone... so there they are... ;-)21:14
pawkymeShell: couldne't help myself... :-D21:15
netzviehmeShell: prob. in #qt or #sailfishos?21:16
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meShelllol OK maybe that's enough ... I got this stupid QT-Error now on 2 different systems, first on OpenSUSE, then NOT on Ubuntu and now again on SailfishOS SDK: http://pastebin.com/0t5NQP0N21:16
meShellah #qt good idea21:16
pawky:-)21:16
meShellit "may" have to do something with glib ... but mabye I would have to recompile qt qithout glib ... but would be cool to find someone who knows what is is21:17
netzviehbut osunds like glib yes21:19
specialmeShell: what are you trying to build..?21:19
meShellqt platform plugin21:21
meShelllibQt5PlatformSupport.a(qeventdispatcher_glib.o)21:21
specialyes, why?21:21
specialare you trying to do a custom build of Qt for sailfish, or?21:21
meShellwanted something "special" ... trying to find out if SailfishOS supports qt platform plugin for qt apps .21:22
dekisssomeone want to make 2000$ for 2 mobil apps that are so simple they can bedone in 2 hours message me .21:23
meShellok I am preparing for around q2 this year ... you want to know details?21:23
specialmeShell: the wayland QPA plugin is used for all applications21:23
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meShellis it possible to launch sailfish qt apps with -plaform xyz?21:24
meShelldidn't try it, was trying to compile before trying that21:25
specialprobably21:25
meShellcool21:25
specialyou'll find QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland in the default environment, that's how it's choosing a plugin now21:25
specialbut obviously one couldn't change that and still expect to have wayland windows, so I'm still unclear on what you're actually doing21:26
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meShellhehe21:26
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meShellI wouldn't need any wayland window then ... think like weston21:26
specialyou might find it interesting to look at lipstick21:27
speciallipstick is the wayland compositor, uses a different platform to render to a framebuffer or something similar (depending on what target you're discussing)21:28
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slatehmm, new directory in home/ called deploy. Created last night. Inside that a dir called installroot with bunch of subdirs21:30
slatenormal?21:30
meShell@special: did you see my query?21:30
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meShellwill have a look at lipstick ... I know I read the word in the past somewhere ....21:32
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slateAll sensors seen on alien dalvik side are vendored by Myriad Group, so its not raw data but emulated?21:51
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SpeedEvilThe vendor IDs are generally rather bogus.21:58
SpeedEvilWhat they actually mean is what the android driver reports them as21:58
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Tatuusthe next update takes us forward from beta phase? what 'cha think22:04
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slatewhy should it?22:04
bennypr0fane who can tell me how to move files between folders? can I do that in a GUI?22:05
bennypr0faneI have ambience background pics saved on the sdcard, but they don't show up in the Gallery22:06
Yanielbennypr0fane: get Cargo Dock from the app store22:06
bennypr0faneI suspect I'd need to move them to internal storage22:06
bennypr0fane?22:06
bennypr0faneYaniel, is it native?22:06
Yanielstuff might not show up in gallery / media player immediately as tracker takes some time to index the file system22:06
Yanielbennypr0fane: yes22:07
Yanielthe best file manager for sailfish I know of22:07
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bennypr0faneafaik there is only one, plus this one you just told me about22:07
Yanielthere is one I never tried, jolla-fileman and cargodock22:08
FireFlythere's a jolla one in the repos (not the shop)22:08
bennypr0faneso you mean the images should show in Gallery after a while, even if they're on sdcard?22:08
ottulojolla-fileman has the benefit that you can install apk and rpm directly through there22:08
FireFlyYaniel: the one you didn't try being the one in the shop?22:09
ottulobut that's pretty much all there is apart from browsing22:09
bennypr0faneFireFly, Yaniel I ahve jolla-fileman installed, it's a huge diappointment22:09
FireFlyI kinda liked that one after it got updated a bit22:09
FireFlylike*22:09
YanielFireFly: yeah22:09
bennypr0faneit doesn't have copy/paste/move features22:09
FireFly"File Browser" by "Kari"22:09
FireFly↑ that one is nice IMO22:09
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bennypr0faneall you can do is open files and make bookmarks in jolla-fileman22:10
Yanielyeah I'm guessing that is the reason why jolla-fileman is not in the store (yet)22:10
bennypr0faneand file browser is the same22:10
FireFlybennypr0fane: it does have cut/copy/paste, at least the latest version22:10
YanielFireFly: I'll take a look22:10
bennypr0faneit literally lets you just browse them22:10
FireFlyAn earlier version didn't, which sucked22:10
Yanielbennypr0fane: try cargodock22:10
Yanielor mv in the terminal if you know how to use that22:10
bennypr0faneFireFly, which version exactly?22:10
FireFlybennypr0fane: long-press on a dictionary, and check in shop if it's up-to-date22:11
bennypr0faneYaniel, I'm about to22:11
FireFly"Version 1.3" says About22:11
bennypr0fanedictionary?22:11
FireFlyWell, or file I guess22:11
FireFlyeh, directory22:11
* FireFly blames tiredness22:11
FireFlyApart from browsing the system tree and cut/copy/paste, it also seems to do xdg-open and "view as hexdump -C output". good enough for a start22:12
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bennypr0faneFirefly, I don't get it. I check my version number how?22:16
FireFlyIn the pulley menu there's an 'About' all the way to the top22:16
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bennypr0fanein jolla-fileman or in cargodock?22:16
FireFlyeh, I meant in "File browser", the one in the shop22:17
bennypr0faneaaaah22:17
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FireFlyhttp://i.imgur.com/y5qo5PF.jpg22:17
bennypr0faneso it made progress22:17
bennypr0fanecool22:17
bennypr0fanethe store has been more populated I see22:17
bennypr0fanethings starting to move22:18
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bennypr0faneI'm waiting for that larger wave of Meego apps to arrive22:18
bennypr0fanewell in this case jolla-fileman is pretty unnecessary for now22:19
Yanielyay, the earphones for my jolla arrived \o/22:19
bennypr0fanewhat kind?22:19
FireFlyLol, nice creation date for those dirs.. 197022:20
attahbtw.. anyone knows how it does file access? qfile is not allowed right?22:20
attahFireFly: Start of Unix time22:21
FireFlyYeah, I know22:21
FireFlyhttps://github.com/karip/harbour-file-browser is the source code if you want to investigate, btw22:21
FireFlyhow it does it22:21
attahthx!22:22
Yanielbennypr0fane: sony xba-h122:22
Yanielas a nice side effect, the colour of the cable matches the poppy red TOH nicely ;D22:23
Yanielactually the entire device22:23
Yanielone side black, the other vermilion22:23
attahYaniel: and how is the sound?22:23
Yanielkinda bassy for my taste, I guess22:24
Yanielbut good anyway22:24
YanielI guess if I'd use these on a plane/train/car it would be just great22:24
attahYaniel: hmm.. okay, sounds to reasonably fit my intended use22:25
Yanielas it does to mine22:26
Yanielhowever they do isolate a lot22:26
attahbut i'm so ridiculously spoiled by by PS500.. so i'm afraid i won't like anything else.. even if it's just for travelling and so on22:26
Yanielso if your ears are overly sensitive to pressure that might be bad22:27
attahi think that should be ok :)22:27
Yanielthe ps500 (grado?) look a bit too large to casually slip on on the bus ;)22:28
attahyes, grado :) indeed, and that's why I'm looking for iems22:28
bennypr0faneyaniel, I still don't see those pics in Gallery. are you sure they can be seen on sdcard?22:29
bennypr0fanealso there in the android folder22:29
Yanielbennypr0fane: where are they on the sd card?22:29
bennypr0fane*they are22:29
YanielI have pics on the sd card and they show up just fine22:29
Yaniel(some photos I carried over from my previous phone)22:29
attahbennypr0fane.. i have one pic in the root of my sdcard.. it shows fine22:29
bennypr0faneI don't quite understand this file system yet. it's a huge maze22:30
attahand you are sure it is really the sdcard you are putting then on?22:30
Yanielit's not that bad22:30
attah /run/user/100000/media/sdcard/22:30
attahnot that bad eh?22:30
FireFlybennypr0fane: if you happen to be using a non-vfat filesystem for the SD card, I found that manually mounting it doesn't notify the scanner (which makes sense I guess)22:31
bennypr0faneI think the fs is vfat22:31
Yanielattah: I didn't find memorizing that was a problem22:31
FireFlyif it's automounted, it shoudl be22:31
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bennypr0faneattaha I'm actually not sure they're on the card22:32
bennypr0faneI never mounted it manually at least22:32
pdanekDo you know if dirkvl plans to sell/send some keyboard-halfs to donators later on?22:32
attahYaniel: i know a lot of crazy shit by memory.. but this shall not become one ;)22:32
pdanekOr it's purely only proof of concept?22:32
pawkyWTF.... why doesn't the screen rotate when using the web browser???!!!22:32
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bennypr0fanethey are under something/something/sdcard/Downloads22:32
pawkyI hope this is a bug...22:32
Yanielpawky: NYI22:32
FireFlypawky: yeah, it doesn't support landscape yet unfortunately22:32
pdanekpawky: not a bug, simply not implemented feature yet22:32
Pnuupawky: check tjc22:33
bennypr0fanepawky no landscape mode...22:33
attahbennypr0fane: so what did you do?22:33
FireFlyYaniel: that's a new acronym to me22:33
pawkyPnuu: will do..22:33
YanielFireFly: Not Yet Implemented22:33
FireFlyOh22:33
FireFlyMakes sense22:33
bennypr0faneis there like a graph of the complete fs tree somewhere?22:33
Yaniel`pkcon install tree && cd / && tree` ? ;)22:34
bennypr0fane...and is there a way to go up in the hierarchy in cargo dock?22:34
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FireFlyOoo, `tree` respects LS_COLORS22:35
FireFlypretty22:35
attahg33kpr0n22:36
FireFlybennypr0fane: there's findmnt for printing mountpoints, at least22:36
bennypr0faneYaniel, what is that?22:36
Yanieltree shows... an ascii representation of the fs tree starting from cwd22:37
Yanielor its argument, if provided (iirc)22:37
bennypr0fanecould it be there are two sdcard folders? one under Jolla and one under Android?22:37
Yanielyes22:37
attahthe 'droid one is in the root22:38
bennypr0fanealright,. then my pics are inside the droid one in the sdcard folder22:38
attahthe jolla one is on /run/user/100000/media/sdcard/22:38
bennypr0fanewell the folder named Android is a subdir of /data/sdcard, which is symlinked in /22:40
bennypr0fanewhich means my pics are in /data/sdcard/Downloads - not a subdir of the Android dir22:41
bennypr0fanedoes anyone have stuff in /data/sdcard that yr system can't see?22:41
Yanielwhere does the symlink point to?22:42
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attah*should* the system see stuff there even?22:42
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bennypr0faneYaniel, to /data/sdcard22:44
bennypr0faneattah, I dunno22:44
attahi'd go with "no"22:44
bennypr0fanebut it looks like a dir from userland22:44
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bennypr0fanewhy are there two different sdcard locations anyway?22:44
attahsure.. but far from all are indexed by, say the gallery22:45
bennypr0faneok, Filebrowser is definitely the best we have now22:45
bennypr0faneCargo dock doesn't even let you navigate properly22:46
attahbennypr0fane: android might want one.. and it's practical to have it without requiring a real sd card22:46
attahso it's just a folder and has nothing to do with the actual sd card, if present22:46
bennypr0faneattah but in that case it should be inside the AlienDalvik vm, no?22:46
Yanielokay I have no idea what /data/sdcard is pretending to be22:46
bennypr0faneYaniel are you looking at it?22:47
attah"inside"?22:47
Yanielyeah22:47
attahwell i don't know dalvik22:47
Yanieland all I can tell is that it definitely is not the physical sd card I inserted in the phone22:47
bennypr0faneYaniel strange, right?22:47
Yanielmight be some dalvik stuff22:47
bennypr0faneattah, I meant "under"22:47
attahi just assumed it shared storage.. i have an app that has put stuff there22:47
Yanielput your things in /rin/user/100000/media/sdcard and it should be fine22:47
attah*run22:48
Yanielyes22:48
bennypr0faneis it possible for android apps to place stuff on the physical sdcard?22:48
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attahbennypr0fane.. make a link?22:48
attahi remember reading that someone did22:49
bennypr0faneI downloaded those pics with an Android app, and it actually offered my just the 4 folders in /data/sdcard for a choice22:49
bennypr0fane...to store them in22:49
attahi like the fact that android can't spew it's stuff all over the place22:50
pawkyhas anybody gotten Shazam to work?22:50
bennypr0faneso maybe that's the only part of the file system that Android apps can see22:50
pawkyor will android apps not be able to access hardware features like microphone, camera etc?22:51
attahpawky: through wrappers i think22:51
pawkyattah, so.. any success with Shazam then?22:51
attahoh.. no.. don't even know what that is :)22:52
attahhad a N9 up until now22:52
pawkyattah: it complains aobut resource (microphone i presume) being blocked...22:52
FireFlyI think camera access is enabled in the latest system update22:52
FireFlythe 1.0.2.5 one22:52
attahtrue22:52
attahso mic might be yet to come?22:52
FireFlyNo clue22:52
FireFlyProbably22:52
bennypr0faneI haven't heard about any complete listing of what Alien Dalvik does and does not get access to. I find as beta testers they should let is know22:52
pawkyattah: well its for when you hear that annoying song on the radio, and wants to know what the hell it is, so you can avoid it until kingdom come.... or vise versa...22:52
FireFlybennypr0fane: you could ask on together possibly22:53
bennypr0faneso we can tell which apps it is pointless to try atm22:53
attahpawky.. it usually makes me want to turn off the radio.. but hey.. whatever floats your goat22:53
FireFlypawky: wait, what exactly does it do?22:54
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FireFlyIt shipped with my previous phone (Nokia E7), but I never even started it since it shipped with a whole bunch of other crap I wasn't interested in as well22:54
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pawkyFireFly, it recognizes songs and tellyou what it is, so you can ....acquire them ...22:54
FireFlyOh22:54
FireFlySounds interesting22:54
FireFlyNow I wish I had tried it..22:54
pawkyFireFly it is...22:54
pawkyFireFly, i think SonyEricsson was first with such an app... followed by Shazam22:55
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attahexactly22:55
pawkyFireFly, great for when you hear some cool song on a commercial, and want to hear the whole song, by example22:56
attahand i think musicbrainz has something like it.. so write a native app? ;)22:56
pawkyattah: true, but it isnt as accurate by far, to my experience22:56
attahthat's a shame22:56
bennypr0fanefinally, the pics have landed in my userland22:56
bennypr0fanethese ambiences are amazing22:56
pawkyattah, it might have improved by now though... :-)22:57
attahonly one way to find out :)22:57
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pawkyattah, but I don't believe music brainz will do anything more than scan your MP3's for a mach, not record live stuff, right?22:58
FireFlypawky: does it require an accurate recording, or would it for instance be able to figure things out if I played it on a piano?22:58
pawkyFireFly, i was just going to write about it. No it doesn't22:58
FireFlyAh, okay22:58
attahpawky: well, maybe it was one of the other open places i was researching for the cover art app22:58
FireFlyNow I feel like messing with a program for doing that... it'd be cool22:58
pawkyFireFly:  It doesn't matter so much if you have quite low volume, or if someone talks while your trying to figure it out... at least to my experience.22:59
pawkyFireFly: It is cool...22:59
FireFlyhmm22:59
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pawkywell, the idea is.. i don't like any software that collects info of my personal preferences of music an what have not, but then again it has saved me a few times, so at times one migh be able to compromize ;-)23:00
pawkyFireFly, it makes a fingerprint of music, so i believe it has to be the original recording. But the quality is not of importance... thats why its quite cool23:01
FireFlyHm23:02
pawkyFireFly, you hear it on the TV, you press the scan button, Voila! it will tell you what song you are listening to23:02
FireFlyI'd like to try it with some of the bands I listen to.. I wonder how well it'd do23:02
pawkyFireFly, its a free app, so just grabb your Android.... whatever and start scanning :-)23:02
FireFlyThat assumes I have an android :P23:03
FireFlymy jolla is my first device capable of running android apps23:03
FireFlyI could grab my old phone, but my brother's borrowing it at the moment23:03
FireFlyoh well23:03
pawkyFireFly: I am fairly sure you can also find such an app for Iphone, etc23:03
FireFlythanks for the tip anyway, good to know about23:03
pawkyFireFly: you must own at least a tablet right?23:04
FireFlynope :P23:04
FireFlyAnd no apple devices either23:04
HarhaanJohtajahttps://together.jolla.com/question/3050/soundhound-shazam-like-integrated-app-should-be-cool-for-jolla/23:04
pawkyHarhaanJohtaja:  there you go :-)23:05
pawkyHarhaanJohtaja: The Music Brainz will do it for you, if you want to start coding :-)23:05
FireFlyThat one mentions a verison of Shazam working actually23:05
FireFly(on the jolla, I mean)23:05
attah..on an old version though23:06
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attahmaybe they disabled the mic in the latest patch?23:06
FireFlyOh, hm23:06
pawkyFireFly: Well, Shazam runs without any problems... on my it just cannot access the microphone as it seems locked by some other app, (or the NSA maybe)...23:07
pawkyattah, nah, why would they?23:07
attahpawky: nasty security issues? bugs? i dunno23:07
FireFlyI wouldn't call Shazam without mic functionality "working" :P23:08
specialpawky: attah: a change like that would appear in the changelog.23:08
pawkyattah: I think its a service hardware priority issue...23:08
Turskiwhere are user ambiences stored?23:08
FireFlyspecial: some people would say that about the controversial bootloader locking too :P23:08
pdanekIs there any bitcoin client for Sailfish already where I can buy/sell?23:08
attahspecial: yes, indeed.. thanks for pointing out that i should go to bed :)23:08
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pawkyFireFly, whats conroversial about it?23:09
specialFireFly: haha, point.23:09
pawkyFireFly: what? is the bootloader locked???23:09
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pawkycome on.... no right minded hardware manufacturer would do such a thing would they?23:09
FireFlyYes, temporarily, for user privacy reasons23:09
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FireFlyTemporarily meaning it'll be addressed in a future update23:10
pawkyFireFly: interesting.... but how exactly would that create privacy??23:10
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specialpawky: it's a bad thing if you can access/overwrite the bootloader without the device's security code.23:10
pawkyspecial: how so?23:10
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specialyou can easily compromise the device with nothing but a USB cable?23:10
pawkyspecial: I cannot se any bad thing about it23:11
pawkyspecial: hmm....23:11
FireFlyspecial: imagine if someone steals your company phone in the bar, and is able to extract information from it23:11
FireFlylike mail history or messages or something23:11
FireFlyer23:11
FireFlypawky*23:11
specialthe intent is not and never will be to stop you from modifying your device; but stopping others from modifying your security-code-enabled device is important.23:11
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pawkyspecial: great to hear :-)23:11
pawkyspecial: Ok, so it will only be locked if you have created a security code right?23:12
FireFlyYeah, though unfortunately they didn't mention it in the 1.0.2.5 release notes (which performed the change), which triggered a bit of an outrage :p23:12
specialI believe it's locked in all cases as of the latest update23:12
pawkyI love Jolla, and its product :-D23:12
special(but I don't know the area well at all)23:13
FireFlyIt's locked, but a future update will provide the functionality to unlock it somehow, probably from the developer mode settings panel or something, as I understand it23:13
pawkyFull of right minded people surrounding this hardware :-)23:13
specialwe love you too23:13
pawkyFireFly: well that will do it for me, not that I have to but that I could if  I would23:14
pawkyFreeeedoooom23:14
FireFlyYeah, that's my POV too basically23:15
FireFlyI can imagine myself messing with ARM arch on it if someone does the work to get a multiboot thingy on it23:16
pawkyFireFly: I had my Asus Transforme on a shelf for one year, unopened, until a root option was created...23:16
FireFlythough I also value not voiding the warranty.. darn, tradeoffs..23:16
pawkyFireFly: port from the N900 maybe?23:17
FireFlyPort of what?23:17
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pawkyFireFly: a multi boot option?23:17
FireFlyOh23:17
FireFlyI guess. I'm not going to mess with that though, I don't want to accidentally brick it by messing with things I don't fully understand23:18
special023:18
pawkyFireFly: i believe you can have it on that device, but I never played with it it even if being tempted to23:18
FireFlyI mean, I'm not going to be the one getting it to run. I might install it when someone else has done the tricky part :p23:18
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* FireFly is lazy :|23:18
FireFlyYup, I had uboot and an arch image on the N90023:19
pawkyFireFly: yeah thats what its called23:19
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dschoepespecial: in the case of the stolen phone, nothing short of encrypting the data stored on the phone will help though, since the thief could just disassemble it and read the contents of the memory card directly23:22
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specialdschoepe: yes, of course23:23
dschoepeso how hard it is to circumvent the lockscreen seems unimportant to me in this scenario23:23
special(personally, I really want full disk encryption too.)23:23
dschoepeseconded!23:23
pawkyFireFly: you can have Shazam on quite a few devices http://www.shazam.com/music/web/getshazam.html23:23
FireFlyI'll just wait 'til I get my old phone back, or the mic works on jolla :-)23:24
FireFlyin android apps23:24
FireFlydschoepe: I guess you could argue that it's security by obscurity, but at least there's a considerable difference in effort between "disassemble and manually read memory card" and "flash custom firmware and start phone"23:25
pawkyspecial: cant you just create a crypt file and mount it?23:25
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FireFlybut agreed that full disk encryption would be the proper way to handle it23:26
pawkyI would go for the "do not loose your phone, or do not put sensitive stuff on it.... " option23:26
specialpawky: full disk requires a lot of involvement with the boot process; and on a mobile device, storing/entering a full disk encryption key is ..different.23:26
FireFlyYou could say that about anything! :P23:26
pawkywhat is it with todays people suddenly storing sensitive stuff on gadgets?23:26
FireFly"I always use root, I just make sure not to run malware or bad commands"23:26
pawkyspecial: i am talking about creating a dm(?) encrypted file, which you will mount using the loop back interface23:27
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dschoepeFireFly: okay, fair point23:27
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FireFlypawky: *I* don't do it, but I could see the argument being relevant for companies, what with using the device for mail and stuff23:27
dschoepesomething like encfs might also work23:28
specialpawky: yes, if your goal is to keep a selected set of files private, you can guarantee that information won't leak outside of that area, and you can assume that system files won't be modified, that's fine23:28
specialdschoepe: do not use encfs for anything, ever, please.23:28
dschoepespecial: How so?23:28
pawkyFireFly: didn't we have this company discussion earlier today? ;-)23:28
FireFlyHm23:28
pawkylike "do NOT use E-mail to send sensitive info.... "23:28
FireFly...I guess23:29
pawkyi am laughing everyday about the company I work for, regarding its security policy and how they are using mail etc...23:29
dschoepe(I know that it leaks metadata like file sizes and so on, but that's okay in some cases)23:29
specialdschoepe: I can't find the article I'm thinking of at the moment, but, it's a nightmare of side channels and bad ideas.23:29
pawkyFireFly: when it comes to encryption, can you not create a crypt file in Sailfish as of today?23:30
FireFlyI don't know, I've never tried disk encryption23:31
FireFly(on any device)23:31
* FireFly adds that to his mental "things to try on next linux install" list23:31
pawkyFireFly: no NOT disk encryption FILE encryption23:31
specialpawky: encrypting particularly sensitive information is prudent, but it's useful under a much more limited set of circumstances than full disk encryption23:31
FireFlyOh23:31
dschoepespecial: hm, that's odd, so far I haven't heard anything bad about it (and at the moment I'm using it for securing stuff on dropbox, so I'm rather curious)23:31
FireFlypawky: well I'm not the right person to ask about that anyway :P23:32
pawkyFireFly: you create one file, in which you have a partion, which you can mount using the loop driver23:32
pawkyFireFly: I think it is supported on the N923:32
pawkyFireFly: at least you have it on the N90023:32
Jonnipawky: yes, with fuse you can crypt file or loopdevice or partition.23:32
dschoepespecial: there's also "ecryptfs" which has "enterprise" in its description on the website, so maybe that's the horrible one :)23:32
specialmight be. google is providing nothing about whatever specific article I was thinking of23:33
pawkyJonni: thank you, did you read my compliments yesterday by the way? thanks to your help I am now also a happy Jolla owner :-D23:33
Jonnipawky: yes I noticed, thanks.23:33
specialit's certainly better than using dropbox directly23:33
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pawkyFireFly: so there you are then :-) you can encrypt stuff if you want to :-)23:34
FireFlynice23:35
dschoepespecial: I found http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2010-08/0316.html but I'm assuming that's fixed by now23:35
specialdschoepe: it's certainly weak by modern standards of cryptography23:36
specialalthough it looks like those three issues were at least in some sense resolved23:36
Jonniand ecryptfs was not enabled in qualcomm kernel by default, but that will also be enabled at some point in future updates most likely.23:36
dschoepeI guess I ought to check up on this and possibly look for alternatives23:37
pawkyJonni: :-)23:37
dschoepespecial: thanks for pointing that out in any case23:37
specialI'm personally one of those anti-cloud and full-disk-encryption-everywhere people23:37
pawkyspecial: I am the, do not store sensitive stuff, type of person ;-)23:38
specialpawky: what's "sensitive"?23:38
pawkyspecial: you decide :-)23:39
specialI would answer "nearly everything"23:39
dschoepespecial: me too, normally, but I have yet to find a similarly convenient mechanism for synchronisation as dropbox provides23:39
pawkyspecial: really, you mother baking recephy for cookies?23:39
dschoepe(I tried open-source alternatives, but they were all not really up to the task)23:40
pawkydschoepe: not?  how come???23:40
dschoepe(and still cloud-based in a sense, albeit running on my own server, but I don't have physical control over that one either)23:40
pawkydschoepe: to  my knowledge there are quite a few ones using ssh that will do it for you23:40
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dschoepepawky: seafile kept reporting failures to index files and somehow didn't sync some files correctly, for instance23:41
pawkydschoepe: unless you don't trust ssh that is..23:41
Jonnirsync and rsync-backup :)23:41
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pawkyJonny: exactly what I was thinking about! :-)23:41
dschoepepawky: owncloud was awfully slow, about a year ago23:41
pawkyjust create a script23:41
dschoepeJonni: well, ideally, I'd like something with automated synchronisation23:41
pawkydschoepe: automate your script?23:42
specialI'm sure there are solutions out there these days23:42
dschoepepawky: well, I could use inotify for detecting changes in the directory, but I'd have to do that on the server-side and somehow signal my clients as well, but all this gets messy fast23:43
pawkyJonni: would it be possible to rip the nav softy from the N9 into the Jolla?23:43
FireFlydschoepe: speaking of things that ought to be fixed by now, http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2014-January/002389.html23:43
dschoeperunning unison or so every minute seems rather awful23:43
Jonnipawky: x11 vs wayland, so nothing from N9 will work.23:43
Jonni(or non-GUI console stuff works) :)23:43
FireFly(I guess you could say it's fixde by *now*. as in, today)23:43
dschoepesparkleshare is still on my list to try though23:44
dschoepeFireFly: yeah, I saw that23:44
FireFlyI find it hilarious23:45
pawkyJonni: The offline NAV softy was really one of the things Nokia got very right compared to their competitors... I really hope it will be implemented somehow also on the Jolla23:46
dschoepeFireFly: it's a bit frightening that it took so long to find this, although we've had static analysers for this kind of thing for some time23:46
FireFlyI agree23:47
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pawkyJonni: which one is x11 by the way, Jolla? :-)23:49
Jonnin923:49
pawky:-(23:49
FireFlywhy the frown?23:50
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pawkyMay I address one serious design flaw with this phone?... as it is using swype left right here and there it is very unfortunate its a very slippery phone! I have nearly dropped it 4 times today...23:51
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pawkyany unit you have to do actions in a sideway motion should have a none slip material, the N9 was like a soap, but the rubber shell made up for it23:52
pdanekDo you guys prefer Paypal or direct credit card payment?23:52
pawkypdanek: you can pay me in cash if you want :-)23:53
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pawkypdanek: I bought my phone using my card...23:53
pdanekpawky: if you make me good keyboard-half, I pay you a lot23:53
pdanekpawky: I'm suffering sooo hard on Jolla with virtual keyboard23:54
pawkypdanek: here you are :-) http://www.google.se/imgres?biw=1920&bih=1002&tbm=isch&tbnid=DEjILzalOJLLUM%3A&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onehandedkeyboard.com%2Fhalfqwerty.html&docid=4ASCEZR_G6bszM&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onehandedkeyboard.com%2Fimagesfolder%2Fhalfkeyboard.jpg&w=375&h=209&ei=LojQUsKpMJLCygOy0oGABg&zoom=1&ved=0CFAQhBwwAA&iact=rc&dur=562&page=1&start=0&ndsp=3623:54
pdanekpawky: good old N900.... so until there is keyboard-half, N900 is officially a better phone! :D23:54
pdanekhehe23:55
pawkypdanek: you are right, good old N900 :-)23:55
pawkypdanek: you could get half of that one if you want :-D23:55
pawkypdanek: what do you prefer, the left side or the right? ;-)23:55
FireFlypawky: luckily a rubber-covered other half should be easy I suppose23:55
FireFlyPossibly suggest it on together, as a potential other half to be provided by Jolla23:56
pawkyFireFly: i surely believe so, but it came bundled with the N9 compared to Jolla23:56
FireFlyAh23:56
FireFlyI've found it a bit hard to get a good grip on too, so I'd probably buy a rubber cover as well23:57
pawkyFireFly: the N900 didn't have it, but by putting a leash on it, you could always "save" it if it jumped out of your hand..23:57
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pawkyFireFly: the N900 had a "leash hole"23:57
FireFlyWell, the N900 I could easily pick up and slide out the screen with one hand with23:57
FireFlySafely (or at least I never had any accident that I remember)23:58
pawkyFireFly: yeah, Jolla should sell a rubbery back plane... I will buy it23:58
pawkywith a leather and leash, ambience to go with it B-)23:59

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