Thursday, 2022-01-20

ExTechOpGood morning, everybody!07:57
NicoGood morning!07:57
ExTechOp(or good whatever your timezone is)07:57
*** karry_ is now known as karry07:57
karryGood morning!07:57
flypigGood morning!07:58
ThaodanGood Morning all :)07:59
flypigLet's see if this works then.08:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 202208:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Jan 20 08:00:40 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings. As an "NQT", please also go gentle on me today, try not to get too rowdy.08:01
flypigIt's my first time :)08:01
flypigIt's my first time :)#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
flypigAs you can tell.08:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
ApBi don't think i've seen a meeting get rowdy08:01
flypigLet's hope this isn't the first then!08:01
Nico#info Nico, community/dev who successfully pushed for a close button08:02
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:02
karry#info Lukáš Karas, community, developer08:02
jpetrell#info Joona Petrell, sailor at Jolla08:03
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:03
spiiroin#info Simo Piiroinen, sailor at Jolla08:03
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ Jolla08:03
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot08:03
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar, sailor @ Jolla08:04
flypigIt's nice to see everyone. Let me also take this opportunity to thank sledges for his superb and tireless chairing of the community meetings over the last two years. I hope you'll join me in sharing your appreciation. Thank you sledges!08:07
NicoHurray, sledges! <308:07
sledgestake it away, flypig! :))08:07
flypig#topic Open the source code of the entire system (10 minutes -- asked by ddobrev)08:07
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open the source code of the entire system (10 minutes -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"08:07
flypigFirst the question that was asked.08:08
flypig#info <ddobrev> Some parts of the system, such as the GUI (Silica) are still proprietary.08:08
flypig#info <ddobrev> This repels many users and contributors - some of the latter have explicitly stated this and the old Qt as the reasons they left Sailfish for.08:08
flypig#info <ddobrev> I'm not talking about the Android layer the opening of which while still useful it seems to me is legally impossible.08:08
flypig#info <ddobrev> I only mean the OS itself, and perhaps the built-in applications.08:08
flypigAnd here is the answer we prepared earlier, before we continue the discussion.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> Jolla is an advocate of open source. We benefit from it, we contribute to it and we have an open development model for our open source components (we invite PRs, we invite anyone to comment on our PRs).08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> We aim to fulfil both the letter and the spirit of the open source licences we work with. Internally, we often have discussions about open-sourcing components.08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> That's the context. However Jolla doesn't work in a vacuum. We have a business model which funds the development of Sailfish OS, and right now that business model relies on some proprietary components (I'll share a link on this below).08:08
flypig#info <Jolla> So the answer is that we have no short-term plans to release Silica as open source. In the longer term this could change.08:09
flypig#info <Jolla> I cannot emphasise enough that we open up components whenever we can.08:09
flypig#info <Jolla> For example, recent new components have been released as open source: WebView/MPL-2 and WebAuth/BSD. We also acknowledge the importance of open source to our community; we do not underestimate it.08:09
flypigA bit of a long answer, but hopefully clear.08:09
fridlmue#info fridlmue - community (little late, sorry)08:10
flypigI don't see ddobrev here, but maybe others have comments.08:10
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:10
ApBwell its a subject that has been discussed foa ages08:10
NicoI think it would be great to have a few of the more visible part open. Those are usually the most accessible (fixing call stuff is hard, fixing a button much easier) and they are often what people have the most opinions about. For example it is really awesome the browser is open, because I could just patch it to have a close button for the last few months and even upstream that :D08:11
NicoBut maybe they are already, I always have a hard time telling what is open and what is not08:11
NicoI understand, why some parts are closed, so no need to discuss that I guess, but having more stuff open is of course appreciated <308:12
dcalisteAs a side note on the topic, was published recently, while it was proprietary before. Not a big deal, because not very useful stand-alone, but looking at the git history (because it came with its full history), show some background about silica.08:12
ApBpersonally i don't mind closed stuff as long as they get improved and bugs are fixed.08:13
ApBmany of the close jolla apps need some love and care08:13
NicoThe mapplauncher-booster could probably use some docs or at least a description, what it is :308:13
flypig#info mapplauncerd-booster-silica was open sourced recently, with interesting silica history08:13
NicoEmail app would be great to have open :308:14
ThaodanNico: it is a booster for mapplaucherd specific to silica apps08:14
dcalisteI fully agree with Nico about the browser being open source and the work done by Jolla to "librify" xulrunner and gecko so one can freely play with QML text files and change the browser layout.08:14
ThaodanI think mapplauncherd needs more docs08:14
NicoThaodan: I see, ty! Someone should add that to the github description :308:14
ApBthe other issue how willing is jolla to accept modifications by the community. ie the brower design is a bit bad to put it mildly08:15
rinigusemail, accounts are also asking for being open. but it is clear that the current business model requires some components to be closed08:15
ApBand damien wrote some patches for it08:16
flypigApB, we just accepted a community PR to the browser yesterday, I believe.08:16
NicoApB: They merged one contribution at least after some discussion. It just takes a while :308:16
ThaodanPersonally I think it really depends on what a customer wants, if there's a customer want wants invest into foss apps that will change. The person that pays has the say.08:16
Nicoflypig: Yes, mine! <308:16
ApBdidn't notice that. appologies08:16
ThaodanThats not really specific to this case thou.08:16
flypigAh, nice, thanks Nico!08:16
dcalisteflypig, indeed, see
NicoThaodan: I did pay a few bucks at least :308:16
NicoHow much would I need to pay per app to have it open? ;p08:17
dcalisteThank you Nico for your devotion to push this patch forward by the way !08:17
flypig#info Nico's recent PR accepted to the browser.08:17
ExTechOpI remember how one of the most impressive parts of my first impression of Sailfish was that all the different communications channels (phone, text, email, chats,...) got integrated into the same UI.08:17
ExTechOpThis seems to have fallen somewhat onto the wayside as things have progressed, and eg. chat protocols don't have such OS support any longer.08:17
ExTechOpIs this a matter of people just not doing this, or are there some closed-source hurdles on the OS side?08:17
ApBThaodan: can you find a customer that will demand newer QT :P08:17
flypigJust a minute to go on this topic.08:17
Nicodcaliste: No worries, I was tired of having to reapply the patch anyway. Now I just need to reapply yours every time :308:18
lolekApB: I think never QT would be more problematic than just paying customer08:18
flypigTime to move on I'm afraid. Let's continue the discussion in General later!08:18
ThaodanApB: I think new customers are always nicer so please do ;)08:18
flypig#topic lowmemory killer and memory state reporting (10 minutes -- asked by Karry)08:18
*** sailbot changes topic to "lowmemory killer and memory state reporting (10 minutes -- asked by Karry) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"08:18
flypigAgain, here's some more info about the topic.08:19
flypig#info <Karry> Sailfish OS has mechanism for notifying applications when system has not enough memory (by mce daemon, via D-Bus api).08:19
flypig#info <Karry> Together with lowmemory killer (kernel module) that kills applications when memory is under pressure, it maintain free memory reserve.08:19
flypig#info <Karry> It is good idea. But it is not working properly on Sony mobiles without memnotify api.08:19
flypig#info <Karry> Mce is counting free memory wrongly with cgroup api. And kernel lowmemory killer has multiple downsides. See:08:19
flypig#info <Karry> and my blog post:08:19
flypig#info <Karry> So my question is, what are Jolla's plan in this area? Specifically:08:19
flypig#info <Karry> - do Jolla want to use lowmemory killer in kernel in future, or migrate to user-space daemon, similar as Android does?08:19
ApBThaodan: if i start an automotive company i'll be more than pleases to get jolla to help with the SW in the car. its just that i am missing a few billions :P08:19
flypig#info <Karry> - do you agree with my conclusion that mce computes memory incorrectly? :-) what api to use, when memnotify08:19
flypig#info <Karry>   is not available? Cgroup don't provides enough details. I can imagine just parsing `/proc/meminfo`...08:19
flypigAnd the answer we prepared in advance.08:19
flypig#info <Jolla> We read your blog post on the topic with interest back in July and we're grateful for your work on this.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> Your post did trigger us to look in to this in more detail, but work on this is still ongoing and we have made changes as a result. The latest situation is that it is still unclear if there is actually an issue on X10II after all of the current PRs are taken into use.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> So in short, we are studying the issue, but it's too early to say anything about what we eventually end up doing.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> To try to answer your ancillary questions directly:08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> 1. Since there might not be an android low memory killer in future kernels as an oom-killer, we are looking in to the latter. For example systemd-oomd and Androd lmkd are options for userspace oom killers, but we're also considering others.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> 2. We agree with your conclusions, yes, but haven't yet come to a conclusion about what API is going to work best.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> To add some context the lowmemory killer is a kernel module from Android that is an implementation of an oom-killer that was maintained by Google but replaced with the userspace oom-killer lmkd. We'll provide some links at the end.08:20
flypig#info <Jolla> We are actively working on it and we'd welcome more discussion on the topic.08:20
NicoThe answers this time are lengthy, I like it :D08:21
flypigThat's good Nico, it just takes a while to get through :)08:21
flypigThat's the answer. karry feel free to elaborate on your original point.08:21
karryThanks for the answers!08:22
karryGreat to hear that you are evaluating it. Is the discussion public somewhere? Or it was internal?08:23
flypigI think the answer is talking about internal discussion, but it can be discussed more on the forum, and here of course.08:24
karryI will look to systemd-oomd, I am not aware of that... The key from my point is to use the same metrics in mce (memory reporting) and low-memory-killer...08:24
ThaodanLow-memory-killer is an Android thing we just reused that.08:25
spiiroinkarry: same metric would be nice, but basically memory pressure metric just needs to be good enough that sailfish userspace memory hoggers have a chance to flush out stuff before oom killer gets triggered08:26
ThaodanIMHO the whole terminology is confusing since the kernel still has an oom-killer.08:26
karryThaodan: I understand it. It is good to have such mechanism even on Sailfish. The basic idea is simple.08:27
ThaodanI'd say PSI is quite good for that given that Android and systemd both use it.08:27
ApBisn;t systemd-oomd in a version much newer than what is used in the phone?08:28
NicoIs there a way for apps to get notified, when memory is low, so that they can drop caches?08:28
ApBi think it was in 247 and the phone is on 23808:28
ThaodanApB: Yes that's true but I think that's better than developing something new.08:28
flypigA couple of minutes to go on this.08:29
ApBan undate to systemd i believe will be more than welcome08:29
spiiroinNico: there is, but the problem is that like karry says measuring/tracking status via cgroups has issues08:29
karryNico, there is "memory leve" api:
NicoI see, thanks!08:30
NicoSounds like something neat to play around with, if it becomes reliable enough at some point :308:31
karryit was working fine with memnotify on Jolla 1 and Jolla C, but this is not upstream kernel api08:31
flypigOkay, time is up I'm afraid. Do you need more time karry?08:31
ThaodanHere are Fedoras docs on moving to Systemd-oomd those also can help to explain the situation08:31
karryno... the topic is complex. There is not enough time on the meeting...08:32
flypigYes, sorry, it is complex. I hope you can continue in the forum, or post-meeting IRC.08:32
flypigLet's move on.08:32
flypig#topic better phone lock (10mins -- asked by lolek)08:32
*** sailbot changes topic to "better phone lock (10mins -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"08:32
flypig#info <lolek> We finally get encryption even tho it's bad right now but there has been information that it will be improved which is great!08:32
flypig#info <lolek> So I'd like to get back to the old idea of the picture password, more about this can be read here:08:32
flypig#info <lolek> A special warning, please do not confuse this with Android picture password which is very very weak, it's totally different thing.08:33
flypigAnd our prepared answer.08:33
flypig#info <Jolla> This is an interesting idea, and we're always looking for ways to improve Sailfish OS security and authentication.08:33
flypig#info <Jolla> This particular approach has been patented by Blackberry, which would complicate it's use in Sailfish OS.08:33
flypig#info <Jolla> Most phones nowadays come with fingerprint support, which (when it works reliably enough) can speed up unlocking of the device a lot already.08:33
flypig#info <Jolla> There are also many other approaches and there's been a lot of work done on evaluating authentication. Here are some links on the topic.08:34
flypig#info <Jolla> As well as the factors mentioned in these, another important consideration is that any alternative must fit with the existing authentication components and UI.08:34
flypig#info <Jolla> So please do share your ideas, we'd love to hear them, but be aware that making any change like this requires a great deal of care. One good step forward would be to provide a better mechanism in the OS for installing additional authentication methods and letting users choose what they prefer.08:34
flypiglolek, please feel free to expand on your question.08:34
flypigMaybe lolek isn't around right now. Any other comments?08:35
lolekYeah this is what I was afraid of course that they did patent it, so maybe there would be an option to expose an api so someone could make their own unlocking screen/method. Right now I found some old app that adds android picture password but it just "press numbers in the background"08:35
lolekso your idea with providing the mechanism so someone could actually handcraft it is imho fine enough. Also please keep in mind that fringerprint unlock is generally considered as unsafe. You can even see this info on fresh android instalation.08:36
ExTechOp(I've found that I'm getting old enough that when I do heavy work with my hands my fingerprints go missing, so I can't use them to unlock the phone)08:37
NicoExTechOp: Don't worry, Sailfish forgets about the fingerprints sometimes too :308:37
lolekExTechOp: that's obvious and perfectly normal, yet right now SFOS doesn't have any safe and strong unlocking mechanism, pin/fingerprint are not.08:37
flypiglolek, so your main concern is security?08:38
NicoProbably ties in with the next question :308:38
Apbalphanumeric -that is coming- will be good enough i think08:38
ExTechOp(I know it's a matter of worn fingertips, since after a couple of days of just office work they start working again)08:38
ApbExTechOp: wear gloves to protect them maybe?08:39
lolekflypig: long story short - yes. Since our mobile devices have access to our mail accounts and so on, it's important to be able to sleep well having in mind no one can spot how to unlock your phone. Also maybe that's a bit funny but a real world scenario. With fingerprint, your kid can take your phone and unlock it with your finger while you sleep to access your bank account to buy some game.08:39
lolekflypig: and with the pin code it's the same, the kid can spot it08:40
flypigThanks for clarifying and for the examples; I was curious.08:40
lolekflypig: I'm not saying this is important as it's just matter of rising the kid but it's just to show the general problem08:40
flypigUnderstood. Phones are very personal devices, and different auth mechanisms have different pros and cons, for sure.08:41
lolekflypig: and imho providing some api/authentication mechanism that can be used by developer to write an app for this would probably help a lot08:41
lolekflypig: but I also do understand that for this we still need to wait first for the new implementation of encryption. I think someone from Jolla already mentioned that on the forum when I gave link to rinigus solution08:42
flypigIt's convenient that we have this topic coming up :)08:42
flypigWe have a couple more mins on this topic first though.08:43
lolekwell from my point of view, ifJolla is willing/planning and will provide auth mechanism to allow crating apps that will unlock the phone i.e. replace the built in solutions, I think the only question is when we can see it say that, this year, or next year or even longer?08:44
flypigI don't think there's any timeline to provide right now, I'm afraid.08:44
ThaodanFor my pov the issue is the UI side, from the backend side there's pam which can be extended.08:44
ThaodanAnd of course planing everything.08:44
flypigTime is up. Since the next topic is related, I suggest we move directly on.08:45
flypig#topic Use of FOSS storage encryption solution as a base for official storage encryption on SFOS (15 min -- asked by rinigus)08:45
*** sailbot changes topic to "Use of FOSS storage encryption solution as a base for official storage encryption on SFOS (15 min -- asked by rinigus) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"08:45
flypigThis is the final topic for the meeting today. Some more detail.08:45
lolekflypig: ok let's do this... consider this topic has been handled and I'll remind it in the next few months if this has been on the agenda - i.e. there are some estimations when we can see this.08:45
flypigThanks lolek!08:45
flypig#info <rinigus> There is an open source storage encryption solution that has been enrolled on some unofficial ports.08:45
flypig#info <rinigus> It has support for plain LUKS alphanumeric passwords, passwords backed up by Android HW security solutions, integration with SFOS Settings, to name the few.08:46
flypig#info <rinigus> The license has been selected to allow such integration (GPLv2).08:46
flypig#info <rinigus> So, I wonder whether Jolla would consider joining forces and develop its future alphanumeric solution using our code for it as a base.08:46
flypigAnd this is the answer we prepared.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> Sailfish Device Encryption has been in use since Sailfish 3, integrated to our Settings, Startup Wizard flow, multi-user flows, minui-based unlock UI shown in the boot sequence, etc.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> Replacing it now partially or fully with another solution (which lacks these integrations) would not be a small undertaking.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> In comparison the alphanumeric support is smaller, much more incremental addition that we have already developed (unfortunately in parallel to the community work), and are now finishing up.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> The community implementation uses hardware-assisted encryption using the Android Keymaster API, which is a nice improvement over the original solution, but unfortunately seems to only use non-authenticated keys.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> Further getting the Keymaster API is often complicated due to the varying support and closed nature of vendor TEE implementations.08:46
flypig#info <Jolla> We do follow these activities with a lot of interest, e.g. if there are different ways to extend the usage of TEE further in the OS as improving the security is a very important goal for us.08:47
flypigDo we have rinigus here?08:47
flypigGreat. Please do feel free to expand, etc.08:47
riniguswell, I would say community version has all the same integrations (settings, wizard is separate as you have it closed source)08:48
rinigusminui is not used for simple reason - you need android layer booted up to use hw integration08:48
rinigusso, you can get already full silica stack for UI08:49
rinigusI don't understand what you mean by "unfortunately seems to only use non-authenticated keys"08:49
flypigjpetrell, is that something you could expand on?08:50
rinigusalso, how is encryption related to multi-user flows? there is a settings module that should work for all users. in addition, it actually allows each user to have their own LUKS password08:51
jpetrellafaik you need to use GateKeeper with KeyMaster to use authenticated keys08:51
jpetrellyou can bootup to silica UI for unlocking encryption, but that is slower08:52
rinigusjpetrell: the used key mechanism as done in community edition would work even if the phone is cracked in root access mode. such as if someone boots into recovery. as LUKS key is available via signing by RSA (same mechanism as used by Android btw) and that is done in rate limited manner, it is not relying on any android extra protection to keep you safe08:53
rinigusnot sure I replied to your gatekeeper concern08:53
rinigushopefully I did08:53
rinigusas for use of silica for unlocking being slower - well, how many times do you boot in practice? this allows you to have proper security (due to TEE involvement), something that you cannot do early in the boot08:54
NicoDon't you need to fully boot the OS in the end anyway?08:55
jpetrellyeah it is definitely not _the reason_, but one concern08:55
jpetrellit = performance08:55
riniguswhat I would argue is that just having alphanumeric pwd is insufficient and you need some hw backing anyway08:55
rinigusjpetrell: note that UI can be redone in minui, I just didn't see a reason for it08:56
jpetrellI've understood that the protection you get from TEE can be compromised if others can get access to the key, which is a risk with non-authenticated keys08:56
ThaodanSince bootloader are mostly unlocked keymaster is affected or is it?08:56
rinigusunless you break into TEE, that signing key sits there and allows you to sign once in 3 or 5 seconds. that key is not really available outside device for cracking, if it is what you mean08:57
flypigJust for info, we have another 5 mins on this topic.08:58
rinigusso, if you are limited to one try in 3 seconds, on the phone only, your alphanumeric pwd becomes way stronger08:58
rinigusjpetrell: what I have seen from Android APIs was that key protection assumes that root is protected. which we don't have in recovery08:58
rinigushence the solution was to rely on something that can withstand root08:59
rinigusany other concerns preventing the switch?09:00
flypigCould you elaborate on how the signing is turned into the LUKS key?09:00
lolekwell I'm voting for what rinigus done if I may add cause only adding alphanumerics to current solution is improvement for sure but imho still not enough09:00
rinigusas far as I understand, you prefer to continue using closed source implementation09:01
flypig(or maybe you have a good link on the topic)09:01
jpetrellyou said community version has all the same integrations, and then listed settings, wizard, boot flow not being integrated, which was kind of the main points09:01
flypigOne more minute on this topic. Time to wrap up I'm afraid.09:02
ThaodanHm it does have those09:02
rinigusflypig: your password that you enter is salted by argon first. result is signed by RSA and that is used for LUKS09:02
Thaodanonly wizard is separate09:02
Thaodansince its closed source09:02
flypigPerfect, thank you rinigus.09:02
rinigussettings is there; wizard had to be separate as yours is closed source; boot flow is integrated09:03
flypigOkay, let's move on to general discussion. You're welcome to continue with this topic there of course.09:03
flypig#topic General discussion (20 min)09:03
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"09:03
rinigusbonus, in addition to hw keys support, is ability to have encryption for ports that have /home together with /. this is via loopback device that is encrypted and used to provide /home for such ports09:04
rinigusin addition, you can switch off encryption if you wish09:04
rinigusjpetrell: reply above09:04
jpetrellI look at the two implementations and no migrating to community version is not trivial. and we have alphanumeric encryption done in parallel already so it would be hard to justify the switch09:05
Apb(unrelated to the encryption) sfos as a distro feels more cluttered and complex than that of my normal pc. granted a phone is different but is it only me that feels that or its because things have pilled up and dragged along since its begining09:05
Nicojpetrell: But the community version has a lot more features, is open source and works on ports!09:06
flypigApb, could you elaborate on what you mean by "cluttered"? The UI, the package structure, the filesystem?09:06
jpetrellNico: it has other features, not much more features. open source and ports are sure nice :)09:07
riniguslet me ask in relation to encryption - do you now unbind /home LUKS key from PIN?09:08
rinigusin future?09:08
ThaodanI think community encryption has more features regarding security like locking / and the salting and signing of the password09:08
Apbflypig:  the filesytem. it seems like we have a million different conf files compared to my pc09:08
flypigThanks for the clarification.09:09
rinigusas for transition from closed source to community implementation: it is all packaged and in use already. I can tell you which package to replace in your package list :)09:09
ThaodanApb: Its very similar some packages have workarounds for sandboxing or use older style of config files (like shipping default config fikles into /etc).09:09
ExTechOpI've been thinking about the hardware officially supported for Sailfish by Jolla. Could there be devised a process (likely involving money) where a community port for some device could be transformed into a part of the "core" Jolla-supported devices?09:10
ApbThaodan: to me it feels kind of different TBH. even the whole multi user thing feels different to what i do on a normal pc. (that might be related to the gui thouhg)09:11
ThaodanI'd say switching between community encryption is quite easy for ports. I didn't replaced an existing install but using it in a port is easy. I use official encryption and another one that works on kumano ports (voidanix) switch to community encryption in one commit.09:11
NicoExTechOp, I feel like having a way to get jolla apps on it is more important09:11
NicoLike Android support :309:11
ThaodanApb: That's mostly ui stuff which is different, the rest is quite similar.09:11
NicoAlthough Jolla adopting popular ports could be interesting09:11
ExTechOpNico Well, yes, this is kinda what I was thinking of when I said "Jolla-supported"09:11
rinigusregarding more features: well, it is done till the last step taking into account HW integration. also knowing that you can examine security related code in open is an important aspect. something that your company customers can, but not the end users of them09:11
NicoExTechOp: Afaik there were some plans for that, but they probably happen in Jolla time09:12
Apbie. i create users with systemd-homed but writing a gui around that should be easy probably09:12
Apb(assuming systemd was new enough)09:12
rinigusjpetrell:  to my understanding, Jolla's alphanumeric will be just that without HW backed keys09:12
jpetrellas said in the intro we are looking at utilizing TEE more09:13
ExTechOpNico What I kinda was thinking of was the Fairphone409:14
NicoExTechOp: The FPs are certainly far too undersupported :309:15
ExTechOpAnd now for something completely different: are there any dates yet for the Xperia 10 III support (I think SFOS 4.4)?09:16
Apbfairphones (from a hw pov) don't compliment sfos09:16
Apbbut nothing does sadly09:16
ExTechOpEr, what does "don't compliment" mean?09:16
NicoExTechOp: I feel like Jolla hates giving dates, but it was mentioned early 2022 in the community news, afaik09:17
Apbsie wise09:17
flypigExTechOp, I don't think we have *new* info to share on 10 III release dates. Some broad times were already mentioned elsewhere.09:17
Apband specs but i can live with tht09:17
sledgesExTechOp: you can build it yourself already :)
sledges(PR will be merged RSN )09:18
ExTechOpsledges There is a reason why I'm "community" and not "developer", I have too many things going on as it is :-/09:18
NicoAlso, now that the first browser patches have been merged, Jolla should take a look at the other ones :309:18
riniguswell, in the end, it is Jolla's choice regarding encryption implementation. before I started working on it, everyone were tight-lipped and did not reply on official forum regarding any alphanumeric plans. so, I managed to implement and roll it out and only after that some noises from Jolla camp arrived that you have it in works. fortunately, implementation is quite complete and I can use it as long as I wish despite official SFOS09:18
NicoThe ones from dcaliste look great!09:18
flypigNico, we will!09:18
sledgesExTechOp: you as in plural, also one doesn't need to be developer to build this one (that's why porters community is that big:)09:18
Nicoflypig: FASTERRRRR! <309:19
ThaodanAlso its helpful to look into the upstream bugtracker for issues.
sledgesmost of the relevant bugs linked in the PR09:19
Nico"need to reflash every 7 boots" o:09:19
sledgesthat has a fix already09:20
flypigNico, I know, it's taken a while. I'm afraid that is the nature of the process as you know. But we will try, and thanks for the prod :)09:20
sledgesNico: and, reflash only boot partition btw09:20
flypigWe have 5 more mins of general discussion.09:20
Nicoflypig: No worries, I've got time. I'm mostly just joking around at this point. I am still super hyped my patch got merged after all09:20
flypigNico, it's good on many levels :)09:21
dcalisteflypig: I think the PR on long press to close is less controversial than the pull down menu to add a new tab ;)09:21
Nicosledges: That sounds fun :D09:21
fridlmueHow is the VoLTE/VoNR proceeding? Is Jolla happy with the progress? ;-P09:21
Apbwhat rinigus said about the info on the encryption is the only sad part. its bad to have people working on the same thing in parallel09:21
NicoHaving a way to trigger pulleys on long phones would be great .-.09:22
NicoOr in long lists09:22
sledgesNico: like i said, fix was found09:22
flypigdcaliste, yes, I agree :) They're nice changes, but all design changes require careful consideration... of course!09:22
sledges08:17 < ExTechOp> This seems to have fallen somewhat onto the wayside as things have progressed, and eg. chat protocols don't have such OS support any longer.09:22
sledgesthere was a community effort, search web for "08:17 < ExTechOp> This seems to have fallen somewhat onto the wayside as things have progressed, and eg. chat protocols don't have such OS support any longer.09:23
sledges*" kaffeine telepathy"09:23
sledgesin hopes that it could be picked up again by someone09:23
flypigJust 2 more mines on this now.09:23
dcalisteflypig, sure, there is no hurry. While looking a bit less consistent the current behaviour is in my opinion quite alright already anyway..09:24
Nicomines? o.o09:24
ExTechOpYet another different question: has anyone built a camera app for the multi-camera hardware like Xperia 10 devices to trigger cameras simultaneously, so as to produce pictures at multiple zoom levels?09:24
Thaodansledges ExTechOp: Kaffeine  did spend some time into pushing those but he could not do it alone.09:24
flypigdcaliste, I appreciate you saying so, and it's also good to have your changes. It certainly generates discussion.09:25
sledgesExTechOp: from community i bet it's piggz who could implement in this advanced camera app09:25
ThaodanThere was also work into using a newer connection manager for tel:// calls that is already used by ubports.09:25
flypigWe're wrapping up now I'm afraid. Final words?09:25
flypigAnd does anyone want any conclusions logged to the minutes?09:26
Apbwill something break bad in the OS if i modify the defaultuser name to something else?09:26
ThaodanIn general it requires more manpower.09:26
flypigAlright, time to wrap up. Thanks for all the excellent discussion today.09:27
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:27
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 20th January 2022)"09:27
NicoFinal words for flypig: Thank you and everyone else for the meeting. It was a very enjoyable experience!09:27
flypigNico, great, thank you!09:27
flypigProposing Thursday 3rd February at 08:00am UTC09:27
flypigAny objections?09:27
Apbflypig: see. we were cool. we didn't start a fight or something :P09:27
ThaodanHit us up in #sailfishos or #sailfishos-porters if you want to contribute09:27
ThaodanPRs always welcome09:27
flypigApb, thank you for the orderly behaviour :) Everyone here gets gold stars!09:28
ExTechOp2022-02-03T08:00Z works for me!09:28
NicoThaodan, link me the email app repo please for my PRs ;p09:28
flypigAlright, we're going for the 3rd then.09:28
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd February 2022 at 08:00am UTC:  2022-02-03T0800Z09:28
flypigThat's it. Have a good fortnight everyone!09:29
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Jan 20 09:29:02 2022 UTC.09:29
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 20th January 2022 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:29
ExTechOpThanks everyone!09:29
NicoThanks everyone! <309:29
sledgescheers me deers09:29
jpetrellCheers :)09:29
dcalisteThank you everyone for interesting discussions and flypig for chairing.09:29
NicoOh no, I almost topped the charts with my offtopic comments, only flypig had more lines >.<09:30
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd February 2022 at 08:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:31
flypigNico, keep it up, discussion is good :)09:33

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