#jollamobile log for Friday, 2015-11-20

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TMavicahttps://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/KaHxpAhJ/20151120_1120_1.jpg04:00
TMavicaFake news?04:00
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StskeepsTMavica: i'm not sure what it says.. :)06:38
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Nicd-there is a new article in today's Aamulehti, but only in paid version06:39
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Nicd-titled: "The optimistic Jolla sailed into a tumultuous financing crisis"06:40
Stskeepsfinnish newspapers really love negative stories, don't they?06:41
Stskeeps:P06:41
Nicd-I'll try to get my hands on the paper magazine today to write down the main points06:41
Nicd-yes, we do06:41
WalterNI think that defines all news papers06:41
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Nicd-but even more than that we love negative internet commenting06:42
Nicd-you wouldn't believe all the hate Jolla has got right from the start06:42
Nicd-from people who have never even seen the phone06:43
Stskeepscomment forums on newspapers are a good way to make you hate your fellow citizens06:43
Stskeeps:P06:43
tigeliI didn't read a single comment on the media yesterday06:43
AL13Ncoderus: basically, your idea was that re-adding jolla account would also add the proper repositories?06:45
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svuorela|..has any one of the indiegogo people received a tablet yet ?06:46
Stskeepssvuorela: yes, they have06:46
Stskeepsnot a huge amount, but many has06:46
Stskeepsso, it's not vaporware06:46
AL13N1st wave, i assume06:46
Stskeepsjust not in the hands of all backers06:46
AL13Nyet06:46
* svuorela will be busywaiting at the mailbox for another month then.06:49
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AL13Ni keep myself busy while waiting06:50
TMavicaJolla is over soon06:50
TMavicaTime to think what phone I need move to06:50
TMavicaI dont think it can withstand long time06:51
StskeepsTMavica: well, let's see how the world looks in a few months06:51
Stskeepsi don't think the jolla spirit is in any way dead06:51
TMavicaI dont want also.06:52
TMavicaAll main char left, whats the cause06:52
Stskeepswell, let's be honest, the real soul of the company are the developers :)06:52
Stskeepsand the foot soldiers06:52
TMavicaU, Marc, Tim Mc, Jason Rice, many many is leaving06:52
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Nokius_workStskeeps: +106:53
Stskeepsi'm 'leaving', as in, be able to determine my own priorities, but hope still to do some work for jolla06:53
TMavicaLets see06:53
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Stskeepsand it'll hopefully make more sense why in a few months, because it wasn't about company situation06:53
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TMavicaLet it simple, no money no hope06:56
Stskeepsah, well06:56
Stskeepswhen we started jolla, we didn't have money either06:56
Stskeepswe were unpaid for several months, enthusiastic to start the story :)06:56
TMavicaBut now it needs06:56
TMavicaMoney can solve all the things, no money = dead06:58
TMavicaI really dont want said that06:58
TMavicaBut it truth06:58
pp_there have been git commits in the last few days :P06:58
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AL13Nwe'll cross that bridge when we get it07:06
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TofeTMavica: no money = need to look for money. That's the basic routine for a startup.10:35
Tofe(or even for some big companies... look at Amazon...)10:38
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Aciidany new news?10:53
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ced117nop :-(11:00
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Stskeepsmoo rigo11:02
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* SfietKonstantinW thinks about converging ubuntu touch and sfos11:13
SfietKonstantinWStskeeps: do you think that this can even be done ?11:14
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mornfallwhat is going on?11:20
shpanki'm asking myself the same thing11:20
StskeepsSfietKonstantinW: ugh :)11:20
shpankall i read here are conspiracy theories11:21
ggabrielmourning prep for some, optimistic thinking for others, indifference for the rest perhaps11:21
SfietKonstantinWggabriel: indifference for the majority of people11:21
SfietKonstantinWjolla is not yet known enough11:21
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lainwir3dyeah, converge with ubuntu touch : make ubuntu touch users understand that sailfish is better and make them switch11:23
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ggabrielisn't ubuntu's stack pretty much the same underneath the ui?11:23
Stskeepsno, quite different in many regards11:23
ggabrielok11:23
shpankubuntu uses apt, sailfish os uses rpm11:23
shpankone of the many differences11:24
shpankand quite major, if you ask me11:24
tbrubuntu touch uses click and moves to snap11:24
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tbrwhat's more relevant than the package format is how they approach separation11:25
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lainwir3dand doesn't they use Mir ? eeeeeeeeeewww :-(11:25
tbrwell it shouldn't matter for the app though, should it?11:25
lainwir3dtrue11:26
mornfalllainwir3d: because the ancient wayland on jolla is such a blessing :P11:26
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ggabrielmornfall: ancient? my desktop uses X still...11:27
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mornfallggabriel: ancient in X terms is an entirely different thing than ancient in wayland terms11:27
ggabrielmornfall: so you mean ancient in X = 20yo vs 60yo; ancient in wayland; 15yo vs 20yo? (in person terms) :P11:28
mornfallhuh?11:28
ggabrielignore my analogy,  just a joke11:28
mornfallI mean that wayland changes more in a year than X in 511:28
ggabrielsure11:28
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mornfallwe are basically stuck running a software stack that was forked 3 or so years ago from upstreams and is entirely out of touch with those11:31
Stskeepsmmmm, maybe not totally true11:32
jolowas just about to order two phones today... but is it still a good idea? if they are going belly up there is not guarantee... I was hoping for new phone hardware maybe soonish? doesn't look like it :/11:32
Nicd-jolo: there is an Intex phone coming out early next year, but nobody knows the specs11:33
mornfallwell yes, you can still get new python and (more importantly) openssl... i.e. the portable bits of the stack11:34
mornfallbut that's not really how 'modern' linux works11:34
jolo@nicd: thanks for that! Appreciate it!11:35
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Aciidhttps://twitter.com/AnttiSaarnio/status/66733703291447296011:43
Aciidstill waiting11:43
ced117ha, didnt saw that one11:44
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ln-*didn't see11:47
ced117RIGHT11:47
ced117oops11:47
ced117right, thanks ln- :)11:48
Hellemeh, I want phones to shrink again :(11:48
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r0kk3rzHelle: time to build a shrink-ray then11:48
SpeedEvilSometimes, yes.11:48
Hellehave recently used my SE W890i again because I needed a long battery life phone that would fit in my pockets during an event11:48
Helleand it's so much more practical in those uses11:48
r0kk3rzjphone size is ok, just need the bezels to be a bit thinner11:49
SpeedEvilHelle: Wait a couple of years, and then smart-watches will get 3.5" displays.11:49
Milo-hm, 23 hours since Aarnio mentioned upcoming blog post. I'm guessing they'll inform that no new tablets will be produced at this time.11:49
joloi am currently back on a nokia 6020. heck. last charged 3 days ago and still > 50% battery life.11:49
Sailor12328_Milo: something along these lines11:50
Milo-jolo I last charged my jolla during sunday-monday night. 64 % charge.11:50
HelleSpeedEvil: I actually use a smartwatch, but currently pondering the Pebble Time Round to upgrade to a smaller one with11:50
r0kk3rzjolo: saw someone whip out a 3310 the other day, thing of beauty11:50
Hellemy Pebble is mostly just "give me all my data feeeeeeeeds"11:50
Milo-r0kk3rz you do know they make 3310 cases for iphones now :p11:50
r0kk3rzof course they do11:51
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mornfallI forgot my 3310 in Rio :\11:52
Hellethe W890i is the thinnest, smallest phone I own11:53
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Helleand when I need an actual small, long term usable phone, it's a winner11:54
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SpeedEvilHelle: I have a n7 2013 - if it was 10mm wider, I could not comfortably and securely hold it in one hand without strain.11:55
SpeedEvilProblem is that at point-of-sale, people rarely consider long-time use.11:56
HelleSpeedEvil: yeah11:56
HelleI am pondering to find a cheap Android phone with similar small specs as a secondary phone, and probably to try and port Sailfish to11:56
Hellebut I just know they aren't really out there11:57
SpeedEvilThere are some11:57
SpeedEvilbut, they are chinese and undocumented11:57
HelleSpeedEvil: most of those are thicker, because of battery life expectations in China11:58
jonwilI have yet to see any Android phone with good specs and all the things that I like about my Nokia N900 like the landscape physical keyboard. All the phones with a landscape physical keyboard are either low-spec and crap or impossible to get (or are limited to only one carrier like Verizon)11:59
Hellejonwil: no chance, keyboards are expensive to do right12:00
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SpeedEvilhttp://www.banggood.com/ZOPO-ZP330-4_5-Inch-Android-5_1-1GB-RAM-MTK6735-1_0GHz-Quad-core-Smartphone-p-981688.html - say12:00
SpeedEviljonwil: ''12:01
jonwilMore than that, any phone with hwkbd is going to be much thicker than normal phones and no-one wants a phone that thick anymore :(12:01
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Hellebut for me the major issue is a requirement of, "fits into slim jeans pockets even"12:03
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jonwilI dont have a need for my phone to fit into a pocket, I keep my phone in a shoulder bag :)12:03
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Helleat conferences, if I am doing something organising, I don't want to carry around a purse12:04
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joloi don't care much how thick the phone is. needs to be in a bumper case anyways.12:05
Hellenot really12:06
jolomilo: yea, that was one of the reasons I want one.12:06
HelleI never bumpercased any of my phones and the worst that happens is that corners wear12:06
jolohelle: tell that to my nexus 4 :/12:07
caitlinbclumsy people something something nice things12:07
Nicd-Helle: cargo pants ;) if you don't mind looking like a dweeb12:07
Helleeh, no12:09
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Nicd-always space for phone, wallet, keys and a pocket to spare \o/12:11
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rigohi Stskeeps13:20
* rigo was distracted by some meetings13:20
Stskeepsjoin the club ;)13:21
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HtheBany official statement given already?13:54
Scelthttps://blog.jolla.com/ -> F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F513:54
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HtheBScelt: ctrl+F513:55
HtheBor CTRL+R13:55
ggabrielsome people are saying that step 1: open source sfos; step 2: ???; step 3: profit13:55
HtheBggabriel: wait what?! wasn't sailfish os open already (/scarcasm)13:56
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HtheBoh the irony =)13:56
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tbrggabriel: other people say, it's too late for it to achieve 4 in monetary terms, but at least might secure a future for existing hardware owners14:01
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r0kk3rztbr: it would be sad to see it locked up somewhere to rot14:05
r0kk3rzat least we have all the mer/nemo bits14:05
tbrand I have backups of the open source compliance drops14:05
ggabrielif worse comes to worse and jolla is no more and nobody buys the closed bits to continue something, it'd be nice if it gets dumped somewhere so that the community picks it up, yes14:06
ggabrielbut atm i don't think that'd do any good14:06
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M4rtinK_tohkbdwell, Jolla needs help and the closed bits prevent many people from helping14:11
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M4rtinK_tohkbdalso future proofing as mentioned above14:12
r0kk3rzyeah well open webos hasnt really gone anywhere14:12
r0kk3rzand lots of people liked that as well14:13
r0kk3rzyou almost wonder if samsung would buy it and roll it into tizen or something14:13
M4rtinK_tohkbdthe stuff will be hardly opensourced once the last person switches off the lights and closes the door14:13
tbrit takes time and it is not a magic bullet in itself14:13
ggabrieltbr: +114:13
M4rtinK_tohkbdcertainly14:13
ggabrielsamsung would be bad news, but better than nothing14:14
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut would still hate to see the same thing repeated for the third time14:14
r0kk3rzor idk htc, since sammy has tizen, lg has webos14:14
M4rtinK_tohkbdn900/n9/Jolla...14:14
r0kk3rzactually sony could be a contender there14:15
ggabriellg installs webos in "smart" tv's14:15
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r0kk3rzgabriel9: and smart watches14:15
cehtehsame fail as nokia did with the n900 .. aiming for big business, forgot their roots, have no faith and trust in the community14:15
M4rtinK_tohkbd+114:15
pdanekSamsung is developing high-end Tizen phones.14:15
ggabrielr0kk3rz: uhm... japanese company innovating with sw?14:15
cehtehif they acknowledge their role as underdog and hacker device and be more open then there would be far less trouble and they would still get food on the table14:16
ggabrielcehteh: I don't know how you reach that conclusion14:16
mornfallr0kk3rz: with no new hardware to run the OS, I don't think getting the source is going to be very useful, mid-term and beyond14:17
r0kk3rzr0kk3rz: yeah i know.... thats why they'd buy a built-ish solution, rather than start their own from scratch14:17
r0kk3rzggabriel:14:17
M4rtinK_tohkbddont forget hadk14:17
sledges;)14:17
M4rtinK_tohkbdthere is a lot of potential Android phone targets14:18
ggabrielhadk never forgotten14:18
ggabrielaren't the intex ones those? :P14:18
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: android phones suffer from the same problems as the jolla phone14:18
cehtehi feel that jolla development is somewhat distanced from the community developement, things/ideas get not adopted fast enough, possibly only because they dont have the manpower to do, but also because things are not open enough and because they dont trust the community and want to keep in strict controll14:18
M4rtinK_tohkbda big difference from Freemantle/Harmattan14:18
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ggabrielcehteh: sure, but how changing that would make jolla get more money?14:19
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: android and modern linux don't play well together14:19
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: you get a forked kernel that runs on the SoC and you are stuck with that forever14:19
ln-cehteh: do you know any commercially successful semi-opensource project that was not implemented in strict control?14:19
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: or you could try to build your stack on freedreno/kms/dri instead of libhybris and vendor GL14:22
cehtehggabriel: at least it would make them burn less money14:22
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cehtehthen prolly more satisfied customers, more sales14:23
ggabrielcehteh: they'd probably burn a lot more money by controlling it14:23
Raimcehteh: open-sourcing is actually more work as the integration workload is much higher when accepting patches from everyone14:23
M4rtinK_tohkbdmornfall: yeah, im aware or the android kernel & driver madness14:23
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: that'd probably work on jolla-phone-generation hardware14:23
cehtehand they could focus on real development for improvements and future things14:23
mornfallbut jolla phone itself doesn't give you serial, so it's a crappy development platform14:23
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut its getting so bad that hopefully something will be finally done about it14:24
cehtehRaim: i know, but they could work at least in some hierarchical way where some people from the community can do some intrgration with a good chance that it will be accepted14:24
mornfalland jolla the company is clearly not interested in running on free drivers14:24
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ggabrielit's hard to code drivers14:24
mornfall(even the tablet uses libhybris, AFAIK...)14:24
ggabrielwell, time consuming14:24
pp_"android hardware" is the cheapest, I'm sure14:24
M4rtinK_tohkbdI can kinda uderstand that14:24
M4rtinK_tohkbdyou can get at least some support for the android drivers from the manufacturer14:25
Raimcehteh: just look at the sailfish browser, pull requests are open for months already and nobody gets to them14:25
mornfallM4rtinK_tohkbd: you mean from intel? :)14:25
M4rtinK_tohkbdnot really for the open ones as long as the hardware authors dont contriute14:26
mornfallbut yeah, ARM SoCs are crazy14:26
* cehteh thinks about simple things .. like that (official) apps cant install service, camera cant store on sdcard, android apps cant store on sdcard, low power mode etc ... this things could be brought to a point where they are done by the community and then just need some offical blessing14:26
locusfpure adaptations are many times more difficult vs hybrizs14:27
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JohannCould a community based development a little like the diydrones work for Jolla ? They provide hardware and all the software is developed by the community. The company offers a lot to the most active community members (from free shirt to free drones) I guess something like that could work for phone development.14:27
M4rtinK_tohkbdno multi user chat, no proper long list scrolling, no apis for status and lockscreen14:27
M4rtinK_tohkbdetc14:27
cehtehthere are plenty of workarounds for that each with its own problems, but the biggest is that whatever you hack, its not anytihng offical and may conflict with a way some future software update will solve the problem14:27
cehtehM4rtinK_tohkbd: yes that too14:28
cehtehthese things could be done by the community, and will greatly enhance the user expericence14:28
ggabrieli'm not sure that a significant amount of people stopped bying the jolla because of all that14:28
M4rtinK_tohkbdof course its not free14:28
Raimcehteh: I agree that work could be contributed by the community, but rather in small-sized tasks (maybe even as a bounty hunt)14:29
M4rtinK_tohkbdand you cant command contributors what to do14:29
cehtehggabriel: it give some unpolished unfinished impression, i heared from few people who brought it but dont use it because it lacks so much14:29
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut you can still get a lot of usefull stuff14:29
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Raimcehteh: the main thing is that people scratch their own itch and it may not be what the maintainer of the component want14:29
M4rtinK_tohkbdnot to mention open ecomming slowly the default14:30
cehtehRaim: bounty would cost money, i wont do that. just some discussion *withhin* the comunity how things could be solved, some ok from jolla.. and when done it will become integrated asap14:30
M4rtinK_tohkbdI know a lot of people who lost interest in Sailfsh once they lerned the OS is not fully open14:30
ggabrielcehteh: ok, but they bought it14:30
cehtehggabriel: and then spread bad words14:31
ggabriela lot of people buy iphones and don't use them too14:31
cehtehone sold .. 5 chances for selling lost14:31
ggabrielsame with iphones14:31
cehtehyes .. thats the problem .. jolla must not compare/compete with apple or whatever else14:31
cehtehapple runs forward, with closed source, appshops, itunes, iwhatever .. everyone runs blindly behind14:32
ggabrielso, jolla tried to tackle a lot of the ui issues in sfos 2.0 by making it look more like ios/android14:32
ggabrielso there you go14:32
M4rtinK_tohkbdyou cant compete by imitating them14:33
M4rtinK_tohkbdno one has enough money14:34
M4rtinK_tohkbdand it alienates zour fans14:34
mornfallwasn't apple nearly bankrupt before the first iPod?14:34
M4rtinK_tohkbdthey want your distict product, not an apple clone14:34
cehtehjolla could leave a lot of ongoing fixes and improvements to the community, if they opensourced the stuff, then they could focus on real development, maybe porting on other android devices. i know a lot people who *would* pay for licensing sfos for their old android phone14:34
cehtehi would do for my wifes note214:34
mornfallcehteh: you keep talking about a community... as if there was one14:35
Raimcehteh: why would I need to buy a license if it is open-source?14:35
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cehtehbecause some people prefer precompiled packaged stuff with support14:36
mornfallRaim: redhat happens to be doing rather well14:36
TemeVcehteh: how much is the "lot of people" who would pay for it?14:36
Raimmornfall: but that's a different business14:37
mornfallRaim: yes, but 'who would buy if it's oss' isn't an argument14:37
Raimmornfall: support on third-party hardware will be a problem. the original manufacturer of the phone will not provide you any and Jolla will not be able to give everyone support.14:37
louisdkI experienced this while trying to install pactmanager through Warehouse on my friends Jolla Phone: http://i.imgur.com/ckW05IZ.png - I don't think Jollas servers is down since the Store still works.14:37
cehtehhow should i know .. but jolla already showcased sfos on andorid devices, would be nice just to go the last step to make it offical14:38
Raimmornfall: for Redhat, that's no problem because you buy your server hardware without OS anyway and the support liability is solved14:38
sakustarNicd-: any recommendations on cargo pants? my last pair lasted like a month or two? :(14:38
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TemeVcehteh: if there would be 20k people paying for it, 20€ each it would get like 4-5 devs for a month14:39
sakustarripstop was alright but the seams came apart14:39
TemeVoh wait, i missed a zero there14:39
mornfallRaim: well, a phone manufacturer could see some value in an ongoing subscription model... you pay $$$ and ship them a bunch of devices and jolla takes care of keeping your customer systems up to date14:39
TemeVyou'd get handful of developers for a year14:40
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TemeVor something like that14:40
TemeVit aint really a business14:40
M4rtinK_tohkbdmornfall: that would be my idea how it should work14:40
mornfallnonetheless, for all I can tell, they haven't been able to sell this to anyone14:40
Raimmornfall: a phone manufacturer you say? one of these that did not want to license Sailfish OS should take a new business model?14:41
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M4rtinK_tohkbdmornfall: they would get security updates, feature updates & sustanability14:41
cehtehanyway .. for me it looks like jolla cant compete because progress is too slow, because they are underpowered, because they try to do everything by themself and dont trust the community enouhg and dont open up enough14:41
M4rtinK_tohkbdthey could advertise "ongoing updates for at least 2 years due to Jolla partnership"14:42
cehtehi have my device since monday now and it still feels like there are a lot functionality regressions compared to the n900, and that are user impressions, not die hard developer things about lacking apis etc14:42
mornfallRaim: well, redhat customers are often internal service departments... who answer to their internal customers; it's not really that different from the phone business14:43
Scelthttp://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf14:43
mornfallRaim: Apple uses that model much more so than Android though14:43
mornfallthe post-sale expenses they have are reflected in the selling price, too14:44
SceltPRESS RELEASE: http://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf14:44
Raimmornfall: not really, I can't install OS X on other hardware...14:44
ced117yep it's out14:44
mornfallRaim: so what? they don't sell OSX14:45
Raimmornfall: if I take my broken smartphone somewhere and tell them I modified the OS, they will simply refuse to do anything with it. that's the current state of mobile devices.14:45
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Raimmornfall: you void your warranty by making changes to the software of your phone. that is not the case for a PC or laptop.14:46
mornfallI have no idea what you are talking about.14:46
mornfallOr how it is related to business models...14:47
Raimmornfall: support liability. you can't just sell binary software blobs and be done.14:47
mornfall"can't"?14:48
mornfallit is what many android vendors do14:48
cehtehyou can sell hardware which runs free software, done14:48
Raimmornfall: now the customer comes to you and complains that the camera is broken. you assess it's a hardware problem and send them to the phone manufacturer. they will tell you, your OS is not supported and you will not get any replacement.14:48
Raimmornfall: why would I as a customer take this risk?14:48
mornfallI still have no idea what you are talking about...14:48
mornfallNever mind.14:49
cehtehhey .. i am really pissed that the jolla camera cant (easily) store photos on the sdcard .. let me sue jolla plz :D14:49
yestoallRaim: not if it's a Fairphone or the like14:50
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HtheBdoes someone has a new F5 button form e?14:51
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Raimyestoall: that's very unique as they offer self-repair. but only when you are out of warranty already.14:57
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coderusHtheB: http://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf15:00
coderusno need for f515:00
ArtVandalaeI wish there was more information :(15:02
ggabrielthere's enough information there15:03
the_mgthoho, marry xmas... layoffs in december is one of the fugliest things to do15:07
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HtheBcoderus: thanks15:10
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tadzikthe_mgt: I'd argue that it's better than not getting paid in the month after christmas eve15:11
ced117well, maybe they dont have a choice :-/ but as it's written in the press release, it's "only" a temporarily layoff15:11
cehtehat least they hope so .. but..15:12
CoolgeekI don't think they are doing this with a smile on their face15:12
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ced117right15:12
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Coolgeekhope it will be for the better15:13
tbrcehteh: well it's the finnish YT instrument, a glorified hire and fire simplifier. In this case it means that there is a possibility to resume the working contracts, but after some deadline the contracts terminate automatically, IIRC.15:13
tbror rather ced11715:13
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ced117didn't know that, thanks for the info tbr15:14
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Nicd-oh damn, what news15:23
ggabrielthey still need the extra financing tho :P15:23
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Milo-still no blog post.15:32
cehtehredhat should just buy jolla and show them how to do it :D15:32
tbrMilo-: there's a press release though15:32
SceltMilo-: http://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf15:33
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ggabrielcehteh: you mean by having ibm, hp, oracle and friends contributing code?15:34
roboroI wonder what this means for those of us waiting for tablets... I guess no time soon :(15:34
Milo-nothing about tablets :/15:34
lainwir3dwait... what ? I thought everyone already received their tablet ?15:35
cehtehanyone buyed the tablet because he 'really' needed one?15:35
Milo-lainwir3d only 200 of them has been shipped.15:35
ggabrielnot me :P15:35
lainwir3dhaha15:35
ggabriellainwir3d: you're trolling :P15:35
lainwir3dsorry :P15:35
cehtehi mean tablets look to me like toy gadgets mostly15:35
ggabrieltoo soon, too15:35
cehtehmaybe i am wrong .. but15:36
lainwir3dcehteh: well, I didn't needed one but now that I got it I admit I'm using it quite a lot15:36
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Yaniela tablet would have been very handy in language classes15:36
chem|stYaniel: a table... not a tablet ;)15:37
cehtehyes its all about would could should .. but there is no pressing need for a tablet, its just an luxory accesoire15:37
chem|stcehteh: +115:37
cehtehhi chem|st15:37
Lieke_just like a smartphone15:37
chem|sto/15:37
cehtehyeah we could use dumbphones :D15:38
cehtehor drums15:38
chem|stand out... (dog wants to get wet again!)15:38
lainwir3dhehe15:38
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cehtehwell i admit maybe i am wrong, but i dont see that much value in a tablet, having one would be nice, but there are to few real uses where i sufficiently benefit from one15:39
lainwir3dtrue15:39
sakustarebooks15:39
lainwir3dit's kind of "optionnal"15:39
djselbeckEspecially with this lack of applications ;)15:39
cehtehconsidering its expensive to develop, expensive to maintain, expensive on everything15:39
cehtehputting the companys future on the success of a tablett is a bit risky15:40
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cehtehimo they should try to improve the phone, maybe a new one with better specs (2G ram, usa bands, updated processor) and focus more on the softtware to make it outstanding15:41
djselbeckcehteh: I agree15:42
sakustarand a decent camera would help :)15:42
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cehtehand hardware keyboard :D15:42
sakustaryes15:42
chem|stcehteh: that is what they actually did, the tablet is an HK effort, what they did to SFOS was to get it ready for branding and licensing15:43
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cehtehchem|st: i think this approach was wrong, they tried to reach for the high fruit and struggling if not even failing now15:43
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cehtehall they need to do for feeding 100 people is selling good hard and software15:44
chem|stcehteh: you mean they should never aim for licensing sfos to manufacturers but have their own devices instead?15:44
chem|stthe hardware R&D is expensive and in their scale dead fish15:45
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cehtehthey could port and licensed it to end users themself15:45
djselbeckLicensing would be fine if there would be a release. Even ubuntu has multiple phones out15:45
cehtehyes, but high fruit and optional, esp in the current state15:45
cehtehno one would license a OS which vendors future is uncertain15:46
cehteh(and while the OS still feels like a beta release)15:46
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cehtehi am a bit disappointed. there are so much cool things and usability is imo much better than android, but there are also still so much ugly corners15:48
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djselbeckcehteh: The browser ;)?15:48
cehtehnah simple things15:49
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M4rtinK_tohkbdI dont think the browser is that bad15:49
djselbeckI think the browser is one of the biggest problems because if your OS lacks application support you should at least have a good browser15:49
M4rtinK_tohkbdthe core is solid15:49
rigois it really that bad at jolla?15:49
cehtehi already saied .. that the camera cant save photos on the sdcard15:49
djselbeckBut very outdated15:49
cehtehthat could be solved by one developer in one afternoon15:49
djselbeckThen the question is why no one did it?15:50
M4rtinK_tohkbdcould have more features in the UI but that's it15:50
cehtehthe thing is many peole DID it .. published hacks to make it work on tjc ....15:50
djselbeckAlso on the tablet the browser almosts everytime closes it self because of memory problems15:50
ggabrielbrowser works better than any mobile browser on android fwiw15:50
djselbeckggabriel: not really15:51
ggabrielsometimes ff doesn't even start15:51
cehtehjust evaluated few solutions, decide on one, bless it offical and integrate it15:51
lainwir3dI think the OOM killer is badly tuned..15:51
ggabrielso i don't want ui gimmicks if it can't even start15:51
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M4rtinK_tohkbdcehteh: thats not the only such mystery15:51
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M4rtinK_tohkbd(btw, I reported the firs camera-no-using-card question long ago ;-) )15:52
cehtehbrowser is ok so far, lacks a lot things from a full fledge browser but then having a ported firefox/fennec/chromium might be the better choice15:52
djselbeckI don't think the UI of the browser is the problem. I think the core is. It is based on firefox 31 and this is really old15:52
eugeniothey are porting it to 38, though15:52
ggabrieldjselbeck: again, works much better tan any other mobile browser i know for the sites i use, but ymmv15:52
ggabrielalso, it's open source, so go and fix it....15:52
djselbeckYeah thought about it but currently I don't have that much time.15:53
cehtehyes ... if the browser is open source, why does jolla waste money on it improving it on their own, let the community do it, only watch and assist when there is no progress15:54
djselbeckIf only they would do it with other applications.15:54
cehtehdito mail client15:54
djselbeckI would've improved the musicplayer long ago if the sources would've been available15:54
cehtehi installed k9mail because the buildin mail client is unusable for me15:54
cehtehwell all this things are rather external an not core components15:55
cehtehthey should focus on the core15:55
M4rtinK_tohkbdI remember someone posting a patch for the callendar ui15:56
M4rtinK_tohkbdon together, on the ml15:56
M4rtinK_tohkbdit fixed somwthing quite serious even15:56
M4rtinK_tohkbdonly to be totally ignored15:56
cehtehyeah15:56
M4rtinK_tohkbdthat was pretty rude15:57
cehtehthat sux, doesnt help jolla, doesnt motivate any community15:57
cehtehso work to do .. bbl15:58
sakustarso jolla only needs some funding? why isnt the government doing anything15:59
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StskeepsM4rtinK_tohkbd: it's a bit hard to accept anything outside a CLA, as qt also doesn't accept patches through their BZ..16:01
HarhaanJohtajarefugee crisis and trying to cut spending elsewhere16:01
sakustaroh yeah we live depression now16:01
sakustarno new soy factories for a while :(16:01
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M4rtinK_tohkbdsure, but if I remember correctly ther was *zero* response16:02
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M4rtinK_tohkbdnot even "sorry we don't accept patches" or "this is what zou need to do"16:02
M4rtinK_tohkbdI'm sure he would do that - if somene replied16:03
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M4rtinK_tohkbdso correction - there was some response16:08
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut more or less "we have no process for this and would rather implement this ourselves"16:10
ggabrielthere's an faq for that too16:10
ggabrielwhich pretty much says the same16:10
ggabrielsmells of IP etc16:11
ggabriellawyers are overkill sometimes16:11
M4rtinK_tohkbdant latest version of the patch from jan 2015 rotting on list with no reply16:11
M4rtinK_tohkbdso when you say "people don't contribute"16:12
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M4rtinK_tohkbdthis might be one of the reasons16:12
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ggabrielwell, for closed things I understand Jolla's position16:14
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ggabrielfor open stuff (e.g., pending pull requests in browser) it's maintenance overhead, but that happens on a lot of projects16:15
M4rtinK_tohkbdhttps://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2015-January/005534.html16:15
StskeepsM4rtinK_tohkbd: well, no real defense for that16:15
M4rtinK_tohkbdhttps://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-November/005208.html16:15
M4rtinK_tohkbdthreads in question16:16
M4rtinK_tohkbdwell stuff happens16:17
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut thing like this could and should be avoided16:17
ggabrielwell, there is an approach to open sourcing stuff that Stskeeps explained in the meeting16:18
M4rtinK_tohkbdand, IMHO, its now more important given the current situation16:18
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Stskeepsnaturally debt restructuring makes it even more complicated16:18
ggabrielbut that won't fix certain things such as delays accepting code and so oin16:18
M4rtinK_tohkbdespecially if that proposal comes through16:18
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Tofeggabriel: at least the guy who fixed the issue can run the fixed version on its phone ;)16:19
M4rtinK_tohkbdnote that even "your code is ad and you should feel bad" is a valid response to contributions16:19
M4rtinK_tohkbdas long as technically valid16:19
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut any response is better than no response16:20
ggabrielM4rtinK_tohkbd: been reading too much linus lately? :P16:20
Tofeggabriel: :)16:20
ggabrielTofe: well, that goes without question... all hail qt/qml16:20
M4rtinK_tohkbdalso you dont need to take v116:21
M4rtinK_tohkbdpatches quite often go through many revisions before they are merged16:22
M4rtinK_tohkbdand the end result is then usually much better than the original patch16:22
rigo:((16:23
eugenioheh, our favourite troll strikes again: https://twitter.com/jollatablets16:23
ggabrielhaha16:25
Tofeone-sided openess ;)16:25
eugenio(probably related to the wrong use of twitter mentions by Saarnio: https://twitter.com/AnttiSaarnio/status/667729790518951936)16:25
ggabrielis knowing how to use twitter a respectable skill these days? :P16:26
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eugenioI hope, otherwise I wasted 7 years of my life :)16:29
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Stskeepsi use a mac, with macos x.16:31
Stskeeps:P16:31
* Tofe faints16:31
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eugeniothat hurt16:31
Teguhackintosh might be interesting to try16:31
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Stskeepssshing into a 12 core 64gb linux server16:32
pdanekStskeeps: that will be in phone in 20 years...16:33
pdanekehm16:34
pdanekin 1016:34
Tofepdanek: actually 12 cores are for next year, Mediatek is already ready16:34
M4rtinK_tohkbdthe Monav routing data for modRana are generated on a 48 core machine with 256 GB of RAM16:37
M4rtinK_tohkbdkindly possile due to the NLP lab of the local university :)16:37
ggabriellet's see whose is bigger :P16:37
M4rtinK_tohkbdand Power 8 can doe even crazier setups16:38
M4rtinK_tohkbd*do16:38
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Tegu/676/16:40
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elfioso jolla will live a bit more, right?16:42
elfioI've just read the press statement16:42
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Milo-[A17:05
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pdanekDo you believe Tizen can be the next big Linux thing in Mobile?17:29
Stskeepsbwhaaha17:30
Stskeeps:P17:30
pdanekSamsung is developing high-end Tizen devices, so why wouldn't it?17:30
Stskeepsdid you try one?17:31
Stskeeps:P17:31
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M4rtinK_tohkbdits still 2.x, right ? ;-)17:31
pdaneknope17:31
pdanekStskeeps: did you?17:31
StskeepsM4rtinK_tohkbd: riht17:32
Stskeepspdanek: over several times17:32
M4rtinK_tohkbdand even Rasterman already quit, right ?17:32
Stskeepshe quit?!17:33
Stskeepsthat i didn't know17:33
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M4rtinK_tohkbdchecking17:34
Stskeepsaccording to linkedin still there17:35
M4rtinK_tohkbdmust have been some noise17:35
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M4rtinK_tohkbddidn't know he worked for Rec Hat before17:36
Stskeepswhy would you quit a executive position that you have, due to them being stockholm syndromed to your technology?17:36
Stskeeps:P17:36
M4rtinK_tohkbdoh god that dailywtf thread17:37
Stskeepsah.. yes17:37
M4rtinK_tohkbdI blame both sides though17:37
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M4rtinK_tohkbdbunch of trolls/kiddies vs hardcore old school nerd-way17:38
M4rtinK_tohkbdfor that thread17:38
Stskeepsi heard rumours that it stopped all tizen productivity in different units for several days until it eventually was blocked at the firewall17:39
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M4rtinK_tohkbdlol17:41
rubdosSo, what can the community (and especially a local IT consultant with a Jolla phone) do for Jolla to get them back on track?17:41
M4rtinK_tohkbdalso, tizen and productivity in the same sentance!17:41
rubdosEvery bit helps, and I'd love to do my bit. Or byte.17:41
Stskeepsrubdos: we have another meeting on thursday17:41
rubdosThat's a week :o17:42
rubdosAnd will that meeting be here/online, or will we receive another press-release-pdf?17:42
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rubdosAbout a year ago - at the kickstarter of the tablets, I tried to convince a client of mine to buy the developer pack - or even more. I had a plan with them. It's a pity that client decided to stop communicating with me --"17:44
rubdosindiegogo*17:44
HtheBso, i've read the statement... but what about the tablets?17:45
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pdanekhttp://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_is_allegedly_working_on_highend_tizen_phones_due_next_year-news-15059.php17:57
rubdosBut... that's samsung.17:58
pdanekRead the comments.17:59
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pdanek"... I had greater hope on jolla. but jolla already stoped the development :("17:59
pdanekThat's how recent Jolla's news can be perceived by public.18:00
SfietKonstantinWpdanek: well18:00
rubdosDon't know about you, but I had my last update some weeks ago, not months ago like iOS or Android.18:00
SfietKonstantinWlet's see how it goes18:00
rubdosBut yes, that's how I perceive it too.18:00
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rubdos"Jolla goes under" is about the only thing on my twitter, except for Paris-stuff.18:00
rubdosI'd love to hear something else, because for me, that's the end of smartphones.18:01
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Aciidneo900 is around the corner18:01
Aciidwelcome back physical qwerty18:02
M4rtinK_tohkbdehm18:02
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pdanekNeo900 can't run Android apps, can it?18:03
rubdosneo900 doesn't look like a all-in experience, nor as a competitor to Android/iOS.18:03
rubdospdanek, not that we neeeed android apps... :p18:03
pdanekof course we do18:03
AciidI dont think theres nothing preventing youn installing something else  or something as a middleware on it18:03
pdanekelse you can't rely on your phone as single travel device18:03
pdanekand need 2nd phone or laptop18:03
Aciidthe hardware is capable18:03
kimmolii can live w/o android apps until next MOT18:04
rubdosMOT?18:04
kimmolikatsastus18:04
kimmolii need to use OBD to clear fault codes ;)18:04
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rubdosoh, vehicle test? :P18:05
AciidI just use my laptop18:05
M4rtinK_tohkbdafaik there are multiple efforts to make an open Android runtime18:05
pdanekUbuntu is making one?18:05
M4rtinK_tohkbdhopefully one of them matures eniugh to be usable18:06
pdanekWhat about KDE Plasma Mobile?18:06
pdanekIs the development quick?18:06
M4rtinK_tohkbdshaslik and the sailfish community effort for example18:06
M4rtinK_tohkbdi have seen it18:06
M4rtinK_tohkbdbuggy as hell18:06
M4rtinK_tohkbdbut definitely interesting18:07
pdanekIn what way better than Sailfish?18:07
rubdosSo, this channel has given up on SailfishOS nad Jolla? :P18:07
M4rtinK_tohkbdjust note its just a de/shell, not a full distro18:07
M4rtinK_tohkbdat least thats the current plan afaik18:07
rubdosdamn18:07
pdanekyes, Ubuntu Phone based OS with KDE on top18:07
pdanekthat's enough18:07
pdanekUbuntu Phone is great! except the UI :D18:08
M4rtinK_tohkbdnot sure how thats supposed to work in the moile sphere though18:08
rubdosThen use a Jolla? :P18:08
pdanekenough apps, better security than Sailfish, large community and soon they could get android support18:08
M4rtinK_tohkbdubuntu based just because blue systems people only know ubuntu :p18:08
pdanekrubdos: nobody has given up on Jolla, we all have Jolla here and hoping for bright future18:09
locusftheres this guy who plans on doing a live system switching between cyanogenmod and sailfish18:09
rubdoslocusf, wtf, sounds terrible :P18:09
pdanekM4rtinK: blue systems people?18:09
rubdosBut, Ubuntu phone is something I'll probably never approve of. Because "Ubuntu"18:09
locusfrubdos: well run a app and then switch back to sailfish18:09
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locusfits a much more viable plan than shashlik18:10
locusfaquaris is locked but meizu mx5 dev edition is not18:10
pdanekrubdos: what's wrong about Ubuntu?18:10
Stskeepslet's try a discussion tonight18:10
StskeepsAlternative history: What if Jolla never existed? - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1488802#post148880218:11
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locusfso in theory there is a distant possibility to run sfos on mx518:11
pdaneklocusf: without android support18:11
HtheBwithout android support = fail18:11
HtheBmany apps (for example banking apps) are only ios and android18:11
HtheBthis is why i loved Jolla18:12
pdanekHtheB: android support isn't open, so any community port of Sailfish will be lacking it18:12
HtheBpdanek: not open doesn't mean it can't be achieved18:12
HtheBsome good skilled coder can do what myriad done18:12
rubdospdanek, it's ubuntu, I have bad feelings when I hear that name.18:12
HtheBthey even showed that android apps can run on Harmattan as well18:12
pp_Tizen!18:12
* pp_ runs18:12
* HtheB uses hookshot on pp_18:13
pdaneklocusf: where did you see MX5 dev edition? Don't you mean MX4 Ubuntu edition?18:13
locusfpdanek: the system switch should work there too18:13
locusfpdanek: yes theres too many f the18:14
dirkvlstskeeps: http://grief.com/the-five-stages-of-grief/18:14
Stskeepsdirkvl: oh don't giraffe me18:14
locusfpdanek: mx4 dev edition that is18:14
Stskeepsdirkvl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Z3lmidmrY18:14
dirkvl´what if´, you seem to be at step 3 already18:14
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dirkvlgiraffe you? :p18:14
rubdosStskeeps, I'd have chosen electronics engineering instead of electronics with computer science, in hope I'd get enough people around me to get a working smartphone with Arch Linux. I'd fail.18:14
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dirkvlthat is totally unrealistic, mammels dont drown in quicksand18:15
pdanekI might buy MX4 just for fun18:15
dirkvlstskeeps: this is a big ´what if´: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YN7ZGA-swo18:17
dirkvlmaybe even worse than latest news18:17
rubdosWhy Africa though?18:20
rubdosgamma flashes are cool too!18:21
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M4rtinK_tohkbdStskeeps: would have probably given more atention to n900, n9, bb10 and Android ports18:23
pdanekbb10?18:24
pdanekbb10 is proprietary18:24
pdanekcan't do ports18:24
M4rtinK_tohkbdStskeeps: maybe would get more involved in the Maemo community matters or the Fedlet project (running Fedora on x86 tablets)18:24
M4rtinK_tohkbdapp development18:24
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Stskeepsdirkvl_terrible_: wth :P18:24
HtheB[19:20] <rubdos> Why Africa though? << haha just what I thought!18:24
HtheBracists!18:25
M4rtinK_tohkbdproprietary & kinda dead :P18:25
HtheBhaha18:25
rubdosHtheB indeed!18:25
pdanekdead or not, BB10 is still the best mobile OS out there18:25
M4rtinK_tohkbdhahaha18:26
HtheBpdanek: yet they are now moving to android as well18:26
HtheB:(18:26
M4rtinK_tohkbdgood maybe18:26
pdaneknobody said they're moving to android18:26
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pdanekthey just released Android phone18:26
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pp_would have been nice to see meltemi running (tho that's on really low-end hardware)18:26
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HtheBthe second android bb is just around the corner18:26
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pdanekand CEO stated that if required, they could move to Android completely18:26
M4rtinK_tohkbdum 2 android phones they did disagree18:26
pdanekbut nothing is decided18:27
pdanekso you can't judge like that,..... then we would have to say that Sailfish is dead too18:27
HtheBI remember that the CEO stated that apps are the problem18:27
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HtheBso they were forced to make a BB device18:27
HtheByou know, I dont care what OS is on it18:27
M4rtinK_tohkbdyeah, giant hamsters could invade at any time, changing everything! ;)18:27
HtheBas long as it's QWERTY and can run a couple apps on it18:27
pdanekBB10 has better Android support than Jolla does18:28
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HtheBand by qwerty, i mean N950 like18:28
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M4rtinK_tohkbdmaybe they should not have fired their developper support people18:28
M4rtinK_tohkbdand not ignore requests from developers ? ;)18:28
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pdanekIf Sailfish would have to die eventually.18:30
pdanekOr... completely lose commercial support.18:30
pdanekDid anyone think about making Android ROM with some kind of Sailfish UI/gestures on top?18:30
pdanekAnd doing business same as Cyanogen does?18:30
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pdanekThat would solve app problem, some security issues and also much easier to maintain I guess.18:32
pdanekIn the end, Sailfish is all about UI for the "big crowd"18:32
pdanekbig crowd doesn't care about Wayland under the hood18:32
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rubdossmall crowd does18:32
Tegubut.. multitasking? (except when OOM decides it's time to bash)18:32
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pdanekAndroid already has switching between apps, just make them visible on home screen same as on Sailfish.18:33
pdanekAnd apps which require it, have background daemon enabled in Android, so you can kind of multitask18:33
rubdosthat's switching, not multitasking :)18:33
pdanekyes18:33
pdanekwhatever you call it18:34
pdanekit works18:34
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pdanekI would rather switch and be productive, than multitask and getting half of my apps killed by OOM18:34
rubdosIt works, and we don't like it.18:34
rubdosAndroid requires about twice the RAM and CPU as sailfish does.18:34
pdanekswitching remembers the state of app.... which menu are you in, etc... so from user point of view, it doesn't matter18:35
pdanekyes, and android has twice the RAM... you can buy Android phone with twice ram for half price of Jolla18:35
pdanek:)18:35
rubdosI know... I have to do android develpment for an assignment...18:35
rubdosI'd love to buy that phone, with SFOS :)18:35
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rubdos4 or even 8 gigs of ram, octacore CPU, in my pocket. With SfOS18:36
pdanekthat might never happen18:36
pdanekso instead of giving up and moving over to Cyanogen18:36
pdanekSailfish UI on top of Android is interesting18:36
pdaneksuch project could be sustainable18:36
Lieke_if jolla dies i'll just move back to my n900 or get a dumbphone until something good comes along again18:37
rubdosI'd first like to hear that from Jolla, in an official statement, before I ever buy Android.18:37
rubdosLieke_, indeed18:37
rubdosI'll buy a 331018:37
rubdosor ask my N9 back from my brother. He wants a "modern" Android, so that'd fit.18:38
pdanekyou're lucky18:38
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pdanekI can't imagine my life without some essential android apps18:38
pdanekI don't wanna live for my phone18:38
pdanekbut let my phone make my life easier18:39
rubdosI use my working hours tracker, browser, my mails. That's about it.18:39
M4rtinK_tohkbdwhile the UI is nice18:39
M4rtinK_tohkbdI think the platform itself is more important18:39
rubdosMakes me think, is the guy who build working hours tracker in here? I'll give him 0.1% of the money I have registered in it. Because thank you.18:39
M4rtinK_tohkbdqt, multitasking, normal linux like18:40
rubdosor let's say 1%18:40
HtheBisnt there a sailfish launcher already on android?18:40
pdanekAndroid has QT18:40
M4rtinK_tohkbdyou don't get that with an Android skin18:40
HtheBhttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jolla.launcher.stella18:40
HtheBI should install this on my Jolla18:41
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HtheB<insert Xzibit Yo Dawg meme here>18:42
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disharmonicSo looks like the real reason behind the tablet delays of late is probably funding :(19:42
Stskeepsit certainly doesn't help, no19:42
coderusHtheB: i have stella ambience for sailfish :)19:42
Stskeepsbut the problems we've described, we've actually had, despite how crazy they may sound19:42
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disharmonicStskeeps: i don't doubt that. Well, hopefully there is a way out of this.19:50
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HtheB[20:42] <coderus> HtheB: i have stella ambience for sailfish :) < so do I :)20:36
HtheBpdanek wanted to have sailfish on top of Andorid20:36
HtheBAndroid*20:36
HtheBand I pointed him to use the Jolla launcher :P20:36
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Stskeepsdisharmonic: yup, hope that too20:38
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