Wednesday, 2019-01-23

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alistair235[m]Turns out, it's really easy! Running Android 4.9 kernel with Sailfish X now04:12
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r0kk3rzwhich device?08:35
tortoisedocmartyone_ : is there somewhere documentation on how to use sb2-config-gcc-toolchain ?09:10
martyone_tortoisedoc: this is the only documentation on sb2 that I am aware of + source code09:12
tortoisedocmartyone_ : thanks, I have noticed a weird behaviour on gcc, when listing include paths09:12
tortoisedocecho | gcc -E -Wp,-v -09:13
tortoisedocreveals full-path directories09:13
tortoisedocas a consequence of that, my clang build cannot locate c++ headers properly (of the gcc 4.9.4)09:13
tortoisedoc(this in sb2 btw both in mer as well as vbox vm)09:13
martyone_tortoisedoc: try to explain more what is the issue with the paths09:19
tortoisedocmartyone_ :  I mean absolute (i.e. non-mapped) paths are listed by the echo | gcc -E -Wp,-v -09:20
tortoisedocfor example in a clean target (on mer platform sdk)09:21
tortoisedocgcc constructs the paths by default from the location of the gcc exe (from what I have seen up to now); the command line used to launch the gcc by sb2 refers to the absolute non-chrooted path in argv009:22
tortoisedoc(hence the command above constructs the paths relative to the non-mapped (chrooted) paths)09:25
martyone_but the paths are accessible both inside and outside of sb2 session09:25
tortoisedocclang is not happy tho09:26
tortoisedocmartyone_ do you know if this "path exposure" is intentional?09:29
tortoisedocperhaps the paths in question are accessible from bash but not other gates (stat's over all)09:31
martyone_tortoisedoc: do you mean that it appears as such in the gcc output or that the paths are accessible?09:32
martyone_the second is intentional afaik09:32
tortoisedocthat they appear in the gcc output :)09:32
martyone_that I cannot tell, but given the second it should not be an issue09:33
temp_duckzhi, I was reading the latest blog post and it feels like jolla is isolating itself more and more from its community11:20
temp_duckzit kind of feels like there is a lot of internal discord at jolla to me11:21
*** albertux1 is now known as albertux11:31
r0kk3rzwhat do you mean?11:41
temp_duckzr0kk3rz: they keep on pulling out features no one is asking for and they just ignore all and every request, plus there's not even James around anymore11:42
r0kk3rzjames is still around i think11:46
r0kk3rzand the features are for actual customers, like russia11:46
Smarsomeone should just give jolla infinite resources11:47
Smarit would be easier to do everything11:47
temp_duckzthe blog post is from James, but I haven't seen him around in the comments11:47
Smarand zillion versions for each user11:47
r0kk3rznot quite infinite, but the russian moneys has meant they expanded the team not that long ago11:47
temp_duckzr0kk3rz: what do you mean "actual customers"? are commenters on the blog (including myself) not actual customers?11:48
temp_duckzit could be my English is failing me, or maybe you could expand on that "no"?11:51
r0kk3rzjollas actual customers are companies, like OMP and Jalasoft11:51
temp_duckznever heard11:52
temp_duckzr0kk3rz: are you from jolla btw?11:52
r0kk3rzits really not that complicated, when 99% of your revenue comes from other businesses, you prioritise their interests first11:54
temp_duckzso let's say I second this idea of wanting some voip support in sfos, and let's say I'm not ditching my jolla phone: should I get in touch with OMP and Jalasoft then?11:54
r0kk3rzno, why would they want to talk to you?11:55
temp_duckzno idea, I'm just trying to figure out where certain issues should be raised11:56
r0kk3rzthe usual place11:56
r0kk3rzbut, if you're a jphone owner, then you've already got quite a bit of support out of Jolla already11:57
temp_duckzI mean, people have been asking for better bluetooth support, voip, gpg in email, paid apps in the store etc for years now, on tjc, blog, irc, diaspora11:57
r0kk3rzyeah, so?11:57
r0kk3rznobody said you get to dictate what jolla works on11:58
temp_duckzinstead we got a new (and ugly, imho) pull down menu, which I've never seen any request for11:58
temp_duckzso there's clearly a disconnect there, at least from my point of view11:58
r0kk3rzthe people who do get to dictate, are the ones paying jolla to make a product for them11:59
temp_duckzlol dictate? I mean, if I'm writing a program and my users ask for feature X and it's a popular request, then I try to do feature X12:00
r0kk3rzyeah, but its ultimately your choice12:00
temp_duckzit sounds like you're trying to say Jolla's community's always been an illusion12:01
r0kk3rzhow so?12:01
temp_duckzlike yes yes, knock yourself out posting stuff on tjc and blog and w/e, we're just not doing feature X because it's ultimately our choice12:01
r0kk3rzthere are simply competing interests at play, and as per usual the one with the most money wins12:01
r0kk3rztjc has always been that way12:02
r0kk3rzthere have been high profile items on there from the very beginning12:02
temp_duckzyep, routinely ignored12:02
temp_duckzI mean, I'm not the only one, if you go through the blog's comments people are wondering what the devs are working on12:03
r0kk3rzyeah, the last roadmap wasnt that great, and now most of the work is customer focussed and probably under NDA12:06
temp_duckzoh right, the roadmap for the roadmap joke :D12:07
temp_duckzmost of the work is customer focussed <-- I can't even start describing how disgusted I feel - so much for the open, inclusive, we-are-unlike BS then12:09
temp_duckzusers were never considered customers in the first place12:09
temp_duckzthe blog I-speak-but-I-don't-listen, even the store's "broken" commenting system... it all clicks in place in hindsight12:12
r0kk3rzorginally, when jolla made devices, sure people like you were customers12:18
r0kk3rzbut they shifted to a b2b model some time ago12:18
temp_duckzit sounds very childish... like as if you said hey from today on I'm the Eiffel Tower! and you expect that to really happen12:19
temp_duckzthe truth is you're still human and jolla still develops sfos12:19
r0kk3rzimo, i remember a couple of years ago when jolla ran out of investors and pissed off all their developers12:21
r0kk3rzeverything since then is basically gravy12:21
temp_duckzas such they should take care of implementing the features that are being requested, and as yourself recognised there *are* some high-profile requests on tjc12:21
r0kk3rzi dont begrudge them for focussing on the people paying their bills12:21
temp_duckzit just sounds like there's some "private club tjc" somewhere where those "actual customers" ask for what they want and tjc is just left there12:23
r0kk3rzyes, its called private negotiations, you tend to have them when conducting some business arrangement12:24
r0kk3rzif could get in on that, if you had a few millions to make a sailfish product12:25
temp_duckzso what's the point of having the public tjc still around? or even comments in the blog and in the app store? see what I mean when I say it's all an illusion?12:25
r0kk3rzidk, they probably forgot to turn it off12:26
r0kk3rzso i assume just intertia12:26
temp_duckzwhat can I say, if I'm just a non-customer that matters literally nothing to them then maybe my idea of going lineageos is not that bad12:28
temp_duckzit feels like I've been made a fool of, waiting for voip support in the next update when everyone else knew there would be no voip ever12:30
r0kk3rzcertainly i wouldnt be holding my breath for voip13:03
r0kk3rzi expect we would see VoLTE and VoWifi before13:03
temp_duckzr0kk3rz: what would the advantage be over xmpp's voice calls?14:28
r0kk3rzthey work with your carrier14:29
temp_duckzah right, so it's still a call to some phone number14:30
r0kk3rzthose features are quite important in developing countries, because they went straight to 4g only networks14:31
temp_duckzyeah well if that's who they want to sell to then go ahead, I certainly won't try to stop them14:32
temp_duckzit would just be more fair if they bothered enough to announce that, so people are not kept in this constant waiting process14:33
temp_duckzbut hey, glad I found out, better late than never I guess14:33
abransontemp_duckz: don't be too down on tjc - yes there are a lot of high profile issues that haven't been tackled yet, but plenty of problems do get solved through it. there's always a list of all tjc issues solved in every release.14:34
temp_duckzabranson: I wonder if it's not the same features that also happen to be requested by those "actual customers" that r0kk3rz was talking about14:35
abransonsometimes there's overlap, but have a look at the last list:
abransonsome very specific options there14:36
abransonand whatever you think about the responsiveness, it's a lot more engagement than you get from the bigger players on the mobile scene.14:37
r0kk3rzbugs and cves arent feature requests14:37
r0kk3rznaturally jolla should be somewhat responsive to bugs14:37
abransonok, but tjc is far from dead14:37
temp_duckzbug-stalled-pulley-in-all-apps, xperia-x-white-led-stuck-on-after-charging, bug-switching-ambience-triggers-constant-cpu-usage-on-voicecall-ui-process, bug-to-long-text-in-top-menu... it's all bugfixing basically14:38
abransonfeature requests just need a lot more planning and resources to undertake14:38
temp_duckzcan't see how anyone including Jalalalala wouldn't want those14:38
abransonspecific bugs like that are unlikely to be reported exactly by both14:39
abransonalso on many you can see the interactions with the devs14:39
temp_duckzabranson: if both jolla and lineageos will treat me as a worthless number in their stats then I'd rather go with lineage, at least I don't have to beg for proper xmpp support, offline maps and japanese input14:39
r0kk3rzwhats wrong with pure maps?14:40
r0kk3rzits betterer than jolla-maps ever was14:40
temp_duckznever heard of that one, I used to use modrana and jolla just broke it14:41
abransontemp_duckz: I don't see how you can seriously equate jolla and lineage tbh14:41
abransonlots of feature requests from tjc were on the sailfish3 upcoming feature lists14:41
abransonof course sailors are aware of what people want. lots of them are on these irc channels14:41
temp_duckzand no, I'm not going to enable openrepos14:42
temp_duckzabranson: I'm not equating them at all in fact14:42
abransonbut there's a world of difference between large US companies with billions of dollars and thousands of devs sloshing around, and a small company like jolla.14:42
temp_duckzyeah I'm sure that *not* breaking modrana was too expensive14:43
abransonand those large companies will take you up and make their money from you however they like, and downstreams like lineage don't have a lot of say in that14:43
r0kk3rzits up to m4rtink to fix his app14:44
leszektemp_duckz: no one breaks software on purpose14:44
temp_duckzespecially considering the billions of apps in the jolla store and no early access to the updates, there's no way they could've seen that coming right?14:44
abransonit'd be very expensive to support every previously unsupported api just because someone uses it. not to mention how messy that would end up.14:44
leszektemp_duckz: shit happens and nope I don't expect Jolla to fix bugs in my apps :P14:44
temp_duckzguys I had this discussion several times and I'm tired of it, we just lost offline maps and there are no other alternatives14:45
temp_duckzandroid can afford to do that because for every offline maps app they break there are 10 new ones popping up, jolla can't afford to do it because even their official maps app is borderline unusable14:46
temp_duckzwant to break modrana? fine, fix your maps app and no one would complain14:48
abransontemp_duckz: osm scout is worth a try.14:58
abransonthat sits behind pure maps, providing offline maps and routing14:59
temp_duckzabranson: yeah sorry that's the component that broke, not modrana... I keep on saying modrana and create confusion, my bad15:02
temp_duckzsee the comments to it in the jolla store15:02
temp_duckzor even this
abransontemp_duckz: ah yes, still ongoing that i'm afraid.15:13
temp_duckzno problem, I gave up at this point15:14
abransonone addition detail - blessing a component in the harbour is a long term commitment to supporting it. sometimes even longer than the upstream devs do. it's not done lightly.15:14
temp_duckznext salary /me gets a new phone ;)15:14
abransonthat stuff will come eventually15:14
abransonenjoy your new phone!15:15
temp_duckzI'm resharing this conversation btw, at least the first part I discussed with r0kk3rz (I'll redact your nickname)15:15
temp_duckzabranson: lol sure, not that I'm expecting much from an android phone but hey, thanks god I've got a monster laptop running gentoo15:41
abransontemp_duckz: maybe when that's getting old and/or annoying, sailfish will be further along. it's definitely picking up the pace this last year or so15:42
temp_duckzall I ask is really gps, email with pgp, voice calls (gsm and xmpp-like), sms15:42
temp_duckzjapanese input for sms/xmpp/line15:42
temp_duckzyep I'll keep an eye on the blog, I tend to keep phones for ~4 years usually, so there's plenty of time for improvements15:43
abransonfrom what I heard from someone on the telegram channel, VoLTE uses a lot of SIP-like functionality, so maybe that'll drop out of that15:43
abransonmaybe get something you can port later ;)15:43
abransonthere's been a lot of work in the community on email gpg support. that's quite exciting15:43
abransoni'm surprised there's no japanese input though. didn't know that wasn't there.15:44
MarzannaDoes anyone know whether built-in VPN client supports ipv6?16:07
r0kk3rzit should do16:07
MarzannaDo I need to enable it somehow?16:21
rinigustemp_duckz: osm scout server is pulled from store due to
rinigusalso pure maps is not in store due to inability to use qtlocation. qt5.9 update will probably bring qtlocation as a possibility, but, as far as I know from corresponding PR request in mer git, this will be without mapbox gl component due to the outdated gcc version in mer16:42
malrinigus: which gcc does mapbox gl need?16:45
temp_duckzrinigus: I know, that's the same link I put 7 months ago in my diaspora post (see my link above)16:47
temp_duckzabout pure maps, I don't know if it looks better than modrana or not, but it's fine, that's not the point - osmscout is gone and offline maps with it16:48
rinigusmal: good question. I am using gcc6. maybe something lower can handle it too16:51
rinigustemp_duckz: good, I didn't realize that link. let's see what will jolla figure out regarding systemd activation, that was in their plans16:52
rinigusmal: as far as I remember, c++14 was needed. from gcc page, looks like gcc 4.9 or 5 should do, but I haven't tested that16:54
malrinigus: ok, mer-core will get 4.9 soon(tm), the PR is there already16:54
rinigusmal: good to know, that may allow them to add mapbox as well17:22
alistair235[m]martyone_: On the Xperia XA217:36
alistair235[m]r0kk3rz: On the Xperia XA217:36
r0kk3rz[m]Oh nice17:55
alistair235[m]Yeah, I want to try a mainline kernel as well17:56
alistair235[m]But that will require more work17:56
Guest91658hey r0kk3rz, figured it out with the browser, reinstalled xulrunner and its working fine now17:57
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r0kk3rz[m]Wtf. .18:04
*** svartoyg is now known as svartoyg_afk19:43

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