Thursday, 2020-09-17

flypigI think there's supposed to be a meeting about now?07:03
ahappyhumanI thought so as well07:03
maajussiYes, lets wait a couple of minutes if we get our moderator on site.07:03
ljoyes, that is my impression too07:03
ExTechOpThat's why I'm here.07:04
flypigI'll send a message internally. One second.07:04
flypigOkay, hopefully there'll be someone to sit in the chair soon.07:06
flypigmaajussi, sorry, I missed your message; should have left things in your capable hands :)07:09
maajussiHaha, no worries. It seems our regular moderator is unable to join this time, but luckily we found a perfect replacement!"07:10
flypig*clapping* *cheers*07:10
abranson#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th September 202007:10
sailbotMeeting started Thu Sep 17 07:10:56 2020 UTC. The chair is abranson. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:10
abranson#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
abransonI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.07:12
abranson#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info07:12
abranson#info Andrew Branson – Sailor @ Jolla07:12
maajussi#info Jussi Maaniitty - Sailor @ Jolla07:13
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä - community07:13
abransonlooks like the topic changing isn't really working07:13
abransonbut never mind07:13
Nico[m]#info Nico - community07:13
TheKit#info Nikita Ukhrenkov (*Kit) - Sailor @ Jolla07:13
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ jolla07:13
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla07:13
ahappyhuman#info Chris Josten - community07:14
spiiroin#info Simo Piiroinen - sailor @ jolla07:16
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla07:17
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot07:18
abranson#topic  Separation or more freedom to the community for parts of the OS that are not relevant to the commercial clients. (15 mins by ApB)07:18
*** sailbot changes topic to "Separation or more freedom to the community for parts of the OS that are not relevant to the commercial clients. (15 mins by ApB) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th September 2020)"07:18
abranson#info Its kind of a weird topic since its not much of a question but more of a discussion around how to make the community work better with Jolla. The idea comes from a comment by @pmelas . Parts of the OS are probably (??) not that important to the commercial side of things.07:18
abranson#info Has jolla thought of separating (or maybe opening) those parts -apps mainly- from the parts that commercial clients care about so that the community can (potentially) improve them??? Or for more freedom in the store since in a commercial environment/work phone a user will be limited to what the company decides.07:19
flypigSailbot woke up :)07:19
maajussiI think this is more of a discussion point.07:20
flypigWe're missing Sefriol I think.07:20
maajussiWe could start this answer by asking what are the most critical problems with contributions? Certainly the closed source trees are one aspect of a problem but what else is there?07:20
maajussireviewed. This collected information would definitely help us in trying to provide solutions for the problems in order of priority.07:20
ExTechOp^ Is the above a copy-paste with parts missing? "reviewed." ???07:21
abransonwhich part?07:22
ExTechOpI'm just wondering about the seemingly disconnected word "reviewed."?07:22
ahappyhumanI am wondering that as well.07:23
maajussiThe question is rather complex. My understanding of it was that there is a request to open source certain parts of the code that are currently closed source. While that is an ongoing task that we constantly discuss and work on. I'd like to understand better what are the more critical topics that are problems when contributing.07:25
flypigThere's a process for allowing access to the closed-source part. Perhaps it's a bit unclear for many people what's involved with that?07:26
maajussiMaybe the answer was not my finest work, but I'd like to understand this in bigger picture.07:26
abransonIRC sometimes chops off long strings without telling you07:26
flypigI guess there's sometimes a problem that the closed and open parts interact quite carefully, so it's hard to contribute to the open parts without having access to the closed parts?07:27
flypigI'm just thinking out loud. Maybe these aren't real problems?07:28
abransonyeah it's often the case that the backend is open while the UI isn't07:28
Nico[m]I think the most critical thing to contributions is obviously Qt and that the whole UI is married to that. Currently the porting to Qt6 is already causing some issues with supporting sailfish as well for some libraries, since Qt6 removed some stuff, where alternatives were only added in 5.15. It would be nice if one could build a completely open source version of SFOS, that is just missing some enterprise features07:28
Nico[m]instead of having to rely on official RPMs. (But I probably don't know enough about that matter)07:28
flypigNico[m], you may have noticed that there's already been some community work to move components to the Qt6 api. E.g. dcaliste has been doing this for qmf.07:30
Nico[m]flypig: Yes, I have. But afaik supporting Qt < 5.15 at the same time is complicated.07:31
ahappyhumanOne of the things which I am slightly saddened by is for example the Messages app. It is a Telepathy frontend, which in my eyes is an hub for connecting a lot of IM accounts in one place. I've tried running and contributing to the Matrix Connection Manager, but the result is a bit dissapointing since the Messages app ignores most of the information the Connection Manager provides about the chats. It for07:31
ahappyhumanexample ignores most group properties, the UI doesn't allow you to start chats with non-contacts and non-phonenumbers and so on.07:31
flypigNico[m], I guess qmf doesn't have its own UI, so maybe that avoids this issue.07:31
flypigahappyhuman, so that's a limitation of the front-end, which is mostly QML, but technically closed source?07:32
flypigahappyhuman, what would you need access to, in order to help resolve that?07:33
ahappyhumanMostly yes, and maybe as far as I know some of the glue between the front-end and back-end.07:33
Nico[m]flypig: It seems like he found a workaround for the toList() and toSet() churn at least, yes07:34
flypigNico[m], yes, there's a patch in gerrit related to that.07:35
abransonThink time's about up, if anyone has anything else to add...07:36
flypigahappyhuman, would you consider going down the "signing up to closed source access" route to help with that?07:36
ExTechOpSo, could larger parts of this interface to Messages be made public or could it be expanded?07:36
ahappyhumanflypig: I believe the jolla-message is the main closed-source part07:37
ahappyhumanflypig: the rest of the components seem to be open source07:37
flypigahappyhuman, so, if you had access to that, either in an open or closed way, would you consider contributing to fix the issues? I'm just wondering if your sadness is due to access, or because it doesn't just work already, if you see what I mean.07:38
ahappyhumanflypig: I would be able to fix certain parts, but I'm also not entirely confident in my UI-design skills. And there seem to be a lot of problems in the state of Telepathy right now and it it's not something I would be able to fix on my own.07:40
abransoni've checked that and it looks more open than some. the qml-plugin is OSS.07:40
ahappyhumanMy sadness is mostly due it not working and not being able to fix that07:40
abransoni do think that's ripe for a community UI. The jolla one is really quite simple.07:41
abransonisn't most of the work going to be in
ahappyhumanIf the UI was working, I would probably not care too much about the access07:41
ThaodanDo you want to contribute to the Jolla messages ui?07:42
abransonqml bits:
flypigYeah, there's probably a lot that could be done with even a simple open UI on top of all that.07:42
ahappyhumanThaodan: I would like to, I'm mostly hesitating because Telepathy seems to be pretty complex and while I have a general idea how it works, I don't know all the fine details07:43
flypigahappyhuman, could you list (elsewhere) the changes you think would be needed to get the messaging app to work well with Matrix? It'd at least be interesting to know how far off it is.07:44
abransonthat's what piggz did with the camera. but it's still a lot of work07:44
abransonthough I don't think the qml plugin for the camera is OSS, so he had less to start with07:44
abransonOk, I'll try to sum up and we'll move on. I got the missing part of maajussi's answer07:46
* ahappyhuman sent a long message: < >07:47
flypigHmm. The Accounts Settings is quite a topic.07:48
flypigThanks for that ahappyhuman.07:48
abranson#info We could start this answer by asking what are the most critical problems with contributions? Certainly the closed source trees are one aspect of a problem07:48
abranson#info but what else is there? Do you have problems with missing guidance? Problems with an SDK's? Problems with contributing to git trees, e.g., creating pull07:48
abranson#info requests? Problems with getting things reviewed. This collected information would definitely help us in trying to provide solutions for the problems in07:48
abranson#info order of priority.07:48
abransonwas that better?07:48
maajussiAt least I see the message as a whole now.07:48
abransonaccount settings is a good point though - i don't think very much of that is open?07:49
abransonand that's a pretty important part of adding additional messaging accounts07:49
flypigYes, it's closed, but a lot of it is qml, so can be viewed.07:49
flypigBut it's quite challenging.07:50
abransonyeah. it's always the qml-plugins that end up the most opaque there07:50
abransonespecially as there's no header or anything to see what they're made of07:50
Nico[m]Is there some overview document, that shows which repo goes where in the stack? It's a bit hard to find the actual repo you are looking for, if you just have a general idea of what you want to do. But I can, you can always ask in that case? Also, there doesn't seem to be a good way to contribute to the documentation, which is usually the easiest way to start contributing.07:50
ExTechOpBack in the day, connectivity (achieved through Messages) was really one of the nicest parts of Sailfish visible to the end user, unfortunately it's somewhat degraded since07:51
flypigExTechOp, to be fair, that's as much to do with the messaging landscape changing, I think.07:51
flypigMany proprietary systems now, and more varied approaches.07:51
abransonyeah, though that's partly because the world moved away from intergrated messaging and into standalone apps. which was pretty terrible imho :)07:51
ExTechOpflypig Indeed, but even so, the problem with Matrix integration shows there could be improvement here07:52
ahappyhumanAnd messaging seems to have evolved quite a lot, with server side histoory and what not. Telepathy hasn't been able to keep up07:52
abransonflypig: typed pretty much the same as you but slower sorry :)07:52
abransonahappyhuman: yes, though there has been work done on telepathy to catch up.07:53
maajussiRelated to problems with contributions - what ever they are, related to access to documentation, missing SDK features etc. Would it be possible to start creating a "wiki" kind of document in our new forum?07:53
abransonI think a lot of people were waiting for xmpp to catch up, but it got bogged down with too many extensions07:53
Thaodanahappyhuman maybe ping Kaffeine  on that, he did much work modernizing it.07:53
abransonyeah that's the guy07:53
ExTechOpMove on?07:54
ExTechOpTo the next meeting item, that is.07:55
ahappyhumanThaodan: I'll will07:55
maajussiI think this set topic was the only one on the list.07:55
flypigI had a follow-up from last week about E2E testing.07:56
abransonhang on a sec07:56
flypig"last week" = "last meeting"07:56
Nico[m]Weekly meetings confirmed07:56
abranson#info The Messaging app was pointed out as a good example of an app that is blocking community contributions due to its lack of support for group messaging, and there being no support for third party account plugins.07:57
flypigNice summary.07:57
ahappyhumanI agree07:57
abransondo we have any way forward on that?07:57
abransonI'll move on07:58
abranson#topic “E2E testing in Sailfish” brief followup (flypig - 5mins)07:58
*** sailbot changes topic to "“E2E testing in Sailfish” brief followup (flypig - 5mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th September 2020)"07:58
abranson#info Last meeting @Sefriol asked about end-to-end testing 1 of SFOS components. This will be a very brief follow-up to that question, since I promised to do so. Here’s the discussion from the last meeting 3 for reference.07:58
abransonsorry for the 3 :)07:58
flypig"3 clicks" :)07:59
abransonand the one07:59
abransonthe floor's yours, flypig07:59
flypigThanks :) This is just a follow-up. Sefrial mentioned a paper that linked to a BitBucket repo that was inaccessible.08:00
flypigSo one of the authors, Andrey Vasilyev, kindly went out of his way to put it back up in a repo.08:00
flypigHere's the link08:01
flypigApparently this is an extended version of the original which they continued to work on.08:01
flypigThey also mentioned this, which I thought might be interesting to some people:08:01
flypig"The main idea behind the tool is to automate the testing in the CI environment. It allows to build the RPM packages, install them onto the VM and then execute testing applications."08:02
flypig"Some of the tool features duplicate the features of the recently introduced sfdk tool that is shipped with the Sailfish SDK. Also there may be issues with the latest release of the SDK, the code is currently used along with 3.0.7 release. "08:02
flypigAndrey was really helpful, so for anyone interested, you could get in touch with him (but I wouldn't expect any support, of course).08:03
flypigI think the point about sfdk is interesting: there's much more scope to automate the build process now.08:03
flypigThat's it. Monologue over :)08:03
ahappyhumanI really like the sfdk-tool. Made my life a lot easier :)08:04
flypigI know the SDK team put a lot of work into it; they'll be happy to hear it.08:04
abransonok, shall i move on to general discussion? anything more to add?08:06
ahappyhumanMaybe I've overlooked it, but maybe it would be helpful if there was a quick guide on how to set up the required config before building. That was confusing for me when I first started using it08:06
abransonthat sounds like general discussion to me :)08:07
abranson#topic General Discussion (20 min)08:07
*** sailbot changes topic to "General Discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th September 2020)"08:07
ViGeahappyhuman: what do mean with "required config"? sfdk config target=something?08:07
ahappyhumanViGe: yes, you can find it by running the sfdk <command> --help a few times, but a quick start guide would be appreciated.08:08
Nico[m]Has the SDK team considered providing official docker images, that you can use without installing the full SDK? Coderus provides some and they work really well, so it may not make much sense, but with the move away from OBS it would be nice, if there was something you can always depend on in CI and such, so it may make sense to make the official?08:09
ViGeahappyhuman: point taken08:09
ExTechOpCan anyone give an estimate on when Sailfish 3.4 will come out, since it was bumped forward from "early September"? I'm a bit ticked that broke eg. Android external memory device access and Google account calendar synch.08:10
ThaodanNIco[m]: the sdk already supports docker.08:11
maajussiCan't say an exact date for the 3.4 release. Should be available shortly.08:11
ahappyhumanViGe: Like something in the scope of explaining how to build your first hello-world application with sfdk. Otherwise the reference documentation is clear and useful.08:11
flypigViGe, perhaps it would be worth converting your blog post into a post on the forum?08:11
Nico[m]Thaodan: I know, but it is a bit expensive to install a full SDK inside a CI pipeline, pulling a docker image is simpler.08:11
ahappyhumanflypig: that would be a great idea imo08:11
ahappyhumanOr like a section on the Sailfish developer website08:14
martyoneNico[m]: some work is planned in that respect, but providing plain docker images is not the approach we would like to take. It doesn't fit the big picture well.08:14
ThaodanSo the question is different. Its about could you run it inside a ci pipeline and distribute it independent of the rest of the SDK?08:14
Nico[m]Thaodan: Yeah, I guess08:15
abransonflypig: maybe we should drop that awful blog comments thing and link every blog post to its own forum thread instead08:15
maajussiI like the idea08:15
Nico[m]martyone: Well, a plain docker image is very easy to use in a CI pipeline, but if you have a better idea, I'm all ears!08:16
flypigYeah, that's be good.08:16
flypig"that'd to good", re blog comments.08:16
flypigI don't know much about Wordpress, but there must be a discord plugin for it.08:18
maajussiShall we move on the agree on the next meeting schedule?08:18
flypigAh. Discord. Discourse. You know what I mean.08:18
abransonooh that would be swanky08:18
Thaodanflypig: you meabn discourse not discord08:18
flypigThaodan: I do :)08:19
abransoni was just thinking about disabling comments and sticking a link manually at the bottom of every blog post08:19
abransonimagine embedding discord on every blog post. it'd be carnage.08:19
ThaodanI thought you wanted to add yet another service :D08:19
ExTechOpmaajussi Let's.08:19
martyoneNico[m]: I am not ready to tell you more right now08:19
maajussiFor the next meeting I would ask, if this 7am UTC is ok time? Was the usual time something else?08:20
ExTechOpI think it was an hour later?08:21
flypigYeah, that's my recollection too.08:21
ApBBBmaajussi the usual was later in the day and is the reason i missed my question. :/08:21
maajussi8am UTC? Would that be better?08:21
ApBBBappologies for that08:21
martyoneahappyhuman: "you can find it by running the sfdk <command> --help a few times, but a quick start guide would be appreciated." - maybe you missed "sfdk --help-all"?08:21
ahappyhumanI'm fine with 7am UTC, although I have to say this is the first meeting I've been too08:21
ApBBBshould have looked into the time better08:21
maajussiYes, I think I made the mistake with the schedule and it resulted in the slow start today - I understood wrong something.08:22
ExTechOpThis time works for me, also later would work. Of course it could coincide with lunch time in Finland.08:22
flypigYeah, the later meeting did tend to get cut off by Finnish lunch.08:23
ahappyhumanmartyone: I think I missed that one, woopsie08:23
maajussiThis needs a poll tool for the schedule discussion ;)08:24
abransonok, any more general discussion before we move onto that?08:24
ExTechOpThe problem of course is, we don't have here the people for whom this time is inappropriate.08:24
Nico[m] ominous :D08:25
abranson#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:25
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 17th September 2020)"08:25
martyoneNico[m]: :)08:25
maajussiProposing 1st October at 7am UTC08:26
ExTechOpI was about to also nominate 2020-10-01T07Z08:26
abransonmaajussi: +108:26
abranson#info Next meeting will be held on 1st October 2020 at 0700 UTC:  2020-10-01T07Z08:27
abransongotta be precise :D08:27
maajussiI think we have the majority vote! See you then!08:27
abransonok, thanks all!08:27
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Sep 17 08:27:55 2020 UTC.08:27
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 17th of September 2020 at 7:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"08:27
flypigThanks :)08:28
ExTechOpThanks, folks!08:28
abransonI'll try to set the topic for the next meeting, but I don't think I have the rights08:28
abranson#topic Next meeting will be held on Thursday 1st October 2020 at 7:00 UTC. Topic forum thread TBC08:29
abransonmaybe sailbot has a list of people it listens to outside of meetings08:29
abransonhopefully maajussi is one of them08:29
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Monday 1st of October 2020 at 7:00 UTC."08:29
Thaodanabranson msg chanserv for that08:30
flypigNice work Thaodan :)08:30
abransonThaodan: can you do that? my irc fu isn't good.08:37
abransonoh, you did08:37
*** chris is now known as Guest5185311:12

Generated by 2.17.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!