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MoritzJT | Hi everyone, who is using WhatsUp among us? | 10:31 |
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ln- | you probably mean: WhatsApp | 10:34 |
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roboro | MoritzJT: I use WhatsUp | 10:34 |
roboro | ln-: I believe that MoritzJT is asking about the native client application to access WhatsApp | 10:35 |
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roboro | the one that WhatsApp sent a cease and desist to | 10:35 |
MoritzJT | Exactly | 10:35 |
ln- | i see | 10:35 |
roboro | I would personally prefer not to use it... but there is no way that I could convince most of my contacts to switch to some other messaging platform | 10:37 |
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roboro | and I would prefer not to run an android application for it | 10:37 |
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MoritzJT | it is in need of implementing encryption. Since few days it has become unreliable. | 10:40 |
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MoritzJT | I was wondering whether someone knows more about it | 10:41 |
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roboro | sorry... can't help... I don't really know much more about it | 10:41 |
MoritzJT | I would also prefer another service all together | 10:41 |
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chem|st | roboro: I just use no msg service | 11:38 |
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chem|st | and since whispersystems is 100% google and apple sheep, even their desktop client relies on google... how stupid is that | 11:40 |
roboro | yeah moxie really went down in my estimation with all of that stuff | 11:41 |
roboro | then again, man got to eat... and I guess he just decided to work within a paradigm that the majority of the world has bought into | 11:41 |
roboro | sometimes I just think I should give in.. privacy fatigue | 11:42 |
chem|st | chrome != majority | 11:42 |
chem|st | Signal is forcing people into using chrome if they want the desktop client | 11:43 |
chem|st | sure it is platform independed that way but so is Qt | 11:44 |
Yaniel | who were whispersystems and moxie again? | 11:44 |
chem|st | Yaniel: whispersystems is Signal | 11:44 |
chem|st | textsecure+redphone=Signal | 11:44 |
roboro | set up by moxie marlinspike... a blackhat hacker that used to talk a lot about privacy stuff at defcon etc | 11:44 |
roboro | and who used to be rabidly anti-google | 11:45 |
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Yaniel | ah | 11:45 |
entil | 100% google and apple sheep to the extent of using the app stores and frameworks-that-don't-infringe-on-privacy, in order to get users | 11:45 |
entil | they could also code for, I dunno, the blackberry | 11:46 |
entil | distribute downloadables on their site | 11:46 |
Yaniel | the irony is killing... privacy I guess | 11:46 |
entil | there'd be three people in the world who cared, none of whom working for ows | 11:46 |
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entil | there is always the closed-server-source option made by not mathematicians | 11:47 |
entil | not cryptologists, I mean :P | 11:47 |
roboro | if you haven't seen them before... moxie's talks on SSL etc at defcon are well worth it# | 11:50 |
entil | his posts on why they distribute over google play make sense, delivering on platforms that people use (as opposed to sailfish, blackberry, palm os) makes sense and the crypto's still there for anyone to audit | 11:52 |
Yaniel | do they distribute _only_ on gplay and ios appstore? | 11:54 |
entil | officially yeah, and the reason is that for better or worse play's the most safe place to distribute if you care about risk of tampering | 11:55 |
entil | or was, at least, I dunno how apks are dealt now | 11:55 |
entil | so it's a choice that makes sense and it's not productive to read too much into it | 11:55 |
entil | you want to put your whine to good use? write a client for another os, it's all there in the open | 11:55 |
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entil | (very impersonal "you" note) | 11:55 |
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roboro | sure... I get what they are doing... and I have no real gripe with it | 11:59 |
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roboro | I just think that its sad that someone who spent so long campaigning against google... now pretty much focuses on developing a client to run on their platform, and chooses to distribute using their store etc etc | 12:00 |
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Stskeeps | nothing wrong with backdooring your way in; but it's sad to rely on their services for your software when you run it | 12:01 |
entil | roboro: fortunately there is libresignal and the jolla build that work using websockets | 12:01 |
entil | I wish, of course, the websocket fork would make it a runtime - instead of buildtime - option to use websockets and get it merged upstream so we can end this nonsense with different builds | 12:02 |
roboro | cool... I haven't looked at that | 12:02 |
entil | because there already exists a jolla build, that could be kept alive from the upstream sources (with the caveat that google play might be the safest bet against tampering) | 12:02 |
entil | but this is a pipe-dream, afaik there's an open issue and pull request and no one cares | 12:03 |
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chem|st | entil: they made fdroid drop a rebuild, wonder how long it takes them to make Jolla drop it from their store | 12:28 |
chem|st | entil: and people download banking apps from $some apk downloading site to SFOS, that is how much they care about security | 12:29 |
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chem|st | entil: and all this does not explain why a desktop client has to be a chrome-app | 12:30 |
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entil | it was probably quick and inexpensive to develop that way | 12:40 |
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entil | and I don't care what people care about, because no one ever cared about anything | 12:40 |
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andybranson | I'm having fun exploring notifications. I can't say I really understand them yet, but it's fun. | 13:17 |
andybranson | It looks like a lot of the notifs are duplicated - those that end on on the events screen are serialized from other apps, and the ones that lipstick understands are all marked as transient so they're purely popups. | 13:18 |
kimmoli | andybranson: been there :) | 13:24 |
andybranson | @kimmoli - so do you know how on earth i'm supposed to read them? | 13:31 |
kimmoli | not really, i need also to update toholed notifications, as they changed somewhere in 2.0 | 13:32 |
andybranson | i'm trying to simplify the pebbled notifications, mainly so it stops forwarding the tohkbd connection notifs :) | 13:33 |
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kimmoli | hmm, seems i have transient true https://github.com/kimmoli/tohkbd2/blob/master/user-daemon/config/x-harbour.tohkbd2.conf | 13:37 |
andybranson | yes, that's what i was depending on! | 13:38 |
andybranson | that's supposed to mean that it doesn't stick in the events screen and is a popup only, which is what we want. i thought that would be a good filter for the pebble. | 13:39 |
kimmoli | i just made my other app to mimic email notifications... reverse engineered | 13:39 |
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bennypr0fane | Guys what's the current best practice for making all Android apps store their app data on the SDcard? I found some threads on TJC, but it's pretty confusing - some of it is deprecated, a lot is Android-sdcard-related, but not exactly this question... | 13:40 |
bennypr0fane | Anyone happen to know a good how-to for SfOS2 for me? | 13:40 |
andybranson | yeah it's misleading that all of the messaging previews are marked as transient. the sailorgram dev also fell for that one. | 13:40 |
andybranson | @bennypr0fane - i wouldn't. it seems to not be reliable between sfos updates. | 13:41 |
andybranson | i think the last one broke because the sdcard was mounted after android was started | 13:41 |
kimmoli | andybranson: https://github.com/kimmoli/maira/tree/master/config | 13:42 |
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kimmoli | the .preview is used to show on screen, and the other to fill the list in events stream | 13:42 |
andybranson | yes that's it. but does the other still contain summary and preview hints? | 13:43 |
bennypr0fane | andybranson, any idea where to find instructions for the last one (I'm not gonna do it,I just wanna check how it was done)? | 13:43 |
kimmoli | https://github.com/kimmoli/maira/blob/master/src/notifications.cpp | 13:43 |
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andybranson | @kimmoli in the jolla apps they also have a third notification - a 'group' one that just contains the itemCount hint. | 13:46 |
kimmoli | maybe, my implementation was enough for me | 13:46 |
andybranson | what's the difference between your two categories? why can't one do the balloon and the events at once? | 13:47 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: what is deprecated? | 13:48 |
andybranson | @bennypr0fane - I saw this one: https://together.jolla.com/question/1888/add-optional-access-to-external-sd-card-from-android-app/ | 13:48 |
andybranson | It seems one chmod is enough to do it?! | 13:48 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: my btrfs how-to share space with android is up to date | 13:49 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: if done right all /data/media is stored on the uSD | 13:50 |
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chem|st | if you are looking for "everything" on uSD, I did not dare to do that | 13:50 |
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bennypr0fane | chemist, where is your solution posted? Is it likely to get broekn by next update | 13:52 |
bennypr0fane | chem|st, | 13:52 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: if it brakes I post a fix | 13:52 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: TJC | 13:53 |
chem|st | breaks | 13:53 |
bennypr0fane | I think the one linked to by andybranson is deprecated, because that is not the sdcard's mount point anymore | 13:53 |
andybranson | ah ok | 13:53 |
andybranson | thought it seemed a little simple | 13:53 |
chem|st | andybranson: and it is not needed anymore | 13:53 |
kimmoli | andybranson: i had issues them disappearing from events view | 13:54 |
chem|st | I think android can access uSD just fine now | 13:54 |
kimmoli | and notifications appeared one by one | 13:54 |
kimmoli | so the "preview" shows the balloon, others just add them silently in events-view list | 13:54 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: https://together.jolla.com/question/40802/ | 13:54 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: read all of it and if any questions arise let me know | 13:55 |
andybranson | @kimmoli ah i see. is this documented anywhere? i haven't found anything that mentions the sailfish events. | 13:55 |
bennypr0fane | chem|st, awesome, thanks! | 13:55 |
kimmoli | andybranson: lol | 13:56 |
chem|st | bennypr0fane: and sorry, I am lazy and never provided any scripts to do so as I did it exaclty once on my device and once on my sister's | 13:56 |
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bennypr0fane | chem|st, well it's pretty remarkable you succeeded in the first place. Most people wouldn't even post a command they used, let alone detailed instructions :-) | 13:59 |
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chem|st | bennypr0fane: I needed to learn stuff about systemd and usually I track progress in my wiki, so here I tracked it on tjc and added some comments^^ | 14:02 |
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ggabriel | o/ | 14:07 |
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chem|st | ggabriel: o/ | 14:08 |
ggabriel | how are things? happy new year since I haven't had a chance to say it :) | 14:09 |
chem|st | ggabriel: could be worse | 14:11 |
chem|st | snafu | 14:11 |
ggabriel | fair enough | 14:12 |
andybranson | @kimmoli. unfortunately the whole thing seems to have changed hands during the jollapocalypse, so it's probably not the best time to ask either :) | 14:12 |
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lainwir3d | wow | 14:31 |
lainwir3d | Qt charts new version is now available as GPLv3 | 14:31 |
lainwir3d | nice | 14:31 |
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attah | Does anyone know if i can find out the (E)ARFCN/frequency of the current cell? | 19:14 |
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attah | GAAAH! Who was it that wanted detailed network mode (e.g. HSDPA)? I just found that but not ARFCN | 19:22 |
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tbr | attah: interesting, how can you get that? | 19:26 |
tbr | also, could it be exposed through the ofono plugin? | 19:26 |
attah | at command.. "AT$QCSYSMODE" | 19:26 |
attah | don't know.. i guess that uses qmi or whatever it's called, or? | 19:27 |
tbr | ah, on the qualcomm debug interface | 19:27 |
tbr | makes sense | 19:28 |
attah | ? | 19:28 |
tbr | AFAIU normally RIL speaks to the modem through some other means. But for debugging the modem exposes some character device too | 19:29 |
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attah | i thoutght "other means" are named qmi, but it was just a hunch | 19:31 |
attah | tried to get the debug character device á la snoopsnitch open.. but it failed :( | 19:31 |
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tbr | I never looked that closely, I was just a manager while my guys wrote that stuff ;) | 19:32 |
tbr | my experience with the qc debugging protocol is from when I was hacking a QC based modem a few years earlier | 19:33 |
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attah | It would be nice if someone that knows the kernel drivers a bit more tried to see what fails when you open the debug device | 19:34 |
attah | (or if it's just me PEBKACing it) | 19:34 |
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mornfall | jolla still in stealth mode? | 19:44 |
r0kk3rz | mornfall: stealth mode? | 19:47 |
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mornfall | not saying anything (or responding in any way) | 19:48 |
r0kk3rz | i havent really seen much of this stealth mode then, theres usually some information | 19:49 |
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attah | Hmm.. AT$QCRSRQ? looks interesting, like neighbour cells and measurements in LTE | 19:54 |
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chem|st | mornfall: stealth mode would mean we have no info but the last info is no 7days old... | 20:07 |
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mornfall | chem|st: is it? I can't see anything since since december 31st (other than an angry mob in the comment section, that is) | 20:08 |
mornfall | -since | 20:08 |
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chem|st | mornfall: if your sole newsfeed is the blog... | 20:09 |
r0kk3rz | mornfall: community meeting last week said tablet final solution revealed this week, and we may see early access for update | 20:09 |
chem|st | mornfall: community meeting took place | 20:09 |
mornfall | well, the latest tweet is about that blog | 20:09 |
chem|st | r0kk3rz: final solution? | 20:09 |
mornfall | r0kk3rz: that's not actual information, but yeah, it does qualify as a sign of life I guess | 20:09 |
narchi4 | vat | 20:09 |
mornfall | chem|st: ex-terminate! | 20:09 |
mornfall | so that's the Monday or Tuesday blog Moshroom is referring to :-) (that's a pretty good comment btw) | 20:10 |
mornfall | (second to last right now) | 20:10 |
chem|st | mornfall: not actual information? a whole war was decided on backchanneling and you say a community meeting info is no info.... | 20:10 |
r0kk3rz | well its not really info, more of a promise for info | 20:12 |
r0kk3rz | but its better than nothing | 20:12 |
chem|st | this insane demand for news is getting on my nerves, we are 6 days in after holidays and got an update in the community meeting | 20:12 |
chem|st | r0kk3rz: for the tablet yes, but you said "final" | 20:13 |
chem|st | I'd rather read it as we might get further insight on what might happen, not even we might get a solution and not even close to we get a final solution | 20:14 |
chem|st | r0kk3rz: and info that they are not done yet and more info will follow the next weeks is actually info | 20:15 |
chem|st | just because people are not satisfied with the amount of info does not mean there was no communication at all | 20:16 |
r0kk3rz | sure, but you can have communication that is mostly devoid of substance | 20:17 |
chem|st | people shouting "we are stakeholders" bahaving like they are shareholders, demanding on time updates of their concern | 20:17 |
r0kk3rz | yeah but who cares about spoilt children whinging | 20:18 |
chem|st | r0kk3rz: giving a timeframe is substantial | 20:18 |
mornfall | giving a timeframe is substantial *if* you managed to stick to your timeframe more than 10% of the time in the past | 20:18 |
r0kk3rz | not when your history of timeframes is lacking a bit of credibility its not | 20:18 |
chem|st | mornfall: 10 | 20:18 |
chem|st | % | 20:18 |
chem|st | they made more than 10% update releases happen within their timeframe | 20:19 |
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chem|st | just because the tablet got delay after delay does not mean everything else went sideways | 20:19 |
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mornfall | wasn't the original timeframe one update a month? | 20:20 |
r0kk3rz | mornfall: which is more or less what we got | 20:21 |
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chem|st | mornfall: and if you follow the branches you have like 17 upgrade in 24months, that is >50% | 20:22 |
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chem|st | with some branches merged/dropped because of holidays or too many bugs already fixed in the next | 20:23 |
chem|st | so having 2 major holiday seasons each year you are 17vs20 releases right? | 20:24 |
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chem|st | stop taking things we begged nokia for years for granted with jolla just because they try to do better | 20:25 |
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chem|st | they actually do better, and people behave like they owe it to the community and need to be punished on any slippings | 20:26 |
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mornfall | as it happens they did take a lot of money from the community in exchange for promises, so I am not surprised people feel entitled | 20:30 |
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mornfall | jolla probably expected to get a lot *more* money (at least for the phones), but that doesn't mean the promises to those who did buy are forfeit | 20:33 |
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Lieke | imo you can say what you want about jolla but the sailfish upgrades always happened pretty frequent and fast | 20:34 |
chem|st | mornfall: kickstarter is something like venture capital with a fixed return if successful | 20:37 |
chem|st | (no idea what you call it then, I am no bankster) | 20:38 |
mornfall | chem|st: that only applies to the tablet, and that campaign was also actually successful | 20:38 |
chem|st | mornfall: a successful campaign does not mean that you actually succeed | 20:38 |
chem|st | successful funding can turn out to be a successful miscalculation of expenses | 20:39 |
mornfall | it's also moot however, because the tablet igg was 'flexible funding' -- which basically means there's no actual goal set | 20:39 |
chem|st | it was fixed in the beginning iirc | 20:40 |
mornfall | (meaning jolla keeps the many and maintains the promise to deliver the rewards even if the declared goal is not met) | 20:40 |
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mornfall | it was flexible all along, doesn't make sense to flip a funded project from fixed to flexible (it only means you pay more to igg in that case) | 20:40 |
chem|st | mornfall: it also means other payment options | 20:41 |
chem|st | fixed funding allows debit card only or something | 20:41 |
chem|st | and that makes a lot of sense | 20:41 |
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mornfall | igg is odd, they seem to be pushing quite hard for flexible funding | 20:47 |
mornfall | well, it makes sense from their pov, it's less hassle for them | 20:47 |
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mornfall | anyway, I guess the relationship between jolla and 'the community' is broken beyond repair... good time to get a divorce | 20:52 |
mornfall | everybody is annoyed, on both sides of the fence | 20:53 |
mornfall | and we aren't going to get any kind of a useful dialog that way | 20:53 |
tiwake | doing proper production runs on anything is a pain in the butt | 20:55 |
mornfall | of course it is, but that's what jolla chose to do | 20:55 |
mornfall | and at the time they came with the tablet, they already had a botched product on their hands so they presumably knew what they were bringing unto themselves | 20:55 |
tiwake | its what I have been doing for a living for the last 10 years, in volumes of various different parts ranging from 1 to several thousand | 20:55 |
mornfall | (well, botched in terms of production; the thing itself is mediocre but probably a decent result given the resources) | 20:56 |
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tiwake | well, sorta... it could have been the, for example, screen supplier saying "here is the prototype, the actual production run of these starting next month will be 40% better" | 20:57 |
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tiwake | or at least the sales guy | 20:58 |
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tiwake | the chinese really like to cut corners to save a few pennies | 20:58 |
tiwake | so I'd imagine trying to get parts made over there is such a pain | 20:59 |
mornfall | you get what you pay for | 20:59 |
mornfall | and nobody wants to pay €1000+ for a midrange phone | 21:00 |
tiwake | sorta... normally when I get a new part or drawing, I ask what its for, the context, and if possible, all the other parts that it goes together with | 21:01 |
tiwake | so I can make sure everything fits as intended | 21:01 |
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kimmoli | tiwake: that is usually a luxury | 21:01 |
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mornfall | yeah, you are lucky if a bigger hammer fixes it | 21:02 |
tiwake | kimmoli: most shops don't even try doing that though "yeah ok, we will make it 'to the print'" | 21:02 |
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mornfall | now that somehow reminded me of peachyprinter | 21:03 |
* mornfall wonders if that materialized | 21:03 | |
mornfall | still taking preorders, apparently | 21:04 |
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tiwake | normally when something does not go together quite right its a failure on the designer side, generally from inexperience... it could very well have been jolla not explicitly defining certain aspects of the tablet correctly to the people who designed it | 21:05 |
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mornfall | well, tough business decisions to make... experienced designers don't come cheap | 21:06 |
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tiwake | or the designers saw the money and said "oh yeah, we can totally do that for you", and make off like those shoddy contractors that seem to be everywhere | 21:07 |
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tiwake | mornfall: how can you know who is good with a new business? | 21:07 |
tiwake | "well, they all have about the same bid, lets pick one and go with it" | 21:08 |
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mornfall | well, you could ask around for references, but I guess business aren't like old pals | 21:09 |
mornfall | who's a good supplier is probably a trade secret or something | 21:09 |
kimmoli | heh.. https://youtu.be/_ZbAi0Scz5U | 21:09 |
tiwake | it really seems to be | 21:09 |
mornfall | which is, in the end, stupid, because you want your good supplier's business to flourish | 21:09 |
mornfall | unless you are much bigger than your supplier, in which case you want them to squirm | 21:10 |
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tiwake | mornfall: I've owned my own business for ~3 years now... people really act like where to get all the best stuff is 'a trade secret', then when do you find out they don't want to talk to you | 21:10 |
tiwake | "oh you are a new small business? screw off" | 21:10 |
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tiwake | its annoying | 21:10 |
tiwake | lol | 21:10 |
tiwake | in the end, people are idiots | 21:11 |
tiwake | XD | 21:11 |
tiwake | that hasent changed for the last how many thousands of years? | 21:12 |
attah | could someone that's on LTE try a AT command for me? i think AT$QCRSQ? did the trick actually | 21:12 |
tiwake | hmm, idiot is not quite right, idiotic is more correct | 21:13 |
attah | Here is what to run: http://piratepad.net/O0hZQu2aQu | 21:14 |
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kimmoli | check your pad | 21:18 |
tiwake | mornfall: really in the end, I don't really have enough information to blame jolla. Perhaps I could for "trying to grow more quickly than the market would allow".. donno | 21:18 |
attah | kimmoli: thanks! | 21:19 |
mornfall | that peachy kit looks like total hell to assemble | 21:19 |
attah | kimmoli: could you by any chance be on the 1800 band? :) | 21:20 |
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mornfall | I am already cured (haha, pun) of any desire to get a peachy kit :-) | 21:21 |
attah | (EARFCN 1825 just happens to be near the frequency.. it really means 1867.5) | 21:22 |
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kimmoli | attah: most propably | 21:25 |
attah | jaay, progress | 21:25 |
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chem|st | as the question arises n+1 - how do I use the vault's CLI? | 23:10 |
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chem|st | hmm got it I think | 23:21 |
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chem|st | not | 23:42 |
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chem|st | what is the --data directory? | 23:43 |
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