#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2014-01-22

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Claudyi wonder if i could read out the data on an nfc ring i got a while ago00:03
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keithzgClaudy: Well, N8 isn't 4 inches, it's only a 3.5" screen. I mean, even just using my N9 (which is a hair under 4"), using an N8 briefly the phone seemed really small.00:50
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* keithzg carries around an N9 and a Nexus 4 every day; the Nexus 4 makes the N9 seem far too small for browsing the web, but for messaging, podcasts, music and of course slipping it into and out of pockets, the small size of the N9 seems way better.00:55
keithzgOh oops, I guess I was actually directing the N8 comment at Yaniel :)00:56
* keithzg is probably going a bit crazy, waiting on word on whether his Jolla arrived at its destination in France.00:57
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Claudyheh01:00
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Claudymines finally arrived yesterday in amsterdam01:01
Claudyi got to get it today <301:01
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tbrgood moaning06:00
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thpjoonahoi: ;) there's https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.thp.petals3d.android for android06:33
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AL13Ntbr: moaning eh...06:52
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joonahoithp: oh there actually is an android version, great!07:35
joonahoiso no hard feelings, i got my phone back :D07:36
Stskeepsthere's definitely a big market for games that can be played while breastfeeding..07:36
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joonahoiyup, she can't play any reactive games and most puzzles require some constant zorro moves as well07:38
joonahoifor added difficulty, we have twins07:39
Stskeepsadvanced user level07:44
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fluxhmm, does sharing notes via email from Notes app work?08:08
AL13N_workwhoa twins08:09
fluxhmm, actually it maybe does but it uses some attachment type thunderbird doesn't show :-o08:09
fluxand of course the notes aren't files but in a database.. at least sqlite3 is available for reading them :)08:13
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Tofehow do I restart Dalvik ? is it a systemd service ?08:21
Stskeepssystemctl stop aliendalvik.service ?08:21
TofeI'll try 'restart' :)08:21
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TofeThat went well, thanks08:23
joonahoiflux: check the message source from thunderbird08:24
joonahoiit will show you the mime blocks if there's an attachment08:24
joonahoicontent-type in the header should give you hint too08:25
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fluxyes, I saw the message in the source view08:32
fluxbut I decided to read the database file instead. I first failed to copy-paste it to terminal, somehow the paste button wasn't active..08:32
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Wnthas anyone else experienced a problem with the alarm clock that it doesn't start alerting when it should?08:34
PnuuI've seen someone mention that here08:34
Stskeeps1.0.2.5?08:34
Wntinstead it starts alerting ~5 minutes after I have unlocked the screen08:34
WntStskeeps: Yes, running 1.0.2.508:34
Stskeepsand how soon between setting and alarm08:34
WntStskeeps: multiple hours08:35
Stskeepsok08:35
Wntthis happened twice this week and multiple times last week on my device08:35
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Wntmaybe I should write a question to together.jolla.com?08:36
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Stskeepsplease do08:37
joonahoiWnt: do you have any problems connecting to mobile data?08:38
Wntjoonahoi: nope08:38
joonahoiok, nvm that then08:38
joonahoiit's the only thing that has been blocking all the action including UI in my device, happened only once though08:39
Tofejoonahoi: funny that you talk about that, it's happening to me right now08:39
joonahoithat sucks :/ go vote on the issue on together.jolla.com and add any further details to comments if you have any08:40
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mornfallhmm08:46
Tofejoonahoi: looks like telepathy is trying to connect to mobile data, but as there is a network error, this error message shows up multiple times08:46
mornfallI got a sim disconnected message twice already. :\08:46
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Tofethe fact that this error message blocks the UI is already known to Jolla I think08:46
mornfallBtw., anyone knows how is it with the reboot it wants? I dismissed the dialog and I can still make calls...08:47
joonahoiTofe: yeah, it looped 'till phone shutdown for me08:50
joonahoithe one time it happened08:50
joonahoiand yup, there's issue created in tjo08:50
Tofeah, I just reproduced it08:51
Wnthere is the alarm clock question https://together.jolla.com/question/18348/alarm-clock-doesnt-alert-on-time/08:51
Tofeah no -- I managed to get back my UI. but the error message is really a blocking thing.08:51
Wntmornfall: that happens me every few days08:51
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Wntthe phone says "somethign wrong with the sim card, reboot device" or something similar, but mobile data and calls work just fine08:52
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mornfallWnt: this, I think https://together.jolla.com/question/1358/sim-card-connection-to-phone-lost-easily/08:55
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Wntmy sim card issue might be some kind of timeout occouring in the device when it's being too busy and that triggers the UI notification09:00
Wntbut if I dismiss the notification I can use mobile data just fine09:00
mornfalldunno, I didn't have any load on the device, but I also can't reproduce the "pressure" thing from t.j.o09:02
Wntmaybe it's a similar problem with the alarm clock: CPU frequency gets locked to a very low level when the device is in standby, something is still running and consuming resources and prevents an alarm clock test routine from running09:02
mornfallthe sim card sits in there pretty tight09:02
WntI have only seen the SIM card problem when waking up the device from a standby state09:03
AL13N_worki cut my SIM and i didn't have the issue09:04
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artemmaasking for donations without special license is illegal in Finland, but central bank recently ruled that Bitcoin isn't money. Hence I guess you should be able to legally ask for Bitcoin donations in your apps :)09:22
dunp:)09:22
slateSo making bitcoins by piracy isnt that illegal also?09:22
fluxnot money, but they are worth something ;)09:23
artemmaslate: that was about donations only09:23
dunpi like bitcoin idea09:23
artemmaI guess legally it looks like if people were donating coffee or clothes for your app :)09:23
ShadowJKWnt; cpu frequency is mostly 0 in standby09:23
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Nicd-it's stupid in Finland, you can't even tell your bank account or paypal for donations on your website09:24
slateah okey :)09:24
Nicd-only if people specifically ask you, you can tell those people09:24
artemmaslate: to be precise it was about *asking* for donations only. It is legal to donate whatever if you yourself like the app and decide on it. It is illegal to ask for donation. I guess it means that putting Donations button into app is illegal09:24
Nicd-artemma: in Finland it is09:25
fluxso you should put a "Do not donate" button in the app09:25
artemmathat is except for bitcoins now. You can tell in your app the address to send you warm clothes and bitcoins :)09:25
flux"Under no circumstances I wish to receive donations to the following bank account: "09:26
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dunpbitcoins to app store? :)09:27
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artemmathat would be a geek fun case :)09:28
artemmaeliminating chances for real income unfortunately09:29
artemmabut fun09:29
fluxeliminating chances for real income?09:29
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artemmaflux: how many smartphones users do you think have a single bit of bitcoins?09:30
ottuloo/09:30
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fluxartemma, one, ottulo09:30
artemmait's amazing that it is being asked at all. Oh well, Jolla is about geek fun for now indeed, not about money just yet :)09:30
ShadowJKThose highschool kids that wrap christmas gifts for "voluntray payment" around christmas time seem to get away with asking for donations09:30
mornfallunless you are actually a Finnish citizen, I don't think you are bound by Finnish law just because Jolla's servers are in Finland (are they, even?)09:31
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ottulo<artemma> slate: to be precise it was about *asking* for donations only. It is legal to donate whatever -> there's a limited amount you can donate (gift) without taxes09:31
ShadowJKthey're on amazon, arent they09:31
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artemmaShadowJK: that is Finnish law only and even here I don't think the law is really enforced for tiny amounts donated to kids09:32
mornfallShadowJK: at least some of them, looking at the IP addresses09:32
ottuloI think it matters where the business is registered09:33
mornfallyup, store-repository.jolla.com lives in amazon aws09:33
ottulonot sure, but that's what I'd imagine09:33
mornfallottulo: that only applies if Jolla asked for donations09:34
ottuloalso, asking for donations is one thing, simply providing a bank account number or such is not09:34
ottulomornfall: true09:34
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mornfallbut then, wiring money is pretty expensive, better get flattr or something ;-)09:35
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mornfall(guess paypal is more likely)09:36
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artemmawell, you can ask for money donations in Finland, you just need to get a money collection license (no idea about the process, but sounds difficult/expensive)09:40
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slateand pay taxes09:41
slate?09:41
jussiprobably09:42
jussi:P09:42
slateIf bitcoin is no money, no taxes either. win win.09:42
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ShadowJKI'm not sure if it falls under "Donation" if you've delivered a product to the person giving you the payment09:42
ln-i don't think it's expensive, but such a license can only be granted to very specific purposes for certain organizations... can't be granted to companies or individual citizens for example.09:42
zuttoartemma: you also need to be registered association09:42
entilslate: however if it's not money and it's sold and bought, you pay taxes for the increase in value09:42
ottuloslate: there are taxes for other stuff too apart from money09:42
dunphere in finland you can sell bitcoin to euros :) bittiraha.fi09:43
entil(not value-added tax but winnings tax)09:43
zuttodunp: wouldnt trust shady site like that :|09:43
slateottulo: should be at least.09:43
zuttobetter to use something like mtgox09:43
entildunp: the localbitcoins guy suggested that private people are not accountable by law to keep accounts of their finances, so that's ok, but he's no lawyer and no one else is either09:43
ShadowJKI'd rather use a well-established exhange like mtgox09:43
zuttoShadowJK: exactly09:43
zuttothese small sites will rip you off in most cases09:44
entilbut there is a tradition by the government to slap you with "consideration tax" if they think you've been cheating, so you can't escape09:44
slateottulo: but for some things its quite impossible to give a value to pay taxes from09:44
ottulozutto: I personally know some people behind Bittiraha09:44
dunpzutto,  i have used it09:44
artemmazutto: we have bitcoin to euros ATMs in Finland. Would that work for you? :)09:44
kehnookeep buttcoins out of serious projects, thanks09:44
ottulozutto: MtGox isn't really that trustworthy, sure it works but they have a lot of trouble with handling fiat09:44
entilon the contrary, bitcoins into everything so it gets accepted09:44
ShadowJKI once did work in exchange for free internet. The taxman found out, and wasn't happy :<09:45
zuttoartemma: yeah, i've seen those.. the rate they give are horrible09:45
entiljust don't let the government in on it09:45
zuttoso no09:45
zuttoi wouldnt use atm either09:45
artemmazutto: that's the price you pay for assumed anonymity :D09:45
zuttoi dont use bitcoins, but if i did.. i would turn to something like mtgox :P09:45
entilI use bitstamp and bitcurex09:46
sharpneliartemma: It's only euros to bitcoin09:46
entilbitcurex has this real cool visa electron thing09:46
dunpi have buy 2x radeon 280x on bitcoins and  pay phone bills..09:46
entilyou can lift your euros onto a prepaid electron09:46
zuttoentil: that would be intresting, but i could assume thats illegal in finland :P09:47
entilleave no trace for the man to follow09:47
mornfallentil: that's the trivial part09:47
entilzutto: why would it be illegal?09:47
mornfallentil: you also need to have a completely separate identity that's untraceable to you09:47
sharpneli"wiring money is pretty expensive, better get flattr or something" Also insidie EU wiring money is practically free.09:47
sharpneliIt's only expensive in USA09:47
zuttoentil: cause you need to be approved bank to give out prepaid creditcards09:47
entilmornfall: sure, sure, nothing's ever 100% anon09:47
ottulozutto: it's not illegal, simply no bank in Fin wants to support that - so you gotta get the card + account from a foreign bank09:47
entilzutto: it's a polish deal, the card comes from poland09:47
mornfallsharpneli: you mean eurozone09:48
entilyou get your tx history and saldo info by sending an sms to a polish service number09:48
mornfallsharpneli: not EU09:48
sharpnelimornfall: True.09:48
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mornfallsharpneli: cost's me like 8€ to wire money into eurozone09:48
sharpnelimornfall: Actually it should be cheap also to Norway, sweden etc.09:48
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mornfallcosts*09:48
ottulomornfall: from online bank or at the bank f2f?09:49
mornfallsharpneli: norway is much more expesnive09:49
mornfallottulo: ebanking for a brick-and-mortar bank09:49
sharpnelimornfall: You're in USA?09:49
ottulomornfall: ok09:49
mornfallsharpneli: I once wired 100k NOK, cost over 100€09:50
mornfallsharpneli: .cz, right in the middle of EU09:50
sharpneliBut regardless, we have paypal09:50
sharpneli:O09:50
ottuloand paypal is cheap?09:50
mornfallpaypal is, well, cheaper09:50
mornfallnot exactly cheap09:50
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sharpneliWell cheaper than bitcoin. Currently for small transfers (less than 5 euros) you get like 50 cent fee09:51
mornfallthe other problem with wires is that it takes substantial effort to file the order, even online09:51
mornfallsharpneli: yeah, flattr takes 10% as well09:51
ottulosharpneli: the fee is optional09:51
ottuloin bitcoin transactions09:52
mornfallottulo: the exchange rate isn't09:52
ottulounless you're using a service that doesn't give you the option09:52
zuttosharpneli: we also have google wallet coming soon for personal transfers09:52
sharpneliottulo: Only in larger ones. In the default client smaller ones give automatic fee.09:52
ottulomornfall: the exchange rate can be adjusted, you just need to find the place to trade09:52
ottulosharpneli: you can always do a manual transaction to bypass fees09:53
mornfallottulo: all "bitcoin" prices I have ever seen were actually fiat-money prices real-time converted into bitcoin09:53
sharpneliottulo: Yap. But it might get orphaned in that case.09:53
mornfallottulo: there isn't really such a thing as paying in bitcoin09:53
ottulosharpneli: might, but quite rarely do09:54
mornfallottulo: it's just a volatile standin for USD09:54
ottulomornfall: well, usually companies don't take bitcoin directly, but use a service like BitPay09:54
ottulobut it is still cheaper for the business to use BitPay than cash/credit09:54
mornfall(and until the bitcoin rate stabilises, there isn't going to be a bitcoin economy to speak of...)09:55
sharpneliAlso bitcoin is old news, dogecoin! Such value!09:55
ottuloI agree, it needs to stabilize, but that doesn't mean people won't use it before that09:55
sharpneliAdditionally bitcoin is kinda tricky to use in mobile. 13G for the blockchain and by the gods does the syncing back up take ages. The only way to use it is to use some service and those may have their own fees.09:56
mornfalland I know that bitcoiners really discount this, but the known flaws of fiat currencies are substantially smaller risk than the unknown flaws of bitcoin09:56
ottulosharpneli: that's why there are services like Blockchain.info online wallet - you don't need to dl the blockchain09:56
mornfallsharpneli: never trust a bitcoin service (i.e. online wallets? never, ever)09:56
entilmultibit-style lighter clients exist too09:57
sharpnelimornfall: Exactly.09:57
mornfallalso, I hear the best use for bitcoins is buying counterfeit euros :D09:57
mornfall(or dollars, that probably works better)09:57
sharpneliAnd drugs. And speculating.09:57
ottulomornfall: best use currently is for tipping09:57
ottuloimo09:58
mornfallottulo: that only works if your tips-in roughly equal out tips-out09:58
ottulomornfall: that is if you only tip from tips you receive09:58
mornfallyeah09:59
mornfallbut you know, this counterfeit money business, that must be a goldmine... :-P09:59
ottuloI guess, haven't really looked into it10:00
mornfallno way anyone is going to correlate the delivery address with tor usage in the area10:00
mornfallyou could triple the value of your bitcoin donations only by running a small risk of jailtime... who could resist that10:02
mornfall(obviously, the counterfeiter is always legit, no risk there)10:03
sharpnelimornfall: In b4 NSA does it.10:03
sharpnelimornfall: Small time perps are not going to get caught. But if you are going to do something serious then NSA will discreetly give all the info forwards.10:04
mornfallsharpneli: might work with USD, I would be scared shitless to pay with counterfeit EUR10:04
mornfallespecially if I had a heap of them stashed somewhere10:05
sharpneliOr you could just use your energy to make something actually useful :)10:05
mornfalldon't you say10:05
mornfalllike what? :-)10:05
ballocklike fix some bugs10:05
mornfallyeah, add BMI tracking to weight log10:05
mornfallI knew people would ask for it10:06
mornfallalso, github weight log, or something10:06
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mornfallis there an app wishlist somewhere? :)10:11
tachikomai bet there is a number of those10:12
rcg_http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9024510:12
rcg_e.g.10:12
rcg_but that's just the first "hit" that came to my mind10:13
mornfallyeah, it's also hopelessly outdated10:13
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AL13N_workmornfall: http://elinux.org/Jolla#Cool_Ideas.2C_but_No_Time_aka_CINT10:39
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AL13N_workmornfall: https://together.jolla.com/questions/scope:all/sort:activity-desc/tags:app-request/page:1/10:39
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AL13N_workapp wishlist ^^10:40
AL13N_workif anyone wants to help me, i want MangaWhat ported to native :-)10:40
AL13N_workand a divx video player from my NFS mount point10:41
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mornfallAL13N_work: try 'ssu domain sales' suuuure10:46
Skorpysomething wrong with the email app. notification sais 4 new mails. I press the notification and see only one mail. it seems to get the same mail from other folders too.10:46
mornfallAL13N_work: that wiki is busted10:46
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ggabrielmorning11:00
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vesqu_Skorpy, its shows new email in all folders, when looks folder view its shows where new messages are.11:10
Skorpyvesqu_: yeah. but it's the same mail :/11:11
Skorpyit's in inbox, "all mail" and "uni"11:11
vesqu_in many folder same time?11:11
Skorpythat's three. dunno where the fourth came from11:11
Skorpyvesqu_: yeah11:11
Skorpygmail and filter you see11:11
Skorpyfilters*11:12
vesqu_if its shows filters as folders its may happens11:12
Skorpymy filter puts it into the uni folder. it shows at all mail by default of course.11:13
Skorpyso it shows "2 new emails" for one email by default11:13
vesqu_in exchange mail does not do that11:13
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vesqu_and gmail i use so little i didn't notice that.11:14
vesqu_and now my phone is bricked not can test it :)11:14
Skorpyhmm... I wonder if this is already in together. if not, maybe I should write it there :P11:15
SkorpyI have tried to look for it in there, but haven't found one11:15
SkorpyI've also seen notifications from mail that goes straight to spam :/11:16
Skorpyand that is even more big of a problem11:16
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HarhaanJohtajahttp://www.tippler.im/ "only" 450 per year11:27
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artemmaQuick Launcher was approved in jolla app store 25min ago! Speeds up the apps start! Go download and like it and leave comments for improvements! :)13:22
Turskiwhat it does?13:23
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Bysmyyr_artemma: is that program calling home?13:25
artemmaTurski: yes, I clearly need to improve the description as Quick Launcher doesn't seem to be descriptive enough, you tell me what it does after you tried, please :)13:26
artemmaBysmyyr_, no, not yet. Will call home when I figure how to do it without breaking user experience and how to tell it in UI so that its obvious13:26
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Milo-why do you need statistics?13:26
artemmawell, will *probably* call home when I figure all these things. Maybe I decide it's too much work for the stats13:27
Milo-it's an app which launches other apps, you either get likes at jolla store, or you don't.13:27
Turskiartemma: sorry, just didn't bother to reach my jolla...13:28
artemmaMilo-: because I like improving how apps work. You know, like AB-testing improvements. There are a number of speed optimizations in mind for quick launcher that may or may not work depending on how many apps you have installed, etc. I want to collect stats on for how many people they help13:28
Milo-you could provide a link to your project website, where users could give you feedback.13:28
Milo-rather than mine them with force13:29
ShadowJKusers are shit at useful feedback :D13:29
Milo-respect users and they might respect you13:29
ShadowJKthe placebo effects are too strong :)13:29
Nicd-first shutdown of the day :|13:30
Turskior add option to settings to collect/send statistics13:30
TurskiNicd-: i already had maybe 613:30
Milo-Turski but would it automatically collect user data, if the user has told not to send them?13:30
artemmaMilo-: as long as I remember stats classes, that's the worst possible way to collect meaningful numbers :)13:31
Milo-artemma I don't understand what meaningful user data you can get from a flashlight application or a quicklauncher.13:31
artemmathere's proposal (by me) in Together to use Jolla as a mediator for trusted stats collection. If it gets enough votes, I'll be happy13:31
artemmaMilo-: do you want me to retype the AB-tesing paragraph? :)13:32
artemmaanyway, it doesn't collect data now and I don't intend to collect it without telling, I try learning from my messups13:32
Milo-harbour isn't agile enough for AB-testing.13:32
artemmaI still think that it's crucially useful for app improvment13:32
abyou don't need to test me13:33
artemmaMilo-: what does harbour have to do with ab-testing my app? :/13:33
artemmaMilo-: you know what AB-testing is, right?13:33
Milo-yes.13:33
Milo-usually you give some features to one random set of people and disable it from the others13:34
Milo-and then you look for statitistics whether the feature works or is liked in the first place13:34
ShadowJKhm, do you think QA would care if an app made connections to .nsa.gov on startup and shutdown? :D13:34
Stskeepsmore worrying is how many people would install a popular app anyway if it said up front it did that..13:35
Milo-artemma which raises some suspicions, because you either have to upload different versions to harbour (which isn't very agige or fast)13:35
Milo-or your application would take a remote connection to your server, which tells the application to work in one way, or the other.13:36
ggabrielStskeeps: clap clap clap :)13:36
Stskeepsmm?13:36
Milo-which pretty much looks like malicious intent to fool the QA people and the users.13:37
ggabrielStskeeps: sorry, that's an applause for the comment13:37
Stskeepsah13:37
artemmaMilo-: how ab testing is usually done, you let the potential improvement work for 10% of users only and see if it improves the final outcome in a statistically significant way. That's it. Nothing harbour related there13:37
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Milo-read the second part..13:38
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artemmaYeah, app should be able to know if it needs to use improvements or not. There are many ways to do it, in the end it boils down to having a randomized id for this or that user13:40
Milo-which means that you are potentially fooling the QA-people13:41
Milo-disable malicious feature from the application while it's in QA and enable it when it's used by an end user.13:41
Milo-that's what AB-testing allows you to do, if you wish.13:42
Milo-it's "safe" in the web world, where the application is executed on the same server which it connects, (at least in some ways with clouds)13:43
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artemmaMilo-: do you know that if you really want you can hide things from QA people with many other ways? Building an AB-testing system machinery for hiding malicious feature.. oh, you'd have troubles being accepted to a hacker gang with this sort of ideas :)13:50
* artemma is doing AB-testing on the iOS apps daily and improvements are well worth it. Sorry if it collides with your ideas on how the app improvement ideas should be tested13:51
* artemma finds it funny when AB-testing on server side is somehow okay while doing same on a client side is not even if the app connects to the same server anyway13:52
dschoepeartemma: I think since Snowden we can't call people paranoid for worrying about this kind of thing anymore13:54
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artemmadschoepe: this point of view I find most funny. NSA knows everything about you anyway. And if it notices Jolla existence by accident, it will come to Jolla HQ, not to a Flashlight app maker13:55
dschoepeartemma: well, I'm not sure if a Finnish company has to comply with requests by the NSA, so putting a malicious app in the app store and hoping that it slips by during the QA testing sounds plausible13:56
artemmaoh well, we can disagree on rationale, same things stay anyway: Quick Launcher doesn't collect info, if it will, it will tell it somewhere. I guess, I'll create a Privacy menu item in the very top level as I did for Flashlight13:56
Nicd-I would appreciate if you mentioned it in the desription13:57
Nicd-description*13:57
dschoepeand if you use something like OTR for chatting and PGP for email and your phone isn't otherwise compromised then they'd be missing out on that form of communication13:57
artemmadschoepe: yeah, EU countries also do not have to comply with US requests to put Snowden's plane down - I've heard about the idea of European independence before :)13:57
artemmaNicd-: that's also true, nothing to mention there yet13:57
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dschoepeartemma: we know that most European intelligence agencies cooperate with the NSA to some extent anyway, so feeling safe just because the product is made by a European company is risky to say the least.13:59
ggabrieltsk tsk guys, freenode accepts unencrypted connections ;-)13:59
dschoepeggabriel: the overwhelming majority of channels is public anyway, isn't it?13:59
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ggabrieldschoepe: yup, but that implies that the nsa can use irc ;-)13:59
artemmaggabriel: have you seen NSA's scheme on decoding Google traffic? Encryption sort of doesn't matter if you sit on the server :D14:00
ggabrielartemma: yup, that's why i minimise the use of google. also, schmidt did say they were going to do no evil until 2010, right? so, people who still use it are well aware...14:00
dschoepethere was also one quote were Schmidt said that we shouldn't expect any more security and privacy from google than a call on a cell phone offers :)14:01
dschoepeso.. none14:01
artemmato my understanding nowadays they will go to jail if they admit cooperating with NSA, they are not allowed to tell14:01
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dschoepeDoes anyone know of a way to swap the operations of swiping from the top and swiping from the left/right? Since my hands aren't quite big enough to swipe from the top without changing my grip, it'd be nice to do that, as left and right edge swipes do the same thing anyway (except for ambience changing).14:25
ballockUse the source, Luke!14:26
Nicd-swiping from left/right and swiping from the top is not the same thing14:27
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dschoepeNicd-: no, but swiping from the left and swiping from the right is.14:27
dschoepeballock: I wish I could, but afaik, that part is closed-source14:27
Venemogood morning everyone :)14:27
ballockoh, really? I thought it's just closed design.14:27
Venemowhat's closed source?14:28
dschoepeVenemo: the parts of the UI that handle swiping, etc.14:28
dschoepeto my understanding, basically all of the basic UI stuff was proprietary14:29
ballockI find it hard to believe... there's a number of people porting it to other platforms14:29
ballockwith the ui and stuff14:29
Venemowell, not entirely14:30
Stskeepsit's a very portable ui14:30
ballockI remember somebody even swapping to landscape on some device...14:30
Venemohere is the open source part: https://github.com/nemomobile/lipstick14:30
Venemoyou can (at least it's technically possible to) make your own lipstick home screen and replace the one in sailfish14:30
ballocksoo... how do I use the closed part on a device with a larger screen?14:32
dschoepeVenemo: thanks, I'll take a look at it14:32
ballockI'd need to reimplement the whole UI?14:32
Venemoask someone who's been porting it ;)14:33
ballockwill when I get to it14:33
* ballock intends to run Sailfish on Archos 80 G914:33
Venemoballock: for example this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaVAMGv3tI4 was done by sledges - I'm sure he'll be helpful :)14:35
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ballockWell, that was easy, it's the same Qualcomm chip and screen size14:37
ballock(I don't intend to say I would be able to do it, would need to try first)14:38
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Venemoballock: like I said, ping him and ask :) I don't know anything more about it14:40
sledgesscreen size is not the same ballock, you can see some sizing-related bits in the video14:43
ballockHow did you get to the starting point? I guess you needed to generate root or something?14:44
ballockI guess I'll need to recompile the kernel for my Archos to make it work, that needs some specific cross-compiler?14:45
sledgesballock: if your device can run cyanogen mod 10.x, it will have less hard-times running sailfish as it's based of14:46
sledges(the hardware adaptation that is)14:46
sledgeshere's nemo on n7: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWQZJcEwEow14:46
sledges(with fully open source UI)14:47
Venemobtw sledges, I hear you're coming to FOSDEM too? :)14:48
sledgesyes, are you Venemo ? :)14:48
Venemosledges: I sure am!14:49
sledges\o/14:49
tbrreminds me to reserve the restaurant soon™14:49
sledgesdidn't see you there last year :)14:49
Venemobecause I wasn't there last year14:49
sledges;P14:49
Venemosledges: btw will we see you at tbr's party?14:49
sledgesthe sailfish os dinner you mean? sure!14:49
Venemogreat14:49
Venemo:)14:49
tbrkarma-whoring™ https://together.jolla.com/question/11303/are-you-going-to-fosdem-2014-irl-floss-meeting-in-belgium/?answer=11461#post-id-1146114:50
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Venemotbr: already voted up14:50
Venemo:P14:50
tbr;)14:50
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tbrballock: in case of G9 ther is a CM build. don't remember if CM10.1 though. the install instructions for that stuff also get you a android type recovery where you could then 'execute' the zip files etc14:53
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tbrI might still have the stuff from when I was playing with gen914:55
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dschoepeVenemo: sorry for being a bit ignorant here, but I'm having trouble finding it in the docs: Are you sure that lipstick is the component that decides what to do on user input like swiping from one of the edges? I can't seem to find related parts in the code.14:59
ballockstill, would need to find the right files to put there, like rootfs for Sailfish...14:59
ballockor do you mean that I first get the rootfs of cyanogenmod?14:59
ballockand then add-on some stuff...?15:00
Venemodschoepe: lipstick is a toolkit for creating your own compositor. it contains a way to display window previews as QML items, a model you can use as launcher, and utilities for notifications15:00
Venemodschoepe: whatever the compositor does when the user does whatever on the edge of the screen is up to your implementation15:00
ballockbtw, sledges: what was the UI on nexus7 you posted?15:00
ballocklooks interesting15:00
Venemoballock: it is the old Nemo UI15:01
dschoepeVenemo: ah, okay, so for the jolla-specific implementation I'd have to look at their binaries instead, right?15:01
ballockso... was the Nemo UI closed? As I think Nemo is the UI used in Jolla?15:01
Venemoballock: no15:02
Venemosrsly guys, I don't see the confusion15:02
ballockI mean, was the UI closed at some point in time?15:02
VenemoNemo contains a lot of _middleware_ components that are used in Sailfish. but the nemo UI itself is not used in Sailfish15:02
ballockwhat's the big deal that it's closed in Jollas?15:02
Venemothe Nemo UI is still open, but it's a different implementation; not the same as the Sailfish UI15:03
ballockah, ok, that explains it then15:03
sledgeslatest Nemo Glacier UI, still work in progress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKiGdIQraCQ15:03
sledgesit will look like this: http://play.qwazix.com/grog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SystemUI.png15:03
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Venemoballock, dschoepe, please take a look at this: https://sailfishos.org/images/Sailfish_Architecture.png15:04
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Venemoballock: basically most of what you see in the "UI and Middleware" box are Nemo components, except for the actual user interface itself15:05
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dschoepeVenemo: thanks, but that's a very high-level overview. My confusion was more a result of trying to find one specific component of the user interface.15:07
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Venemodschoepe: I only meant it as an illustration to what I was talking about15:07
Venemobtw, I think there should be two boxes there: one for "Nemo middleware" and one for "Jolla UI"15:07
* sledges agrees15:08
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Venemodschoepe: one more thought about the edge gestures: I think that in QML, they are actually extremely easy to implement (much-much easier than what we had in the X times)15:18
dschoepeVenemo: I just saw that you joined after I asked what I was after actually: I'm trying to swap the actions caused by swipe-from-top and swipe-from-left, so it should be a simple matter of swapping some addresses if I know in which binary to look and what to look for.15:20
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Venemodschoepe: ask coderus in #sailfishos I think he did some hacking on the closed binary15:22
dschoepeVenemo: thanks, I will15:23
dschoepeWhile looking through the lipstick binary I realised my skills at reading ARM assembly are way more rusty than I thought anyway :)15:23
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Venemodschoepe: that being said, I'm not 100% confident that the edge gestures are implemented in QML, but it seems like a logical guess. that's where I'd implement them, anyway ;)15:25
dschoepeVenemo: QML code is lost during compilation anyhow, isn't it?15:25
Venemodschoepe: it depends.15:25
tachikomahm, when reading arm i had to think of what i watched about arm recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw0g1yiQA5M15:25
tachikomathat si a collection of really entertaining / informing programs that were broadcasted when arcorn developed the arm architecture15:26
tachikomaif they'd known what would come out of that back then  :)15:26
Venemodschoepe: some apps load the QML from the file system, some add the QMLs to the executable (using Qt resources) - either way, you can hack them out. for example: https://together.jolla.com/question/12022/patch-for-lipstick-jolla-home-qt5-to-support-any-framebuffer-orientation/15:27
dschoepeVenemo: ah okay, that's good to know15:28
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Venemodschoepe: seriously, go to #sailfishos and ping coderus :) he'll know more15:29
dschoepeVenemo: okay, done15:30
dschoepeVenemo: thanks for your help in any case15:31
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faenildschoepe, the QML is just "compiled" inside the bin, it's not hard to extract it, google google ;)15:33
Venemofaenil +115:34
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tachikoma[x] paddy *kann* googlen15:41
tachikomaoops, wrong window, sorry15:41
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dschoepeI searched for every combination of extracting qrc/qml files from a binary I could think of but I only found a way to do that from within the application. Could anyone point me in the right direction anyway?16:18
Pnuu#sailfishos ;-)16:20
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dschoepeOkay, I'll demonstrate my inability to google effectively there :)16:21
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* roboro hates that google is used as a verb16:25
* roboro suggests using webgrep as a non-commercially-oriented alternative :)16:25
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dschoeperoboro: grep has a nicer user interface than search engines though. And using duckduckgo as a verb just sounds weird :)16:27
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roborolol16:27
Yanielwhy not take it further16:27
Yaniel"googling" is somewhat synonymous to "lookup"16:28
Yanielso whenever you want to access a website your computer first has to do a "dns-google"16:28
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Yanielor "search"... presenting you the infamous antivirus software: Spybot - google and destroy16:29
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* roboro shoots Yaniel before the disease can spread16:29
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Yanielaw16:30
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AL13N_workmornfall: update the wiki if it's wrong16:58
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krnlynghow long will it take to install enable developer mode?17:34
Stskeepsdid you add a jolla account?17:35
krnlyngyes17:35
faenilkrnlyng, common things to check: time is correct, jolla account is signed in17:35
Stskeepsupgrade to 1.0.2.5 first17:36
Stskeeps:P17:36
Stskeeps.. and sacrifice a goat17:36
Yanieland don't enable developer updates17:37
krnlyngokay :), is there a way to manually upgrade? it doesn't show that there is an update17:37
Yanielgoto settings -> info -> pulley menu "check updates"17:37
Yanielsettins -> system -> info *17:37
krnlyngah :)17:37
krnlyngthanks17:37
Yanielinstalling developer mode doesn't take much once you are all set17:38
Yanielmaybe 30s17:38
krnlynghm it doesn't find an update17:38
krnlyngafter checking for updates it says Updates: Up to date but the version is 1.0.0.517:40
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Yanielwhat data connection do you have active?17:41
krnlyngwifi17:41
Pnuujust a sec!17:41
Pnuukrnlyng: https://together.jolla.com/question/3816/jolla-store-crashes-unable-to-update-system/#post-id-385517:42
Pnuu(needs dev mode)17:42
Yanielwelll that obviously won't work as he is trying to get developer mode in the first place17:43
Yanielwhich is somewhat... risky when not up to date17:43
Pnuuoh, right17:43
Yanielkrnlyng: try checking again17:43
Yanieland opening the store app17:43
Yanielbut don't install anything from there17:43
krnlyngYaniel: did it a few times now, still says up to date :(17:45
krnlyngi've tried switching to mobile data connection but that makes no difference17:45
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krnlyngi selected factory reset (had nothing important on it yet) and now the screen is black, does it mean i need to power it on manually or do i have to wait?17:56
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mornfallAL13N_work: no I mean it's been spammed18:01
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Claudypower it on o.o18:11
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krnlyngClaudy: did it already :) i was just wondering if i might abort something important18:12
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Claudy^^18:12
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* pvanhoof happy today, i have received my jolla from fedex18:20
Aardpvanhoof: you're giving back what we give you? :p18:20
pvanhoofAard, yep :)18:20
krnlyngah finally, updating :)18:20
EztranYeah... updating before anything else really looks the way to go.18:21
pvanhoofAard, can't use the proto for streetuse, need to flash and break it too often18:21
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Aard:)18:21
pvanhoofcopying data over from n918:21
krnlyngi wonder how many jolla phones have been sold so far :)18:25
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Claudyi hope at least enough for the company to sustain ^_^18:28
Claudythe box would look nice as a perfume box though18:29
krnlyngClaudy: :) i hope the same18:31
Claudy"sailfish perfume, for that lusty coder inside all of us"18:32
krnlynghmm does somebody know what the default su password is?18:33
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Eztrandevel-su uses nemo's password, which you can set in the Settings.18:33
attahthere is none.. devel-su works like sudo18:34
krnlyngah i see18:34
krnlyngthanks18:34
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QuuClaudy: you like the vibrating tit? :p18:40
pvanhoofkrnlyng, im already happy that there is at least one company in europe writing smartphone software, and yeah let's hope enough for the company to sustain Claudy18:43
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pvanhoofbuteo-mtp, is it keeping stuff awake? Because my windows pc asked me to convert a mp4 file, and by the time it was done converting it came back telling me that my jolla device stopped responding and that the file couldn't be copied18:49
pvanhoofsounds like a bug to me18:49
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krnlyngafter only a few hours playing with my new jolla, my n9 seems extremely small :D18:50
pvanhoofMeanwhile jolla device's lcd went black, i noticed already that quite a lot of functions stop working correct whenever that happened (ssh connections failing, although a socket should be kept alive and power management shouldn't kill it)18:50
Stskeepspvanhoof: it's for sure not nokia PM..18:50
Stskeepsit's android reality18:51
pvanhoofAndroid has anything to do with buteo-mtp? how?18:51
Stskeepswell, android wakelocks etc18:51
pvanhoofJolla's kernel uses android wakelocks?18:52
Stskeepsit does, it kinda has to in order to have any PM whatsoever18:52
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pvanhoofi'd say that while a usb copy over mtp is taking place, buteo-mtp needs to keep stuff for usb awake18:53
Stskeepsnokia spent ages to take a device and turn it into nokia style power management18:53
Stskeepsi do agree and it's a bug if it doesn't18:53
pvanhoofI hate to sell people, but didn't Peter De Schrijver work on the n9's PM a lot? I know he's still in HEL working for NVidia now. I can get in touch with him .18:54
Stskeepsyeah i know, but, in practice, android PM is the way to go; we get a full device adaptation from an ODM18:54
pvanhoofI'm not an expert in PM though18:54
Stskeepsit's about using the knobs correctly though18:54
Stskeepswhich we aren't doing to a full extent yet18:54
pvanhoofok18:54
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pvanhoofso basically, i just triggered a android wakelock bug with my jolla18:55
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Stskeepswell, rather, that the device got permission to fall into deep sleep18:55
Stskeepsbecause nothing stopped it18:55
pvanhoofisn't there any way that buteo-mtp could tell it not to?18:55
Stskeepssure18:56
pvanhoofthen do that18:56
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Stskeepshttps://github.com/nemomobile/nemo-keepalive18:56
pvanhoofbesides, it's connect to laptop-usb, it's charging anyway18:56
Stskeepsyeah that part was a bit mysterious18:56
pvanhoofill check it out18:56
Stskeepsi would have expected it to stay up on us18:56
Stskeepsb18:56
pvanhoofnod18:56
pvanhoofthe converting of the mp4 happens at the other side im guessing, upfront the actual copy, so if that takes too long and deep sleep gets triggered .. this happens?18:57
pvanhoofI haven't debugged this, but speculating that would be my best guess18:58
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pvanhoofssh on my n9 had the same problem ..19:00
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Stskeepscheck dmesg perhaps on device side19:01
pvanhoofmeh, haven't enabled developer mode yet.19:04
pvanhoof(on this new device)19:04
pvanhoofbut it looks like this is easily reproducable19:04
pvanhoofjust any large mp4 made with n9, copied to windows, then copied over mtp to jolla19:05
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pvanhoofok, tomorrow-evening ill try to reproduce19:10
pvanhoofperhaps it's a tracker bug anyway and then it's m fault :)19:10
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pvanhoof_im making windows crash ...19:12
pvanhoof_lol :)19:12
pvanhoof_<pvanhoof> ok, tomorrow-evening ill try to reproduce19:13
pvanhoof_<pvanhoof> perhaps it's a tracker bug anyway and then it's m fault :)19:13
pvanhoof_<pvanhoof> happened again for another file, so that means hundreds of poor jolla owners are having to deal with this19:13
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Venemo_jheya :)19:30
Venemo_jSfiet_Konstantin: your app is getting more awesome :)19:31
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slateWhen is the christmas going to come, in form of an update. Cant wait. :)19:33
SpeedEvilwait - what's his app again?19:37
stephgone of them is the FB19:37
stephgthere may be others19:37
SpeedEvilah19:37
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AL13Ni got my SIM working, bastards had me pay extra to re-activate it19:42
AL13Nbut phone works nicely19:42
AL13Nactually calling, that is19:42
SpeedEvil:)19:42
AL13Nthere is one thing, and that's if the other end hangs up, it seems not to hang up on your end19:43
AL13N(only after successful connection)19:43
AL13Nbut i had seen this reported19:43
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Venemo_jman, old Harmattan habbits die hard19:44
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Venemo_jI managed to quit trying to swipe from the bottom when wanting to get to the homescreen19:45
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krnlyngi cant find pkg-config for the jolla phone :O?19:54
Stskeepsit's there19:55
krnlyngoh19:55
krnlyngi searched for pkg-config19:55
Stskeeps Name: pkgconfig19:55
krnlyngyeah :)19:55
krnlyngthanks19:55
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tango_so what does mulkvisti mean in finnish?20:35
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slatefucker.20:36
Pnuutango_: SoB, bastard, dickhead20:36
tango_so this https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1509186_481045012006016_1417502175_n.jpg is not really true?20:37
Pnuu:-D20:37
slate:)20:38
tango_ok, maybe some finns use it as a term of endearment 8-D20:39
tango_I think I'll call my friendfeed client for sailfish 'mulkvisti'20:39
tango_how do you say feed in finnish, as in rss feed20:39
Pnuusyöte20:39
tango_mulkvistisyöte20:40
tango_lol20:40
Pnuuasocial media, here we come!20:40
Gorithany news about "stock rom" available for public? :)20:41
GorithJolla support seems to be a little bit slow with a real response20:41
Gillytango_: a great name xD20:42
joonahoiGorith: stock rom?20:44
tango_I'm so happy I came across this word20:45
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tango_Pnuu: it's all in the whitespace after all20:46
tango_asocialnetwork20:46
krnlyngStskeeps: hm now i cannot find in which package the GLESv2 headers are20:46
joonahoitango_: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_vulgarities20:47
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tango_why is alfred nussi classified as a finnish vulgarity?20:51
tango_oh it's not a real name20:51
tango_lol20:51
joonahoi:D20:51
tango_I thought it was something like the santorum thing20:52
mikmatango_: because of the saying that includes that "name" in it ;)20:53
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tango_mikma: yeah, found on the page explanation 8-D20:54
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Gorithjoonahoi: data to flash my phone by myself, because I have now waited more that two weeks to get reply to my question about where the service is20:56
joonahoioh :/20:57
slaterecovery not working?20:58
Gorithnope20:58
slateI once read somewhere that the partitions are pretty messed up on the device so its hard to release a factory image for public20:58
Nicd-anyone enabled verbose boot on jolla btw?20:59
slateCan be totally wrong, but someone may have more info on subject.20:59
Stskeepsslate: well, long story short we cannot release factory images due to 3rd party bits being in it21:00
slateliek, myriad-stuff?21:01
Stskeepsnah, hw adaptation21:01
slateokey.21:01
slateEnough of explanation for me, how about you Gorith :)21:02
tehdelyStskeeps: that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me TBQH21:04
tehdelynokia certainly released factory ROMS for n9 and i'm sure there was plenty of 3rd party stuff in there too21:04
tehdelyas it is, you're already "distributing" it by selling people the device with those 3rd party bits on it21:04
tehdelyit's not like distributing the source code...21:05
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tehdelynot being able to rescue my own device is kind of a bummer21:05
slateToo small company, no leaks.21:06
tevesamsung had a same problem with tizen phones, no OTA updates due to GPU driver policy.21:07
faeniltehdely, I guess it's in Jolla's best interest to help you do that, so that customers will be able to fix it for themselves...so just wait :)21:07
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Gorithwithout working (jolla)phone waiting is not so funny21:08
faenilGorith, I can imagine... :/21:08
Gorithat least I hope to get some more info about actual repair21:08
Gorithsome more than that: https://jolla.zendesk.com/entries/30716267-Repair-Service-for-customers-of-Jolla-com21:08
Gorithand stupid questions to go to settings of other half and check the version number etc.21:10
slateI can run a repairshop for jolla.com customers in my garage, just supply my jigs, sw:s and parts.21:12
slate:)21:12
tehdelyrepair service for me is:21:12
tehdely* ship device to friend in Finland21:12
tehdely* pray21:12
tehdelyso i will just try to keep the phone in good working order ;)21:12
tehdelyi spilled tea on it yesterday.  it was v. embarrassing21:12
tehdelythankfully the Jolla did not mind21:12
ottulotehdely: did it float?21:13
tehdelyit was not enough tea to find out21:13
slateDont know if optima-service has imei-tracking on dna-sold devices or not.21:13
pahartiktehdely: What kind of tea did you perform that accident with?21:14
tehdelyjasmine tea21:14
tehdelyi was at a chinese restaurant21:14
slateWorst case, you send your device to them via a friend and they boomerang it back because of wrong retai-spot21:14
tehdelyit was in one of those little cups, which was only half full21:14
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pahartiktehdely: Tea flavour acknowledged21:20
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keithzgWait...no flashing utility? Really? Uh oh. That makes it a bit scary to use and tinker with a Jolla compared to the N9 or a Nexus device. Factory images are critical for peace of mind.21:23
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Jonnikeithzg: thats why next recovery partition will have a shell option, so you can flash with dd any partition that you want.21:30
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slatedepending on the existence of the backups?21:33
keithzgJonni: Oh, well that's good. Better in some ways, even (although worse in others).21:34
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AL13Ndoes 2G take less power than 3G ?21:48
AL13Nsince i have no mobile data/internet, i should connect to 2G only?21:48
Quuyes21:48
Quuerh, not sure21:49
Quuprobably?21:49
Stskeeps3g carries voice, too..21:49
tehdely2G does take somewhat less power.  3G will be more reliable though, esp. with handoffs21:50
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ShadowJKWithout data transfer, 2g vs 3g standby is almost entirely network dependent which one will consume more power21:52
AL13Ni can call fine when i select 2G only21:52
ShadowJKIf both 2g and 3g have good coverage (and by that I mean neither is even close to showing anything except full signal bars), then 2g is going to give you a little bit better battery life21:53
keithzg2G also has more of a tendency to burst-transmit, so it can be nice and nostalgic to hear the "beep beepbeepbeep" of audio-stage interference in nearby speakers (especially tiny unshielded ones like alarm clocks) when you're about to recieve a call ;)21:53
AL13Noic21:53
* keithzg 's carrier is 3G only anyways, though.21:53
ShadowJKIn "mixed" environments, where sometimes 2g is better and sometimes 3g is better, I would leave it on the default dual mode "3g preferred"21:54
AL13Nso, if 2G coverage is very good everywhere in the country, and 3G is "available" in alot of places... generally 3G will draw more power since it's likelier to be further away21:54
ShadowJKyep21:54
AL13Nthen i'll take 2G only21:54
clauAL13N, on N9 2G took less power than 3G21:54
AL13Ni figured the extra bandwidth would draw a bit more power too21:55
clauand wifi less than 2G21:55
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clauI tested N9 with the power usage monitor (don't remember the exact name, will have to look)21:55
ShadowJKWell, for data transfer, 2g and 3g behave very differently.21:55
clauwell, 3G ate a lot more than 2G, even without transfers21:56
claujust being connected ate a shitload21:56
pp_4g being even worse I believe :)21:56
ShadowJKthen something somewhere was seriously misconfigured.21:56
dschoepenote that 2G is a lot less secure. I saw a talk from a few years ago where they were able to listen in on 2G calls using four $20 phones. (without impersonating a base station or so)21:56
clauI think I still have some records saved on the phone21:56
AL13Nphone traffic is by definition insecure21:56
keithzgYeah the security on GSM is...weak, to say the least.21:56
clauthat's been known for years21:57
clauor decades, by now21:57
ShadowJKThe thing about 3g is that, roughly speaking, any single data packet in either direction uses as much power as maximum bandwidth transfer, for an operator-dependent time, up to 5 seconds21:57
keithzgI think it was confirmed recently that the poor encryption used was indeed due to pressure from intelligence agencies.21:57
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dschoepeAL13N: well, it depends on the attacker model, I suppose. for 2G you need to invest significantly less effort21:58
ShadowJKSo imagine IRC, and enough channel activity that something happens every 5 seconds, it's the same power consumption as downloading a big file21:58
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clauok, the name of the tool on N9 is Energy Profiler21:58
artemmaVenemo_j: ping21:58
claulet me see if I have any history saved21:58
AL13NShadowJK: is that the same for 4G?21:59
ShadowJKI remember N900 getting warm in my pocket on 3g, when I had forgotten to turn sshd off, and someone was trying to bruteforce my password :)21:59
AL13Nit's a sign21:59
pp_with 4G you get to send IP packets over sctp directly to the operator code more or less21:59
ShadowJKAL13N; hard to say. And also, so many different things called 4G and lte..21:59
pp_s/code/core/ :-)21:59
AL13Nic21:59
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ShadowJKit's the cdma part that makes 3g non-optimal for frequent low-rate data transfer22:00
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ShadowJKand I believe lte in europe also uses cdma type schemes22:00
ShadowJKwhereas china uses TDD which is similar to 2g in power use for frequent low-rate transfers22:01
claumean values for: wifi = 13.76 mA, 2G = 71.53 mA, 3G = 108.32 mA22:01
clauI think I ran it for some minutes only22:01
pp_e.g. http://www.slideshare.net/geovedi/hitb-labs-practical-attacks-against-3g4g-telecommunication-networks is interesting :-)22:01
claunote, I don't remember if it was 2G, or 2.5G22:01
ShadowJKJolla connected on 3g has standby time of over a week anyway (with tohd stopped)22:02
clauyes, Jolla handles 3G very well22:02
clauthat's why I don't bother with 2G anymore, just in places where I know 3G signal is weak and I don't want it to keep switching between 2G and #g22:02
clau3G22:02
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ShadowJKany phone not generating or receiving lots of random data should be quite similar actually22:03
clauI remember that my Nokia E71 handled 3G much worse than N922:03
* keithzg will probably have to rely on WiFi-only for his Jolla, heh.22:04
clauI always assumed that 3G implementation was improved over time22:04
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ShadowJKeven N900 connected to 3g has standby time of "Gosh, over a week has gone by and it's still alive, fuck this batterylife test I want to use it again" :P22:04
clau:D22:04
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pp_2g is great for geocaching in the forest on the n900 :-)22:05
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clauwhat about neo900? what's the state of the project?22:06
ShadowJKI found I wanted 3g when in the woods with N900 and Maep :)22:06
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ShadowJK(and a really fast microsd for Maep to abuse its database on)22:07
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keithzgHeh my sister got rather frequent free upgrades to the microSD cards she was using in her N8 and Cowon D2 around that time, since I kept buying ones, finding out that they were actually pretty slow, and handed them off when I would impulsively buy another in hopes it was faster ;)22:10
AL13Nwhat is actually a "fast µSD"?22:11
AL13Nhow fast is that?22:11
ShadowJKA-data ultra high speed, Samsung Pro, Sandisk Extreme (available in two speed ranges, the slower range is actually faster for small files)22:12
AL13N(and reliable)22:12
ShadowJKI consider anything over 30 IOPS fast.22:12
ShadowJK(as most are 1-4)22:12
keithzgThe listed speeds for (micro)SD cards are kindof meaningless when you aren't just copying files on or off them. Complex operations with many tiny reads and writes seem to not at all be what manufacturers generally optimize for.22:12
ShadowJKindeed22:12
AL13Nic22:13
ShadowJKThe cards I listed above are the best I've found for tiny writes22:13
keithzgI mean, the same is true of SSDs to a degree, but at least there are sites out there which run extensive tests on different usage scenarios.22:13
keithzgHmm good to know.22:13
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keithzgI hadn't found any that really seemed too good to me before I eventually just got an N9 ;)22:14
ShadowJKThe basic constraint, simplified, of the underlying flash storage is: Reads can be random access with little penalty. Erases can only take place on big blocks on the order of 4-8Megabytes. Such a block can be written sequentially 4-16k at a time.22:15
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ShadowJKSo the tiny cpu inside a uSD often ends up in a situation where it does read-modify-write of 8M when the host wanted to write 4k in some random place.22:16
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cvpany news about new Update ? will arive this month ?22:17
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Eztrancvp: their Twitter says yes. https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/42601346702877491222:18
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Venemoartemma: pong22:20
cvpEztran: cool thanks :D22:22
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