#jollamobile log for Monday, 2016-02-22

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snow7608:29
Tofein the good ol' days, it used to be 4208:32
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mornfallanyone know if bluetooth smart (4.0, probably need BLE) supported now?11:14
mornfall(or are we screwed again because of the ancient kernel?)11:16
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tbrmornfall: kernel supports it on SbJ no problem. The userspace is missing, no Qt APIs etc. There is a 3rd party library 'libgato' though11:29
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mornfalltbr: there's Qt 5.5 on SFOS2 isn't there?11:50
mornfalland my phone has bluez 4.101 so that should be good enough too11:51
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tbrI'd be surprised if they got that far yet, in the past they've been notoriously slow on the uptake11:51
mornfallyou are right, it's 5.2 ffs11:53
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mornfall(there's just one package with 5.5 on it, that got me confused)11:53
mornfallsome mediaservice plugin11:53
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tbryou might be able to build the relevant 5.5 parts yourself, dunno11:54
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mornfallyeah, well, we still have unpatched glibc11:56
M4rtinKIIRC some multimedia stuff has been backported from newer Qt11:57
mornfallso I guess running Qt from 2013 is "fine"11:57
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M4rtinKwell, we are basically running a Kernel from 2012 (3.4)11:59
M4rtinKso I guess it is a good fit :)11:59
mornfallthat too :(12:00
M4rtinKalso a lot of stuff is using the GPLv2 versions12:00
M4rtinKwhich are often quite outdated as the development is continuing under GPLv312:01
M4rtinKbut still better than all the other options I'm afraid...12:01
M4rtinKbut it could certainly be improved12:01
mornfallit's slowly becoming a losing proposition12:06
* tbr waits for Android to switch to the Zephyr kernel, now that the linux foundation has a closed source friendly offering...12:09
mornfallwell, zephyr probably *is* a much better kernel than linux12:10
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M4rtinKtbr: well, they have been like this for quite a while12:32
M4rtinKtbr: at least since they endorsed Tizen12:33
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phlixi_ohttps://www.periscope.tv/w/1OyJAzNRrnbxb12:45
Bysmyyrshould there be some sound, newer used periscope12:47
phlixi_oBysmyyr: seems like you are not alone https://twitter.com/JollaUsers/status/70174051097785548812:51
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dr_gogeta86tbr, i'm disgusted from Linux Foundation13:13
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M4rtinKthey did a lot of weird things recently13:20
M4rtinKlike withdrawing funding to Software Freedom Conservancy & preventing individual contributors from being voted the their board13:21
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M4rtinKany idea if the Aquafish has the TOH interface ? :)14:11
M4rtinKwould be probably too nice to be true :)14:11
lainwir3d:)14:11
lainwir3dwhat's its cpu / ram spec by the way ?14:11
lainwir3dbetter than Jolla 1 ?14:12
cb400fsome quadcore thingy and 2 gigs of ram14:12
lainwir3dnice nice14:12
cb400fhttp://storiesio.com/intex-aqua-fish-smartphone-running-on-sailfish-os-demoed-at-mwc-2016-3244/14:12
cb400fread the updated specs ;-) .. I was pretty shocked when I first skimmed it14:13
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lainwir3d:)14:15
lainwir3dhmmm seems sligthy bigger, so no color toh compat and tohkbd :P14:15
lainwir3dbut well, fair enough14:15
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cehtehwhere will that be available? only india? some other developing countries? worldwide?14:17
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cehtehe device will be going to be available only in India initially starting from this spring.14:19
cehteh..gotcha14:19
Venemocb400f: what were you shocked about?14:26
cb400fthe 1 gig of ram mostly... I haven't had problems personally, but I see a lot of people complaining about memory issues... luckily it was just misinformation14:28
Venemo2 GB is not much better14:29
Hellemy experience is that it's the Android apps that make it a memory issue14:29
Helleoh and gpodder has a memory leak remaining somewhere14:29
Venemomy experience is that sailfish os can not even keep two browser tabs in 1GB or RAM14:29
Venemoso...14:30
Venemoyeah, the more RAM the better14:30
Hellehrm, not my experience14:30
Venemo1 GB was ridiculously low in 2013 but 2 GB is even more ridiculously low now14:30
Hellebut that might be because I tend to browse pretty light websites and use adblocking on a proxy14:30
cb400fsomething is fishy about your experience.. I often have 6-7 tabs in the default browser, and never ever had an app closed down or anything14:30
HartziVenemo: why? SFOS != android14:30
Hellecb400f: yeah, I have 14 tabs open right now14:31
Venemowell14:31
HelleHartzi: pretty much14:31
Venemofor me it always unloads tabs in the background14:31
Venemoand reloads them when I go back... forgetting my scroll position and any user input thus far14:31
cb400fthat I have had happen from time to time.. but in the beginning that was the default behaviour anyway ;-)14:32
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cb400fiirc in 2013 the iPhoneys had 1 gig of ram too14:32
Venemoit is still the default now14:33
Venemoand then the phone dies if you browse picture-heavy sites14:34
Hellegiven that I read /r/diy nah14:34
VenemoOP2 has 4GB of RAM and it's crap from last year14:34
Venemoso this year you have no excuse for 2 GB14:34
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Hartziwell Intex aqua fish is low end phone14:35
Venemoyeah14:35
VenemoI know14:35
Venemo:(14:35
M4rtinKdon't forget that for more than 4 GB you need 64 bit arm14:35
M4rtinKand the state of Mer/Sailfish on aarch64 is not very stellar so far, at least AFAIK14:36
Venemohow come?14:36
HelleM4rtinK: nope, there is the equivilent of PAE for ARM14:36
Hellewhich is supported14:36
M4rtinKwell14:36
Hellealso you can run 64 bit kernel, 32 bit userland14:36
M4rtinKbleh but OK14:36
M4rtinKbleh^214:36
Venemoanyway14:37
Venemowould be nice to see something aimed at the EU too14:37
M4rtinKdid anybody actually ship an arm 32 bit device with PAE & >4GB RAM14:37
M4rtinK?14:37
Venemothat is beside the point14:38
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Hartziwhy would anyone ship a 32 bit cpu device with >4 gb ram?14:40
HelleHartzi: Android ?14:40
kjetilhoARM and PAE?  uh.14:41
Hellekjetilho: equivilent of PAE14:41
Helleforgot the name of it14:41
kjetilhoif it is by ARM, it is probably good14:42
Hellekjetilho: well, ARM iirc now doesn't recommend using it and instead if necessary using 32 bit userland on 64 bit kernel14:42
Helleand using a 64bit CPU14:43
Helleit was more an interim thing14:43
kjetilhook14:43
Hartziwell, why not ship a 64-bit cpu device if more than 4gb ram needed?14:43
HelleHartzi: additional silicon costs, higher licensing fees, more expensive to get the same low power consumption14:44
locusfand redesign the hardware all over again?14:44
locusfwrt board14:44
locusfand aarch64 is pain for mer14:44
HartziHelle: okay, cots sound like a major reason14:45
Hartzicosts*14:45
lainwir3dlocusf: why is it a pain ?14:45
lainwir3dbig software incompatibility ?14:45
locusfy14:47
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mornfalleh, maybe it's time to look more closely at ubuntu touch15:00
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M4rtinKmornfall: let me know once it has multitasking ;-)15:03
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Venemoso15:11
Venemowhy is aarch64 bad for mer?15:11
mornfallM4rtinK: well, multitasking on jolla could use some serious work too15:13
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M4rtinKmornfall: sure, but mostly due to memory consumption issues15:17
Venemomornfall +115:17
Venemoand usability issues15:17
M4rtinKmornfall: but it *is* possible, unlike on UT15:17
M4rtinKshould work perfectly fine with more ram15:17
M4rtinKor once the memory issues are fixed (it worked quite a bit better before the Qt 5.2 rebase that turned to be very memory inefficient)15:18
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pdanekAqua Fish!15:35
pdanekNothing impressive actually.15:35
pdanekI expected 3GB ram15:35
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pdanekand sharks with lasers finally15:35
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mornfallM4rtinK: I tend to agree with Ubuntu that 'apps' are not a very good UX concept...15:38
mornfalland the multitasking you probably refer to is 'multiple apps'15:39
mornfallso I wouldn't be hung up on 'multitasking' as such15:43
Lieke_what does ubuntu have instead of applications?15:45
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mornfallLieke_: http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/features15:51
Lieke_ah, i see15:55
mornfallit's like the N900 messages app taken to a logical conclusion15:56
mornfallSFOS has some of that15:56
mornfallyou shouldn't need to multitask between 4 different IM apps15:56
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mornfallM4rtinK: btw. when did you last see ubuntu phone? because it seems to have a pretty decent task switcher16:04
r0kk3rzi imagine ubuntu touch is much like sailfishos, very much a moving target16:05
mornfallsadly, sailfish is moving more and more slowly16:06
r0kk3rzwhen you lose half your team, then yeah it cuts productivity a bit16:06
r0kk3rzloads of lost knowledge16:06
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M4rtinKmornfall: AFAIK the lack of multitasking still stands, not sure about other developments16:11
M4rtinKmornfall: two example usecases currently broken due to lack of multitasking:16:12
mornfallcut and paste is my fav :P16:12
M4rtinKmornfall: 1) turn by turn navigation/track recording - recording/navigation stops unless you keep the navigation app in foreground at all times16:12
M4rtinKmornfall: 2) music playback - music playback stops unless you keep the app in foreground at all times16:13
M4rtinKthere are some sound playback APIs that try to paper this over16:13
M4rtinKbut AFAIK they don't cover stuff like music streaming for example...16:13
M4rtinKmornfall: actually copy & paste should not be directly affected - IIRC it does no kill the apps, just pauses them16:14
mornfallyes, I was being sacrastic (since cut and paste is broken on SFOS)16:15
mornfallsarcastic*16:15
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mornfallcan't really comment on ubuntu other than what I have seen online16:16
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ElleoM4rtinK: the media-hub stuff supports normal streaming stuff, it just doesn't support proprietary things like spotify at the moment16:17
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ElleoM4rtinK: also you can disable the app suspending for any apps you want to run permanently via tweakgeek (not an ideal solution for end users, but handy for power users)16:18
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mornfallhaving a per-app switch seems to be a lot better option than what sfos gives you (everything running all the time)16:19
mornfallbut yeah, tricky end-user-wise, I guess16:19
Elleothe ultimate aim is to expand the background services to handle all common cases16:19
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Elleoso if you want to play music you hand a playlist off to media-hub, or downloads off to download manager and they continue while your app is suspended, which both already work, but there's no similar service for navigation stuff yet16:20
Elleoit helps to ensure the battery life is always reliably good16:21
Elleoas you don't have lots of badly written apps constantly causing wakeups for no good reason16:21
M4rtinKElleo: I don't think this can ever cover all the cases16:22
M4rtinKElleo: or even the major ones16:22
mornfallM4rtinK: the 'allow running in background' per-app switch definitely can16:22
M4rtinKthere is just too much things apps might want to do in the background16:22
mornfallnotice that you get the same on SFOS for android apps16:23
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mornfallsure, it's a compromise16:23
M4rtinKunless the switch is there by default16:23
r0kk3rzM4rtinK: with the convergence stuff ive seen, if thats not full multitasking then i dont know what is16:23
M4rtinKits like it was not there at all16:23
mornfallanyway, the two things I'd miss is a) aliendalvik and b) tohkbd16:24
mornfallhowever, given how one of my tohkbd's does not work at all and the other still has issues with one of the letters...16:24
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: has it been confirmed it really multitasks in the convergence mode ?16:24
Elleor0kk3rz: yeah, in desktop mode background processing will be allowed for all apps, since that's pretty much expected in desktop use cases16:24
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: also I guess multitasking in convergence mode might not necessarily mean multitasking in "phone" mode16:25
r0kk3rzM4rtinK: there might be triggers, but ive seen someone use a BT mouse with just the phone16:25
M4rtinKmornfall: something seems to happen to its service - I also have to start it again from time to time16:25
r0kk3rzand use it like a windowed system16:26
M4rtinKmornfall: ten it works fine but apparently stops some time later16:26
r0kk3rzwhether thats super secret bleeding edge dev stuff im not sure16:26
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Elleoyeah, my tohkbd never worked correctly :/16:26
Elleosome of the keys required you to press the back plate simulataneously to get them to register16:26
M4rtinKmornfall: I plan to investigate the service restart support systemd has, that should be able to solve it16:27
M4rtinKElleo: I had the issue with a few keys, that it basically vanished with use16:27
ElleoM4rtinK: yeah, it never went away with mine16:28
IZhM4rtinK: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html#Restart=16:29
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M4rtinKElleo: yeah, it can quite possibly quite vary between individual keyboards16:33
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M4rtinKit is certainly not easy to do a custom keybord with such a small production run & with limited manufacturing machinery available16:34
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r0kk3rzwell, they were largely hand built16:55
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M4rtinKyeah - in any case HUGE thanks yet again to everyone involved in the ToHKBD project! :)17:06
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pdanekWhat do you guys fancy more, Intex Aqua Fish or Turing Phone?20:07
tadzikI like things that exist :)20:08
the_mgtpricewise the aquafish, or a turing phone with better design20:08
the_mgtwhy is this the only proper source of information so far: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=96465&page=320:09
M4rtinKTMO FTW :)20:09
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pdanekNew partnerships in 2 days?20:15
pdanekHYPE?20:15
r0kk3rzyou would hope so20:19
r0kk3rzgiven how long it has taken the intex partnership to come to fruition20:19
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Yanielhehe20:23
Yanielpartner ships20:23
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Siddeyay, Aqua Fish. I really hope it's not that really complicated to buy in europe20:28
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sjtoiki'm assuming toh's don't work20:33
HtheBwhy cant someone ask them to open up the cover to see the inside ?20:33
HtheBO_o!?20:34
r0kk3rzHtheB: its a different shape for starters20:34
r0kk3rzand ive heard nothing about any i2c pins...20:35
sjtoikdo you have any link?20:35
HtheBr0kk3rz: doesn't matter20:35
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HtheBjust want to see what is under the cover20:35
HtheBthere are many pics already of the front and back of the phone20:36
HtheBwhat about under the cover? =20:36
HtheB:D20:36
r0kk3rzyep, full teardown kthx20:36
HtheBlol20:36
HtheBhaha20:36
r0kk3rz+ bill of materials20:36
HtheByou know what i mean20:36
r0kk3rzyeah i know, could be interesting20:36
HtheBI've never even seen a teardown of a Jolla... :(20:36
r0kk3rzi do follow the ifixit teardowns and such though20:37
HtheBthey have only some basic teardown of the Jolla20:38
HtheBand no video20:38
sjtoiki wouldn't be supprised if the base is the same, but a bit upgraded one20:39
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r0kk3rzsjtoik: i dunno, i think the similarities with the jphone are purely cosmetic20:40
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sjtoikwell, if it's not going to available anywhere else...20:41
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HtheBI'm more interested in the Turing phone20:46
HtheBeven if it doesn't have headphone jack :(20:46
r0kk3rzi think it'll be nice to have a choice20:48
HtheBof course20:48
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sakustarHtheB: what is it?23:12
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HtheBsakustar: what is what? Turing Phone?23:38
HtheBwww.turingphone.com23:38
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