Thursday, 2021-05-27

ViGerinigus: If you want to remove an app from Jolla Store, you should write to developer-care@jolla.com04:32
rinigusViGe: thanks. will do06:00
rubdos[ma]abranson: any chance that you get Rockpool 1.12 on OR?07:29
abryeah sorry. i was hoping to switch it to the new webview before I did, but that can wait07:30
rubdos[ma]/usr/bin/rockpoold: symbol lookup error: /usr/bin/rockpoold: undefined symbol: _ZN5mKCal16ExtendedCalendarC1ERKN9KDateTime4SpecE07:30
rubdos[ma]New webview, that is the webengine one then? Because that'd be awesome :p07:31
rubdos[ma]I almost missed a meeting yesterday because I didn't realize things didn't work :-D07:31
abrrubdos[ma]: uploaded!09:48
rubdos[ma]Updating, abr!09:49
abrfingers crossed. i removed the previous aarch64 package because the systemd service file was in the wrong place. a lot of people seem to be making that mistake.09:50
abrcan't believe my PTS is four years old already. and still going strong. fantastic thing.09:52
rubdos[ma]abr: watch doesn't seem to pair now. I'll reboot my phone11:51
rubdos[ma]I bought my PT second hand11:52
rubdos[ma]Wrt. systemd: what is the mistake we talk about? It should go in /usr/lib/ instead of /usr/lib64, right?11:52
rubdos[ma]${_execdir}/lib instead of _libdir11:53
rubdos[ma]reboot made Sailfish happy, but not yet rockpool :'-)11:54
rubdos[ma]restart of rockpoold helped11:55
rubdos[ma]back in business, thanks abr !!11:55
abr%{_userunitdir} is best I've heard12:00
abrglad i works12:00
* rubdos[ma] > <> %{_userunitdir} is best I've heard12:00
* rubdos[ma] takes note12:00
abrpeople were using %{_libdir} and it worked on everything before aarch6412:00
rubdos[ma]Made an issue for Whisperfish :-)12:01
rubdos[ma]abr: do you know how I activate the step counter/health tracking features? I know I had my watch show them, but after I had it reset a few months ago (year ago?), it stopped12:40
gavodavoDo you plan to switch from freenode to OFTC or Libera?12:45
gavodavoMaemo, for example, already moved:
gavodavoI see, ty12:51
piggzabr: any chance of you porting rockpool to amazfish ? :)13:10
abris that possible?13:10
piggzsure, just implement AbstractDevice for pebble13:11
piggzimplement the interface, it should all "just work"13:11
piggzat least for basic functionality ... all your webview app store wouldnt13:12
piggzat least, thats the theory13:12
abrmust be some stuff in common with it anyway? didn't you start from rockpool?13:13
*** gmc is now known as gmc_to_libera13:14
piggzno, i just stole the notification interception from it :)13:14
abrah right13:19
abrthat came from libwatchfish13:19
attahWow, Android apps under SFOS on the Xperia 10 II are suuuper smooth :)17:23
attahI Jinxed it! Spotify stalls playback after the first second or two :/17:30
bionade24attah: Because on the 10 II they're 64bit, not 32bit18:02
ol<gavodavo "Do you plan to switch from freen"> Let's use this opportunity to move to Matrix instead and let IRC die.18:02
bionade24ol: No, not matrix.18:03
olWAT? Why not Matrix? It's better than any other available alternative.18:04
bionade24Why do I need 2 platforms while Matrix users can join IRC channels very well. Also because the protocol is so unecessary complicated, most good clients are electron ;(18:04
piggzol: tried to chat with rinigus, and we couldnt get the sessions validated, and it wouldnt work ... im sure its secure, but its gotta be usable too!18:05
bionade24ol: Because IRC is an established platform many people here would need to have anyway, while Matrix users can join to here easily18:05
bionade24piggz: The spec is so fuc**n complicated that all people that understand it fully are employed by a new Vector venture capital company. Also Matrix has this badly designed "user active" feature18:06
bionade24IRC is not excluding Matrix users which don't want to use another platform. That's the main point.18:08
attahand good ol' spooter started working now18:08
ol<bionade24 "Why do I need 2 platforms while "> That's exactly what I'm talking about. No need 2 platforms when we can use just one: Matrix. Of course, bridging works, but it's annoying: all useful Matrix features (like replies, edits, markdown) look ugly on IRC side. And some of them (like access levels) don't work at all.18:10
attahol: ooops, sorry for ping xD18:11
bionade24ol: Ok just ignore the points I wrote down and cite then one only suiting your counterargument. But don't expect a reply then.18:13
ol<piggz "ol: tried to chat with rinigus, "> If you communicate on a public room, you don't need session validation at all. It's not strictly neessary even in encrypted rooms, you'll just see that some users are shown as not validated.18:13
ol<bionade24 "ol: Because IRC is an establishe"> Not so easily, actually. Many Matrix features don't work when bridged to IRC. Some work, but look ugly.18:22
ol<bionade24 "piggz: The spec is so fuc**n com"> Client-server spec is not so complicated. Of course, it's not as primitive as IRC one, because Matrix is about chat history synchronisation (as any messenger in XXI century should be), not about passing messages (and losing them you you have connectivity problems). Also, don't forget about end-to-end encryption and key management required for that. All these features are necessary for modern chat network.18:30
ol<bionade24 "IRC is not excluding Matrix user"> Using markdown, edits, replies, multi-line messages, inline pictures and videos, reactions and other modern chat features effectively exclude IRC users, even if they are bridged. So, every Matrix user faces tough dilemma: either use Matrix room in outdated IRC way, restricting themselves from using modern convenient features, of exclude IRC users from conversation. Not a very good choice.18:34
ol<bionade24 "ol: Ok just ignore the points I "> Sorry, but I don't understand what you're talking about. I believe that I've replied to all your points. Please let me know if I've missed something.18:35
olJust found on another bridged channel that the bridge does something even woese for multi-line messages: it just shows the first line, ignoring all other lines. But this is a different bridge, so I'm not sure if this happens here.18:57
Nico-old-defunctThe appsevice-irc bridge linkifies messages with more than 3 or 5 lines, iirc18:58
Nico-old-defunctSo no, this does not happen here18:58
Nico-old-defunctAlso, the spec is really not that complicated. I made 2 clients now. While they are very basic, that is mostly because I don't have time for the UI stuff, not because of the spec19:01
Nico-old-defunctIRC is only simpler, because it just doesn't define how a lot of the stuff works. Channel, nick, group management, etc is simply left to third party services, which makes every network behave differently19:02
Nico-old-defunctAnd with IRC you are dependent on your network operator for your community, while with Matrix you aren't. We have learned now, that this IS an issue19:02
paulvtReal, independent federation is just hard, also to make that user-friendly.. even more so for non-technical users19:03
paulvtIt is a work in progress that actually gets improved when people join it, get knowledgeable about it, spread it... not shun it, IMO19:03
Nico-old-defunctYes, but I would still say Matrix is more approachable for people today than IRC, especially if they are used to other chat services already.19:04
paulvtHeh yeah19:04
olOK, I took a look at IRC logs from URL mentioned in the channel's topic and found that parts of my replies were lost. For every multi-line reply, only the first line was sent, all other lines were lost.19:04
paulvtBasically the same with SMTP19:04
Nico-old-defunctol: that is to be expected, the replies include almost no context, because IRC users hate that19:05
Nico-old-defunctThey actually prefer a reply with just the username19:05
olAlso, some messages from IRC side don't reach me. For example, I don't see messages from Nico-old-defunct.19:06
Nico-old-defunctThat is me! D:19:06
olI'll try to restart my IRC bridge.19:08
olNico-old-defunct: Something fishy is happening here. Not only I don't see your messages, I don't see you in channel users list. Restart didn't help.19:12
olI can see your messages only on IRC logs page.19:13
Nico-old-defunctWell, I use the bridge :D19:13
olNico-old-defunct: bridge just screwed my replies on another channel by removing everything by the first line.19:18
Nico-old-defunctYeah, that is intentional19:18
Nico-old-defunctTo make IRC users happy19:18
inzIf you want to write a novel. chat is not the medium.19:19
olAnyway, briding IRC to Matrix is pain.19:19
ol<inz "If you want to write a novel. ch"> What about sharing snippets of code?19:19
Nico-old-defunctinz: No, but being able to post some context is usually useful19:20
inzol, there's better ways to share code snippets than filling everyones screens with them19:20
olThis looks great on Matrix side:19:21
ol#include <iostream>19:21
olint main() {19:21
ol    std::cout << "Hello, World!\n";19:21
ol    return 0;19:21
Nico-old-defunctWell, modern messengers autocollapse that stuff, but IRC can't19:21
ol<inz "ol, there's better ways to share"> I found no better way. Download links are much worse.19:21
Nico-old-defunctSo now you need to look for a pastebin service, which is not friendly for new users19:21
* ol uploaded an image: image.png (14KiB) < http://localhost:8008/_matrix/media/r0/download/ >19:23
inzThat link looks like it's gonna work19:23
olThis is not a link on Matrix side. I've posted a screenshot how it actually looks.19:24
Nico-old-defunctIn other bridges this works fine, but yours is misconfigured19:24
inzI personally just think that almost everything Matrix adds on top of IRC actually makes things worse19:25
inz(except maybe some offline messaging capabilities)19:25
Nico-old-defunctI like being able to post images and log files without an external service. If you prefer seing those as a link, you can just modify your client to do that :D19:26
inzYou can modify your client to show the links in-line, plz19:26
Nico-old-defunctNo, I can't19:27
olYou don't like normal replies (instead of mentions of nickname that lack context)? You don't like ability to fix a typo in your message? Well, for me these are must have features, I feel pain without them.19:27
Nico-old-defunctBecause then I need to whitelist all the sketchy sites people use, remove the adds, etc19:27
inzol, deleting messages is IMO the worst, editing is second wost. And replies is just a waste of space.19:28
ol<inz "You can modify your client to sh"> Again, these are *not* links. They are just converted to links by the bridge because IRC lacks these features.19:28
ol<inz "That link looks like it's gonna "> Fucking bridge. It can't even produce working links to pictures.19:30
inzMatrix becomes almost usable once you hide all the quoted parts of replies and use the IRC layout (and also hide all avatars)19:30
Nico-old-defunctI like deleting messages, because I don't want to see all the SPAM when scrolling through logs, like I do on IRC19:31
inzMaybe I'm on wrong IRC channels, but I do see very little spam19:32
inzIt could be I'm just that guy:
Nico-old-defunctWhen the libera stuff happened, there was a lot of spam in all the related channels19:35
inzSure, but not that much that I'd need to go rewriting history19:37
Nico-old-defunctWhat if someone posts a link with illegal stuff? I want to be able to delete stuff like that19:39
Nico-old-defunctOr if I by accident posted a big log file, that clutters the timeline19:39
inzThose can be important points for you, I just don't consider them to be worth the downsides.19:48
inzAgain, maybe I'm on wrong (or right, depending on how you look at it) channels..19:48
Nico-old-defunctWell, the problem is that most downsides for you, are upsides for me. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree :D19:49
inzI can live with that.19:49
inzReally my main issue with matrix is the total lack of reasonably featured clients (e2e, cross-signing etc) that don't eat your ram and cpu19:51
* Nico-old-defunct develops Nheko to fix that19:51
olinz (IRC): You want advanced features that use no memory or CPU?19:52
olAlso, how come that you want these features from Matrix, but not from IRC?19:53
inzol, cryptgraphy is not that advanced of a feature. It adds certain overhead, but shouldn't cost me an arm and a leg.19:54
inzol, also I don't want them from Matrix, I _need_ them (for reasons out of my hand) from a client19:54
Nico-old-defunctcrypto is actually somewhat heavy, if you do it right, since you need to store the keys for everyone in the room19:55
olinz (IRC): And it doesn't cost that much, actually. Cross-signing uses memory and CPU only for a brief period of time when cross-signing. Encryption uses memory and CPU only when sending messages. Decryption uses memory and CPU only when receiving messages. What's the problem?19:56
inzol, that's what I'm saying. They shouldn't force me to use a client that heavy19:57
olinz (IRC): You need them only if you join encrypted room. Neither of rooms bridged to IRC are encrypted.19:57
olinz (IRC): Heavy? What does it mean?19:57
Nico-old-defunctOnly Element is that heavy and most other clients are complete enough by now19:58
inzLast I tried, none I could find did the job.19:59
inzol, mostly heavy as in slow (even on a reasonably beefy laptop)20:00
olinz (IRC): None of clients I use are slow on my laptop with just 8G of memory. Try Element-Web or Nheko to see that they are not slow.20:02
inzI find element web slow20:03
Nico-old-defunctWell, element web is slow20:04
olinz (IRC): Slow in what regard?20:05
Nico-old-defunctIt takes 2 minutes to start for me, Nheko 5 seconds and I am trying to get to less than 1 :D20:05
inzol, like changing channels is noticably slow (even when the messages have already been decrypted)20:08
inzAnd checking a few channels makes the CPU fan whine20:08
olinz (IRC): Noticable delay doesn't mean that it's slow. It's slow only when it's annoyingly slow.20:09
olFor me, only initial sync is slow. And this is expected, nothing can be done about that.20:11
Nico-old-defunctinitial sync will be faster in the future too, but Element is too slow for me when switching rooms and it annoys me :D20:11
bionade24inz: Nico-old-defunct ol The core problem is that Matrix spec is complicated (to XMPP) on purpose so that Venture Capital New Vector LLC can make money out of it. And OLM/MEGOLM has flaws, too. They do this because of that reason: Complexity is a source of income in open source ecosystems20:13
bionade24That's why New Vector invented Matrix in first place instead making an XMPP system for all platforms. They could have even established their own crypto on top of it, but they reinvented the wheel because they need to make money for VC20:15
olOK, I've just switched multiple times between rooms in Element-Web on a laptop with 7th gen Intel Core i5 and 8G of memory. If a room is synced (only few new messages), switch happens in a fraction of second. Not slow at all.20:15
Nico-old-defunctbionade24: No, that is just wrong. I did a few protocol extensions myself. It is not complicated, so that NV makes money20:16
pketoI do appriciate the discussion, but it is slightly off-topic here :)20:16
Nico-old-defunctIf they just wanted to make money from XMPP, they could have done what Facebook, Google, Whatsapp, etc did20:17
Nico-old-defunctpketo: Right, sorry20:17
Nico-old-defunct(Although it does maybe make sense, considering what state Freenode is in right now... So understanding peoples gripes with protocols is useful to me at least.)20:18
inzMaybe we need a #sailfishos-offtopic20:18
ol<bionade24 "inz: Nico-old-defunct ol The cor"> Please stop spreading this conspiracy theory. If New Vector wanted to make money, they would not be building open federated protocol with open specs. They would make another Telegram instead.20:18
ol<bionade24 "That's why New Vector invented M"> No, the reason is that XMPP has outdated design based on message passing, not on chat synchronisation, and this initial design flaw can't be fixed with multiple of XEPs.20:20
bionade24ol: You just ignored my points and the link again and posted someting random, which is even debunked by my argument lol.20:20
ol<pketo "I do appriciate the discussion, "> Please consider this to be a discussion of (a) future of this channel and (b) future of mesaging in Sailfish OS. :-)20:20
Nico-old-defunctWell, I think we should stop, since we got told this is OT :320:21
pketool: yes, in that sense it is on topic20:27
ol<bionade24 "ol: You just ignored my points a"> You didn't provide arguments, just baseless accusations. You can't read minds of Matrix designers and know their true intetnions. The link you posted is not even about Matrix, it's about something around R ecosystem. There is no proof that it applies to Matrix at all.20:27
pketobut arguing over matrix protocol pros and cons probably does not help much in that area20:28
bionade24pketo: He just turns everything as likes to20:30
olI see complexity of Matrix C2S protocol to be a result of (a) more modern design (chat sync vs message passing), (b) rich feature set and (c) evolution of design over time that has to preserve compatibility with older clients. What I don't see is bad intentions or desire to make money.20:30
pketomore on topic question: what is the state of sailfish matrix client(s)? I have not been following those20:32
Nico-old-defunctMy client sucks :D20:33
Nico-old-defunctBut I'm trying to improve it very slowly20:33
Nico-old-defunctBut for basic stuff konheko and determinant are usable20:34
ol<pketo "but arguing over matrix protocol"> I understand your concerns. This discussion started originally as a discussion about where to migrate this channel after Freenode troubles. And discussion about Matrix vs IRC was just an organic following of this. If you think that it's not appropriate here, well, I can just stop here.20:34
ol<bionade24 "pketo: He just turns everything "> Sorry, but discussing my person and my behaviour is definitely offtopic here.20:34
pketoyeah, no worries, just try to keep it clean :)20:35
ol<pketo "more on topic question: what is "> So far, the most fully-featured Matrix client for Sailfish is Element-Android with Alien Dalvik. Not a good solution for those without Alien Dalvik, though.20:40
ol<pketo "yeah, no worries, just try to ke"> BTW, if this was a Matrix room, you (as moderator) would be able to just delete all offending messages. Just another point in favour of moving to Matrix.20:41
Nico-old-defunctI don't need that many features on my phone, just chatting in e2ee rooms, send media, notifications, etc20:42
Nico-old-defunctSo I need to implement a database and e2ee next in konheko :D20:42
olNico-old-defunct: Yes, I agree that encryption is the most needed feature at this moment. Can you use relevant code from Nheko for that?20:59
ol(Or should we move this discussion to instead of continuing it here?)21:00
Nico-old-defunctI mean, yes, I can reuse code from Nheko, but it is still some effort :321:02
Nico-old-defunctNo need to discuss this21:02
Nico-old-defunctI just need to properly use the sailfish crypto plugin21:02
Nico-old-defunctAnyway, about the freenode stuff, oftc is quite comfy :321:36
Nico-old-defunctAlso, I liked the Kvarken pun :321:39
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: The Sailfish Crypto/SecretStorage API is very C-Style, the first thing I wrote was a wrapper :D21:40
Nico-old-defunctIs that wrapper available somewhere?21:41
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: Idk why they did this when they have to write it in diffrent style for the QML API anyway.21:42
Nico-old-defunctMe neither :321:42
Nico-old-defunctMaybe easier to keep a stable ABI?21:42
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: It's only for the Secrets, I didn't need crypto.
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: That's a valid point, I guess.21:44
bionade24But then I'd wish they would have done it in C directly. Then I'd written a python library for it.21:44
Nico-old-defunctLooks good, thanks21:45
Nico-old-defunctI guess their API is pretty similar to the QtKeychain one?21:45
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: Don't know the QtKeychain API, only libsecret gobject implementation. And it has an object-oriented style.21:46
Nico-old-defunctWell, I need to implement that soonish, I guess21:47
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: TIL qtkeychain isn't from TQC. But it's not similar to the Sailfish API, it's designed to be non-blocking21:52
Nico-old-defunctMhm, I guess21:53
bionade24Nico-old-defunct: gn821:56
Nico-old-defunctgn8 :321:57

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