Thursday, 2021-05-20

sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 202107:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu May 20 07:00:01 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. May the 20th be with you, and please respect the timings.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:00
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - Sailor@Jolla07:00
Nico-old-defunct#info Nico, community07:01
attah_w#info attah, community, participating passively07:01
* Nico-old-defunct wonders how bad his Nick is on IRC right now and if my messages make it through :D07:01
sledgescan hear you 5 by 507:02
Nico-old-defunctPerfect :D07:02
pketo#info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla07:02
sledgesyou're definitely not defunct:)07:02
Nico-old-defunctOne day .-.07:02
piggz#info piggz, community porter, probably heading off on the school run, crazy meeting time :D07:02
lbt#info David Greaves - sailor at Jolla07:04
Nico-old-defunctSmall round this time, huh?07:04
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla07:04
Karry18#info Lukas Karas - community developer07:05
sledgesNext topic is about Freenode's hostile takeover, please avoid/douse flame warsduring discussion:)07:05
sledgesTo clarify, Freenode is not shutting down as a service, as opposed to the topic title.07:05
sledges#topic Freenode shutting down and how this affects #sailfish channels (15 min -- asked by Nico-young-spirited)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Freenode shutting down and how this affects #sailfish channels (15 min -- asked by Nico-young-spirited) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"07:05
Nico-old-defunctHm, I did not intend to imply that, my bad :D07:05
Nico-old-defunctI just copied it from somewhere07:06
sledgesrename? ;) especially to those who might be joining and seeing topic title:)07:06
sailbotRemoving item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7f3d2887ee80>07:06
ExTechOp"Freenode under new management"?07:06
sledges#topic Freenode has been 'hostilely taken over' and how this affects #sailfish channels (15 min -- asked by Nico-young-spirited)07:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Freenode has been 'hostilely taken over' and how this affects #sailfish channels (15 min -- asked by Nico-young-spirited) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"07:06
Nico-old-defunctFreenode being "taken over" and how this affect sailfish?07:06
sledgesif that's even a word:)07:06
Nico-old-defunctYeah, sounds right07:06
sledges#info <Nico-young-spirited> Most of the Freenode staff left after a hostile takeover and founded yesterday. For context see the forum thread07:07
sledges#info and07:07
sledges#link https://www.kline.sh07:07
sledges#info <Nico-young-spirited> Sailfish has used Freenode for communication for a long time (including this meeting). Will those channels move to libera, stay on Freenode or even some alternative, like Matrix? Where will the next meeting be?07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> Depending on how further events will unravel, we have at least three alternatives:,, and Matrix.07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> Dear community, do you know which one of these has the friendliest infra to have sailbot running (channel logs and meeting minutes), as well as for deploying Telegram/IRC/Matrix bridge bots?07:08
ExTechOpI believe Matrix is still kinda experimental, and porting the channel with bridge bots would require a fair amount of work from "someone"?07:09
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - sailor @ Jolla07:09
Nico-old-defunctI'm part of the Matrix community, developing Nheko and Konheko. While matrix does not have sailbot, it is pretty easy to write your own bots there and the Telegram bridge is exceptional07:10
ThaodanMatrix is nice but the clients are not as good as for IRC07:10
Nico-old-defunctBridging a Matrix room to IRC generally works, both via matrix-ircd and the irc-appservice, iirc07:10
ThaodanThat would a step backwards07:11
Nico-old-defunctBut the other direction is usually more common07:11
lbtwe have developed matrix bots internally07:11
ThaodanNico-old-defunct: matrix-ircd is alpha state at best07:11
lbtthey have improved recently07:11
Nico-old-defunct(FTR, I'm messaging from Matrix)07:11
Nico-old-defunctThaodan: The usual appsevice bridge should work fine though too?07:11
ThaodanNico-old-defunct: sure it does, if the or OFTC or something has that fine07:12
Nico-old-defunctlibera is still being set up, since the libera staff is currently a bit busy and we didn't want to bother them too much. There is a meeting to talk details this weekend07:13
ThaodanSounds good.07:13
Nico-old-defunctoftc is running for a while already07:13
ThaodanI can move my Telegram bridge to either. OFTC is used by many other projects including GCC, QEMU and Bitlbee.07:14
Nico-old-defunct(You just join, and you can join pretty much all IRC channels there)07:14
Nico-old-defunctWe also have the option to just wait and see a bit. I think Qt is still discussing it, but the named Matrix, libera and oftc as options. KDE seems to be moving to libera, but uses Matrix already too, etc07:15
pketoI guess easiest thing to do on short notice would be to switch to some other irc network. From Jolla side that would be just about registering the channels and pointing the sailbot there07:16
sledgesthe channel placeholders on oftc have already been registered to avoid takeovers07:17
Nico-old-defunctLong term something like Matrix may be nice, since it allows you to setup a space, where you can link multiple rooms, which helps discoverability, you can easily send images and other files and in general is probably easier to use for the younger crowd.07:17
piggzwhatever is chosen, please think about mal
Thaodanhe is not the only one :D Communi is still one of the best options for messaging on Sailfish OS with bitlbee :D07:18
Nico-old-defunctlibera has an official policy of how to claim channel names, which should be easy enough to do for something like Sailfish:
ViGeI would prefer IRC as well. I think OFTC is a good candidate, but then again I think we don't have to move over right now. We could just wait a bit, let the dust settle.07:19
sledgesas long as we already have read-write IRC/Matrix bridge, the switch to Matrix could take place at any point in the future. short term is just to choose an IRC network07:19
Nico-old-defunctViGe, that's something someone on IRC would say!07:19
ThaodanViGe: The dust/freenode-staff already moved07:20
ThaodanNico-old-defunct: Or someone that wants better matrix clients..07:20
lbtHaving switched to matrix I have to say I overall prefer it to irc. The resistance I felt was more unwillingness to change from the layout I was used to :D07:20
Nico-old-defunctI guess we have to decide between oftc and libera then?07:21
sledgeslet's hope this Freenodegate will trigger someone to write a decent text-based matrix client with e2e :)07:21
Nico-old-defunctsledges: Like gomuks?07:21
sledgesfor example:))07:22
Thaodanmatrix-ircd is an option when it is further in progress, it is rust based but hey.07:22
Nico-old-defunct(weechat also seems to be an option)07:22
ThaodanAlso there is weechat-matrix07:22
Nico-old-defunctThaodan, I think as long as we bridge to an existing server, the irc-appservice is the better choice07:22
Nico-old-defunctSo we could just pick an IRC network now, and then later move primary to Matrix, but still have all the channels on that network07:23
ThaodanNico-old-defunct: true just pointing out for those that need matrix e.g. to connect to mozilla07:23
sledgesNico-old-defunct: the question holds: will a chosen IRC network support all desired bridges and bots07:23
Nico-old-defunctRight, no idea about bots and bridges on IRC sadly ._.07:24
pketofrom the irc network options, I would maybe not jump to libera yet at this point. as it is new and setup by the other party in a still slightly unclear situation. (at least it is a bit unclear to me what has happenend. been trying to gather information from both sides)07:24
diego[m]4Matrix is awesome! And so are Nico's clients, haha07:24
Nico-old-defunctthanks ;p07:25
pketosailbot shouldn't really care to what irc network it is talking to07:26
sledgesok, thanks for all the gathered info, we have plenty to digest; we can now move on to SFOS 4.1.0 EA discussion:)07:26
sledges#topic General discussion (15 min)07:26
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"07:26
Nico-old-defunctSounds good :307:26
lbtpketo: worth registering though07:26
Thaodansledges that link ^ might help07:27
Thaodan(previous topic)07:27
piggzone topic for me ... well, a few, OBS.... 4.1 and aarch64 :)07:27
Nico-old-defunctSo we stick to freenode for now and then make a decision in the future, while we gather info about which network supports our setups?07:27
sledgesNico-old-defunct: certainly cannot make a decision today07:28
Nico-old-defunctCertainly :307:28
attah_w4.1 is nice, and with new fancy hardware it's even better07:28
diego[m]4Yeah, I've really enjoyed it on Xperia 10 II07:29
diego[m]4Thank you so much for working on this! Great OS07:29
sledgesbattery life is something else:)07:29
Nico-old-defunctAnyway, about 4.1.0, I've installed it on my shiny, new and blue X10 II. When typing it feels like the vibration by the haptic motor is about twice as long as it should be07:29
diego[m]4Do you have more or less an ETA on Exchange? Sadly I've had to flash Android back because I need it for work :(07:29
sledgesNico-old-defunct: the motor is more intert in general07:29
* Nico-old-defunct googles intert07:30
attah_wNico-old-defunct: You mean actually doing the vibrations intended?07:30
Nico-old-defunctattah_w: The problem is that it doesn't feel like a click, it vibrates07:30
sledgesdiego[m]4: is vibra motor haptics feedback brief enough in android now that you flashed it?07:31
attah_wSimilar to before, no?07:31
Nico-old-defunctYeah, I just notice it more now07:31
attah_wI feel it is more precise07:31
Nico-old-defunctI feel like it should be shorter, but the same intensity07:31
diego[m]4<sledges "diego: is vibra motor haptics fe"> I always turn it off because it drives me crazy, it's too strong on this phone07:31
attah_wBTW... can someone wake up developer-care?07:32
sledgesok, so probably it just can't spin in shorter bursts07:32
diego[m]4I didn't notice it being longer in SFOS. It's just quite a strong one both in Android and SFOS07:32
Nico-old-defunctsledges: I think it span shorter, when I still had the phone on Android. Or at least it didn't feel like a vibration, but more like a click?07:32
Nico-old-defunctMaybe I am imagining things :D07:33
ViGeattah_w: what do you mean by "wake up developer-care"? you have sent email but haven't received a reply?07:33
attah_wyes, SeaPrint is stuck in some weird state in harbour07:33
diego[m]4Ok I've just turned it on with the default setting07:33
attah_wsent an email a week ago07:33
ExTechOpSony Xperia 10 II support has been "coming soon" for a while now, anyone in the know care to offer an estimate on when soon is?07:33
Nico-old-defunctExTechOp: I mean, it is in beta now, so probably end of EA07:34
diego[m]4The intensity of vibration varies: goes from soft if you're not typing fast to quite strong if you're typing a lot. I don't recall it being too different in SFOS, but maybe I'm not remembering correctly07:34
sledgesdiego[m]4: if you type extremely quickly, does it just spin?07:34
diego[m]4Not quite07:35
diego[m]4It's almost at that level, but you can still feel it's individual bursts even when typing quickly07:35
ExTechOpNico-old-defunct End of episodic ataxia?
diego[m]4I'm turning it off now, horrible feedback, hahaha07:35
sledgeswell if you an always tell a tap from a double tap, then hopefully sfos can be improved still07:35
Nico-old-defunctExTechOp: More like early access, which 4.1.0 is in right now, but yes ;p07:36
sledgesunless stock android has some closed blobs that even aosp doesn't get hands on :p07:36
ViGeattah_w: sorry about that. We will look at it.07:36
attah_wViGe thanks!07:36
Nico-old-defunctSo Sony just has bad haptic engines? :D07:37
sledgesdepends on SoC and how expensive the motor was07:37
Nico-old-defunctHm, on my X compact the haptics are super weak, but at least it is clearly one tap07:38
sledgesthey may have balanced the funds to have OLED display, but then had to save on other hw bits07:38
Nico-old-defunctI mean, that would make sense, but also is a bit sad :D07:38
sledgesif only we could bring sneak-peek mode on this OLED 8)07:39
Nico-old-defunctAt least the screen is gorgeus!07:39
Nico-old-defunctI want my always on clock back :307:39
Nico-old-defunctI've been waiting for an OLED screen since my N9!07:39
sledgessame here07:40
Nico-old-defunctAlso, can I make the phone smaller somehow? It feels sooo big ;p07:41
diego[m]4Hahaha, it's quite big, yes07:42
Nico-old-defunctAnd when do we get support for the different cameras in the camera app?07:42
diego[m]4But it's also quite narrow, I like that07:42
attah_wGrow bigger hands? (:07:42
sledgeswasn't sony bringing the compact range this/next year, to rival that mini iphone again07:42
Nico-old-defunctIt is a bit too long for my pockets, it always peeks out at the top .-.07:42
Nico-old-defunctsledges: I heard that, but I didn't see anything actually happening07:42
Nico-old-defunctMaybe it was just wishful thinking07:43
attah_wsledges only rumors, right?07:43
diego[m]4Also the iPhone mini didn't sell that well, no?07:43
ExTechOpOld geezers like myself enjoy bigger screens, as you can make the fonts reasonably bigger to compensate for presbyopia07:43
Nico-old-defunctIsn't the 5III the same size as the 10 approximately?07:44
attah_wat least for the II-range they are07:44
Nico-old-defunctI think they are both 6 inches, so the 5III is not really compact07:45
sledgeslooks like they removed the word 'compact' from the rest of the article :p07:45
Nico-old-defunctI mean, the 10 is barely wider than my X compact, but the length is noticeable and it doesn't balance as well in my hand07:46
Nico-old-defunctI always am scared it will tip over .-.07:46
Nico-old-defunctAnd I need to reposition my hands quite often07:46
Nico-old-defunctBuuuut, I guess nothing anyone here can do about that :D07:46
Nico-old-defunctNow someone just needs to recompile all the software for aarch64... Still missing a great audio player and some games ;p07:47
sledgespiggz: you were sayin' OBS 4.1.0 and aarch64?..07:48
diego[m]4<Nico-old-defunct "Now someone just needs to recomp"> Including your matrix client 😂07:49
Nico-old-defunct<diego[m]4 "Including your matrix client 😂"> That one I will do tomorrow07:50
Nico-old-defunctI have the hardware now, just need to do a presentation later today, which I still need to prepare07:50
Nico-old-defunctGuess I'll port then too07:51
diego[m]4<diego[m]4 "Do you have more or less an ETA "> Anything on this?07:51
Nico-old-defunctI think the proprietary bits were planned for 4.1.0 stable07:52
sledgesthat's right07:53
Nico-old-defunctBtw, if the original author of a harbour app is not active anymore, what would the process look like to take over maintainership?07:54
sledgesbe patient, we're ironing some wrinkles, so stable is better than ever07:54
ViGeNico-old-defunct: The process goes that you ask the old maintainer to write to us and ask for the transfer of the maintainership07:55
santhoshmOff-late, 4.1 EA is one of the stable releases. It didn't have any breaking issues. Credits for that team.07:56
Nico-old-defunctOkay, sounds good. Maybe they are still active, but with the last update in 2016, I just wanted to know what the other option was :307:56
sledgesNico-old-defunct: just ping them:)07:57
piggzsledges: any update on plan for OBS .... repo hosting?07:57
piggzsledges: any plan to fix aarch64 on obs?07:57
piggz(eg, i could do wth packaging amazfish and advanced-cam for aarch64)07:57
Nico-old-defunctsledges: That is the plan. I'm just looking through all the apps I'm missing atm :307:57
lbtpiggz: I've been really busy recently so I haven't had time to dig into why aarch64 isn't working07:59
lbtI'm thinking that I need to bite the bullet and upgrade the OBS version there07:59
sledgesrinigus' tbuilder in the meantime?:)07:59
sledgesfor tumbleweed and cuppa tea times, don't forget :) kudos to flypig again!08:01
piggzsledges: yes, however, for amazfish, i need to pacakge versions fo different releases dues to libicu ... and while tbuilder can do the build, i cant host them anywhere08:01
piggzlbt: that would be great :)08:01
ViGeyup, should be walk in the park to build amazfish and friends with tbuilder. As for hosting.. openrepos?08:02
piggzViGe: open repos doesnt support different packages for different versions08:03
ThaodanViGe: openrepos is different than obs repos just flat repos08:03
attah_wno chance to hack it together with dlopen/dlsym?08:03
piggzunless i create a seperate account for each arch/version, and that would suck08:03
Thaodanpiggz ping me about repos08:03
ThaodanI can host them for you08:04
sledgeswould it be possible to add such capability to openrepos?08:04
sledgesi.e. custom dir structure repo upload (or simply, hosting directory access to an uploader)08:04
Thaodanopenrepos is like harbour with less restrictions not the best place for that08:04
sledgesall one needs is a directory with repomd.xml08:04
sledgesjust brainstorming about practical alternatives when obs goes under08:05
piggzThaodan: thx, i know you are offering something ... though, its still extra work to build and upload, which is what OBS does automatically, adding to the long lst of things im doing08:05
piggzsledges: when obs goes under ... pls try not to move burden of packaging/hosting onto devs08:06
Thaodanpiggz: true however there is no fix for that except rsync source -> dest08:06
sledgespiggz: try to move that burden to tbuilder by extending it?08:06
Nico-old-defunctI mean, packaging is easy enough, hosting is complicated for me08:06
attah_wpiggz: is the call to libicu directly from your code?08:06
sledgesso tbuilder just uploads everything creating ver/arch struture08:07
Nico-old-defunctIt would be great if openrepos supported multiple versions though :308:07
Nico-old-defunct(And harbour)08:07
piggzattah_w: the kexi libraries use libicu08:07
piggzso no08:07
attah_wokay :/08:08
Thaodanalso don't use hacks that sounds horrible08:08
sledgesbtw, lbt pketo, is #mer-boss still alive on freenode?08:08
lbtmmm it should be08:09
sledgessomething to keep in mind when we do irc switchover then08:09
fridlmuesorry, im 'a little' late. As I read on Telegram and now want to add a note. I have a Sony Case for the 10 II and if I open it the screen turns on. That is nice. Now if it is locked its all fine. But if it is already unlocked i can't forward to the next screen with the power button/fingerprint. So if I set to lock after some minuits in the menu I have to swipe sometimes and use the fingerprint sometimes. Is that intended?08:09
piggz sledges: tbuilder on a cloud platform would be acceptable ... one of the best obs features for a porter is to just trigger all the packages to build, and leave it to it, while closing own computer08:09
ThaodanSounds good but with trawbacks e.g.  no parallel builds and what is the "cloud"08:10
sledgesi understand that ramping down obs is like taking a candy away. can tbuilder be churning on some gitlab CI, just like imageworks?08:11
ThaodanIt could08:11
Thaodanbut again no parallel builds unless there is some CI logic that allows orchestration08:11
piggzsledges: not quite like takng candy ... more like, taking candy, and saying, if you ever want more candy, here are the ingredients ;)08:13
lbtI'm still talking to people internally about the future/timeline for the OBS08:15
sledgesThaodan: can you do parallel builds with tbuilder on own box?08:15
sledgesif not, then it doesn't matter if we're talking about cloud or local builds, and that's something that needs solved in order to speed up builds, if becomes a huge time problem08:16
attah_wSpeaking of automation, any chance for opening up an API for automatically uploading releases to store?08:16
ThaodanLocally possibly but you need something to trigger jobs - in the end you replicate OBS..08:16
Nico-old-defunctWhat would prevent parallel builds on gitlab CI?08:17
Nico-old-defunctAfaik all jobs run parallel by default, if they are in the same stage08:17
ThaodanNico-old-defunct: dependency logic - build cycles08:18
Nico-old-defunctAh, I see08:18
sledgesfridlmue: will try to replicate, but just so you know, double tapping fingerprint reader (on any sfos device) unlocks and goes to home screen08:19
sledgessame with double-pressing power button (if lock is not set)08:20
sledgeswill see what changes when magnetic cover is in action though08:20
sledgestime to wrap up for today08:20
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:20
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th May 2021)"08:20
sledgesProposing Thursday 3rd June at 7am UTC08:21
Nico-old-defunctOn freenode? ;p08:21
sledgeshopefully Freenode storm will have resolved by then in one way or another08:21
Nico-old-defunctSounds alright08:21
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd June 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-06-03T07Z08:22
sledgesthanks for all the free nodes out there!08:22
fridlmuesledges: thank you. My observation: If opened and unlocked: Screen is going on to "display on screen" but you cant go to homescreen by anything but swipe. Thanks for investigating!08:22
sailbotMeeting ended Thu May 20 08:22:48 2021 UTC.08:22
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 20th May 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:22
Nico-old-defunctThanks for the meeting everyone :308:22
piggz wonder if the xkcd could be changed to ... and there was one guy still using OBS08:23
Nico-old-defunctI wonder, since it is pretty easy to shut down the service for that guy ;p08:24
Nico-old-defunctIt would be nice to have a harbour API though, so that one can upload packages from CI jobs .-.08:25
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd June 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:29
ExTechOpThank you!08:42
*** abr is now known as abranson13:31
*** abr is now known as abranson13:51

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