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| nwoki | hi guys | 08:22 |
|---|---|---|
| Stskeeps | lo | 08:22 |
| nwoki | i have a dev question for you | 08:22 |
| nwoki | could you give me a hint on how you launch/build sailfish os apps on the virtual machine both on linux and windows? | 08:23 |
| nwoki | i'm doing something similar and i'm a bit stuck | 08:23 |
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| nwoki | i'd appreciate some insight if possible | 08:23 |
| Yaniel | what do you mean both on linux and windows? | 08:23 |
| Yaniel | use the qt creator from the sdk, it handles that for you | 08:24 |
| nwoki | yes, via qt creator | 08:24 |
| nwoki | i'm makeing my own plugin | 08:24 |
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| nalaginrut | Could not launch a process for the machine 'MerSDK' (VERR_ACCESS_DENIED) | 08:25 |
| nalaginrut | anyone encounter such an exception? | 08:25 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | nwoki: what's your problem ? | 08:29 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | nalaginrut: reboot MerSDK ? | 08:29 |
| nwoki | Sfiet_Konstantin: i'm gathering info on how to do this procedure "the right way" | 08:29 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | nwoki: do what the right way ? | 08:30 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | use the buttons inside QtCreator | 08:30 |
| nwoki | for creating a plugin of mine to build on our sdk | 08:30 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | ah | 08:30 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | I guess: upload via SSH to the MerSDK VM | 08:30 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | build it here (like qmake make) | 08:30 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | and then upload the build result to the simulator machine | 08:31 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | you will have to be careful on the deplouyment path | 08:31 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | qt creator can parse pro files and guess deplouyment path | 08:31 |
| nwoki | k, sounds like what i had in mind for the linux version | 08:32 |
| nwoki | but what about for building on windows? | 08:32 |
| Jonni | there is no difference if you build on windows, mac or linux with creator | 08:34 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Jonni: he wants to build with a script | 08:34 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | or something like that | 08:34 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | without QtC | 08:34 |
| nwoki | Sfiet_Konstantin: Jonni i'm making my own qt-creator-plugin | 08:34 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | nwoki: more tricky, but you should have something like SSH for windows | 08:34 |
| ibins | \join #bird | 08:35 |
| Yaniel | openssh | 08:35 |
| nalaginrut | Sfiet_Konstantin: I can't start MerSDK vm unless I'm root, is there any to start it with users group | 08:36 |
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| nalaginrut | Sfiet_Konstantin: is there any way to start MerSDK vm if I'm not root | 08:36 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | nalaginrut: yes | 08:37 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | just start it | 08:37 |
| nalaginrut | Sfiet_Konstantin: but it throws VERR_ACCESS_DENIED | 08:37 |
| nalaginrut | I'm using vbox | 08:37 |
| Yaniel | maybe you need to be in the virtualbox group? | 08:37 |
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| nalaginrut | hmm...seems I don't have virtualbox group | 08:40 |
| stephg | nalaginrut, which OS is the host? if it's linux did you log out and back into your X session after installing virtualbox? | 08:40 |
| nalaginrut | stephg: I'm using openSUSE-12.2, and I'm under gnome after install virtualbox | 08:41 |
| stephg | log out and log back in, see if it works then | 08:41 |
| nalaginrut | and I rebooted my system | 08:41 |
| stephg | ah | 08:41 |
| stephg | ok not that then | 08:41 |
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| stephg | (group changes don't get picked in X) | 08:42 |
| nalaginrut | no one encountered the same problem of mine? | 08:42 |
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| backjlack | Will there be an iOS like emulator of SailfishOS? | 09:47 |
| backjlack | e.g.: you don't have to boot an entire VM to test the app | 09:47 |
| Yaniel | "an entire VM" is rather vague AFAIK | 09:51 |
| backjlack | Ok, it'd be nice if it didn't need a full blown virtualbox VM to run or a qemu based VM like Android. | 09:51 |
| Yaniel | it's not like the sailfish VM is particularly heavy | 09:51 |
| backjlack | That's not the point, the point is that the development experience is subpar compared to iOS. | 09:52 |
| Yaniel | and emulators tend to be 1) tedious to make & maintain 2) still working differently than the real thing | 09:52 |
| backjlack | As much as I dislike iOS and how you develop for it, I've found that to be the most straightforward development experience I've had so far for mobile devices. | 09:53 |
| Yaniel | dunno about the iOS emulator | 09:53 |
| backjlack | It looks like all the frameworks have dummy x86 versions and you are actually compiling for the emulator when you build for the emulator. | 09:54 |
| Yaniel | but WP7 and symbian/maemo emulators weren't really any better than deploying to a real device | 09:55 |
| backjlack | Instead of having a real iOS system under the app, you have a fake system which exposes the same things as the real OS. | 09:55 |
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| Yaniel | WP emulator might be a VM though | 09:55 |
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| backjlack | WP has such a small market it wasn't even worth looking at. | 09:56 |
| Yaniel | maybe not but I have used it so it works as a reference for me | 09:56 |
| Yaniel | anyways | 09:57 |
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| backjlack | That was just my opinion and what I've done. I know it makes sense for other folks to develop for it. | 09:57 |
| Yaniel | since the VM is x86 anyways it probably would be possible to make a decent emulator | 09:57 |
| Yaniel | (I don't consider wp worth the time either, but hey it's an experience) | 09:58 |
| Nicd- | iOS simulator also has the advantage that it only runs on OS X | 09:58 |
| Yaniel | but a VM does give you a lot much more flexibility wrt what you can do | 09:59 |
| Nicd- | it's not as easy to design a cross-platform simulator running as a regular application | 09:59 |
| Nicd- | that would work exactly the same on every system | 09:59 |
| backjlack | Yes, you'd have to take care of the FS and a lot of other things. | 09:59 |
| backjlack | Though, it would certainly be worth the effort, imo. | 09:59 |
| Yaniel | what's the problem with a VM vs an emulator anyways? | 10:00 |
| Nicd- | I don't know, I think that effort could be spent more wisely improving the OS/SDK or developing programs | 10:00 |
| backjlack | When I write something which uses Qt, it's very simple and cool. I have Qt Creator and Qt, I don't have to think about anything else. | 10:00 |
| Yaniel | the need for virtualization support? | 10:00 |
| backjlack | When I need to set up the Android SDK, it's a bit annoying - download this, add an emulator instance, run it, wait for it to start *as slowly as possible* OR run an x86 based Android VM which is outdated already. | 10:02 |
| backjlack | It's outside of the environment. It's not completely integrated. It feels off. | 10:02 |
| Yaniel | well sailfish requires you to have virtualbox installed and the kernel module loaded and that's it | 10:02 |
| Yaniel | and the VM startup times aren't bad either | 10:03 |
| Yaniel | no big deal IMHO | 10:04 |
| backjlack | Perhaps it can be integrated in a better way. | 10:04 |
| backjlack | e.g.: I'm merely interacting with virtualbox, not with something sailfish specific. | 10:05 |
| Nicd- | why would there need to be something more specific? | 10:05 |
| Yaniel | better than "all you'll ever have to see of virtualbox is the VM screen"? | 10:05 |
| Nicd- | only problem I can think of are the resources taken by the VMs but they're not so bad | 10:06 |
| backjlack | This is why people continue to develop for iOS, imo. | 10:06 |
| Nicd- | because the simulator looks better? | 10:07 |
| backjlack | No, it's because it's well integrated and has good performance. | 10:07 |
| Yaniel | sorry if I misunderstand | 10:07 |
| lbt | FYI we are interested in issues with the SDK and dev experience - comparisons with other environments etc | 10:07 |
| backjlack | Android is far behind with its IDE and emulators. SailfishOS is already better than Android because it's using Qt Creator. | 10:07 |
| lbt | specifics help of course :) | 10:08 |
| Yaniel | but all I seem to be able to read here is "VMs are inherently bad because android" | 10:08 |
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| lbt | Yaniel: yes - I'd be interested in what's different between a VM and other system resource containers | 10:09 |
| backjlack | lbt: I'd like to build an Android app, I have Android devices to run it on. Let's see, what can I use for that? Eclipse + Android SDK + the qemu based emulators...that doesn't look too good. | 10:09 |
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| backjlack | Ok, maybe I can set up a custom vbox VM with an x86 android image. Hmm, it looks like all I can get are these outdated androvm VMs. | 10:09 |
| Yaniel | that's an android-specific issue IMO | 10:09 |
| backjlack | They don't even support everything, so it's semi-functional. | 10:09 |
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| backjlack | Yaniel: I know, I was trying to make a point about making things convenient. | 10:10 |
| Yaniel | totally irrelevant to the VM vs emulator discussion | 10:10 |
| lbt | backjlack: OK - so we need to be better than that | 10:10 |
| Yaniel | can you please tell me how it is not convenient | 10:10 |
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| Yaniel | "press a button in the IDE - you get a window with the OS running your app" | 10:10 |
| lbt | we know of some minor usability issues right now - like you press and it launches and you have to press again .. but that's a bug for sure | 10:11 |
| backjlack | Once the first phone is out and people actually try to build apps, I'm sure you'll get more or less the same kind of feedback I've provided. | 10:11 |
| lbt | backjlack: which is? | 10:11 |
| lbt | seriously - I would like to make some notes on any issues you have | 10:12 |
| lbt | eg right now the emulator is 'just a vm window' | 10:12 |
| Yaniel | backjlack: FYI he is really serious - he maintains the SDK | 10:12 |
| Nicd- | lbt is serious business | 10:13 |
| lbt | but it uses RDP internally and I'm interested in skinning that to support better simulation | 10:13 |
| backjlack | lbt: An emulator like the iOS one would be nice to have and it'd make the experience much better. I've been using virtual machines since 2003 and there isn't much you can throw at me to confuse me, but others only know how to work with iOS tools. | 10:13 |
| Yaniel | what is it about iOS tools that makes them so special then? | 10:13 |
| lbt | backjlack: *nod* ... our goal is to hide the tech unless you want to get at it | 10:13 |
| Yaniel | that they can be accessed directly from the main IDE? | 10:13 |
| Stskeeps | they run only on mac ;) | 10:13 |
| Yaniel | that hey have shiny icons for stuff? | 10:13 |
| lbt | hehe | 10:14 |
| Nicd- | what's the problem with the VM? you don't have to interact with the VM window | 10:14 |
| backjlack | Yaniel: That would be one point, yes. The other is that they don't show you any innards of the emulator. | 10:14 |
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| lbt | backjlack: we have some fans already - but lets see if we can drill down into your concerns. I need concrete things if I'm to change them | 10:15 |
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| Yaniel | well | 10:15 |
| lbt | backjlack: showing you the innards - agree | 10:15 |
| Yaniel | have you actually tried the sdk yet? | 10:15 |
| backjlack | Last time I've tried the SDK, I was getting a standard virtualbox window with SailfishOS running in it. I didn't quite know what SailfishOS expected me to do in that VM window to shut it down and so on. | 10:15 |
| Yaniel | well | 10:15 |
| Yaniel | 1) there are two VMs | 10:15 |
| Yaniel | one for compiling, one for the "emulator" | 10:15 |
| Yaniel | all you need to do is to have them running when you need them | 10:16 |
| lbt | backjlack: yep - that's valid - we should explain them unless they are skinned to appear part of QtC | 10:16 |
| Yaniel | pretty much like start the sdk vm, minimize it and forget about it | 10:16 |
| lbt | Yaniel: we've had suggestions to hide the engine VM | 10:16 |
| Yaniel | that would be nice lbt | 10:16 |
| lbt | problems are that on windows it pops up warnings - and if you start it minimised... you can't see them | 10:17 |
| lbt | like ... grrr | 10:17 |
| Yaniel | do the warnings have some sort of urgency flag? | 10:17 |
| lbt | honestly don't recall | 10:18 |
| lbt | I thing we'll eventually start it headless with an option to allow a window for console | 10:18 |
| backjlack | Couldn't those warnings be retrieved and shown in another place if that's needed? | 10:18 |
| lbt | backjlack: so if we made the vm windows visually integrate - would that address your issue? | 10:19 |
| lbt | backjlack: possibly | 10:19 |
| Yaniel | hmm | 10:19 |
| lbt | backjlack: also be aware that we're resource limited | 10:19 |
| Yaniel | and the emulator vm is supposed to be controlled from qt creator | 10:19 |
| Yaniel | re "I didn't quite know what sailfishos expected me to do" | 10:20 |
| backjlack | lbt: Yes, I've provided this feedback so that SailfishOS could have one thing to make the development experience much better than Android's and to attract iOS devs. | 10:20 |
| lbt | Yaniel: they are controlled from there - but it's not obvious to non-vm users I think | 10:20 |
| Yaniel | exactly | 10:20 |
| Yaniel | and not necessarily even for vm users | 10:20 |
| lbt | backjlack: *nod* ... and it can be tough to stand up and say what's wrong :) | 10:21 |
| Yaniel | I like the fact that it still is a full blown vm because of the control virtualbox gives me over it | 10:21 |
| Yaniel | but maybe the virtualbox UI could be some advanced option? | 10:21 |
| backjlack | I've been a fan of Android's for a long time, but I've been badly annoyed by the fact that 1) I can't really build my own kernel for it to have better power saving - the sources are always old and no git tree for the kernel is given with tagged versions for releases 2) Updates are a game of politics - want the newest? buy the latest phone. | 10:21 |
| lbt | Yaniel: and in future - when Sailfish runs on multiple devices - each will have its own VM | 10:22 |
| lbt | even today you can run a Nemo emulator with it | 10:22 |
| lbt | backjlack: we definitely address those issues to some degree | 10:22 |
| Yaniel | (on a totally unrelated note, nice to see this discussion get productive) | 10:23 |
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| backjlack | I've customized my phone's kernel to run for up to 14 days on a full charge. That was a really difficult thing to do mostly because of how complicated it was to get the boot img on the phone. | 10:24 |
| backjlack | Building the kernel and making the code changes was the easy part. | 10:24 |
| lbt | backjlack: hehe - you should hang out in #mer too then - much lower level platform/os development | 10:24 |
| backjlack | lbt: Thank you for the tip. I'll join now. | 10:24 |
| lbt | right - I need to go make updating work in some fashion for the next release | 10:25 |
| Yaniel | yay, an updater | 10:26 |
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| Yaniel | anyways so having a vm is no problem as long as it is well integrated? | 10:31 |
| Yaniel | backjlack: ^ | 10:31 |
| Yaniel | or rather, wether it is a vm or an emulator is meaningless | 10:31 |
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| backjlack | Yaniel: It's ok if it's a properly integrated VM. That would make it OK to have an emulator later. | 10:44 |
| backjlack | The point of having an emulator was about removing possible variables and about making it fast to start and run. | 10:45 |
| Nicd- | what variables? I would assume an emulator has more problems with that than a VM | 10:45 |
| Nicd- | since an emulator depends on the platform it's running on | 10:45 |
| backjlack | Nicd-: The state of the VM and that of the OS running in it. | 10:46 |
| backjlack | Even with androvm and the android SDK, I've had problems with the two not communicating properly sometimes. | 10:46 |
| backjlack | I had to import a fresh copy of androvm for some reason. | 10:47 |
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| Nicd- | I think any effort would be better spent fixing any bugs with the VMs | 10:53 |
| backjlack | I was just saying the emulator can be added later - as in much later. | 10:54 |
| Nicd- | even then I would think there were better things to do since the problems are pretty minor (in my eyes) | 10:55 |
| Nicd- | a crossplatform emulator would *not* be an easy task | 10:55 |
| backjlack | It really depends on what has to be implemented, imo. | 10:55 |
| xavinux | Hi people | 10:56 |
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| xavinux | will the Sailfish UX support Spanish language? | 15:05 |
| Hartzi | is a language part of the user experience or why people are asking can UX handle this or that? | 15:11 |
| Hartzi | usually everything is localized | 15:12 |
| Hartzi | it's very weird if not | 15:12 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | Hartzi: I guess he wanted to ask: will the version of sailfish OS that the Jolla ships be translated to spanish | 15:12 |
| Hartzi | Sfiet_Konstantin: yes i thought so but I wasn't sure | 15:13 |
| veskuh | xavinux, we are working on Spanish support. I do not know if it will be in the first set of languages or not. | 15:13 |
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| xavinux | ok, if help is neede, Spanish is my native languaje. I'll be glad to help if you nedeed | 15:16 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | veskuh: did you (sailors at Jolla) thought about using stuff like transifex to allow collaborative translation ? | 15:17 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | maybe it is not reliable ? or too expensive for a company ? | 15:17 |
| veskuh | Sfiet_Konstantin, yes, we have been thinking about similiar thing. | 15:18 |
| Sfiet_Konstantin | cool :) | 15:18 |
| veskuh | We did some infra work already and internally also utilize sailors own language skills. (We are international bunch). For public use, well let's see, its more complex thing. | 15:19 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | veskuh: yeah, of cause | 15:20 |
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| xavinux | ok | 15:22 |
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