Friday, 2017-06-23

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King_DuckZguys, the new blog post has been out for a day and it's already infected by those idiotic refunders13:14
King_DuckZthey keep on complaining no matter what jolla says, or even if the post is not about them at all13:15
r0kk3rzit mentions a refund strategy, so its relevant13:16
leszekhaters gonna hate13:16
King_DuckZyeah, and people are complaining because they want to see the financial records of jolla and the algorithm used for the random selection13:16
King_DuckZlike wtf do they care if it's random or pseudo-random, marsenne or w/e, that's really just for the sake of being an asshole13:17
r0kk3rzpeople are free to be unreasonable13:17
tortoisedocyeah, people somehow like to hate jolla13:18
King_DuckZit still ruins the environment on the blog13:19
tortoisedocif they have a reason for it i mean13:19
tadzik"I contributed to a crowdfun and now I'm angry that it was not a shop!"13:19
King_DuckZtortoisedoc: it's just a bunch of idiots imo, not "people": Dave999 BraapBraap RefundAvenger and a few others13:19
tortoisedocthey are probably all the same person btw13:20
maheartIt's toxic13:20
tortoisedocjust remember King_DuckZ do not feed the trolls13:20
King_DuckZtortoisedoc: yeah, I only posted once, but I know I'm talking to the deaf13:21
^7heo< r0kk3rz> people are free to be unreasonable13:21
^7heoFurthermore, they are even free to doubt the obvious.13:22
^7heoThat's how there still is a president in the US that has been put in place by Putin.13:22
^7heoSo, wtf. People. I met enough of them. What a bunch of bastards. ™13:22
tortoisedoc^7heo : i give him 6 months to impeachment13:23
^7heoyou know what's funny tho?13:23
tortoisedocand im not us citizen :p13:23
King_DuckZat least they don't come to IRC, not often enough for me to notice at least... when there was the 'scandal' about Chucklefish they were literally shitposting on IRC, employees' personal twitter accounts, reddit, anything that would allow them to type their crap13:23
^7heotortoisedoc: if he gets impeached, and if it's proven that the elections were rigged and played...13:23
King_DuckZa la gamer gate13:23
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^7heotortoisedoc: the president still isn't gonna be the person the people elected.13:24
^7heotortoisedoc: it's like, if you wanna be president; just run as vice president for someone that cheats.13:24
tortoisedocgop has all to win13:24
^7heothat way you end up president.13:24
^7heobeing rightfully elected doesn't get you anywhere.13:25
tortoisedocthe second problem (bigger) is that impeachment might directly imply rogged elections, ergo interference by russians (as rhey claim)13:25
tortoisedocus russia relations.goodbye13:25
tortoisedoc*rigged too13:25
tortoisedocKing_DuckZ: Chucklefish?13:26
King_DuckZthe guys behind starbound13:26
tortoisedocstarbound ;_;???13:26
r0kk3rzthis is quickly getting offtopic :)13:26
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tortoisedocwhats starbound?13:27
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tortoisedocr0kk3rz at least theres chatter here :p13:27
^7heo< tortoisedoc> us russia relations.goodbye13:27
r0kk3rzpfft, let it sleep13:27
^7heotortoisedoc: I don't think it's anywhere good anyway.13:27
King_DuckZthey released starbound as an early access and they missed the stable release date, and people with like 90+ hours of gameplay in record were furiously demanding the 15$ they paid for the early access back because the quest system was not there or some other nonsense13:28
^7heotortoisedoc: between putin being like "Hackers are free spirited artists. Totally not state directed or funded.13:28
^7heoand the history of the cold war...13:28
^7heoI don't think it could look good any time.13:28
King_DuckZtortoisedoc: pff do you live under a rock? -_-13:28
tortoisedocKing_DuckZ: bever been on steam; i do real life ;)13:29
King_DuckZtortoisedoc: and playstarbound.something13:29
^7heonah but starbound is downright fucking awesome tho.13:29
^7heoeven if you live under a rock... you should play it.13:29
King_DuckZ^ +113:29
tortoisedoc^7heo: yeah, but i mean ww3 is pretty much almost happening; so anything worsening the situation is to be taken with care13:30
^7heotortoisedoc: I don't think it's almost happening.13:30
tortoisedoc^7heo : where have you been the past three years?13:31
^7heotortoisedoc: the difference between WWII and the potential WWIII is that WWII was ended by nuclear bombing. WWIII cannot happen with nuclear weapons, they are way too destructive tbh13:31
^7heomaybe with biological and or chemical warefare.13:31
tortoisedocexactly, guerrilla and terrorism are ww313:31
^7heoyeah ok13:31
^7heobut that's different13:31
^7heobecause the count of death is MUCH different.13:31
tortoisedocit still wprld wide13:31
^7heoit's world wide13:32
^7heothat's the ONLY common point.13:32
^7heoWWII death toll is INSANE.13:32
tortoisedocmay be only a matter of tiem13:32
^7heono it cannot be.13:32
tortoisedocyesh sure13:32
^7heothis is very much offtopic anyway.13:32
tortoisedoctyping with no autocirrection is a mess btw13:33
^7heobut to total the amount of death from WWII via terrorism, you need terrorists to game up a FUCKING lot.13:33
^7heolike, I mean, we still have more deads from car accidents and smoking than terrorism13:33
siljefrom «new blog post» to WWIII in 15 minutes :p13:33
^7heoit's scary, but not relevant.13:33
tortoisedocof coirse also warfare has evolved from ww2 and is much more chirurgical13:33
^7heosilje: well, WWIII is gonna happen on internet, or not at all.13:33
^7heosilje: so it's kinda on topic, when put that way :D13:34
tortoisedocthatd be awesome13:34
^7heohow would that be awesome?13:34
tortoisedocyou it always13:34
^7heook you didn't get it right.13:34
^7heo"happens on internet" means: no more network for you, or no more steam games, or...13:34
^7heoI didn't mean "it's gonna be COD4"13:34
tortoisedocno more porn...13:35
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^7heoThat is why you have to make a local copy.13:35
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tortoisedocthats so 90s13:36
^7heoAnd get an electricity generator13:36
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^7heoAnd prepare to build a new network locally13:36
tortoisedocsolar panels!13:36
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tortoisedocand routers13:36
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siljeand your own silisium factory13:37
tortoisedocanyways about the trolls13:37
tadziktortoisedoc: what's your native language, if you don't mind my asking?13:37
tortoisedocits funny the comments you get here and there13:37
tortoisedoctadzik: why do you want to know :p13:38
tadziktortoisedoc: I wonder where else than Poland you use "chirurg" for "surgeon" :P13:38
tadzikwait, chirurgical is a thing13:38
tortoisedoclike in some jolla discussion the words "hostile takeover" were mentioned13:39
tortoisedoctadzik: in german you do?13:39
tadziktortoisedoc: yeah, TIL. It's apparently considered archaic english too13:39
tortoisedoctadzik: but thats not my native language btw13:39
tadzikI thought I just spotted a false friend13:39
^7heotortoisedoc: bist Du Deutsch?13:40
siljetadzik: in Norwegian we say chirurg13:40
tortoisedoctadzik: oh heh :) no sorry13:40
tadziksilje: ha, interesting13:40
tortoisedoc^7heo: ne aber ich spreche deutsch13:40
^7heoah no you just said you're not.13:40
tadzikmore widespread than I thought13:40
^7heoja ok :D13:40
tortoisedocdamn autocorrection...jollaaaaa13:41
^7heoI replaced my Jolla by a Google Pixel13:41
tadzikjust one pixel!? :P13:42
tortoisedoc^7heo: with sfos? :p13:42
^7heoIt's expensive enough13:42
^7heotortoisedoc: no, I'm not dumb.13:42
^7heotortoisedoc: sfos is a great idea, but the implementation sucks hairy balls.13:42
tortoisedoc^7heo: nothing wrong woth sfos tbh13:42
^7heotortoisedoc: yes something wrong wit hit.13:42
^7heowith it.13:42
^7heothat's what's wrong with it.13:42
tortoisedocits alot better than when they released it13:42
^7heothe base is totally rotten.13:42
tadzikyou're in for a surprise13:43
^7heobut yeah let's not #troll again.13:43
^7heoyeah it's not debian13:43
^7heoit's RPM based13:43
tortoisedocrpms dude?13:43
^7heobut whatever base they used13:43
^7heowhich I don't care about tbh.13:43
tortoisedocdebian os .deb and pdkg13:43
tadzikwhat difference does it make, really13:43
^7heotadzik: the difference between usable and not?13:43
^7heotadzik: so pretty much a big one.13:43
tortoisedocn9 was debian :p13:43
tadzik^7heo: how does the base system determine the usability?13:44
^7heotadzik: the Jolla has only 1GB of ram...13:44
tadzikeverything that matters is on a different layer of abstraction13:44
^7heotadzik: by the amount of memory it needs to run13:44
tortoisedocit sucked hairy balls to dev on it13:44
^7heototally not.13:44
^7heothis is so wrong.13:44
tortoisedoci mean ever made a deb package yourself?13:44
^7heoit's just an archive.13:44
tortoisedocits just wrong13:44
^7heonothing magical.13:44
^7heoyeah it's not the best, but it somehow works.13:44
^7heothe .deb format isn't my problem with debian tbh13:45
tortoisedocrpm forever.:p13:45
tadzikso what exactly in the mer stack is responsible for the memory hunger, in your view?13:45
^7heorpm isn't better heh.13:45
^7heotadzik: pretty much GNU13:45
tortoisedoctadzik: qt13:45
^7heoand qt, but you can't realistically avoid that one.13:45
tadziktortoisedoc: yeah, that's what I mean by different abstraction layer13:45
^7heoplus yeah QT is not really "system"13:45
tortoisedocwhats the gnu in mer?13:46
^7heoliterally everything.13:46
^7heothe libc, the coreutils, etc.13:46
r0kk3rzeverything takes ram, for sure13:46
r0kk3rzkinda hard to run programs without it tbh13:46
tadzikdamn, I always thought that it's dalvik and the webrenderer being the ram chugger13:46
^7heor0kk3rz: not the SAME amount of ram tho.13:46
tadzikbut apparently it's coreutils13:47
^7heor0kk3rz: 1G is pretty low for a phone.13:47
r0kk3rzthese days sure13:47
^7heotadzik: the thing is; the webrenderer is eating a LOT more ram13:47
^7heotadzik: but again, you can't fix that.13:47
tadziksorry for the strawmaning, but I really feel like you're focusing on the wrong thing13:47
r0kk3rzit was common enough when jphone was released13:47
^7heotadzik: you'd have to fix the web13:47
^7heoanyway, I didn't mean to troll; I'll see what I can salvage from sailfish when I need to replace my phone13:48
^7heobut I have used sailfish, it just isn't usable for me.13:48
^7heo(again, for *me*)13:48
^7heoI really like the fact that Jolla was their own hardware design tho.13:48
tadzikI feel like replacing glibc with bionic or whatever other core component you desire will still be a microoptimization compared to what actually causes sailfish's memory shortage13:49
tango_what causes sailfish' memory shortage?13:50
^7heothe browser13:50
tadzikas for suboptimal hardware, no argument there13:50
tadziktango_: in my experience mostly the browser and aliendalvik13:50
^7heoand the graphical stack13:50
^7heoisn't aliendalvik the graphical stack?13:50
tango_no, alien is the jvm for android apps13:51
^7heoah ok13:51
^7heoI never touched taht13:51
tango_(not really jvm, but yeah)13:51
r0kk3rzbut there is an android graphics stack in the adaptation13:51
r0kk3rzthats just reality13:51
^7heoI never touched it; and yet Jolla isn't usable with sailfish13:51
tango_alien isn't resident if you don't use it though13:51
^7heoBut look, if you think the system isn't relevant in the problem...13:51
tadzikwas it usable with anything else?13:51
tango_in fact you can stop it compltely13:51
malI haven't had any memory issues on Jolla 113:51
^7heojust guess how many kernel panics I experienced13:51
^7heobecause syscrapd segfaulted13:52
tango_for the browser, I wonder if using the new qtwebkit would be an improvement over the old gecko13:52
r0kk3rz^7heo: you havent really articulated the problem as such, just used vague terms like 'unusable'13:52
tadzikof all the weird things I had happen with both jollas, that's new to me13:52
tango_mal: I've had alien OOMing more than once13:52
tango_also I think the media stuff has some leaks13:52
^7heor0kk3rz: because that's *FAR* from being the only issue13:52
^7heor0kk3rz: that is a detail13:52
^7heor0kk3rz: but syscrapd isn't the only thing that segfaults13:52
^7heor0kk3rz: or crashes13:52
tadzikmal: like tango, I had apps getting killed every other day on j113:52
malI only use a couple of android apps and nothing very heavy13:53
^7heor0kk3rz: or lags terribly (I'm talking several dozen of minutes of lag here)13:53
tango_the only time I've had lag is when it decided it wanted to download all of my gmail13:53
^7heoI mean I totally like and respect the idea behind sailfishOS13:53
tango_that made the phone completely unresonspive13:53
^7heotango_: try booting with sdcards in13:53
malhow many apps do you have open at the same time?13:53
tango_^7heo: I always have an sdcard in13:53
^7heotango_: I gained approximately 20 minutes of boot time by removing the SD card.13:54
^7heotango_: such sd card works perfectly fine in my other machines.13:54
tadzikmal: usually around 6 these days13:54
tadzikI'm on the aquafish now13:54
tango_^7heo: never had this issue. boot is most definitely 20 minutes here13:54
^7heoAgain, I totally like and respect the idea behind sailfishOS13:54
r0kk3rz20min? interesting....13:54
^7heor0kk3rz: well, approximately.13:54
tango_and it's an sdcard filled with music13:54
tadzikyes we get it, but the issues you bring up are completely unheard of13:54
^7heor0kk3rz: I didn't count, I just waited and did math.13:54
^7heor0kk3rz: but yeah, around 15-25 minutes with sdcard13:55
tango_so the media stuff (which I'm sure has a leak, BTW) definitely doesn't help13:55
tadziknot like sailfish is without problems, sure, but hours of lag and 20 minutes of bootup?13:55
tango_ok, let me time the boot now13:55
^7heotadzik: I blame that on syscrapd13:55
r0kk3rzreboots for me has always been quite quick, but YMMV13:55
^7heotadzik: it does all the things lower-level anyway13:55
maltango_: 20 minutes, how is that even possible, for me it's like a minute13:55
tadziksomehow I'm not surprised13:55
tango_ok it starts ... now13:55
^7heotadzik: and it has the maturity of an american cheese.13:55
r0kk3rzyou gotta start somewhere13:56
tadzikwell you're not exactly showing maturity yourself by calling it "syscrapd" to prove a point:P13:56
tango_didn't even take two minutes13:56
tango_with an sdcard in13:56
^7heor0kk3rz: yeah, somewhere that isn't a complete disgrace to software design and quality.13:56
tango_^7heo: something was seriously fscked with your hardware13:56
tango_either your FS were crapping out or whatever else13:57
^7heotango_: well yes, I got angry at it after it started booting for 20 minutes every time for ages13:57
r0kk3rzbtrfs issues causes all kinds of shennanigans thats true13:57
^7heotango_: so I basically fucked it up after.13:57
^7heotango_: but that happened on a clean, fresh hardware.13:57
^7heotango_: before I started slapping it every other day13:57
malsounds like a hardware issue13:58
tango_looks like you got the losing ticket on the lottery then13:58
^7heoI dunno13:58
tadzikI'm sure it was gnu13:58
tango_because I've never had that kind of problem, and I have _lots_ to complain about about sailfish13:58
^7heoI got only one device, so there's not much room for statistics.13:58
^7heotadzik: that is very relevant to the discussion; thanks for your valuable input.13:58
^7heotango_: well, how long have you used it?13:58
^7heotango_: it started happening roughly a year after I got it.13:59
tango_^7heo: I have one of the First ones13:59
^7heotadzik: you think?13:59
tadzikjolla was really following nokia's maemo traditions when it comes to shipping faulty devices ;)13:59
tango_december 2013?13:59
^7heoI got mine summer 201513:59
^7heoI think that was one of the last ones.13:59
tango_I use it as smart- without the -phone thing, that might have something to do with it13:59
maltadzik: I'm pretty sure all manufacturers sometimes send faulty devices13:59
tadzikmal: oh, of course14:00
tadzikbut the battery connectors fault was probably even more widespread than n900's usb thingy14:00
maland complaining about sailfish memory usage, I have sailfish running on a device with 512 MB of RAM14:00
^7heoah yeah I also had a problem with the battery connectors14:01
^7heobut that was extremely easy to fix14:01
^7heoI just had to pull them out with a set of pliers14:01
^7heoand it worked good as new14:01
tango_the  n900 usb thing is hardly an n900 problem14:01
maland that is still usable in my opinion14:01
^7heomal: we have different ideas of usable.14:01
^7heomal: how many tabs do you have open in firefox at once, max?14:02
tango_a lot of micr-usb connectors are flaky14:02
tango_(mini usb uber alles)14:02
^7heoUSB C is fine tbh14:02
tango_the biggest issue with the n900 for me was the frigging light sensor14:02
^7heothey really improved the design on that one14:02
mal^7heo: it depends, sometimes more than 20 or 30 usually less than 10, on mobile phone I rarely have many tabs in browser14:03
^7heoI maxxed at, I dunno, 8?14:04
^7heo10 maybe.14:04
^7heoand yet I had issues like "extremely rasterized rendering" when I scrolled, to the point of not being able to read a thing14:04
^7heoand the thing stayed rasterized for minutes14:04
^7heothen was suddently re-rendered fine14:04
^7heoand if I touched the screen and it scrolled just one pixel, BAM, rasterized again; gotta wait 10 more minutes.14:05
r0kk3rzyeah the browser isnt amazing, but browsers are hard14:05
^7heodefinitely hard14:05
^7heoI won't argue with that.14:05
^7heobrowsers are more than hard; tbh, they're a f***ing problem.14:05
malr0kk3rz: it doesn't help that a lot of websites are crap14:05
^7heo+1 ^14:05
r0kk3rzmal: that is the main reason why browsers are hard14:05
^7heoor, also, the same graphical buffer was rendered on every tab14:06
^7heono matter what tab I was on, I'd see the same thing14:06
^7heoand of course, the weekly segfault14:06
^7heoat the least.14:06
^7heoso yeah14:06
^7heoI don't have much to complain about for the rest tho.14:06
r0kk3rzyeah well thats mostly because jolla has been using electrolysis a lot longer than mozilla has14:06
malI only have browser open on my phone when I need to check something, same with mobile data14:06
^7heoit's mostly the system being unstable AF and slow AF and the browser being... a browser.14:07
r0kk3rzie. since like the beginning14:07
r0kk3rz^7heo: thats cool, we get it, enjoy your pixel14:07
^7heor0kk3rz: it doesn't mean I don't want to help Sailfish/Jolla tho.14:07
^7heor0kk3rz: I'm perfectly aware that there is a problem with the current state of the mobile OSes.14:07
^7heo(and hardware, but that's a different problem)14:07
^7heoin the end, yes I need something that works, but I'll still get more phones to run sailfish on14:08
^7heo(like a FP2 or my original Jolla)14:08
malI currently use FP2 with sailfish as my main phone, I have my Jolla 1 as a secondary phone for android apps14:09
r0kk3rzwith the segfaults you mention, im not sure it wasnt your device14:10
r0kk3rzlike, things dont crash for me, my uptime is measured in months14:10
malI can't remember ever having a crash on Jolla 1 or other official device14:10
King_DuckZI just received a company email saying there's some upcoming workshop and we should register if we want to participate, and if it's oversubscribed they will randomly select fewer people among all the subscribers14:13
King_DuckZI'm thinking to write a vitriolic email to the hr demanding that they show me proof it's oversubscribed and the random algorithm used for the random selection14:13
* King_DuckZ waves fist in air14:15
^7heor0kk3rz: I can't tell.14:18
^7heor0kk3rz: I have only one sailfish device for now.14:18
^7heor0kk3rz: I'll tell you when I get my FP214:18
tortoisedoc^7heo: btw speaking about trolls, the worse ive seen is the  cake on tmo for the one year tablet project..that was geht epy14:41
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tortoisedoc*was creepy14:41
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^7heotortoisedoc: I haven't seen that.14:49
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tortoisedoc^7heo its somewhere in the jolla tablet thread on tmo15:06
tortoisedoctried searching but tmi search sucks ballz15:06
^7heoyeah well, use google or whatever ;)15:09
tortoisedocwish that worked :D15:11
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r0kk3rzunfortunately that tablet thread is a little epic15:17
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tortoisedocr0kk3rz back then it seemed more like a vendetta15:24
tortoisedoci wonder what happened15:25
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brucebanneemy onyx tells me i'm running out of data storage21:41
brucebanneeunder the 'storage tab' under settings, it says mMa21:42
brucebanneeit says 'mass storage' has 1.2 gb free21:42
brucebannee10.6 gb used21:42
brucebanneesorry, 'mass *memory'. anyway, when i tap that, it says out of the 10.6 gb used, 8.2gb is under21:44
brucebannee8.2 gb is under 'Sailfish OS and other files'21:44
brucebanneemy question is how do i clear that?21:44
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brucebanneeanybody know?21:48
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