Saturday, 2013-07-06

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zmcDoes anyone know, how difficult it would be to replace wayland/sailfishUI with desktop X11 software on the new Jolla phone?00:47
special..out of curiosity, *why*?00:48
zmcI use my phone as a workstation a lot.  I currently use an ungodly mess of loopback filesystems and other crap to accomplish this on android.  I would like to be able to kill off the phone UI, pull up the environment of my liking, then revert in a clean way00:50
specialbut anyway, without speaking to sailfish specifically, you could look at nemo and mer for an idea of how the middle of the stack fits together00:50
zmcThis doesn't work on android because of the graphics drivers in the kernel not playing nice with X11 and Binder messing things up.00:51
specialnot very much plays nice with X11.00:51
zmcFrom a driver standpoint do you know if you just get a straight old /dev/fb0 that I can write to after wayland is killed off?00:51
zmcLots of things play nice with X11 except for newer phone and tablet hardware.00:52
specialif you don't care about hardware acceleration, you can get something like a direct framebuffer on pretty much anything00:52
specialmaybe with a few extra hacks for certain types of screens00:52
zmcYou would be suprised at how difficult that is to accomplish on android devices.  Most graphics drivers live in binary blobs that talk to android.00:53
zmcThis is why I am curious as to how the Jolla phone specifically talks to the hardware.00:53
specialnot much has been said about that00:54
specialdo you know about xwayland?00:54
zmcLast I heard it was incomplete, and I'm not interested in that.  Xmir is the same story.00:55
specialwell, X is a bit of a nightmare in graphics adaptation, and it's (for good reason) dying out00:56
zmcI understand most of the technical difficulties with X, but I think the push to wayland and mir is a lot more political than technical.00:57
zmcIdeally it shouldn't matter if it's X11 or wayland or mir or something else talking directly to the hardware.00:58
specialhaving witnessed it myself, there are a lot of very good technical reasons00:58
specialit's difficult for graphics drivers to work with X (and get decent performance), and it's even more difficult to build a modern system on top of X (and get decent performance)00:59
zmcThat's more of a political problem than a technical one.  SoC manufacturers don't play nice usually.  With modern phones having dedicated GPU's and huge cpu performance it's more of a driver issue than a hardware issue.01:00
zmcI understand why mass market is moving to wayland and the like. but there is also no good reason from a technical standpoint that you can't just put debian on a phone or tablet and call it a day.01:01
specialmodern phones have great GPU and CPU performance, sure, but the expectations are much higher01:01
specialyou need a solid 60fps these days, and that is possibly even a tighter budget than it was back when they didn't have much hardware to work with.01:02
zmcIf the SoC manufacturers wrote drivers for X11 that wouldn't be that much of an issue, the problem is that they dont, and mostly any specs you can get out of them are under NDA.01:03
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zmcI've gone down the road of reverse engineering phone SoC's to get my software to run how I like, and I know that by the time you have something basically working, it's obsolete.  So I haven't tried that hard with my android devices.01:06
zmcI'm just hoping that the new Jolla phone will be something that I don't have to break to have it run the code I want it to.01:06
zmcDo you know anything about how it interfaces with the gsm radio?01:07
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specialfor those kind of technical details, you'll just have to wait and see, I guess :p01:09
zmcLol, okay. I'm game. I already signed up for the preorder. I love the fact that you guys have managed to get something to market at all.  And honestly the Sailfish SDK is the most elegant mobile development suite I have ever seen.01:10
zmcEspecially if you compare it to what the heavy hitters have done with Tizen.01:11
specialthanks :p01:11
specialfwiw, we are all opensource people, nemo and mer are part of the platform.. it won't be everything to everyone, but there is at least good reason to hope for open, hackable, and exciting.01:12
zmcI felt the same way for the HTC G1 launch, and even though it took close to 5 years for the hardware to be fully open it did happen.  It also changed peoples expectations for phones.  I'm really hoping that Sailfish/Jolla becomes sucessful because it will push those boundries even farther.01:14
zmcEveryone is trying to "appstore" their business model.  I don't know how things are going at Jolla, but it looks like their business is more centered on selling good phones.01:16
zmcWell I came in here because of an itch.  I have a nexus 4 and android is making me upset.  I understand that Sailfish isn't going to be completely released until after the hardware hits the streets.  Is there anything that I can do to help out around here while I wait?01:19
specialpreorders are great, spread the word, use the sdk, explore nemo and middleware01:22
speciala lot of people even in technical and mobile circles don't know much or anything about jolla yet01:22
specialbut that's changing.01:23
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zmcI'll try installing the nemo 586 iso in virtual box.  Last time I tried it with KVM, X came up fine, but I never got a ui. just a black screen.01:30
Merbot`Nemo bug 586 in nemo-qml-plugins "Create a QML plugin wrapping mlocale" [Normal,New]
zmc!merbot help01:45
Merbot`zmc: Error: "merbot" is not a valid command.01:45
Merbot`zmc: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.01:45
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zmcI'm using the latest 586-vm nemo image under kvm and I just get a X cursor. After logging into the text console on vt2 i ran the installer-shell but I can't boot the resulting installation. Am I missing something?02:45
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