Thursday, 2020-08-27

rinigusdo we have some macro defined on SFOS OBS (or even better on all SFOS SDKs)  that can be used to distinguish in SPEC that the build is for SFOS? so I could use the same SPEC for SFOS and suse/fedora?07:49
T42<adampigg> What u trying to do rinigus?08:33
rinigus@adampigg: learning how to use opensuse obs. so, as a first step, packaging maps apps for distros via obs08:34
T42<adampigg> K08:35
rinigusnot sure it is all correct, but current test at
rinigusnotice differences in _service08:35
T42<adampigg> How easy is it to add the sfos targets as additional distros?08:36
rinigus@adampigg: to suse obs? they don't want anything closed source08:39
T42<adampigg> I wondered if you had rolled your own instance08:40
rinigus@adampigg: no, I didn't :)08:40
rinigusbeing lazy over here. we will be told how bad it is and then can take it from there08:41
T42<adampigg> Yep..friday soon!08:41
T42<adampigg> Have a cheery holiday snap08:42
rinigusas for using suse obs, it could be good to push apps for other distros. and probably for nemomobile08:42
T42<adampigg> (Photo, 2560x1440)
rinigus@adampigg: and all is great again!08:42
T42<neochapay> yea...i searching hosting for nemo obs08:43
rinigus@neochapay: let's see, suse obs could be the one for nemo. I will test it on maps stack, report back, and then will look on nemo packages08:46
T42<edp_17> @adampigg: is that the new boat for sfos or how you feel about the current? 😄08:49
r0kk3rzsuse obs wouldnt work10:15
r0kk3rzor at least wouldnt use sb2, which might cause problems10:15
rinigusr0kk3rz: that is for sfos or nemo?10:51
rinigusthey do have arm 32/64 bits available10:51
atlochowskirinigus: adampigg:
rinigusr0kk3rz: very well said on obs thread, thanks!11:52
T42白昊惠 %lastname% was added by: 白昊惠 %lastname%11:56
r0kk3rzrinigus: yeah no need for long tirades12:10
T42<adampigg> Rinigis, r0kk3rz up to date... Not terribly informitive as to what solutions are proposed12:10
r0kk3rzyeah i dont think there is any12:11
r0kk3rzthey'll figure something for ports maybe, but not anything else12:11
T42<adampigg> He says obs is no longer needed for porting with new hadk...but where are we to host ota updates etc12:12
T42<adampigg> The 'legal risk' argument sounds a bit wishy washy, like thet havnt actually identified anything conclusive12:22
T42<edp_17> From how I read in the latest and previous announcements, it is clear to me that Jolla feels big enough now to spit on the community. It doesn't matter what we say or do. We can raise our voice, it doesn't matter anymore because the decision has been made. It's clear. Leave it or obey it but I don't think this can (will) be changed.12:32
T42<edp_17> I was happy when found SFOS and wanted to port it to all of my devices but now, ... I am sad.12:32
T42<adampigg> Im not ready to rage quit just yet, like rinigus i want to see solutions first, ive invested many years in porting, but seems jolla management arnt listening to their own devs, or properly discussing with community12:39
rinigus@adampigg: not informative in terms of solutions, indeed. and, as r0kk3rz suggested, probably no good solution expected12:40
rinigusdon't think we have to rage quit, but instead work on exit strategy12:40
rinigusr0kk3rz: with suse obs, do you think it is a problem with compiling nemo on top of some suse arm distro? due to absence of sb2?12:41
malhas OBS been recently use much for other things than adaptation builds/hosting? apps are in store or openrepos12:57
vknechtrinigus: there's this nemo-on-postmarketOS, so I'd guess it's doable on Suse too...
T42<adampigg> I think.we.need the sentiments of this channel reflected on the thread13:05
T42<adampigg> Mal, i dont think apps are the issue, there is the sdk for that with hosting on store / openrepos. ....13:06
T42<adampigg> Ports are the issue, and tbe ease obs  gives us with updating packages, auto building and hosting13:07
malbtw, I already have the self-hosted repos in test use on a device13:08
malstill on my own server13:08
T42<NotKit> rinigus: I experimented with suse OBS a bit on the weekends and at least it can build libhybris just fine for arm/arm64 with small changes, so I think missing sb2 is not an issue13:13
rinigusmal: maps apps (pure maps and osm scout server) are on a project with 17 packages. once in a while I update one or another dependency. those are also recompiled on sfos update13:14
rinigusflatpak is less - 713:15
rinigusso, larger apps do require some automatic building13:15
malah, that is indeed a bit annoying locally unless scripted13:16
rinigus@NotKit: interesting. I will have to figure out how to feed it best to their obs (_service) and then would look into nemo. do you have some repo with hybris over there?13:17
malbut with a bit of script magic that is not so difficult to do, like making a script with a simple dependency tree and if you trigger it with some package then it will build that and all packages which depend on it13:18
malI do understand making such script is annoying compared to OBS13:19
rinigusmal: add to that ability to support multiple sfos releases - as I did before but probably not anymore after gcc update - and there was my use of obs13:19
T42<NotKit> @rinigus [@NotKit: interesting. I will have to figure ou …],
rinigus@adampigg: I will probably write something tonight in the thread, will have to think it through. please feel free to voice your opinion13:22
rinigusmal: yes, annoying and time consuming. instead of working on something else you are taken away the means that you used and suddenly have to start looking / creating replacements.13:24
rinigusin principle, we can probably setup local obs instances to do it old(er) way. assuming that some simple could be done that sets it up on my pc, for example13:25
rinigusand we have reasonable ram consumption. don't know if it is possible13:25
rinigusmal: but the issue with hosting is there as well. so, somehow we have to figure out how to replace whole chain code->compile->host13:26
malyeah, I think we should do some scripts for some things13:26
malin general we should have more scripts commonly done things13:28
rinigustaking into account recent developments, I will be volunteering much for doing it :( . which is a nasty divide now that I was not experiencing before. and not constructive either, as I would prefer to focus on things that cannot be pulled out by jolla management/lawyer13:29
rinigus@NotKit: nice, will look into it. could see that you repacked it and worked through tar in service. I tried to go directly in which required different %setup13:32
T42<adampigg> Mal do u think porters will now be expected to self host?13:41
mal@adampigg best would be to have some common hosting method for all ports13:46
malsomething like the suggested openrepos or something like that13:47
Nico[m]Does anyone know, how much effort it would be to host something like that? Be it obs or some alternative?13:47
malonly thing needed is some server with public address and a folder where you can upload the local repo13:48
malif you mean hosting adaptation13:48
Nico[m]Well, I do have that. But I guess it would be more involved to provide that for others and something based on openrepos may make more sense then?13:49
T42<kabouik> mal: I'm not much of a developer but I did use OBS whenever I could write a proper .spec file for building packages and keeping them up to date easily, or rebuild with new deps; it was a much better workflow than building on device or on SDK for me.14:07
rinigusI don't know whether openrepos has any api for uploads, never seen any. if we split hosting and building, some api would be needed (minio, scp)14:11
T42<vkn_n> OBS takes about ~166Gb. I downloaded the OBS backup recently.14:15
T42<adampigg> The fact we're having this discussion shows it hasnt been thought about14:24
mal@adampigg which part?14:26
T42<adampigg> Hosting14:26
malchanging to selfhosting repo was quite simple when I tried it14:27
T42<adampigg> On an individual basis maybe, but not as a common platform for all ports as slick as obs14:29
DylanVanAsscherinigus (IRC): adampigg: I get that they want to move forward and improve the development setup but there wouldn't be so much problems if they just announced it upfront like: 'We're considering X, Y, Z which impacts the community by A, B, C for the following reasons: ... . How do you think as a community to move forward'. This would make clear that Jolla understands the consequences and so on. I14:29
DylanVanAsschehope they learn a bit out of this in terms of communication. The current follow up post just reads like damage control IMHO.14:29
T42<vkn_n> Do we know exactly when OBS will be closed?14:31
T42<adampigg> Nope14:31
T42<adampigg> Probs friday :D14:32
T42<vkn_n> ((14:32
T42<vkn_n> I can allocate hard disk space on my personal server to transfer information. If you need to - write. We need to decide something...14:33
T42<adampigg> Atleast on it sounds like it wont go imediately14:34
malit's not going away anytime soon, there will be plenty of time for adaptations to adapt14:34
malbecause adaptations need to have at least one release before it goes down to make transition simple14:34
T42<adampigg> Maybe jolla should just provide server space, at, with some api to alllow uploads from a ci build14:37
T42<adampigg> Mal, what about.common and native-common repos?14:40
malthat needs some thinking14:44
mal@adampigg local build does build all dependencies by default14:44
T42<adampigg> Mal, obs also has the convenience of just goibg.down each package and triggering an update to get the latest updates, and them being available instantly14:48
pketoI think providing server space would also have the legal issues regarding the content that is uploaded there14:56
pketoI don't know the details about the legal issues, so don't ask :)14:57
rinigusmal: I am not even sure whether local build would work for my current setup, for example. as I can push all bits to obs and work from there. as a result, we don't need to maintain many local copies of the same / similar thing14:59
riniguspketo: I would expect hosting is the part that has legal implications15:00
malgood example of hosting legal issues for ports would be vendor blobs15:02
rinigusDylanVanAssche: I would not count that those responsible for decisions and communication would learn much from it, unfortunately15:03
rinigusmal: exactly that's why sony hosts them separately. do we have anyone pushing blobs to obs?15:03
DylanVanAsscherinigus (IRC): :(15:04
rinigusas piggz mentioned before, it is a question of pasting what can be done and cannot be done publicly. aka education15:04
rinigusto my knowledge, blobs were always no-no15:05
T42<adampigg> @rinigus [as piggz mentioned before, it is a question of …], Yes, put clear guidelines on the front page, and notify offenders if found....but...has any actually been found?15:19
T42<adampigg> Pketo^^ are there any.actual.cases of infringing packages?15:20
pketoI don't know15:27
T42<adampigg> Can we call it obs-gate from now on? :D17:55
attahHow useful or worthless would it be to contribute a Xeon E3-1246v3 machine with 32GB ram to "the cause"?18:05
T42<adampigg> I think its too early to think about things loike that.18:11
T42<adampigg> Need to know the proposed solitions18:11
attahindeed, that will be interesting... although it did sound a bit like "it will be easier to run locally"18:12
T42<adampigg> Maybe we neeed to start drafting requirements on the post?18:25
T42<adampigg> I can conteibute tomorrow18:25
attahAs an outsider it is all bit vague exactly what capabilities are hardest to replace18:26
attahRepo hosting seemingly being one of the easier, and the most problematic to keep18:26
T42<adampigg> Adaptation package building, hosting, updating and auto-rebuilding when a dependancy changes18:27
T42<adampigg> Is most of it for ports18:27
T42<adampigg> There is other stuff for complex apps18:28
rinigus@adampigg: posted my reply, maybe should have waited. but it was not friday-type of reply either18:28
attahWhat's the key reason for not doing it locally, apart from not really being suitable for automation?18:28
rinigusdoing locally means you have to have each developer spending time on admin task as well18:29
rinigushaving setups diverging. as for automation, don't underestimate it for ports and larger apps18:30
rinigusnetwork cost could be significant, btw. for service you have to pay each mb going out18:30
attahto me the risk of setups diverging or not being equal enough is kinda orthogonal to a central service being able to work with a minimum of maintenance...18:32
attahbut i haven't tried, so...18:33
attahyeah, hosting is a pain18:33
rinigusattah: hosting is not a pain as such. it's a cost. unless you mean from legal pov18:34
attahboth legality and cost18:36
T42<adampigg> Porters shouldnt be expected to pay for hosting18:37
attahespecially porters *alone*18:38
attahthe wider community however might, i guess18:39
attahbut as per before, that's a hassle to coordinate18:40
T42<adampigg> But a single.collective,.imagine the pain in admin otherwise18:40
rinigusmaybe someone out of users should organize it then. but legality has to be ensured somehow18:41
rinigusas through review, for example18:41
attahyeah, clear responsibilities, admins and so on... decentralizing would be a whole other headache18:42
attahalthough basically darkwebbing the repos would fix the legality part xD18:43
rinigusor hosting somewhere with more relaxed view on it18:43
rinigusbut it is easier to keep all legal anyway18:44
attahbecause unless people engage in active abuse, there is little chance anybody will go after a firmware blob or two18:44
rinigusif we keep it blob free, there will be no issues either18:44
attahhopefully, but IP is a sticky mess18:45
rinigusthen host sony only. and pinephone and others who keep blobs on their sites18:46
vknechtor, change laws, so that individuals and community can't be bothered with business rules, especially when devices aren't supported anymore so why the f*ck should we be sued for distributing dead files ?22:34
vknechtit's we, the good people, who should have power and sue them for letting their security-bug-riddled devices rot and put consumers at risk :-P22:37

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