#jollamobile log for Tuesday, 2017-08-29

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jonssonsso10:55
jonssonswhere do I find a list of supported devices?10:55
Nicd-https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris10:59
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jonssonsNicd-: ooh nice, thanks10:59
Coolgeekbtw, SFOS update for everyone :)11:10
Teguhuh, really?11:11
Coolgeekyyp, doing the update right now11:11
Tegunice https://together.jolla.com/question/164349/release-notes-211-jamsanjoki-released/11:12
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phlixi_ojust noticed an sfos update in the store16:01
phlixi_ois this new?16:01
phlixi_onever noticed the update is displayed in the store, the last years i thought it was always in the settings16:02
Teguupdated16:02
Teguoh, I didn't look if it was in the store. but the store checks for system updates although one would not visit the settings pae16:04
phlixi_oi was just updating webcat from notification which took me to the store, after the webcat update sfos was displayed as an update in the store.. never noticed that in the store...16:05
phlixi_ousually when there came a sfos update notification up, that took me into settings16:05
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Teguand yay, the Fingerterm keyboard hiding issue has been fixed. unfortunately, the cursor position issue is still here, although  it appeared in one of the recent updates16:20
Teguearlier, only the cursor in the fade keyboard mode was bugging, but nowadays the terminal display itself has a similar issue16:22
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Teguheh, the WLAN settings now show a loong list of old networks16:41
TeguI didn't even know they were still stored smewhere16:42
Tegusomewhere*. which file contains them? (editing text is painful with this fingerterm cursor offset)16:43
r0kk3rzit is rather16:43
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PaulePanterAfter reading the topic, could the URL please be updated to https://jolla.com/?17:18
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PaulePanterI guess a lot of people asked about https://blog.jolla.com/sailfishx/ already.17:18
PaulePanterWhat is free software and what is proprietary about it?17:18
* PaulePanter doesn’t want to spent money on proprietary stuff.17:19
r0kk3rzPaulePanter: then you dont need to buy it17:19
PaulePanterr0kk3rz: So, everything is closed?17:20
r0kk3rzno17:20
PaulePanterSo the same as the state of the Jolla phone?17:20
r0kk3rzyeah basically17:21
PaulePanterThemes and a lot of applications are proprietary?17:21
r0kk3rzthe free bits are freely available, so you dont really need to buy anything17:21
PaulePanterI thought that’s was supposed to change.17:21
r0kk3rzit was/is but that hasnt happened yet17:21
PaulePanterThat’s too bad. I happily donate, but wouldn’t won’t to support the current model very much.17:22
r0kk3rzjolla said they would release the adaptation, so you can build it yourself using the hadk if you want17:22
r0kk3rzbut certainly, things still arent RMS approved17:23
PaulePanterIf there is a write-up what is actually the difference in freedom between SailfishOS and LineageOS for example, that’d be great.17:23
PaulePanterr0kk3rz: That sounds a little better.17:23
r0kk3rzthe gist would be that lineage is free-er than sailfish anyway17:26
PaulePanterr0kk3rz: Understood. Thank you. Then I’ll try to support LineageOS until SailfishOS changes someday.17:27
PaulePanterr0kk3rz: Thank you for your answers and patience.17:27
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abransonr0kk3rz, PaulePanter: doesn't that depend on what you call free? ;)18:39
abransonLineage still requires rooting if you want full control of it, right?18:40
r0kk3rzi assumed he meant free as in the RMS sense18:40
abransonhe has four doesn't he18:40
r0kk3rzin which case, the whole codebase is open except for the same blobs we use18:40
abransonbut i'm not sure it's very valuable to have the code open if the binaries are locked away from you18:41
Nicd-https://sailfishos.org/developmentroadmap/18:42
Nicd-nice18:42
abransonfor me, the freedom of control over my own device is much more important than the code being open. i'd rather have administrator rights on windows than have a linux box where I didn't have the root password.18:42
r0kk3rzagreed, but he specifically mentioned not wanting to support proprietary software, so each to their own18:43
abransonyeah, it just seems a bit dogmatic to me. we're rapidly losing that freedom by people hiding behind 'open source'18:44
TeguI have an ADSL box whose root password would be nice to have.. for the lulz if nothing else18:45
PaulePanterabranson: Yes, I meant the RMS sense. But you raise some good points I have to think about.18:45
PaulePanterTegu: Did you ask the vendor? ;-)18:46
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Tegudo they give them? :D18:46
PaulePanterTegu: You don’t know, until you try it.18:47
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r0kk3rzabranson: im sure old mate RMS would argue that without the code, you only have the control the developer lets you and you cant know for sure its respecting your wishes :)18:47
abransonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software#Definition18:47
abransonout of those four, i'd say you only get the freedom to study in the wider android community, and not at all when the google services get involved18:48
abransonhow many of these does an unrooted lineage give you?18:48
r0kk3rz... all of them? people can and do build new lineage images with custom features for unofficial devices after all18:49
r0kk3rzand redistribute them as they see fit18:50
abransonbut the only way to replace that software is rather destructive, no? definitely wouldn't get the GPLv3 anti-tivoization seal of approval18:58
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r0kk3rztrue, replacing bits is much easier with a package system of some kind19:05
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r0kk3rzeven so, theres parts of sfos you dont have the code to, so that doesnt get the GPLv3 anti-tivoisation seal of approval either19:07
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abransonr0kk3rz: i don't think that's a problem. as long as you can replace a GPL3 package on the system with your own version then you're good. developer mode on the jolla fulfills that completely.19:17
abransoneven though you can 'root' android devices, you're not meant to. it's not mandated by the system, so apps can complain about it etc19:18
r0kk3rzno, but it is a menu option in lineageos anyway19:20
r0kk3rzno extra flashing required19:20
r0kk3rzwhat the apps do isnt really a fault of the system, sfos apps could do all kinds of crappy things too if they wanted19:21
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abransonr0kk3rz: well i'd argue that it would be unacceptable in sfos because it's sanctioned by the system19:37
abransonrooting I mean19:37
abransonon android, root is a dirty word. and that's probably what I object to the most19:37
r0kk3rzquite so, but even on the most RMS approved systems you're still free to install crappy apps that do crappy things19:39
r0kk3rzand i was referring to lineageos, not the whole android ecosystem19:39
abransonhard to separate the two though really. and you could argue that lineage helps to sustain the android monopoly, which for the large part is extremely non-free, by soaking up interest in real alternatives at the periphery19:41
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phlixiabranson r0kk3rz do you use lineage? and how would you say it compares to sfos in regards of "maturity" of the system, while not using google services? (not asking about eye candy stuff, or ux principles like swype vs buttons or such)19:45
r0kk3rzabranson: on the flip side, you can argue they are also helping stop android from closing the whole thing by filling in the gaps and providing installable images19:46
r0kk3rzs/android/google19:46
abransonhmm no I think there'd be a lot more activity around real linux phones if it weren't there. fewer phones to run it on maybe, but they definitely cement the monopoly19:48
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r0kk3rzphlixi: i use it on my tablet when im not fighting with sfos on it, it does what i expect from android19:50
phlixia jolla tablet?19:50
r0kk3rzno, a sony one19:50
r0kk3rzhence the ongoing battle to get the hardware to work with sfos19:51
phlixii figured i only rarely use the tablet for surfing, and that works very well with sfos (imho)19:51
r0kk3rzabranson: so you're saying that people shouldnt maintain a free android fork because you'd prefer it if they did something else? im not sure what kind of argument this is :)19:54
abransonr0kk3rz: it's the same argument as asking people to stop hacking windows activation and use an actual free OS instead, or they might find that one day they don't have a choice.19:57
abransonandroid exists for as long as google needs it to. when they have a complete monopoly, they could whip it out from under our feet very quickly if they wanted to19:58
r0kk3rzi agree. but presumably people do these things because they want to20:01
r0kk3rzand forcing them not to doesnt sound very freedomy to me20:01
abransoni did say ask ;)20:02
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abransonbut want is a funny word. android's very carefully aimed, quite cynically, to satisfy certain desires for freedom while removing other forms of it20:03
abransonpeople want a lot of things they've been sold, but only because the pitch was right20:04
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