Thursday, 2017-11-16

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sledgesPSA: SFOS collab meeting in 2 minutes at #mer-meeting08:58
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StucKmanhi all! I just got my fairphone and i was reading this: from what I understand, I just need to download a zip file, enable TWRP and reboot? that's it? it seems too easy! am I missing anything?09:07
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r0kk3rzStucKman: the instructions is all you need09:10
StucKmanbut from what I understand, I can't test sailfish by booting from the sdcard?09:15
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r0kk3rzStucKman: not really, but its not that destructive, if you flash the old boot.img back everything remains untouched09:17
StucKmanand that's the thisrd question: my new fairphone came with a too-new FFOSOS (17.08.1 instead of 16.10, question is: where can I get in contact with other people who might tried to install from that one?09:21
r0kk3rzStucKman: then you either need to flash the old one first, or wait for mal to release his updated version09:26
StucKmanmal as in mal in this channel?09:27
StucKmanrite, thanks09:29
StucKmanI'll just stick around until he says hi :)09:29
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Mister_MagisterJust got one orignal Jolla battery for free. I bought one but it was damaged so seller sent me second one and now i have two for price of one :D10:28
StucKmanbut the fisrt is damaged...10:28
Mister_Magisterjust physically a bit10:30
Mister_Magisterbut it's working :D10:30
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Mister_Magistermy vps hosting is acting weird lol11:02
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malStucKman_: hi, I'm hoping to release new sailfish version soon (tm), only one regression left in the android 6 based builds11:13
malfor fp2 that is11:14
StucKman_mal: ok, one question: where can I read about the specifics of what it means to flash the phone ?11:15
StucKman_I mean, read references to the system image and the recovery image11:16
malStucKman_: what do you mean? the instructions are here (for android 6 based build it will be a bit simpler)
StucKman_but I don't know exactly what the layout in the phone or how they're chained/booted11:16
StucKman_mal: yes, the instructions were suspiciously too simple, thanks :)11:17
malStucKman_: btw, if you have a quite new fp2 then the old image probably won't work11:18
StucKman_new as in it arrived 2 days ago :)11:18
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malStucKman_: after I get one more fix done (hopefully for the release after this next one) then the instructions will be even more simple11:18
StucKman_so I better wait, then11:18
StucKman_would the new one work with 17.11.2/ the phone is nagging me to upgrade11:19
malStucKman_: ok, so then you'll need to wait for the next release because fp2 hardware has changed a bit and the new batches need android 611:19
malStucKman_: next release will be based on 17.1111:20
r0kk3rzStucKman_: why do you think the installation will be complicated?11:20
malStucKman_: the current installation for fp2 is much more complicated than for other devices which usually require installation of of only the base android and sailfish zips11:22
StucKman_r0kk3rz: I've also been reading about intalling debian on a n900 or n9 and is not even close that simple11:22
StucKman_mal: so you basically take an android image, grab some pieces, put them back together into a sailfish os, and test that?11:22
r0kk3rzStucKman_: yeah well, this isnt really like that at all11:23
StucKman_I know mer somehow uses some soft present in android images/phones11:23
StucKman_the kernel, for instance, I think11:23
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StucKman_and drivers and some part of the APIs11:24
StucKman_mal: so itś the HW changes that lead to regressions?11:25
r0kk3rzStucKman_: its mostly the android upgrade11:25
r0kk3rzbecause we hook into some lower level android stuff, when they change things it can break for us11:26
StucKman_it's the bits of andoird you reuse?11:26
StucKman_I'm just trying to get a picture of how this goes together11:26
StucKman_ok, thanks11:26
malStucKman_: the regression I have left is not because of hardware but because of a security fix in android11:26
StucKman_were do you read about all this?11:27
malsource code :)11:28
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r0kk3rzStucKman_: you start device porting, and then you get a great tour of the OS because you need to fix it all11:28
StucKman_'use the source, luke'11:28
StucKman_ok, I'll just wait11:28
r0kk3rzits a wonderful mishmash of things thats not standard between devices at all11:29
StucKman_this is amazing11:30
malespecially when you bump into bugs in android11:30
StucKman_i never thought upgrading a phone would be so easy11:30
r0kk3rzits easy because we do all the hard work to make it easy11:31
r0kk3rzin reality its amazing that we can take an android phone and get it fully working with glibc based OS at all11:33
StucKman_and the11:34
StucKman_does the system receive updates like a normal linux distro or it's till based on image updates?11:34
r0kk3rzfp2 has OTA updates, some others need rebuilding11:35
StucKman_but that's still image based, or am I wrong?11:36
StucKman_it's not apt/yum/zypper update/upgrade...11:36
r0kk3rzit is, but its also monolithic like an image based upgrade11:37
StucKman_is that because the phone's HW has no relation to computer storage?11:37
r0kk3rzbut all the pieces are in .rpm packages and updated through packagekit11:37
StucKman_ah, ok11:37
StucKman_so in thieory, if i had root/sudo and an rpm pakage manager in the system, I could do the update/upgrade myself?11:38
StucKman_then the obvious question: why not? what's missing?11:40
r0kk3rzim confused, why is something missing?11:41
StucKman_do I have root? can I update/upgrade via a package manager?11:42
r0kk3rzbut you dont prod the package manager in the usual way11:42
r0kk3rzthink of it like doing a dist-upgrade every time11:43
StucKman_but I guess the 'distro' is not like fedora or debian sid, which get updates every day... does it?11:43
StucKman_well, I do dist-upgrade every sunday11:44
StucKman_and security updates daily on my server11:44
r0kk3rzyeah its not like that11:44
r0kk3rzjolla releases upgrades periodically, like once a month at best11:45
StucKman_good enough11:47
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r0kk3rzso for eg. they're all encompassing upgrades like this:
r0kk3rzwith fixes, new features, whatever11:49
StucKman_and the base system? mer itself?11:51
r0kk3rzhow do you mean11:51
StucKman_I mean, most of the most important security patches are for system stuff11:52
StucKman_decoding libraries lije libjpeg or ilbxml11:52
StucKman_which I think are part of mer more than joall11:52
r0kk3rzits part of both, mer isnt really a distro as such11:53
r0kk3rzthese days is mostly just a collection of all the open source stuff that goes into sailfish11:54
StucKman_so a library gets a patch, mer ceates a new package, jolla picks it up and oputs it in the new sailfishos version, you guys tear it apart, put it in a new ff image and then I get my upgrade, did I get that right?11:55
StucKman_or once I have sailfish and the update is in it, i get to update directly?11:56
r0kk3rzsome devices you can get it direct, some devices its like you say11:57
StucKman_so, those supported sirectly by jolla, it ś direct, others like ff, go through guys like you11:58
r0kk3rzyeah, but in this instance for fp2 theres a command line process you can do instead of an image upgrade11:59
StucKman_so, were do I donate?12:00
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r0kk3rzdonate? to whom?12:03
StucKman_you two guys?12:05
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malStucKman_: I don't need any donations, quite many have asked and I always say no thanks12:14
StucKman_so thanks :)))12:17
Mister_Magistermal: lol why12:18
malMister_Magister: I just don't need it12:19
Mister_Magistermal: i'm using donation money only for my campaigns that mean to buy next device and bring sfos for it12:19
Mister_Magistermal: is rich :D12:19
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Mister_Magistermal: what are you doing for job?12:23
malMister_Magister: not really, I just have quite small expenses12:23
Mister_Magistersure i'm joking :)12:23
malMister_Magister: I'm just a normal software developer currently12:23
Mister_Magisterdeveloping in what language?12:23
malmostly c++12:24
Mister_Magisternice thanks for answer12:25
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freedwhaytHello, Can I compile my QML code using Qt Quick Compiler and run it on SailfishOS ?13:16
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malfreedwhayt: why not just follow the instructions at
Dottifreedwhayt: probably, but it would create dependency to private APIs13:21
freedwhaytmal: QML code is exposed in the application created, there is not a single example of entire C++ application, neither documentation of those libraries. My best bet is reading the C++ headers and grep for functions if I need something..13:24
freedwhaytDotti: even if it is paid I'm in, a lot of developers are withdrawn from SFOS because there is no easy way to hide your source13:25
freedwhaythow you make money of your application if it is totally open source and everyone can copy it and say it his own code ?13:25
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r0kk3rzin theory you should be able to, qml gets translated into c++ objects at runtime, and afaik all that compiler does is the first step13:27
malfreedwhayt: that depends on how much you implement in c++ side and how much in qml side13:28
freedwhaytr0kk3rz: Good point. Qt Quick Compiler is commercial software that provides the ability to compile QML code.13:29
freedwhaytMy concern is that it has nothing to do with Jolla/Sailfish and if I buy it, I might be abe to compile my QML for Linux/Mac/Windows GUI APPs and I would run into problems with it with Jolla's glibc13:30
freedwhayt is free alternative QML compiler but that seems much more impossible task to implement into sfos13:31
r0kk3rzhmm actually... you might get into trouble with silica13:31
freedwhaytExactly that is my concern.13:32
freedwhaytI have contact official emails of jolla/sailfish and never got a single answer. never.13:32
r0kk3rzanyway, im not sure anyones tried it, typically everyone around here is all about the open source13:32
freedwhaytDon't get me wrong, I'm two hands up for open source, but when it comes to business you might have an app you don't want to expose to plagiarism, at least in a single click of copy-paste. Reverse engineering can't be solved that's for sure.13:33
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r0kk3rzno need to explain, what you do with your code is up to you13:34
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freedwhaytWorst thing is project is really good and might help Jolla business and grow into something huge.13:35
Dottifreedwhayt: well of course you could keep all your business logic on c++ side and use QML only for defining UI13:35
malfreedwhayt: if implement most of the app in c++ then that can be closed source, does the UI side really have so much "secret" stuff that it's a problem?13:36
freedwhaytIt's just that the QML exposes a lot of the funcionality how it works and what is doing, that is my concern.13:36
Dottiyou can also compile QML code into the executable to make it a bit harder than just copy pasting13:36
r0kk3rzfreedwhayt: you also dont *have* to use silica if you really dont want13:36
Dottifreedwhayt: if you are silly enough, you can also encrypt that QML code13:37
freedwhaytyeah, exactly my question is how to compile that QML :)13:37
r0kk3rzfreedwhayt: take a look at QuasarMX and Situations13:38
freedwhaytAnd to be honest I would love to have access to the Sillica interface because it is very important to me, it is directly connected to how the application works.13:38
freedwhaytJolla dropped some dbus calls and how it is built for security i better have access to Silica in QML13:39
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r0kk3rzwhat does this app even do?13:42
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freedwhaytI'm legally binded can't disclose a thing :s13:43
r0kk3rzok, i was just curious13:45
freedwhaytNothing fancy indeed.13:45
r0kk3rzso super secret thing that needs to be obfuscated up the wazoo, ummm, yeah you might have to figure that out yourself :)13:45
freedwhaytIts the thing that such thing does not exist on SFOS and there maybe 1-2 apps for iOS/Android like that13:45
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r0kk3rzi guess you can throw it on the developers mailing list13:54
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elros_freedwhayt: maybe qrc is enough for you?14:01
freedwhaytelros_: you mean encrypting the QML's and decrypting in the C++ code and including with QRC? can QRC take a string and not a file path ?14:03
freedwhaytBecause if it needs to be decrypted into a temporary file this defeats the purpose14:04
elros_I never use it, just a thought. I remember fingerterm used to use qrc:
r0kk3rzyou can create qml objects from strings if you really want14:07
r0kk3rzsounds like a pita though14:08
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freedwhaytIndeed I can put the QML's in a QRC file.14:10
freedwhaytAnd if you attach a debugger and dump the ram, their source will be easily seen14:10
freedwhaytThanks guys, I'll go for the byte compiled thing if it is possible with sfos14:16
sledgeswasn't it that Jolla switched to plain-text qml last year? means it's possible to compile qml in14:17
sledgesmaybe jpetrell could know more14:17
sledgesor pvuorela14:18
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freedwhaytthanks sledges for suggestion. first hand experience on this will be great.14:21
Mister_Magisteri'm always happy to see new apps14:24
Mister_MagisterI didn't want to publish my app source then i realised libpurple has "liberty or die" license :D14:24
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jpetrellsledges: qml compilation comes in later versions of qt, oss qt 5.6 used in sfos doesn't yet support it. plain text qml is nice during development time but yeah precompiled should be noticeably faster15:09
sledgesjpetrell: so we had jolla apps shipping plain .qml files from day 0? my bad memory then :)15:10
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scratagurfnoob questions.. 1) is it possible to compile & run sailfish on an x86 tablet by compiling it yourself? 2) is it a "full experience", including the app portals, etc.. just like a customer who buys a Jolla device?15:13
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scratagurf*not compiling it on a tablet, for a tablet.. sorry. :)15:16
malit's possible to have jolla store on ported devices but some third party parts are not available like android support, exchange support and predictive input system15:18
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scratagurfmal: summa summarum, is it worth the task for an everyday device? do i need to compile the updates myself?15:23
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malyou only need to build some packages, most of the system is prebuilt15:24
elros_Can I somehow force sailfish theme imageprovider to return me icon from z2.0 even if I have pixelratio equal 1?15:29
scratagurfis there any list of supported touch screen and wifi drivers? i know nothing about wayland, X is more familiar..15:29
r0kk3rzscratagurf: that depends more on your kernel than anything else15:30
malscratagurf: is the device android device or something else?15:31
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scratagurfr0kk3rz: ok.. i have a kernel driver w/ firmware, it is a trekstor surftab wintron 7.0.. a win10 tablet.15:31
scratagurfx86 with EFI15:31
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r0kk3rzscratagurf: have you tried ubuntu or debian or something on it?15:34
scratagurfdebian 9.2.. which i'll configure there first. it installed, needs some fiddling w/ couple of drivers.15:35
scratagurfit ran win10 pretty decently until microsoft's eggheads decided to update their whole os in a single package.15:36
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onlyopenhi, i just installed sailfish on my motoG (falcon) and would like to ask, how to change keyboard16:27
onlyopento dvorak layout?16:27
onlyopen(on screen keyboard...)16:27
hahloonlyopen: what moto g? five?16:28
onlyopenno, first gen16:28
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r0kk3rzonlyopen: there might be something on openrepos for that...16:30
onlyopenok, how to install that, i have already internet connection and first uptime around 8 minutes...16:31
onlyopeni need joola account?16:31
r0kk3rzjolla account is for the normal store, is the community store16:33
onlyopenok, how to add and... where? :)16:34
r0kk3rzyou can install warehouse client16:35
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r0kk3rzor just download .rpms with the browser16:35
onlyopenyum is a package manager?16:37
r0kk3rzit is, but not one we use16:37
onlyopenah, ok,16:38
onlyopenok, i have opened in the browser window16:39
onlyopenok, and there is dvorak, english dvorak, and german one...16:39
onlyopenis dvorak works also with other languages?16:40
r0kk3rzi have no idea16:40
hahlocan one install yum in sfos x?16:41
r0kk3rzwhy would you want to do that?16:41
hahloI like yum16:41
r0kk3rzpkcon and zypper are available16:41
StucKmanhahlo: it's not up to you to choose, I think16:42
onlyopeni have problem with installation, i'll try with english ersion16:42
hahlousually one can install diffrent package managers to some distro, I myself are use apt and yum16:44
onlyopenok, there was some error during installation, but works as english dvorak, thank you a lot!16:46
r0kk3rzhahlo: you can try and install it if you really want, but generally we dont do much with package managers on sfos anyway16:48
hahlowhy not? no repos?16:49
r0kk3rzmost things are updated with the os through ui or ssu16:51
r0kk3rzor they're apps and have a ui manager of some kind16:52
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hahloI use it by ssh, but ok16:52
r0kk3rzor its one of the few things in mer-tools or on OBS, in which case is it really hard to go `pkcon install blah`?16:53
onlyopenis it possible to connect to mobile thru ssh out of the box?16:53
r0kk3rzonlyopen: yeah, you need to set the password16:53
hahloI think so yea16:53
onlyopenok i see... dev tools16:54
onlyopenwow, works :)16:55
hahloyeah its cool :)16:56
elros_can I add dependencies in patchmanager2?16:57
onlyopenis it normal that mobile have almost all memory full?17:03
StucKmanonlyopen: you mean ram?17:09
onlyopenMem:    908824k total,   888460k used,    20364k free,17:10
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onlyopenoh, inside of terminal there is no dvorak also, should i download something, or try to set up kyb env setting somwhere?17:13
onlyopenok, i see... (about mem) without browser, contacts and sms app, there is 200M more ;)17:14
onlyopenok, i can live with it17:14
pavi[m]r0kk3rz (IRC):  Thanks for your help on the matrix client. Its nice to finally have a native client.17:15
elros_what is the safe way to add particular package version dependecies for patch?17:18
StucKmanonlyopen: that's normal in any linux machine17:19
StucKmanwhat's not used by apps is used as cache17:20
onlyopeni don't think so, i have running OS with 300MB used ram on bananapi, but here maybe this graphic apps take more17:21
elros_I have 400MB used in htop with 3 apps opened (without browser)17:22
onlyopeni have fresh installation and top showing 725MB used17:24
elros_What about after reboot/lipstick restart?17:26
onlyopeni'll try in a while, i'm looking for option to add contacts from vcf file, do you know maybe how to do that?17:28
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elros_coderus: can I add pkg dependencies in my patch or I need to use rpm?17:34
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r0kk3rzpavi[m]: does it work for you?17:43
r0kk3rzpavi[m]: its a bit basic...17:43
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onlyopenelros: just in case, from settings menu > applications > people > "from contact file"17:43
pavi[m]r0kk3rz (IRC):  Yeah it works nice :-)17:44
pavi[m]Able to see groups17:44
pavi[m]send a message to group17:44
pavi[m]Which is a good start imho for matrix.17:44
pavi[m]Lots of things to be added but something is better than nothing.17:44
onlyopenthan you, r0kk3rz and rest of you, now i have to look around and see you soon :)17:47
r0kk3rzonlyopen: keep sailing!17:49
onlyopenelros: after reboot, 580MB used17:49
onlyopenwithou any apps, only wifi and ssh and top inside...17:49
onlyopenthanks, bye!17:50
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pavi[m]r0kk3rz (IRC): I like the IRC client on SFOS, wish matrix comes to that level feature wise.17:55
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r0kk3rzpavi[m]: we can only hope18:00
pavi[m]Not hope, but also possible.18:01
pavi[m]What we can dream of is video calls via the app.18:01
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r0kk3rzermagerd video calls, what insanity18:02
r0kk3rzit'll be like living in the 21st century18:02
r0kk3rzso future, much wow18:02
LarstiQit's good r0kk3rz is not cynical :)18:03
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pavi[m]r0kk3rz (IRC): Riot does it with webrtc. I cant imagine how a Qt app can do it?18:21
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r0kk3rzpavi[m]: yeah idk, qt would need to support webrtc or something19:59
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x2sr0kk3rz: pavi[m]: Uhm:
pavi[m]Nice so there is hope after all :)21:54
r0kk3rzyes i found that, lets see if it will work22:04
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Mister_Magistereclipse… 550% cpu usage22:29
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x2sMister_Magister: and only 450% are for the java vm ;P23:08
Mister_Magisterwhat do you mean? rest of the cpu is not used23:10
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