#jollamobile log for Friday, 2018-10-26

*** Ram-Z_ is now known as Ram-Z05:55
*** geheimni1` is now known as geheimnis`05:55
*** Mirv__ is now known as Mirv06:11
*** FireFly is now known as FaerieFly06:11
*** Amu is now known as Smar06:18
kidpa: Yay!06:35
pai guess i could wait sfos3 , then i could try to swallow the uglyness of the UI and give it a shot as main device for a few weeks06:38
paandroid is currently unbearable06:38
paiOS still the usual limiting shit06:38
paif only these arrogant finns would listen that their brainfucked UI is actually brainfucked..06:39
chriadamooi which parts?06:39
pasfos ui?06:39
palike all of it?06:39
chriadamdon't you like, I mean.  I'm not a Finn, but I'm always interested in hearing feedback about the UI, and can pass feedback onto the designers etc06:40
pafrom the home to the silica/pulley menu to the lo-res resembling theme06:40
pai was actually forced to reset the device yesterday06:40
chriadamthat's not very concrete.  are there specific things you don't like, which you think could be improved via incremental change, or is it that you don't liek the entire paradigm (of swipe gesture based ui)?06:40
paand it was very enlightening to get reminded how sfos was in 1.006:40
pain other words to see almost side by side Harmattan - SFOS 1.0 -  SFOS 2.206:41
pachriadam: i loved the harmattan /Swype ui06:42
paand i actually in some way liked even more the BB10 ui06:42
pabased on similar concepts06:42
pabut SF just managed to worsen it in almost every aspect06:43
pafailing to see it is blindness06:43
chriadamok, so are you saying that some specific UI elements in SFOS 2.x are unintuitive (not discoverable) or are difficult to perform (e.g. without stretching long distance with thumb, etc)?06:43
pai find it always very confusing to get the app drawer from the bottom06:43
pawith this L-shape virtual thing06:43
pathis is one thing06:44
chriadamby confusing, do you mean "sometimes it shows when it shouldn't" or do you mean "it's difficult to access when I want to"?06:44
pai mean "i always get somewhat lost in the navigation"06:44
pa(after 2 years i mean)06:44
paother specific feedbacks:06:44
chriadamswipe up from bottom = app drawer06:45
pathe quick menu from the notification screen: a mess, and why isnt there a settings shortcut? there are only sub-settings shortcuts06:45
chriadamafter the app drawer is open, swipe down = close app drawer06:45
pachriadam: i told you what i felt06:45
pai suppose there was a reason for doing it differently in harmattan and bb10..06:45
SmarI guess there is also reasons why HTC ended up to pretty similar workflow than SF has...06:46
pachriadam: then one thing i never understood is if the theme where the fonts looked soo lo-res was done to cover the crappy screen quality, or was just some ingenious idea of some designer06:46
chriadamthe quick menu in the events view page is greatly changed now in SFOS 3.x.  I don't know how much of that is public yet, but I think you'll be pleased with the SFOS 3.x changes06:47
pachriadam: at some point i even thought of writing down a long list of all things i really couldnt swallow06:47
pathen i didnt, coz i thought "whos gonna listen?"06:47
chriadampa: fonts looking bad is just a bug if it happens.  specifically, it's "we should tweak the distance field rendering parameters to ensure appropriate font weight under different ambience conditions"06:47
chriadampa: it's not so much "we don't listen" and more "we don't have enough developers to fix lots of the things we want to fix" so while we appreciate all feedback, we have to be very selective about prioritising high-value tasks and roadmapping them for fix/release06:48
chriadamI recently forwarded a list of such feebdack from ApBBB to MartinS and I know that some of those feedback points influenced decisions in SFOS3 design work06:49
chriadambut in general, from the outside I understand why it seems like the rate of progress is slow06:50
chriadam(because, in many ways: it is slow.  we have limited resources, and only a small amoutn of that can be spent on the UI polish, even though that's very "visible" to end users, because we have high priority tasks from business customers, etc, also)06:50
pachriadam: while i understand that, i somewhat have little trust in a company  coming from a very appreciated product and managing to screw the design from the beginning only to incrementally fix it, and "maybe with sfos3 we will like it" (6 years later?)06:50
chriadampa: sure, that's a partially valid criticism.  but SFOS was never intended to be a clone of Harmattan.  it was able to build upon its base, but the UI was never intended to be exactly that.  it has its own direction and flavour (which I think is a good thing, personally).06:51
pai mean, one could have been "chinese", just copy harmattan/bb10/whatever worked back then, use much less resources and yet have a much more intuitive product06:52
Nicd-pa: you could try a more polite tone and maybe your feedback would be received better :P06:54
pawhat i also always wondered is: releasing silica as closed source <-- how could you guys expected to motivate developers tailoring the apps for your ecosystem?06:55
pai mean it's available only for sfos06:56
paand, at least some releases back (not sure about now) sfos didnt have controls1/206:56
chriadam_sorry dc'd06:56
chriadam_missed whatever was said for the last 3 mins I think06:57
pachriadam_: pa: what i also always wondered is: releasing silica as closed source <-- how could you guys expected to motivate developers tailoring the apps for your ecosystem?06:58
chriadam_well, many or most developers always wanted to open source silica and the components etc06:59
chriadam_but there are a variety of complexities related to the developer ecosystem which maybe aren't immediately apparent to outsiders (e.g. promising source or binary compatibility, migrating older apps, application lifecycle management, etc)07:00
pachriadam_: then why not providing qt quick controls out of the box?07:00
chriadam_lots of things which need careful thought (and unfortunately lots of resources) to get right.  I personally think that the platform is lacking in a variety of areas there.  there are steps we know we need to take to get there, but that will take time07:01
payou sort of give your developers only one option: "use silica, and only for sailfish."07:01
chriadam_pa: I can't speak for that one specifically, I assume it's because the Qt Quick Controls doesn't match in any way the platform look and feel, i.e. Silica07:01
chriadam_pa: not quite.  you can bundle whatever you like with your app.  but promising to support it at the platform level is different.07:01
paexactly07:02
chriadam_i.e. once a platform commits to supporting something, well, that's a long term commitment.07:02
pachriadam_: i can speak for myself, and say that i haven't even consider porting anything to sfos, because of this.07:02
pai already ported 3 apps to android, otoh...07:02
chriadam_my personal mantra is: reduce external dependencies, reduce platform surface.07:02
pawhich is kind of ironic07:02
chriadam_pa: what do you mean?  are you worried that your app bundle will be too large?07:03
chriadam_(if you include qtquick controls in your app bundle, I mean)07:03
pano, i don't wnat to redo the UI with silica07:03
pai had them in qtquick107:03
pai just ported it to qtquick 207:03
chriadam_right, but you don't have to, right?  if you bundle qtquick2.controls with your app, I mean07:03
chriadam_maybe I'm misunderstanding07:03
pachriadam_: yes, but that's more work (builidng the qt module for sailfish etc etc)07:04
paif it was there already07:04
chriadam_true07:04
paboth in the device and sdk07:04
pai wouldnt have to do this07:04
chriadam_I agree.  but remember: this is true of literally every library (and heck programming environment / language runtime) in the universe07:05
chriadam_should we therefore commit to supporting everything in SFOS because apps might want to use those?  my personal opinion is: no, we should only support those ones which add the most value and make the most sense.  perhaps qtquick.controls2 is one such, I don't know.07:05
chriadam_but my mantra, personally, is: minimise external dependencies, and minimise platform surface.  we have too few development resources to do otherwise, IMO.07:06
pa if you expect developers to use the Qt5 to develop native mobile apps for silica, i dont see how thats gonna happen without either a) having controls2 or b) releasing silica for using it on different platforms (i agree b is difficult)07:07
paif you just expect android apps, well then it doesnt matter07:08
paand just use silica for the UI itself and done.07:08
panot a pretty product, in that case, tho07:08
chriadam_pa: long term, we want developers to explicitly target SFOS because of its (in the future) large installed customer base.  and at that point, we'd like developers to develop native, Silica applications.07:08
pa:-)07:09
chriadam_as of right this moment, my personal opinion is that there isn't much (financial) incentive for developers to do so, outside of personal interest.  but my opinion is that that also gives us some opportunity to improve some of the platform architecture...07:10
chriadam_in the future, I believe that financial incentive will indeed exist, when the installed base is large.07:11
pachriadam_: maybe i should write down that list. maybe not. in any case, hoping to not hurt anyone's feeling, i just want to conclude the discussion saying what your last sentences reads like: "In the future we want to be like Apple, forcing the developer to create apps adhering to our UI design. Just with our funky UI paradigm instead, which is largely not validated" (have you conducted user-studies for it, btw? if so, any public results?)07:15
chriadam_pa: not hurting feelings.  as I said, we appreciate feedback and discussion!  we know it comes from the right place (i.e. wanting to improve SFOS)07:15
chriadam_pa: it's not about forcing.  as said, you can bundle whatever you like.  but of course we'd like apps to use Silica as we believe that Silica looks nice.07:16
Nicd-pa: if you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, you should really reconsider how you make your points07:17
*** Blizzzek is now known as Blizzz09:48
pabtw09:51
paim 99% sure this has been reported already09:51
pawith Telegram on Jolla1 it's possible to unveil an input bug, hopefully caused by integration with Alien Dalvik09:52
pabasically: open a chat, then try to switch to short video message09:53
pait just won't do it09:53
pa(with the short press)09:53
panot sure if sailfish X or jolla c has the same issue09:53
*** leinir_ is now known as leinir11:13
*** Renault_ is now known as Renault11:52
r0kk3rzhttps://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/xiaomis-mi-mix-3-is-an-all-screen-magnetic-slider-phone-with-10gb-of-ram/12:31
r0kk3rzdirk's magnet slider design gone mainstream12:32
mornfallonly in this case, the pieces are not held together by magnets12:38
*** leinir_ is now known as leinir16:10
*** Renault_ is now known as Renault16:42

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