#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2015-03-29

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lazy_bumIt seems that Jolla changed time. When I set alarm yesterday it counted without the "missing" hour.06:05
Stskeepsyeah, at least it woke me up at the right time06:07
Stskeepsit sometimes depends on what timezone you're in and if your mobile network is feeding you bad information06:08
Stskeepstimezone/location06:08
ninnnuI didn't even pay attention to the counter06:08
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Madman1diehy, anybofy familiar with the Facebook integration?07:27
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NokiusWho remember the name for the test-appliaction to test the screen, ... on the Jolla08:47
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Sail0rNokius: csd tool?08:49
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Sail0rjust type csd in terminal08:50
NokiusSail0r: yes thanks was only remembering c**08:50
Sail0r:)08:50
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coderus*#*#310#*#*08:53
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mornfalleh, my jolla is behaving really weirdly... and it's becoming very slow10:14
mornfallright now I ended up with app cards showing up on the lock screen10:14
mornfalloh and they also show up in the launcher10:15
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raa700soo btrfs balance?10:17
mornfallwhat about it?10:17
coderusmornfall: read this one: https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/10:19
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mornfallwell, brtfs is a pretty crappy filesystem, but I don't think it's at fault here10:21
mornfallalthough... well, I'll check10:21
mornfallif the phone boots10:21
mornfall(it's also taking forever to reboot these days)10:21
MikaelaI wouldn't say crappy, but very experimental and probably not so production ready10:22
MikaelaOn Jolla I have only encountered the balancing issue, but on laptop I always have to run btrfs check --repair /dev/sda? if the battery happens to run out (and laptop is confused on what the battery status actually is :()10:23
mornfallit was supposed to be production ready more than 5 years ago10:23
mornfallso I say it's crappy if it can't be debugged to usable state 5 years after the original estimate10:23
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mornfalloh indeed, seems that btrfs *is* at fault here... even though I never even hit 50% usage10:26
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mornfallso this is something that *everyone* will start hitting soon, and factory reset doesn't help10:31
mornfallI hope jolla understands that the next update is probably going to kill all phones that didn't have a balance done on them10:33
entilhow would we know if that's happened?10:33
entilstskeeps can add a rebalance to the beginning of the update ;P10:33
Mikaelafrom what I understood, the next upgrade will bring automatic balancing10:34
mornfallwell, it better rebalance *before* the update because it probably won't finish otherwise10:34
Mikaelaentil: how do you know that you need balancing? There are instructions for checking the need at https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/10:34
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mornfallI only did a couple photos and recordings on the main memory, and besides that only software updates10:34
entilI very much doubt jolla will screw this up10:34
Mikaelaif I understood correctly, there will also be automatic balancing when you start the upgrade10:35
Mikaelabut I am not sure if that is the next upgrade or the following upgrade10:35
mornfallwell I hope the current iteration rebalances before downloading10:35
mornfall(the next update that is)10:35
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entilbtrfs fi show says ERROR: unable get label Inappropriate ioctl for device :D10:38
mornfallI hope the tablet will use ext4... :|10:39
entilbut 13.75GiB used, "When 'btrfs fi show' command shows 13.75GB used of 13.75GB for 'devid 1' (see example below), new chunks cannot be allocated anymore and the random problems begin. Depending on what, when and where is written, write either succeeds or doesn't."10:39
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entilso apparently I do need to rebalance, then10:39
entilno, I'm reading this wrong, used is 10.7510:40
entilso I'm ok for three more gigs10:40
Nicd-entil: the ioctl error is normal10:41
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mornfallI'm not sure the future of btrfs is exactly bright, given it's a ZFS knockoff and Oracle bought ZFS in the meantime along with the rest of Sun.10:43
Stskeepsi much prefer zfs over btrfs10:43
Stskeeps:P10:43
mornfallwell, I wouldn't really put ZFS on a phone either :P10:44
Stskeepsme neither10:44
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entilStskeeps: will the tablet be using btrfs?10:44
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entilie. is there a reason to be running btrfs on mobile devices? like does it survive power outages particularly well compared to ext4?10:45
mornfallit survives power outages particularly poorly10:45
Stskeepsentil: i don't think so10:45
mornfallthe tempting features are snapshots and subvolumes, I suppose10:45
mornfall(maybe encryption, compression, if those work at all yet)10:45
entilI kinda wonder what's so tempting about those on a phone ;P snapshots are supposed to be replaced by a cloud service that gets all your backupable data as it hits the disk on the phone10:46
mornfallentil: I think the idea with snapshots is that you snapshot before upgrading and can roll back „for free“ (*if* it works)10:46
Liekelvm can do snapshots too though10:46
entilStskeeps: I have no real opinion, but it sounds like btrfs is causing issues so the safe bet would probably be to not do it10:47
mornfallLieke: not equivalent (those that have features to support those scenarios are experimental in LVM too)10:47
mornfallbut I don't think the upgrade rollback option with btrfs is robust enough to justify its own existence10:48
Stskeepssome of these things you often find out when it's too late10:49
Stskeeps:P10:49
mornfallif your rollback mechanism breaks your system more often than the upgrades themselves, well :)10:49
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mornfallactually, I'd totally reformat my phone to ext4 if I was given the option :-) I think a clean start is in order anyway10:50
Stskeepswell, is theoretically possible to do on your own10:50
Stskeepsif you have a microsd to offload onto10:50
mornfallyeah, but I don't really want to end up in a completely unsupported situation10:51
mornfallalso, no serial access, so duh10:51
Stskeepslive life dangerous10:51
Stskeeps:P10:51
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mornfallI already do by using a jolla phone :P that's bleeding edge enough for me10:52
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Stskeepsi use jolla development branch on my phone.. it certainly is interesting at times10:53
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mornfallhm, even after -dusage=66, btrfs is eating 3G of extra space for itself10:56
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YanielStskeeps: well you *do* have serial access or the like...11:10
Stskeepsi do11:11
Stskeepsit's been ages since i last used it11:11
Stskeeps:P11:11
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Yanielbut it is there11:42
Yanielwhich gives a lot peace of mind when experimenting11:43
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juhajIs it normal for Jolla to ship its phones to a country X (UK in this case) but only supply country Y (EU in this case) AC plug?12:26
stephgjuhaj: yep12:26
juhajThey only ever ship EU plugs?12:26
stephgthink so12:27
juhajThat's user-friendly12:27
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phlixithey skipped the earplugs, i wonder why they ship a powersupply...12:27
stephgmeh, not particularly fussed in either case personally12:28
juhajBut then, again, the experience with jolla has been so utterly disgusting all around that I am not surprised at all. And yes, I still want the phone and I still want the company to succeed but they REALLY need to improve their customer service.12:28
juhajI've got dozens of EU adapters in the house (most of them in use though) so I don't particularly mind, but the average buyer would, even if jolla only ever targeted geeks12:29
entilit's probably stated somewhere that it comes with EU only12:30
stephgwell it's USB so anything would do and to be frank TJC isn't exactly overrun with disgruntled .ukians complaining about the lack of power :P12:30
juhajThe kind of service (not sending the voucher code for three weeks despite several requests to the support that they do so; useless order tracking webside which said "in picking" the whole time from placing the order till a day after I had the phone – at the very least they could have provided a fedex/dhl/ups/whatever tracking code; and now the plug)12:31
r0kk3rzjuhaj: be interesting to see what the tablet ships with, the jolla phone 1 was never really targeted at anyone other than early-adopters/geek types12:31
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entilI wonder if even that is true, that it's targeted at geeks12:31
entilin finland it was released as beta and that stigmatized it for a while, but I think even that's fading by now12:32
stephgjuhaj: I got tracking codes when shipped to the UK, lots of people did iirc12:32
entilwives and girlfriends are buying jolla12:32
juhajr0kk3rz: Indeed. But as I said, the signs for non-geek-die-hard-fanatics are not promising – and that is what worries me12:32
juhajentil: This is a wife's phone in fact12:32
r0kk3rzjuhaj: and what im saying, is that the jphone1 isnt perhaps not the best example12:33
entilthe missus had to wait a long time for her phone as well, jolla gave her an estimate on delivery and it took like a week longer, and she wasn't particularly happy about that but she wasn't using words like "disgusting" and "not surprised" either12:33
r0kk3rz*is perhaps not the best example12:33
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juhajI want jolla to succeed but they don't have the signs of something that anyone but a geek would want to buy from12:33
entilthere are geek shortcuts though, like hearing rumors on irc that jolla sold out their stocks and have to restock, so I could toss that in her direction12:34
juhajr0kk3rz: None of this is phone1 related: it's customer service. I don't believe their customer service is separate for separate products12:34
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r0kk3rzwell, the AC adapter is12:35
juhajI hope jolla has someone hanging around here and taking notes ;)12:35
entiljuhaj: and you politely told jolla that whoever's in charge of logistics should ensure the shipping info is updated properly?12:35
juhajr0kk3rz: Well, yes, sort of12:35
entilhoping for someone to take notes of irc is probably the shittiest thing to do12:35
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r0kk3rzthe rest is dependent on order load12:35
entil*off12:35
r0kk3rzi got my phone quick and easy, painless process12:36
r0kk3rzbut ymmv of course12:36
entilranting on irc is the least helpful thing anyway :P12:36
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juhajentil: their customer support channel itself is so disgusting that I cannot be arsed. We'll see how the tablet or the second phone (probably ordering that next month) goes if it improves12:37
r0kk3rzthe ac adapter is part of the SKU, and that whole process is likely to be completely outsourced12:37
entilbut being literate is more helpful, and so follows a reading from the page of shop.jolla.com "EU adapter (UK adapter not included)"12:37
juhajentil: Ranting on irc is the best way of finding out if there is reason to rant. Like it seems there isn't in the case of the AC plug and probably not even the shipping info as others had had it ok. And the first problem O obviously contacted them about already12:38
r0kk3rzi guess its not great if you're coming from an n9 or such, but anyone coming from a recentish android phone is going to have an ac adapter already12:38
r0kk3rzim using an aus-plug samsung one12:38
juhajr0kk3rz: N9 is mircousb, so any n9er would have the plug, too12:39
r0kk3rzoh is it? my bad12:39
entiljuhaj: I'm not going to make excuses about shipping ids, that sounds like something they should respoond to when asked ("sorry, we fucked up!" or "the post office's fault")12:39
entiljuhaj: but if you really are concerned about this thing, you swallow your disgust and contact jolla12:39
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r0kk3rztablet launch is a known factor so you would expect that they would be able to get everyones shipped smoothly12:51
r0kk3rzjphone orders is a little different, they dont want to have lots of money locked up in stock12:52
r0kk3rzand people can order at any time12:52
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mornfallof course people call me while btrfs balance is still running13:09
ln-"the person you are trying to reach is balancing btrfs at the moment, please hold"13:10
mornfalland now it finishes, pff13:11
mornfallanyway13:11
mornfallit's still tying up 2.5G for no reason at all, after a full rebalance13:11
mornfallso out of the 16G of advertised storage I can use what, 6?13:13
mornfall(my $HOME is 4.3G now and btrfs fi says there's about 2.5G left... so I guess that's 7G total)13:14
mornfallalso, f- off indiegogo I don't want to upgrade anything... *sigh*13:16
r0kk3rzive used 4.5gb of home, and btrfs fi says i have 4.6gb left13:18
mornfallthat's still a bit short I guess, but workable13:19
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r0kk3rzyeah 9gb is a bit less than 1613:19
mornfallI wish I could plug in an SD card that'd run on eMMC speeds13:19
mornfallr0kk3rz: well, I can live with a couple GB for the OS13:19
r0kk3rzyeah13:19
mornfallbut yeah I'd expect 12G for the user at least13:20
r0kk3rzi do wonder if they've used btrfs compression or not13:20
r0kk3rzor whether thats possible13:20
mornfallI hope not13:20
mornfallbecause I don't think it works13:20
mornfallnot on the wreck of a kernel jolla runs anyway13:20
r0kk3rzwe are running an old version of btrfs i suppose13:21
r0kk3rzforget who i was talking to, but someone said it makes a nice difference on their desktop machine13:21
mornfallI guess that depends on how fast your CPU is13:21
mornfallcompared to your IO13:22
mornfallif they use a spinning drive, then compression is going to be a win-win13:22
r0kk3rzyeah thats true13:22
mornfallon a sluggish arm with flash storage, it may hurt a lot13:23
mornfall(although compression for the sdcard would be probably a net win, for compressible data at least)13:24
mornfall(too bad I mostly keep compressed media on it)13:24
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SQUelcheroh, another tablet spam mail :>13:27
M4rtinKI think you should be able to check if compression is enabled with the btrfs tools13:28
M4rtinKbut I don't think it is13:28
mornfallM4rtinK: I think if you try to enable it, the phone will just explode. :D13:28
M4rtinKyep, with btrfs this outcome is quite plausible :)13:29
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caternhey, does anyone know if the Jolla tablet is going to be using an Android kernel? that is, an out of date kernel?15:07
caternthis determines whether I buy it or not: whether or not I can use the latest kernel on it15:07
falfai wonder, what do you need a specific kernel for?15:09
caternkernel hacking :)15:09
caternso I don't need a specific kernel, I need the latest kernel that I've compiled myself :)15:10
falfaim not sure jolla uses any android kernel15:11
falfaandroid uses android kernels15:11
caternthe phone uses Android kernels for hardware compatibility15:11
falfanot entirely true it seems15:13
falfahttps://together.jolla.com/question/66020/android-kernel/15:13
caternokay, an Android kernel version15:14
caternstill a problem15:15
r0kk3rzsources are available15:15
r0kk3rzyou can compile it yourself15:15
caternyou know 3.4 is three years old now?15:17
caternanyway15:17
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caternI'll wait till someone who actually knows can answer15:17
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entilif you're a kernel dev, and they ship an older kernel, maybe you can participate in upgrading it?15:17
caternno, because the reason that an older kernel is shipped is for compatibility with proprietary drivers15:18
caternwhich I'd rather not reverse engineer15:18
caternand reimplement15:18
caternproprietary Android drivers for the hardware, that is15:19
entilI just patched the -ck kernel on my nas-like openelec raspberry pi, it was very straightforward, but from what I've read kernel hacking on sailfish isn't trivial anyway15:20
entilit would help to have a build.sh script that does it all :D15:20
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r0kk3rzcatern: stskeeps is your man if you want an official answer from jolla on the matter15:26
r0kk3rzbut yes, afaik its an android kernel, because thats all you get from ODMs these days15:26
r0kk3rzotherwise yes, you need to reverse engineer all the proprietary drivers, which is lots of effort15:27
caternr0kk3rz: do you have any specific knowledge about this? because, it's Intel, which changes the situation a bit15:27
caternwell15:28
caternStskeeps: what's the kernel version on the Jolla Tablet? :)15:28
entilhttps://blog.jolla.com/jolla-tablet-hardware-adaptation-team-day-zero-bootstrapping/15:29
entilwhat strikes me odd in that post is "First thing we discovered as we rummaged through the device was that it has a 64-bit Linux kernel and a 32-bit software stack (userland)."15:31
r0kk3rzcatern: yeah its intel, but afaik its still using hybris, which means android kernel15:31
entilnot even that is known in advance?15:31
r0kk3rzthere might even be some alien-dalvik stuff that requires it, but im not 100% sure how dalvik works15:32
caternentil: that makes sense, Dalvik is probably the limiting factor there15:32
entil"This means that we have to use Sailfish OS for 32-bit X86, which it is already ported. You cannot mix 32 bit and 64 bit code in same process." so jolla is forced to use some kind of userland stuff because of android?15:33
entilusually drivers are in the kernel and that would be ok15:33
entilto use a 64-bit userland15:33
tiwakeI don't really like android15:34
tiwake(but who here does? :)15:34
caternhm, so this is bad news, but it still could be okay15:34
caternbecause Intel graphics drivers are open which is the major thing anyway15:35
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caternso maybe the Bluetooth drivers are proprietary or something and so they need to use an Android kernel for that, but I don't really care about Bluetooth (well, I do, but I can give it up)15:35
entilit's apparently the way of the world, it's just weird that there are such strong userland ties to the kernel that jolla has to go 32-bit15:35
entilon the other hand, it's a tablet (and a phone) so who cares as long as it does its job, and is open and hackable15:37
entilthat's lightyears ahead of the competition15:37
ortylpentil: I do not know, if they are forced to go 32bit, but from my experience on a machine with that little amount of RAM I would not want to waste it on 64bit pointers.  I have already seen applications, that in 64 bit consume twice as much memory!15:38
caternso, I'm still curious what Stskeeps has to say about this, then15:39
tiwakenot quite use twice as much memory15:39
entilthe text I copypasted off the blog says "we have to use"15:39
entiland I'm ok with not wasting memory on pointers15:39
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tiwakebut yeah, and the compiled binaries are larger too15:39
entilI'm just surprised that the android thing runs so deep that it somehow affects userland15:39
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ortylptiwake: yes, it depends on the specific case, but I have seen it in real life, and then convincing managers, that our clients need to upgrade their 10-year hardware if they want even think of 64bit binaries....15:41
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tiwakeheh15:46
tiwakeortylp: people really have no clue about software, hardware, and why certain ways of doing things are far superior... sometimes I want to claw my eyes out15:47
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tiwakeortylp: thats what I like about jolla, they actually do know, and not commanded by people who don't :)15:50
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r0kk3rznothing wrong with not knowing about these things, so long as you realise it and defer to people who do15:51
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entilis it a btrfs thing if the messaging app takes forever to start?-)16:54
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entilfiguratively of course16:54
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CosmicDuck_Hi there, I have problems to mount a ext3 formatted 32 GB sd card. The card had to been formatted on my linux machine without any problems. I put mp3 and ogg files on them but the jolla cannot find the fs on partition 1. I tried to fsck the sdcard part 1. Now I reformatted the sdcard p1 again with my jolla but mounting is still not working. fsck looking good now. Any idea whats happened?18:56
stephgCosmicDuck_: that should just work18:56
stephgso you have a partition or did you just create the filesystem on the whole device?18:57
CosmicDuck_Where can I found logs for the mounting parts? I tried to mount with mount-sd.sh add /dev/mmcblk1p1 but mount |grep mmcblk1 shows nothing.18:57
CosmicDuck_Ah ok. I can do it on the whole device. No problem.18:57
stephgno wiat18:58
stephgwait18:58
stephgnot sure if it'll be detected if you do that18:58
stephgwhat does blkid /dev/mmcblk1 /dev/mmcblk1p1 show?18:58
M4rtinKCosmicDuck_: try journalctl -b | grep /dev/mmc18:59
M4rtinKas root18:59
CosmicDuck_ /dev/mmcblk1: PTTYPE="dos"19:00
CosmicDuck_ /dev/mmcblk1p1: LABEL="JollaSD32GB" UUID="e9755ba9-bd4a-4e05-92a7-8877268b6f3c" SEC_TYPE="ext2" TYPE="ext3"19:00
stephgok so it's there and that looks fine19:00
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stephgcan you fsck it on the phone?19:01
stephglike that, the automounter should see it automatically19:01
CosmicDuck_yes, no errors.19:01
stephgunless you're on a crazy old version of sailfish19:01
CosmicDuck_not really. Last update is only few weeks ago19:01
stephgdo you have a mount point for it in /media/sdcard?19:01
stephgi.e. does /media/sdcard/e9755ba9-bd4a-4e05-92a7-8877268b6f3c exist as a directory?19:02
CosmicDuck_will check. I bashed the mount-sd.sh with -x and the last messages are:19:03
CosmicDuck_ MOUNT_OPTS=dirsync,noatime,users19:03
CosmicDuck_+ ACTION=add19:03
CosmicDuck_+ DEVNAME=/dev/mmcblk1p119:03
CosmicDuck_+ '[' -z add ']'19:03
CosmicDuck_+ '[' -z /dev/mmcblk1p1 ']'19:03
CosmicDuck_+ systemd-cat -t mount-sd /bin/echo 'Called to add /dev/mmcblk1p1'19:03
CosmicDuck_+ '[' add = add ']'19:03
CosmicDuck_++ /sbin/blkid -c /dev/null -o export /dev//dev/mmcblk1p119:03
CosmicDuck_+ eval ''19:03
CosmicDuck_+ '[' -z '' ']'19:03
CosmicDuck_+ exit 119:03
Nicd-don't paste here :|19:03
Nicd-use a pastebin19:03
stephgthat blkid line looks fishy19:03
stephgbut I have to feed people, bbl19:03
CosmicDuck_...hmm, maybe i must use bl11 and not blk1p1?19:03
CosmicDuck_ah, I must not use /dev with mount-sd.sh19:04
CosmicDuck_ok, that was my fault.19:05
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CosmicDuck_Now it's working. I must use mount-sd-sh add mmcblk1p1 and not /dev/mmcblk1p1...19:05
CosmicDuck_Thank you for your support. I will now try to mount the card on my pc to write my files on the sdcard.19:06
CosmicDuck_PS: Is it possible to use linux tools to the phone via usb-connection?19:06
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Mnsuanybody like to guess what would be the correct paths to enter in Jolla to get carddav syncing my contacts from an owncloud server? tjc gives various results reporting working/non-working combinations, some I already tried with no luck19:10
M4rtinKCosmicDuck_: it does not export the card or internal storage as a block device by default (mass storage)19:10
M4rtinKCosmicDuck_: if that's what you mean19:11
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stephgCosmicDuck_: how do you mean? personally I don't use MTP or any of that, just enable developer connection and then rsync the files over ssh to it19:20
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stephg^^ what he said :)19:20
CosmicDuck_I would like to use blkdevice export :-/ But all other is welcome. What's with sync protocols? mlsync or something available? bt export looks also not possible :-(19:21
CosmicDuck_For my sd card access maybe I will use rsync with ssh connection, but for this I must not use a usb connection.19:22
M4rtinKiSCSI ;-)19:24
M4rtinKon a serious not just mounting the storage with SSH over USN networking works just fine :)19:25
* tbr votes for RDMA19:26
stephgCosmicDuck_: developer mode exposes usbnet so you can just ssh over the USB19:26
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CosmicDuck_I would like more to sync my adressbook, calendar and schedules, notes, sms, something :-)19:27
CosmicDuck_19:27
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