Tuesday, 2013-06-25

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nwokihi guys08:22
nwokii have a dev question for you08:22
nwokicould you give me a hint on how you launch/build sailfish os apps on the virtual machine both on linux and windows?08:23
nwokii'm doing something similar and i'm a bit stuck08:23
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nwokii'd appreciate some insight if possible08:23
Yanielwhat do you mean both on linux and windows?08:23
Yanieluse the qt creator from the sdk, it handles that for you08:24
nwokiyes, via qt creator08:24
nwokii'm makeing my own plugin08:24
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nalaginrut Could not launch a process for the machine 'MerSDK' (VERR_ACCESS_DENIED)08:25
nalaginrutanyone encounter such an exception?08:25
Sfiet_Konstantinnwoki: what's your problem ?08:29
Sfiet_Konstantinnalaginrut: reboot MerSDK ?08:29
nwokiSfiet_Konstantin: i'm gathering info on how to do this procedure "the right way"08:29
Sfiet_Konstantinnwoki: do what the right way ?08:30
Sfiet_Konstantinuse the buttons inside QtCreator08:30
nwokifor creating a plugin of mine to build on our sdk08:30
Sfiet_KonstantinI guess: upload via SSH to the MerSDK VM08:30
Sfiet_Konstantinbuild it here (like qmake make)08:30
Sfiet_Konstantinand then upload the build result to the simulator machine08:31
Sfiet_Konstantinyou will have to be careful on the deplouyment path08:31
Sfiet_Konstantinqt creator can parse pro files and guess deplouyment path08:31
nwokik, sounds like what i had in mind for the linux version08:32
nwokibut what about for building on windows?08:32
Jonnithere is no difference if you build on windows, mac or linux with creator08:34
Sfiet_KonstantinJonni: he wants to build with a script08:34
Sfiet_Konstantinor something like that08:34
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Sfiet_Konstantinwithout QtC08:34
nwokiSfiet_Konstantin: Jonni i'm making my own qt-creator-plugin08:34
Sfiet_Konstantinnwoki: more tricky, but you should have something like SSH for windows08:34
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nalaginrutSfiet_Konstantin:  I can't start MerSDK vm unless I'm root, is there any to start it with users group08:36
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nalaginrutSfiet_Konstantin:  is there any way to start MerSDK vm if I'm not root08:36
Sfiet_Konstantinnalaginrut: yes08:37
Sfiet_Konstantinjust start it08:37
nalaginrutSfiet_Konstantin:  but it throws VERR_ACCESS_DENIED08:37
nalaginrutI'm using vbox08:37
Yanielmaybe you need to be in the virtualbox group?08:37
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nalaginruthmm...seems I don't have virtualbox group08:40
stephgnalaginrut, which OS is the host? if it's linux did you log out and back into your X session after installing virtualbox?08:40
nalaginrutstephg:  I'm using openSUSE-12.2, and I'm under gnome after install virtualbox08:41
stephglog out and log back in, see if it works then08:41
nalaginrutand I rebooted my system08:41
stephgok not that then08:41
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stephg(group changes don't get picked in X)08:42
nalaginrutno one encountered the same problem of mine?08:42
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backjlackWill there be an iOS like emulator of SailfishOS?09:47
backjlacke.g.: you don't have to boot an entire VM to test the app09:47
Yaniel"an entire VM" is rather vague AFAIK09:51
backjlackOk, it'd be nice if it didn't need a full blown virtualbox VM to run or a qemu based VM like Android.09:51
Yanielit's not like the sailfish VM is particularly heavy09:51
backjlackThat's not the point, the point is that the development experience is subpar compared to iOS.09:52
Yanieland emulators tend to be 1) tedious to make & maintain 2) still working differently than the real thing09:52
backjlackAs much as I dislike iOS and how you develop for it, I've found that to be the most straightforward development experience I've had so far for mobile devices.09:53
Yanieldunno about the iOS emulator09:53
backjlackIt looks like all the frameworks have dummy x86 versions and you are actually compiling for the emulator when you build for the emulator.09:54
Yanielbut WP7 and symbian/maemo emulators weren't really any better than deploying to a real device09:55
backjlackInstead of having a real iOS system under the app, you have a fake system which exposes the same things as the real OS.09:55
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YanielWP emulator might be a VM though09:55
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backjlackWP has such a small market it wasn't even worth looking at.09:56
Yanielmaybe not but I have used it so it works as a reference for me09:56
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backjlackThat was just my opinion and what I've done. I know it makes sense for other folks to develop for it.09:57
Yanielsince the VM is x86 anyways it probably would be possible to make a decent emulator09:57
Yaniel(I don't consider wp worth the time either, but hey it's an experience)09:58
Nicd-iOS simulator also has the advantage that it only runs on OS X09:58
Yanielbut a VM does give you a lot much more flexibility wrt what you can do09:59
Nicd-it's not as easy to design a cross-platform simulator running as a regular application09:59
Nicd-that would work exactly the same on every system09:59
backjlackYes, you'd have to take care of the FS and a lot of other things.09:59
backjlackThough, it would certainly be worth the effort, imo.09:59
Yanielwhat's the problem with a VM vs an emulator anyways?10:00
Nicd-I don't know, I think that effort could be spent more wisely improving the OS/SDK or developing programs10:00
backjlackWhen I write something which uses Qt, it's very simple and cool. I have Qt Creator and Qt, I don't have to think about anything else.10:00
Yanielthe need for virtualization support?10:00
backjlackWhen I need to set up the Android SDK, it's a bit annoying - download this, add an emulator instance, run it, wait for it to start *as slowly as possible* OR run an x86 based Android VM which is outdated already.10:02
backjlackIt's outside of the environment. It's not completely integrated. It feels off.10:02
Yanielwell sailfish requires you to have virtualbox installed and the kernel module loaded and that's it10:02
Yanieland the VM startup times aren't bad either10:03
Yanielno big deal IMHO10:04
backjlackPerhaps it can be integrated in a better way.10:04
backjlacke.g.: I'm merely interacting with virtualbox, not with something sailfish specific.10:05
Nicd-why would there need to be something more specific?10:05
Yanielbetter than "all you'll ever have to see of virtualbox is the VM screen"?10:05
Nicd-only problem I can think of are the resources taken by the VMs but they're not so bad10:06
backjlackThis is why people continue to develop for iOS, imo.10:06
Nicd-because the simulator looks better?10:07
backjlackNo, it's because it's well integrated and has good performance.10:07
Yanielsorry if I misunderstand10:07
lbtFYI we are interested in issues with the SDK and dev experience - comparisons with other environments etc10:07
backjlackAndroid is far behind with its IDE and emulators. SailfishOS is already better than Android because it's using Qt Creator.10:07
lbtspecifics help of course :)10:08
Yanielbut all I seem to be able to read here is "VMs are inherently bad because android"10:08
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lbtYaniel: yes - I'd be interested in what's different between a VM and other system resource containers10:09
backjlacklbt: I'd like to build an Android app, I have Android devices to run it on. Let's see, what can I use for that? Eclipse + Android SDK + the qemu based emulators...that doesn't look too good.10:09
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backjlackOk, maybe I can set up a custom vbox VM with an x86 android image. Hmm, it looks like all I can get are these outdated androvm VMs.10:09
Yanielthat's an android-specific issue IMO10:09
backjlackThey don't even support everything, so it's semi-functional.10:09
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backjlackYaniel: I know, I was trying to make a point about making things convenient.10:10
Yanieltotally irrelevant to the VM vs emulator discussion10:10
lbtbackjlack: OK - so we need to be better than that10:10
Yanielcan you please tell me how it is not convenient10:10
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Yaniel"press a button in the IDE - you get a window with the OS running your app"10:10
lbtwe know of some minor usability issues right now - like you press and it launches and you have to press again .. but that's a bug for sure10:11
backjlackOnce the first phone is out and people actually try to build apps, I'm sure you'll get more or less the same kind of feedback I've provided.10:11
lbtbackjlack: which is?10:11
lbtseriously - I would like to make some notes on any issues you have10:12
lbteg right now the emulator is 'just a vm window'10:12
Yanielbackjlack: FYI he is really serious - he maintains the SDK10:12
Nicd-lbt is serious business10:13
lbtbut it uses RDP internally and I'm interested in skinning that to support better simulation10:13
backjlacklbt: An emulator like the iOS one would be nice to have and it'd make the experience much better. I've been using virtual machines since 2003 and there isn't much you can throw at me to confuse me, but others only know how to work with iOS tools.10:13
Yanielwhat is it about iOS tools that makes them so special then?10:13
lbtbackjlack: *nod* ... our goal is to hide the tech unless you want to get at it10:13
Yanielthat they can be accessed directly from the main IDE?10:13
Stskeepsthey run only on mac ;)10:13
Yanielthat hey have shiny icons for stuff?10:13
Nicd-what's the problem with the VM? you don't have to interact with the VM window10:14
backjlackYaniel: That would be one point, yes. The other is that they don't show you any innards of the emulator.10:14
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lbtbackjlack: we have some fans already - but lets see if we can drill down into your concerns. I need concrete things if I'm to change them10:15
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lbtbackjlack: showing you the innards - agree10:15
Yanielhave you actually tried the sdk yet?10:15
backjlackLast time I've tried the SDK, I was getting a standard virtualbox window with SailfishOS running in it. I didn't quite know what SailfishOS expected me to do in that VM window to shut it down and so on.10:15
Yaniel1) there are two VMs10:15
Yanielone for compiling, one for the "emulator"10:15
Yanielall you need to do is to have them running when you need them10:16
lbtbackjlack: yep - that's valid - we should explain them unless they are skinned to appear part of QtC10:16
Yanielpretty much like start the sdk vm, minimize it and forget about it10:16
lbtYaniel: we've had suggestions to hide the engine VM10:16
Yanielthat would be nice lbt10:16
lbtproblems are that on windows it pops up warnings - and if you start it minimised... you can't see them10:17
lbtlike ... grrr10:17
Yanieldo the warnings have some sort of urgency flag?10:17
lbthonestly don't recall10:18
lbtI thing we'll eventually start it headless with an option to allow a window for console10:18
backjlackCouldn't those warnings be retrieved and shown in another place if that's needed?10:18
lbtbackjlack: so if we made the vm windows visually integrate - would that address your issue?10:19
lbtbackjlack: possibly10:19
lbtbackjlack: also be aware that we're resource limited10:19
Yanieland the emulator vm is supposed to be controlled from qt creator10:19
Yanielre "I didn't quite know what sailfishos expected me to do"10:20
backjlacklbt: Yes, I've provided this feedback so that SailfishOS could have one thing to make the development experience much better than Android's and to attract iOS devs.10:20
lbtYaniel: they are controlled from there - but it's not obvious to non-vm users I think10:20
Yanieland not necessarily even for vm users10:20
lbtbackjlack: *nod* ... and it can be tough to stand up and say what's wrong :)10:21
YanielI like the fact that it still is a full blown vm because of the control virtualbox gives me over it10:21
Yanielbut maybe the virtualbox UI could be some advanced option?10:21
backjlackI've been a fan of Android's for a long time, but I've been badly annoyed by the fact that 1) I can't really build my own kernel for it to have better power saving - the sources are always old and no git tree for the kernel is given with tagged versions for releases 2) Updates are a game of politics - want the newest? buy the latest phone.10:21
lbtYaniel: and in future - when Sailfish runs on multiple devices - each will have its own VM10:22
lbteven today you can run a Nemo emulator with it10:22
lbtbackjlack: we definitely address those issues to some degree10:22
Yaniel(on a totally unrelated note, nice to see this discussion get productive)10:23
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backjlackI've customized my phone's kernel to run for up to 14 days on a full charge. That was a really difficult thing to do mostly because of how complicated it was to get the boot img on the phone.10:24
backjlackBuilding the kernel and making the code changes was the easy part.10:24
lbtbackjlack: hehe - you should hang out in #mer too then - much lower level platform/os development10:24
backjlacklbt: Thank you for the tip. I'll join now.10:24
lbtright - I need to go make updating work in some fashion for the next release10:25
Yanielyay, an updater10:26
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Yanielanyways so having a vm is no problem as long as it is well integrated?10:31
Yanielbackjlack: ^10:31
Yanielor rather, wether it is a vm or an emulator is meaningless10:31
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backjlackYaniel: It's ok if it's a properly integrated VM. That would make it OK to have an emulator later.10:44
backjlackThe point of having an emulator was about removing possible variables and about making it fast to start and run.10:45
Nicd-what variables? I would assume an emulator has more problems with that than a VM10:45
Nicd-since an emulator depends on the platform it's running on10:45
backjlackNicd-: The state of the VM and that of the OS running in it.10:46
backjlackEven with androvm and the android SDK, I've had problems with the two not communicating properly sometimes.10:46
backjlackI had to import a fresh copy of androvm for some reason.10:47
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Nicd-I think any effort would be better spent fixing any bugs with the VMs10:53
backjlackI was just saying the emulator can be added later - as in much later.10:54
Nicd-even then I would think there were better things to do since the problems are pretty minor (in my eyes)10:55
Nicd-a crossplatform emulator would *not* be an easy task10:55
backjlackIt really depends on what has to be implemented, imo.10:55
xavinuxHi people10:56
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xavinuxwill the Sailfish UX support Spanish language?15:05
Hartziis a language part of the user experience or why people are asking can UX handle this or that?15:11
Hartziusually everything is localized15:12
Hartziit's very weird if not15:12
Sfiet_KonstantinHartzi: I guess he wanted to ask: will the version of sailfish OS that the Jolla ships be translated to spanish15:12
HartziSfiet_Konstantin: yes i thought so but I wasn't sure15:13
veskuhxavinux, we are working on Spanish support. I do not know if it will be in the first set of languages or not.15:13
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xavinuxok, if help is neede, Spanish is my native languaje. I'll be glad to help if you nedeed15:16
Sfiet_Konstantinveskuh: did you (sailors at Jolla) thought about using stuff like transifex to allow collaborative translation ?15:17
Sfiet_Konstantinmaybe it is not reliable ? or too expensive for a company ?15:17
veskuhSfiet_Konstantin, yes, we have been thinking about similiar thing.15:18
Sfiet_Konstantincool :)15:18
veskuhWe did some infra work already and internally also utilize sailors own language skills. (We are international bunch). For public use, well let's see, its more complex thing.15:19
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Sfiet_Konstantinveskuh: yeah, of cause15:20
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