15:00:01 <tbr> #startmeeting Additional meeting - open source & Jolla - 2014-12-02T15:00 UTC
15:00:01 <Merbot> Meeting started Tue Dec  2 15:00:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is tbr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
15:00:01 <Merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:06 <tbr> #info Welcome to this special installment of the Jolla community meetings!
15:00:06 <tbr> #info Today's topic is a continuation of last weeks discussion on Jolla's relationship with open source. Last week we ran out of time and decided to give this topic range a meeting of its own, to have the time and emphasize its importance.
15:00:10 <tbr> #topic Brief introductions and setting the stage (5 min), prefix your information with #info
15:00:19 <locusf> #info Aleksi Suomalainen, community
15:00:21 <ryukafalz> #info Jonathan Frederickson, community member
15:00:27 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member
15:00:31 <tbr> #info Thomas Ruecker - community member, today just the meeting chair
15:00:38 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, community sailor, Sailfish for Everyone (Android devices)
15:00:42 <Stskeeps> #info Carsten Munk, Chief Research Engineer @ Jolla
15:00:43 <tadzik> #info tadzik, community member, programmer
15:00:46 <anandrkris> #info Anand Radhakrishnan, Jolla user from India, Community member
15:00:56 <daitheflu> #info François Kubler, community member, dev-wannabe (FR)
15:00:58 <stephg> #info Steph Gosling, community member
15:01:01 <tbr> The agenda for today is:
15:01:01 <tbr> 1. Introductions and setting the stage 5 min
15:01:01 <tbr> 2. The way forward together; A modus operandi for Jolla and the open source community to collaborate. 30 min - based on @DiosDelRayo 's answer
15:01:04 <tbr> 3. open sourcing sailfishOS parts - planning the road ahead and bringing more transparency to the process 30 min - based on @Tofe 's answer
15:01:06 <M4rtinK_jolla_> Martin Kolman, modRana developer, community member
15:01:06 <shfit> #info Stephan Hagen, community sailor sailing along
15:01:07 <tbr> 4. Jolla and OSS - a public manifesto(?) outside private blogs, IRC and TJC? 15 min - based on @anandrkris ' answer
15:01:10 <tbr> 5. beyond EOL - how could a hand-off to community look like? 5 min - based on @shellkr 's answer
15:01:13 <tbr> 6. Wrap up, loose ends, do we need another meeting? 10 min
15:01:16 <tbr> 90 minutes in total
15:01:24 <Lehning> #info Tobias Lehning, community member, sweden
15:01:27 <tbr> shfit: jolla employee then?
15:01:30 <harha> #info Harri Hakulinen, Chief Engineer @ Jolla
15:01:35 <daitheflu> M4rtinK_jolla_: prefix with #info ;)
15:01:44 <deztruct1r> #info Denis Zalevskiy, Jolla, engineer
15:01:47 <OSIMasson> #info GM Open Source Initiative
15:01:48 <giucam> #info Giulio Camuffo, software developer at Jolla
15:01:51 <M4rtinK_jolla_> #info Martin Kolman, modRana developer, community member
15:01:54 <sandsmark> #info Martin Sandsmark, community member, Norway
15:01:56 <iekku> #info Iekku Pylkk�, sailor @ Jolla
15:02:01 <dirkvl> #info Dirk van Leersum, head of Funkiness at FunkyOH and TOHKBD
15:02:03 <VDVsx> #info Val�rio, Sailor @ Jolla, mostly listening
15:02:36 <kimmoli> #info Kimmo Lindholm, TOH-tailor, community member
15:02:38 <DiosDelRayo> #info Thorsten Kaiser, new community member, france
15:02:44 <Jare> #info Jarkko Lehtoranta, sw developer @ Jolla
15:02:52 <shfit> tbr: nope, just community
15:02:57 <tbr> ok, just checking
15:03:12 <tbr> #info Jolla sailors are voiced for visibility
15:03:17 <webmink> #info Simon Phipps (guest at meeting), OSI President
15:03:37 <schmittlauch> #info Trolli Schmittlauch, community member, user, maybe future dev
15:03:38 <tbr> welcome webmink :)
15:03:49 <tbr> Practicalities:
15:03:50 <tbr> This is a topic that tends to attract very heated debate - stay civil, discuss , don't give in to fallacies.
15:03:53 <tbr> I have OP and am not afraid to use it, so don't tempt me.
15:03:53 <Stskeeps> o/ to OSIMasson and webmink, glad to see OSI representing here
15:03:55 <tbr> I will introduce topics briefly and open the floor.
15:03:58 <tbr> I will continue to steer the debate and summarize things, but feel free to #info yourself too.
15:04:01 <tbr> As meeting chair, I have no right to take sides and I won't.
15:04:03 <tbr> I reserve the right though, to nudge _both_ sides to advance the discussion, after all that's what a moderator does. This includes being devil's advocate.
15:04:17 <OSIMasson> Stskeeps: Thx
15:04:21 <webmink> Stskeeps: Thanks, aiming to listen as much as possible
15:04:24 <lbt_> #info David Greaves, Sailor and Mer guy
15:04:35 <tbr> 30s
15:05:04 <tbr> #topic A modus operandi for Jolla and the open source community, to work toward a more open source SailfishOS.
15:05:16 <tbr> I've noticed misunderstandings and misconceptions on both sides. There is a lot to learn and even more to gain from this relationship.
15:05:19 <tbr> I suggest to look at how both sides can help each other. Jolla could use some help in some parts of SailfishOS, while on the other hand the open source community could use a hand in navigating and understanding the open source components and the system architecture.
15:05:23 <tbr> I've seen repeatedly requests to "open" something that has been open for long.
15:05:26 <tbr> I've also seen how not everyone in Jolla understands open source, and how Jolla built its success on it.
15:05:29 <tbr> the floor is now open
15:05:45 <qwazix> #info Michael Demetriou, community, sorry for being late
15:05:45 <Stskeeps> (for DiosDelRayo initially i presume?)
15:06:06 <tbr> if DiosDelRayo has things to add right now
15:06:16 <tbr> otherwise the floor is open for discussion
15:06:41 <tbr> (it's a slight difference to the regular meetings where people who proposed the topic must introduce it)
15:06:43 <tadzik> I think there's a difference in how sides understand open-source: for some it's "there's code there somewhere", others expect open development
15:06:52 <DiosDelRayo> Okay, I have still no real overview about the hole and contrary informations on some things
15:07:22 <tadzik> sailfishOS is there in the open, published every now and then, but there are also parts of this and that in github, where people can easily track progress and contribute to it
15:07:33 <DiosDelRayo> but i can't find any sources to things like the mesage api, email-client....
15:07:49 <Stskeeps> (FWIW, i'll be representing and talking from Jolla POV today, just to make that clear..)
15:07:50 <tadzik> Jolla itself (correct me if I'm wrong) reffered to publishing some of SFOS components to github as "opensourcing them"
15:08:09 <tbr> I think what tadzik says represents a common problem. people do not understand the extent what is open source in SailfishOS
15:08:09 <ryukafalz> DiosDelRayo: The messaging system is under nemomobile and open source, the message UI is not (for example)
15:08:12 <jmlich> The open source is also about inclusion of contribution of others. We have created an localization for Jolla, but we cannot get it there.. )-;
15:08:24 <webmink> tadzik: OSI is clear that the term "open source" should only be applied to software that is all licensed under one or more OSI-approved licenses. Other aspects of openness, such as open development, are not mandatory.
15:09:06 <tbr> yes, and that is a gap in expectations
15:09:11 <ryukafalz> This maybe falls under one of the other topics, but I think it would be good to have a list of packages and where the relevant sources can be found
15:09:12 <tadzik> then there's also the fact that sailfish itself is open, but some of the apps that people deem integral parts are not
15:09:25 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: so, a general primer about sailfishos: when we open source, we usually work in the public git repositories subsequently, which are usually under the mer and nemo hats. I agree that it's really difficult to find the sources when needed and that's why we've worked on moving everything open source under one hat/repository organisation
15:09:26 <ryukafalz> possibly in the wiki
15:09:28 <tadzik> so the OS is open, but the mediaplayer isn't, for instance
15:09:30 <DiosDelRayo> I bought Jolla because when I took my decision to stop using the Apple universe and neither switch to the Google univers, because the Jolla page made see me the hole stuff is OS
15:09:39 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: this is what we typically talk about as mer-nemo merge in previous meetings
15:09:40 <tadzik> often the first thing you want to contribute to turns out to be closed
15:09:43 <tbr> Inside jolla you can wonderfully see how open source and everything else falls into place and how things develop, but from the outside there might be not much visible and a feeling of being left out
15:10:11 <tbr> also from the inside you see much better how jolla contributes to and works intensely with open source community
15:10:11 <Stskeeps> and as i said last time around, there's open source and there's open development and we agree we haven't been good enough at being open on the parts that are factually today open
15:10:11 <schmittlauch> The middleware being open is sometimes just partly useful as a closed UI doesn't allow close integration of new services/backends (e.g. new chat services into the nemomobile messaging system)
15:10:20 <ryukafalz> tbr: That is largely the feeling, yes, as community members we don't have that insight
15:10:31 <tbr> so what can the community do to gain that insight?
15:10:37 <tbr> how can jolla help?
15:11:05 <Stskeeps> jmlich: got us there - we really want to get the community localization going and integrated into our processes but we're not there yet
15:11:16 <webmink> tbr: The fact https://sailfishos.org/about-license.html does not declare an open source license for the collective work is problematic, as is the use of a EULA that cannot be compatible with open source at http://jolla.com/sailfish-eula/
15:11:20 <Stskeeps> i'm even contributing to danish translations myself, as an example, all hands are needed
15:12:04 <anandrkris> just to add, after tablet's promotion as open source, there have been numerous post on TJC complaining / ranting about open-source policy
15:12:24 <tbr> anandrkris: that was covered last week though
15:12:29 <tadzik> I think many people see opensource more ideologically than technically
15:12:39 <tadzik> technically open is different than "accepting contributions" or whatnot
15:12:50 <shfit> tadzik: +1
15:13:03 <tbr> tadzik: so, what do you expect from jolla?
15:13:05 <tadzik> and for most open source projects out there you expect something like that
15:13:22 <webmink> tbr: Second, the earlier marketing issues around open source association have left some crowdfunders feeling deceived and associating it with open source. That also concerns OSI.
15:13:23 <lbt> I'd like to point out that open-source often means working with upstream - so there's a lot of scattering by nature
15:13:39 <tadzik> tbr: I'd perceive it as more "open source" if the development process was visible from outside world and easy to contribute to
15:13:48 <schmittlauch> Apropos accepting contributions: afaik there are some patches for patchmanager  released under public domain, would jolla be willing to adopt them?
15:13:54 <Tofe> tadzik: from my POV, being able to fix myself a small glitch in my phone is something that comes first, before the possibilty to send that fix somewhere upstream
15:13:56 <daitheflu> #info <+Stskeeps> (FWIW, i'll be representing and talking from Jolla POV today, just to make that clear..)
15:13:56 <ryukafalz> tbr: At this stage I'm not sure. It's difficult, because obviously we can't see Jolla's day to day operations.
15:14:01 <tbr> webmink: yes, but I will have to insist to stick to not revisit last weeks discussed topics
15:14:09 <ilpianista> Tofe: +1
15:14:19 <tadzik> I'm aware, as webmink says, that it's not technically what the term "open source" means; I'm looking more at the apparent meaning it acquired and has to many people
15:14:25 <Aard> tadzik: we're currently working on moving the planning of all public components to mer-bugzilla; I guess once that's in place it'll add a lot more visibility, and make it easier for outsiders to contribute
15:14:26 <tadzik> especially people who are on the angry side here, I suppose
15:14:30 <webmink> tbr: Understood on second point. First point was not covered to my memory.
15:14:48 <locusf> Aard: great!
15:15:05 <tadzik> Aard: that's fantastic news :)
15:15:12 <OSIMasson> tbr: would it be possible for you to share with the OSI the outcomes of last week's meeting regarding the use of open source in the marketing and promotion of the Jolla Tablet and SailfishOS?
15:15:19 <Stskeeps> as a general thing: we at jolla originate from open source, we believe strongly in it, but as also said in last meeting, we have to be sustainable to keep several tens of developers contributing and participating in open source
15:15:29 <tbr> OSIMasson: it was in this weeks invitation under mandatory reading
15:15:31 <OSIMasson> tbr: Sorry we missed that meeting
15:15:37 <tbr> OSIMasson: http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-11-25-15.00.log.html#l-215
15:15:45 <OSIMasson> tbr: thank you!
15:15:49 <Aard> tadzik: we've been working on that for a very long time now, problem is that it required a lot of infrastructure development to make it work. we're now finally getting clote to the point where we can test the new infrastructure, and if that works as expected, move those parts to mer bugzilla
15:15:56 <tbr> OSIMasson: no need to be sorry, I just need to make most out of limited time
15:16:15 <tadzik> Aard: I see
15:16:32 <Stskeeps> (can somebody raise their hand if they feel their topic hasn't been addressed yet?)
15:16:33 <DiosDelRayo> It's really easy. I bought Jolla because I will have my device under control, because I can change things which anoy me. I was really shocked after I purchased a Jolla for almost 400€ and have seen it's not this way. I calmend down and was thinking/hoping with the time it will be. So I supported Jolla with a tablet perk. Then It seems to me another time that it not looks like that Jolla will fullfill that promise.
15:16:58 <deztruct1r> tadzik: imo, free/open source sw implies ability to modify the sw installed on your system. You are talking about open process
15:16:59 <tadzik> Aard: I always assumed that the reason why Jolla doesn't just put anything in the open is to limit the SNR inside its internal development process
15:17:11 * webmink raises hand WRT http://jolla.com/sailfish-eula/ and https://sailfishos.org/about-license.html
15:17:24 <tbr> OSIMasson / webmink: please note I'm not a jolla employee. outside of this meeting I'm on the community side and very concerned. today I need to steer this to get a good way forward and be impartial.
15:17:27 <Aard> tadzik: at least for the work planning on open components it was simple lack of resources for a small company like us
15:17:41 <tadzik> Aard: right
15:17:44 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: you appear to be concerned about the fact that jolla is not 100% opensource?
15:17:45 <webmink> tbr: Understood
15:17:46 <DiosDelRayo> If you tell me, let's say we will end up ing 15 months in a open system. I can accept it.
15:17:47 <Aard> so we've used spare resources over the last year to eventually get there
15:17:57 <tbr> webmink: I'll take that EULA topic under the manifesto part (it sort of fits there)
15:18:26 <Yaniel> DiosDelRayo: well then, what defines an "open system" to you?
15:18:27 <DiosDelRayo> I will invest a huge amount of work in SailfishOS, unpaid.
15:18:28 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: we certainly want to be more open source than we are, but at same time: being open source also means that if it has to work, to have open development: this means involvement from design, as a thing
15:18:32 <phdeswer> DiosDelRayo: in which way do you feel you don't control your device?
15:18:35 <DiosDelRayo> I don't want to waste my time
15:18:43 <tadzik> question: can you compile your own version of sailfishOS and flash it onto Jolla?
15:18:50 <lbt> tadzik: no
15:18:55 <tadzik> there, part of the problem
15:18:57 <Stskeeps> so one thing we're doing is trying to be more open development about what's already open, because without open development, collaboration is really hard
15:19:03 <tadzik> I believe some people would expect that from an open system
15:19:04 <webmink> tbr: Thanks. IMO https://sailfishos.org/about-license.html is the key dividing line. Once that's an OSI-approved collective work license it's then OK to work through the open development issues incrementally
15:19:14 <tadzik> (I'm sort of trying to read DiosDelRayo's mind here, bear with me)
15:19:18 * lbt proposes Jolla addresses the 100% open issue
15:19:28 <DiosDelRayo> open for me means I have all to compile and flash my device so that I can change things if nobody changes something or nobody is more intrested in my devie
15:19:32 <Stskeeps> i've done that partially in the previous meeting, re 100% open issue
15:19:46 <Stskeeps> hardware adaptation is the huge problem in mobile industry that not even google has been able to solve
15:19:49 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: that will be covered a bit more in the second part
15:20:04 <kwolf> Stskeeps: The problem is that the open parts are somewhere in the middle of stack, which makes it harder to hack on them than if you could start at the things that you're actually seeing (i.e. the apps)
15:20:04 <schmittlauch> DiosDelRayo So open in a non-lockdown way? This isn't covered by GPLv2 but by v3
15:20:09 <Stskeeps> kwolf: that is correct
15:20:27 <tbr> In this part of the meeting I want us to focus on the larger picture of how will jolla and the community work together
15:20:28 <DiosDelRayo> Stskeeps: hardware adaption I can undestand
15:20:29 <tadzik> kwolf: +1
15:20:35 <schmittlauch> kwolf: +1
15:20:36 <lbt> kwolf: Almost all middleware is exposed via Qt APIs
15:20:46 <lbt> and of course that's 100% open
15:20:54 <Stskeeps> if i may interject something: the very hard of doing sailfishos has been the middleware, not the ui
15:20:58 <qwazix> I'd like to add the issue of "murky waters" too
15:21:10 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: Hardware adaptation is understandably closed, that is the case on Android as well. Regarding UI, are the concerns primarily trademark/UI design related?
15:21:11 <tbr> qwazix: clarify?
15:21:11 <DiosDelRayo> but i could life with some blobs only available through get it from the device. because we not living in a perfect world
15:21:11 <lbt> so any contributions to Qt go right into SailfishOS API area
15:21:34 <Stskeeps> making good ui is easy, if you know enough QML, making good and performant middleware is really really hard
15:21:35 <qwazix> Stuff like it's not open but we won't go after you with lawyers if you distribute SFOS images
15:21:41 <lbt> ryukafalz: most apps use Qt APIs to access the middleware
15:22:04 <qwazix> Because one day, this can change 180 degrees and many people be liable
15:22:07 <kwolf> lbt: Yes, but that's rather indirect. The things that bother me are missing features or bugs in the apps. That's the things that I'd really want to fix.
15:22:17 <tbr> qwazix: I thought that was covered by HADK mostly?
15:22:26 <anandrkris> From Jolla POV, want to understand if reservations for making some components open is due to code quality from developers?
15:22:27 <qwazix> It certainly happened before, and acquisitions aren't rare
15:22:34 <Stskeeps> anandrkris: no, we have awesome coders.. :P
15:22:35 <anandrkris> rather not being sync with design vision of Jolla
15:22:43 <qwazix> tbr, it's not only that. Patch manager is another example
15:22:47 <Aard> kwolf: our apps are mostly building on open nemo qml components -- if the open qml components support it it's usually rather trivial to add it to the apps as well (given there's a design)
15:22:48 <kwolf> You can probably fix some things in the middleware and they actually magically start working in the apps. But you don't know exactly how the apps use the interfaces.
15:22:53 <lbt> kwolf: that goes back to the design issues
15:22:56 <M4rtinK_jolla_> yeah - that goes against the 'scratch your own itch' methodology
15:23:02 <tbr> qwazix: ah, but that's proprietary code...
15:23:12 <M4rtinK_jolla_> ifvthe given component is closed
15:23:13 <Stskeeps> anandrkris: it comes down to that we don't have a terribly lot of leverage, if you read my previous meeting statements
15:23:18 <Tofe> Stskeeps: I understand when you say that having open-source without open development not worth it, but seeing the community reaction, don't you think the intermediate step may be, after all, interesting for the users ?
15:23:18 <qwazix> tar, custom keyboards too
15:23:24 <Stskeeps> Tofe: of course
15:23:32 <Stskeeps> Tofe: but i've tried open source where you hit a wall when contributing
15:23:34 <Stskeeps> it's not very nice
15:23:37 <DiosDelRayo> Stskeeps: the problem starts where you want modify parts of the system, like different action from a right slide in the main screen, integration of xmpp+otr or TextSecure in the messenger....
15:23:48 <qwazix> tbr ^^
15:24:11 <lbt> also remember that this is still the start of a journey - it may seem like we've come a long way ... but there is a long, long way to go still
15:24:19 <kwolf> Aard: But with the apps closed, is it something that I can do on my own? (If so, documentation please!)
15:24:24 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: and as a part of that we're also supporting people to do things with for example patchmanager
15:24:29 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: While it's true that the middleware is the hard part, the fact that the Silica component APIs differ from other component APIs mean that you would have to rewrite the QML side for each application to avoid using Silica.
15:24:32 <Stskeeps> that we can't easily accept those contributions atm is the problem
15:24:34 <tbr> I'd like to suggest that we look at the journey towards Sailfish 2.0
15:24:43 <tbr> There is a lot to be done and it can be done together
15:24:52 <tbr> for the benefit of open source and jolla, both
15:25:01 <tbr> we have about 10min left in this topic
15:25:02 <Stskeeps> tbr: good point
15:25:07 <Stskeeps> it's a very different project in many ways
15:25:14 <tbr> I suggest we focus on this now
15:25:16 <tadzik> it is?
15:25:20 <Aard> kwolf: in most cases not the full integration into the apps ui, but getting it to a state where it's reasonably small effort for us to be convinced to add it (which is not ideal, I know).
15:25:34 <tadzik> can't speak for the others, but I'd be very interesting in hearing how diffent it is :)
15:25:46 * ryukafalz agrees
15:25:51 <Stskeeps> because it's meant from scratch up to be designed and developed together with the contributors
15:26:02 <tadzik> \o/
15:26:03 <locusf> wow
15:26:14 <Stskeeps> that may be a bit broad statement, fwiw, so don't read that much into it
15:26:15 <kwolf> Aard: So essentially I'm expected to write an alternative UI for development and then you put it into the real thing?
15:26:17 <Stskeeps> but
15:26:20 <tbr> Stskeeps: tell us how you see this happening from the status quo forward
15:26:20 <tadzik> does that imply it's developed from scratch?
15:26:27 <tadzik> or the roadmap to 2.0 starts with opening it all up
15:27:05 <Stskeeps> we don't have that much yet. a lot of things will be us properly coming to the outside, discuss, talk, see what features make sense, etc..
15:27:13 <Stskeeps> it's a dream at the moment, as marc said
15:27:34 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: If we want to keep tabs on Sailfish 2.0 development, where is the best place to be?
15:27:37 <Lehning> a nice dream ;)
15:27:54 <dirkvl> is this one of those statements that we will have a meeting about later?
15:27:57 <ryukafalz> sailfish-devel mailing list?
15:28:26 <tbr> Stskeeps: so how does the community help, as it will further their wish for engagement and participation and open sourcing and opennness
15:28:38 <tbr> 7 minutes
15:28:40 <DiosDelRayo> Stskeeps: back to my question, is there a plan to open everything what is possible? And in which timeframe?
15:29:04 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: i can only say that opening things is subject to a number of variables and promising is hard. we do what we can.
15:29:17 <schmittlauch_> Are there any issues with opening up some Sailfish code because of Jolla not having all rights on it? If yes, could these be avoided in Sailfish 2.0?
15:29:19 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: next topic, wait please
15:29:32 <lbt> FWIW #sailfishos-porters area is one area we're "designing and developed together" ... the HA approach for HADK and such like
15:29:40 <tbr> schmittlauch_: same
15:29:58 <Stskeeps> tbr: in practice you don't want to put down skeletons already now; you'll want to work and engage with a community; having good reasons for why something should be opened always helpe
15:30:02 <Stskeeps> d
15:30:13 <Stskeeps> skeletons down for how things should be done, that is
15:30:20 <wickwire> what about harbour.jolla.com? I volunteered last month, for free, to help fix reviews/developer replies
15:30:25 <tbr> Stskeeps: sure, but how does the community stay on top of this topic
15:30:39 <Stskeeps> tbr: through indiegogo campaign, together.* as a start, i presume
15:30:51 <lbt> and irc chan
15:30:53 <wickwire> I noticed however that work has been done to it in order to have at least the stats
15:30:53 <lbt> s
15:31:00 <tbr> Stskeeps: I guess many people will be underwhelmed by that perspective
15:31:25 <Stskeeps> tbr: just giving starting points on where there'd be information, not limiting it to that
15:31:49 <tbr> I hoped to have at least something tangible out of those 30min, but seems not
15:31:54 <tbr> from neither side really
15:32:11 <anandrkris> even on components that're open-sourced, do we have ready list of what needs to be done from Jolla perspective?
15:32:25 <Stskeeps> anandrkris: that's part of for example the bugzilla story aard was talking about
15:32:26 <ryukafalz> tbr: I think the topic was maybe not as focused as it should have been
15:32:33 <anandrkris> some sort of task list - where community can pitch in and help...
15:32:39 <Stskeeps> it's a very wide topic. but at least from my own perspective, i want to do my part surrounding sailfish 2.0 and tablet as transparent as i can
15:32:40 <anandrkris> Stskeeps: okies
15:32:40 <tbr> ryukafalz: yes, I agree, it drifted apart.
15:32:42 <DiosDelRayo> Stskeeps: I use my Jolla daily, I am almost happy with my decision, but I suffer because things go slowly and I can't change it.
15:32:46 <iekku> wickwire, i'm thankful for your offer, but at that point we weren't able to offer tools for helping
15:32:55 <Tofe> tbr: I think we can smoothly move on to the next topic, which is the natural continuity of that discussion anyway
15:33:01 <Stskeeps> one thing that's lacking today is understanding how to build devices with primarily open source in them today, in practice
15:33:05 <Stskeeps> many projects have failed
15:33:14 <iekku> wickwire, it would need more work from our side than fixing
15:33:15 <tbr> Tofe: yes, do you want to bring some statement at the beginning?
15:33:23 <Lehning> how many of you are using jolla as main phone atm?
15:33:39 <wickwire> iekku: I'm sorry to hear it, while understandable, because it is a valuable tool
15:33:43 <giucam> anandrkris: why do you need a list? i'd presume if you want to work on something you have a scratch to itch already
15:33:46 * ryukafalz is using Sailfish (but not Jolla) as his primary phone
15:33:47 <wickwire> since apps are being dropped in the Store
15:33:47 <Tofe> tbr: I can can simply repeat my wish for this topic
15:34:05 <tbr> Tofe: I'll intro some things, see if you want to add something
15:34:10 <Tofe> ok
15:34:11 <tbr> I'll be closing
15:34:14 <Stskeeps> and i also think instead of talking about open we should focus on -being- open..
15:34:34 <tbr> t-30s
15:34:36 <tadzik> Stskeeps: is there an agreement that jolla considers open development as part of being Truly Open[tm]?
15:34:39 * DiosDelRayo is using Jolla every day, unfortunatly only 20% of the time I used my iPhone before :S
15:34:53 <M4rtinK_jolla_> yes, that will be a nice change of pace :)
15:35:01 <tbr> #info open sourcing sailfishOS components - planning the road ahead and bringing issues to light
15:35:05 <tbr> gna
15:35:07 <tbr> #undo
15:35:07 <Merbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x7922950>
15:35:10 <MeegoBit> wouldn't a contributor guidelines be enough to define what'd be acceptable
15:35:14 <tbr> #topic open sourcing sailfishOS components - planning the road ahead and bringing issues to light
15:35:26 <tbr> There are many reasons why a certain part of SailfishOS might not be open sourced at the current point in time.
15:35:29 <tbr> Is a table and a probability scale going to help set the right expectations?
15:35:35 <tbr> Can Jolla be more transparent on this or does the NDA red tape spread through all issues even if they are not directly affected? If not, should the community consciously go ahead without Jolla's cooperation?
15:36:22 <ryukafalz> The NDA thing is potentially troubling, as any NDAs might also prohibit disclosure of the agreements themselves
15:36:28 <Tofe> I think a part of the frustration comes simply from the fact that we are not aware of the constraints of Jolla
15:36:30 <MeegoBit> I believe the community is bursting with people wanting to help, if only Jolla would open the code, and tell us what's acceptable for them
15:36:47 <ryukafalz> Tofe++
15:37:33 <MeegoBit> there's a lot of simple bugs and small feature-requests hanging, that could easily be contributed
15:37:42 <tbr> but does the community understand what's open?
15:37:44 <Stskeeps> so, as i was saying in last meeting, the reason why some things are not open source at the moment, is because of variables in the current situation of things.. the real problem here is that if we started assigning probabilities it'd also show what those variables are, and indeed, sometimes those are murky and dark parts of the mobile world
15:38:03 <giucam> MeegoBit: are you talking about the ui or the middleware?
15:38:06 <tbr> I often hear "mimimi, bug in this that" which is not in the UI, but somewhere in the middleware which is open
15:38:09 <phdeswer> MeegoBit: welll you could already start with the things that are open... And I guess if you make a pull request it is easier to discuss what is acceptable and what not.
15:38:09 <MeegoBit> ui mainly
15:38:14 <shfit> MeegoBit:+1
15:38:44 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: Rather than probabilities, maybe having a list of packages with any blockers that might prohibit open sourcing, such as NDAs
15:38:51 <ryukafalz> if that is possible
15:38:51 <MeegoBit> but people want to scratch their itch, what does it matter that some part is open, if it's not the part that people feel the need to contribute and improve
15:39:02 <Stskeeps> ryukafalz: there was such a thing in maemo.org but it didn't always work to the intent you'd think
15:39:05 <tbr> ryukafalz: if an NDA blocks, they will respond with silence
15:39:06 <kwolf> tbr: Then we need documentation on how to find the responsible middleware code and how to contribute to it
15:39:15 <tbr> ryukafalz: just like last week we had nice 5min silence
15:39:25 <lbt> the problem with the UI is that it is tightly managed by our design team
15:39:26 <Stskeeps> yeah.. the thing about NDAs is that they usually forbid talking about the NDA, like fight club..
15:39:47 <lbt> Jolla also does work on upcoming projects which cannot be discussed in public
15:39:56 <tbr> Stskeeps: kwolf's statement, how do you tackle this?
15:40:04 <Stskeeps> tbr: can i get a quick repeat?
15:40:05 <tbr> this is about architecture after all
15:40:06 <lbt> so those aspects really limit what can be opened from a commercial PoV
15:40:11 <tbr> 39:06< kwolf> tbr: Then we need documentation on how to find the responsible middleware code and how to contribute to it
15:40:12 <VDVsx> MeegoBit, so far haven't see much contributions to browser for example, bit disappointing...
15:40:15 <MeegoBit> well than maybe the design should adopt a little more of an open-source attitude, with a Jolla governance of course
15:40:15 <DiosDelRayo> Jolla is #unlike, they have not 1000 developer, not billions of dollars capital, and they are very new against almost all platforms. I think the need thir customers to help them to be happy. but support goes ever in two directions, also it is with trust
15:40:29 <Aard> kwolf: middleware code documentation not there is partially my fault, partially again missing infrastructure
15:40:30 <phdeswer> MeegoBit: most often I see people don't know what is open and most of the UI that is "closed" can be changed anyway. See patchmanager for example
15:40:41 <Stskeeps> MeegoBit: they do, actually .. did you know one of our designers has a really nice blog?
15:40:55 <tbr> Can a mer wiki page help here?
15:41:00 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: Well there is currently one on maemo.org for... I think it's Fremantle? In any case, I found it recently, and I like that it's there.
15:41:07 <tbr> seriously, Stskeeps had the image last week
15:41:12 <tbr> make a list, there is a LOT
15:41:22 <ryukafalz> It helps avoid certain things being forgotten
15:41:23 <Stskeeps> kwolf: finding responsible middleware code is a problem, and yes, documentation and such
15:41:25 <tbr> start documenting the components
15:41:36 <Stskeeps> and generally answering questions when 'where do i find this thing'
15:41:38 <Yaniel> one thing a lot of people seem to be missing is some kind of opensource section on jolla.com that would tell what is open and where
15:41:40 <Stskeeps> it's all spread out currently, also code
15:41:40 <tbr> Stskeeps: if jolla is unable, maybe the community should?
15:41:46 <webmink> Stskeeps:  I observe that uncertainty and opacity are the two Dread Killers of community. Stating "some things are closed, but we can't say what, and we can't say why" is certain to harm...
15:41:54 <kwolf> Aard: The first problem is actually not understanding the code, but finding the right repository. The topmost layer is closed, so I can't just dig through. I need to know from somewhere else what parts are accessed.
15:41:55 <Aard> we're currently waiting for autodoc to be available on mer, that should make a lot of documentation discoverable
15:41:59 <giucam> kwolf: as a start, ask in #sailfishos. many sailors hang there who can possibly answer
15:42:15 <M4rtinK_jolla_> well, people wanting to tweak for their own usecase might not really care about designers :)
15:42:21 <phdeswer> or #jollamobile, or #nemomobile
15:42:23 <Stskeeps> webmink: we can say what and we quite often do.. :) but not the why
15:42:30 <MeegoBit> patchmanager is a nice example of how currently it sucks to change things
15:42:33 <lbt> #info lbt will work on Mer autodoc to avoid becoming a minion of Aard
15:42:37 <Aard> kwolf: documentation should go on autodoc, and some overview pointing you to the right places gluing it together from me, deployed to autodoc as well
15:42:42 <Stskeeps> tbr: i think we as responsible maintainers should be doing more than we are
15:42:47 <ryukafalz> tbr: I agree with a mer wiki page for this. If I can find the time I will step up and give it an attempt.
15:42:51 <kwolf> Aard: Sounds good, thanks
15:43:03 <Stskeeps> and that's also why we want to get things gathered together and unified better
15:43:08 <tbr> Stskeeps: yes, but you fail, I see the community should just step in and do your job of documenting the architecture for you.
15:43:11 <M4rtinK_jolla_> and all people will never be OK with just a single design anyway
15:43:14 <tbr> Stskeeps: admit defeat by overload
15:43:21 <webmink> Stskeeps: Not even by broad category, like "do not own copyright", "implements interface covered by NDA" etc?
15:43:22 <tbr> sorry, being evil on purpose
15:43:26 * ryukafalz read that as "overlord"
15:43:27 <MeegoBit> patchmanager is a hacks manager, unstable by definition, unmanageable with the updates
15:43:43 <lbt> as another general info .. Mer infra is much improved : webhooks for all, gitlab, obs, image building, automation all recently updated
15:43:47 <MeegoBit> fortunately we haven't had many updates ;)
15:44:14 <ryukafalz> webmink: I'd imagine some they could probably disclose, but NDAs are tricky
15:44:20 <qwazix> that's why I mentioned murky waters before. Patch manager is sold as if it's a good thing
15:44:20 <giucam> tbr: i don't think jolla owns mer or nemo, so i don't think the burden of documentation falls on jolla only
15:44:27 <M4rtinK_jolla_> lbt: huge +1 for OBS
15:44:34 <tadzik> qwazix: +1
15:44:46 <tadzik> patchmanager imho is an indication that something went wrong
15:44:48 <tbr> giucam: jolla keeps holding people back though
15:44:49 <Stskeeps> webmink: it's a bees nest sometimes, but i understand the thought there, we really try to explain at least what parts it belongs in and why
15:44:57 <Stskeeps> tbr: fair, if you can't do something, delegate
15:44:57 <MeegoBit> tadzik: +1
15:45:00 <tbr> giucam: "don't do this, we will have magic autodocs soon™"
15:45:00 <Stskeeps> tbr: a good principle
15:45:11 <lbt> giucam: no, the community should be doing that too ..... :D
15:45:16 <tbr> giucam: nobody knows when soon will be as they don't have access to jolla Bugzilla
15:45:19 <M4rtinK_jolla_> tbr : +1
15:45:19 <phdeswer> Well if your contribution or change is not acceptable, you will end up anyway in a patchmanager/build and install your own version on each update situation anyway.
15:45:33 <Aard> tbr: point is, most of the documentation is already there in the packages on github. it's just not visible due to missing autodoc
15:45:41 <Aard> so you'd spend time redoing something that's already there
15:45:44 <tbr> Aard: but that's per package
15:45:45 <Stskeeps> webmink: part of this is that to fully understand the reasons, or even overview, you need to understand the framework in how we operate as well, which last meeting was a start
15:45:49 <tadzik> from jolla's side, was there any thought about adopting some of patches from patchmanager into sfos?
15:45:53 <tbr> Aard: I sorely miss the BIG picture
15:46:00 <tadzik> like dbus support for mediaplayer, which is also a TJC issue
15:46:06 <tadzik> (which links to the patch in question)
15:46:32 <qwazix> IANAL but isn't the mere use of patchmanager copyright violation? Not to mention writing patches.
15:46:33 <tbr> Stskeeps: so, how can the community help?
15:46:34 * DiosDelRayo wish I could read and write faster :(
15:46:58 <Stskeeps> tbr: when it comes to something like autodoc, prod for example lbt to help with mer infrastructure in that area
15:47:00 <MeegoBit> important missing parts to be opened are APIs like contacts, and messages, and such, so that people can extend, or replace the default apps
15:47:05 <Aard> qwazix: we intentionally did not compile most of the qml into resources for having it easier to mess around with it.
15:47:09 <phdeswer> Well the documentation is mostly part of the upstream projects. I don't understand why Jolla should do all the documentation?
15:47:10 <M4rtinK_jolla_> what about primarily opensourcing stuf that has popular RFEs on together thah Jolla has no capacity to implement?
15:47:15 <phdeswer> tadzik: on tjc I have seen at least one case where that happened
15:47:24 <lbt> this is a jolla meeting (despite the channel) - at some point I'd suggest the Mer community discuss how they want Jolla to behave on the Mer BZ. nazanin may be able to help there.
15:47:24 <tadzik> phdeswer: where jolla picked the patch up?
15:47:25 <qwazix> Aard, I know that but I still don't feel ok with this.
15:47:27 <M4rtinK_jolla_> could be also a good community benchmark
15:47:36 <ryukafalz> MeegoBit: Messaging API is open, it's Telepathy with a few (OSS) components on top
15:47:44 * lbt points Stskeeps tbr and Aard at the #info above ^^^
15:47:47 <webmink> Stskeeps:  For my sins I have a pretty good grasp of your market, prior employer and (less but still OK) current business. Could help privately if that's interesting :-)
15:47:51 <qwazix> Having regedit doesn't make me feel comfy in Windows either
15:47:59 <phdeswer> tadzik: afaik it was tjc
15:48:00 <tbr> phdeswer: all architecture documentation that publicly exists is a picture on sailfishos.org - how does upstream solve that?
15:48:10 <MeegoBit> ryukafalz: so why is it so difficult to support otr, for instance
15:48:23 <Tofe> So, for the UI for example, open-sourcing comes with open development, the latter comes with big spending resource and time, because the design needs to be consistent. But then, what would be the first step? -- if the long term intent is, of course, to open-source it.
15:48:24 <lbt> #info this is a jolla meeting (despite the channel) - at some point I'd suggest the Mer community discuss how they want Jolla to behave on the Mer BZ. nazanin may be able to help there.
15:48:49 <lbt> (just forgot the #info)
15:49:02 <ryukafalz> MeegoBit: Support for OTR is being implemented in upstream Telepathy. Once this is done it shouldn't be too hard to integrate into Sailfish, however we would also need an open UI or a replacement for the existing one.
15:49:14 <DiosDelRayo> ryukafalz: and you can access the ui for messaging?
15:49:29 <tbr> I'd like to push again the topic of an overview of ALL components and their descriptions, I doubt very much that #MER autodoc will provide this
15:49:29 <Stskeeps> tbr: a very valid question
15:49:46 <MeegoBit> there should be a flexibility in the platform to be able to replace the default UI with other community supported tweaked versions, that could serve has testbed for new official features even
15:49:54 <tbr> I think this is something where the community should take action
15:49:55 <webmink> tbr: +1
15:49:57 <ryukafalz> DiosDelRayo: No - he was asking specifically about messaging API rather than UI
15:50:01 <Stskeeps> MeegoBit: well, there is, people put glacier on top of jolla stack..
15:50:05 <MeegoBit> ryukafalz: upstream telepathy already supports OTR
15:50:13 <tbr> it's not just about moaning about openness, there is already a lot open, learn about it! document it!
15:50:14 <qwazix> plug: come to help finish Glacier :P
15:50:23 <tbr> and also document the closed things
15:50:29 <ryukafalz> MeegoBit: Ah, I haven't been following it too closely
15:50:29 <locusf> Stskeeps: +1
15:50:31 <Aard> tbr: I've been delaying working on the internal architecture documentation until mer is there; only thing I did so far was preparing a split into things I can publish, ind things I can't publish. once there is autodoc I'll push it there
15:50:39 <lbt> tbr: I think we can do something in Mer to do that up to the Qt level at least
15:50:47 * ryukafalz doesn't want to miss this topic but needs to head to his next class
15:50:47 <MeegoBit> ryukafalz: exactly
15:51:03 <tbr> lbt: yes, but the community needs to get their act together on this one. stop whining do something
15:51:05 <Stskeeps> https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Architecture - old hat stuff as well
15:51:22 <DiosDelRayo> ryukafalz: but what I helps to do half work and let this rot later?
15:51:24 <tbr> lbt: of course jolla needs to help them understand things as they know also mer better than anyone
15:51:25 <lbt> Stskeeps: closed tool
15:51:26 <Stskeeps> i do want to appreciate how much help we've gotten to get mer+nemo stack going with gcc4.8
15:51:41 <Stskeeps> lbt: closed tool, but freeware, though.. and java... :(
15:51:51 <MeegoBit> qwazix: the problem with glacier in my view is that it's a complete reimplementation, even Silica is not used, but worked around
15:52:01 <tbr> agile browser produces nice pictures. how does that help to dive deeper?
15:52:12 <Stskeeps> helps understand interdependencies
15:52:15 <qwazix> MeegoBit, that's the point of it, clones were never my strong point
15:52:18 <Stskeeps> i spent a lot of time to get to that understanding
15:52:20 <tbr> Stskeeps: so it's just one bit
15:52:23 <Stskeeps> yes
15:52:25 <qwazix> no creativity in cloning
15:52:50 <M4rtinK_jolla_> anothet QML component set
15:52:51 <MeegoBit> qwazix: at list it is a definite positive contribution to the improvement on openness
15:52:51 <Stskeeps> tbr: how many minutes left?
15:53:00 <tbr> so, who from the community volunteers for the architecture documentation? tadzik you were so loud about things...
15:53:04 <tbr> Stskeeps: 12
15:53:07 <Stskeeps> good
15:53:13 <qwazix> MeegoBit, yes, I sure hope so
15:53:14 <M4rtinK_jolla_> yet another roadblick for multi platform QML apps...
15:53:16 <tbr> I'm going to give this a twist in a minute
15:53:24 <M4rtinK_jolla_> *roadblock
15:53:26 <tadzik> tbr: well, I'd happily do it if I understood how it works
15:53:38 <lbt> that would be 'research' :D
15:53:45 <Stskeeps> i do want to appreciate how much help we've gotten to get mer+nemo stack going with gcc4.8, for example
15:53:46 <tbr> #action tadzik to lead the community side of architecture documentation on mer wiki
15:53:51 <phdeswer> Which you always need to do.
15:53:56 <Stskeeps> er.. that was a repeat
15:53:59 <tbr> #action Jolla sailors to support him and the community
15:54:11 <tadzik> am I picked to volunteer? :D
15:54:15 <lbt> yup
15:54:16 <tbr> yes
15:54:19 <locusf> lol
15:54:22 <lainwir3d> +1
15:54:22 <tadzik> heh, fairy nuff
15:54:30 <tbr> the community also needs to get their act together
15:54:39 <tbr> today I kick both sides where it hurts
15:54:47 <iekku> tadzik, that's what happens when you open your mouth ;) but it would be nice if you can help
15:54:47 <DiosDelRayo> :)
15:54:54 <tadzik> (that'll teach me to keep my mouth shut)
15:54:56 <daitheflu> tbr: +1
15:55:03 <tbr> 10 minutes
15:55:08 <Stskeeps> we're all here and we're really happy to listen, enable you to do contributions and work together
15:55:16 <Stskeeps> though we blend into community quite a bit
15:55:17 <MeegoBit> tbr: I believe the community is dying to contribute, just needs guidance from Jolla on howto
15:55:18 <tbr> so, let's open a can of worms here:
15:55:35 <tbr> MeegoBit: I don't see them! at all! I only see whining
15:55:55 <DiosDelRayo> I will do, but there are big stones in my front
15:55:57 <tadzik> fair point
15:55:57 <tbr> Discuss:   Should the community resort to building drop in replacements for proprietary Jolla components? This could be based on Nemo mobile, which is already closely related.
15:56:01 <MeegoBit> tbr: because of lack of guidance from Jolla on saying what's doable, what not
15:56:13 <locusf> tbr: +100000
15:56:13 <lbt> tadzik: I think we should look at adding metadata to packages to support both autodoc and architecture information
15:56:15 <tbr> MeegoBit: not an excuse
15:56:19 <phdeswer> MeegoBit: you don't need that. Why? Do your thing.
15:56:33 <MeegoBit> It's hard without the code
15:56:39 <tadzik> lbt: okay, I'm now counting you as a part of my Architecture Documentation Team
15:56:45 <lbt> tadzik:+1
15:56:47 <tadzik> awesome
15:56:56 <tbr> so if jolla refuses or silently refuses to open things (like message ui), should the community just go and replace them with something open?
15:57:08 <Stskeeps> let's start out with a simple principle: you can always ask how to do thing X to us
15:57:12 <lbt> MeegoBit: so ... as step 1 why don't you document the apps and their state from a community PoV?
15:57:13 <locusf> we would really like a lot of help on Nemo Mobile, its quite much a single man effort these days
15:57:17 <lbt> tbr: action? ^^
15:57:25 <tbr> lbt: on which one?
15:57:33 <phdeswer> MeegoBit: and actually document the bits that are not open that block you.
15:57:35 <locusf> there are application which use the same middleware but they are quite ancient and need updating
15:57:40 <webmink> tbr: I'd guess that as a motivation for not saying clearly what's closed and why, cynical old guy that I am
15:57:43 <Stskeeps> it may be that we'll say that okay, this needs to be done in what's today closed source.. or that 'add it in this config file in the middleware'
15:57:46 <locusf> you don't necessarily need to use Glacier components on this
15:57:48 <lbt> tbr: MeegoBit: so ... as step 1 why don't you document the apps and their state from a community PoV?
15:57:50 <Aard> lbt: we have a graph api in reports tool, we did some enhancements to that for architecture documentation dependency graphs
15:57:59 <DiosDelRayo> but how should I get a picture from my system Stskeeps? Should I ask you 10h what I want to know? I think you have already enough to do
15:58:00 <Stskeeps> or 'add it in this open source component'
15:58:06 <lbt> Aard: good < tadzik
15:58:18 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: i consider it part of my job but yes, helping to contribute to documentation at same time is a good thing
15:58:19 <qwazix> to play the devils advocate, users would have to live with a disjointed ui until Glacier is complete
15:58:37 <locusf> qwazix: yep
15:58:37 <lbt> #info Architecture Documentation to start work in #mer
15:58:40 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: ie, help dump the brains of jolla sailors and get it shared, in irc logs, in wikis
15:58:42 <MeegoBit> I'm lacking the time, but do appreciate the acknowledgment that tha's one of the bigger parts that's been missing
15:59:00 <lbt> MeegoBit: but you had time to code?
15:59:04 <qwazix> if Glacier is to be deemed the only future where a fully-to-the-extent-possible open stack exists
15:59:04 <phdeswer> DiosDelRayo: just do what you would do if you want to change something in $favourite_linux_distro
15:59:09 <locusf> so we do have a open stack
15:59:13 <tbr> Stskeeps: wikis, irc scrolls away
15:59:16 <Stskeeps> yes
15:59:21 <locusf> qwazix: +1
15:59:21 <tbr> (yes you can search logs, but meh)
15:59:27 <MeegoBit> lbt: barely
15:59:35 <tbr> T-5min
15:59:48 <locusf> ok I guess tbr's discussion is not to the topic, meh
15:59:49 <anandrkris> Can we have some sort of FAQ & Wiki on Jolla's opensource principles?
16:00:01 <Stskeeps> (isn't that a later topic? or this one?)
16:00:10 <Stskeeps> the best communities i've been in has been the ones where they start out by one person teaching another who then could help and train others to help
16:00:10 * iekku wants to remind that there's already open apps for contribution, like browser
16:00:12 <tbr> locusf: still valuable things going on
16:00:14 <DiosDelRayo> phdeswer: but there is the source opne ;)
16:00:19 <qwazix> tbh if Jolla said we'll never opensource apps, it would be more beneficial to the community than the current state
16:00:21 <locusf> tbr: yup
16:00:26 * anandrkris Forgot T-5 is for this topic!
16:00:31 <tbr> #info Map what is open and how to use it! how? wiki? community? jolla input? carsten and aleksi's listings? would benefit also mer and nemo
16:00:32 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: where should we ask how to do thing X ? a central point would be better IMHO
16:00:38 <lbt> ah : [02/12/2014 15:18] <DiosDelRayo> I will invest a huge amount of work in SailfishOS, unpaid. << volunteer for the app list ???
16:00:40 <Stskeeps> daitheflu: #sailfishos
16:00:43 <MeegoBit> qwazix: +1
16:00:47 <Stskeeps> or mailing list, sailfish-devel
16:00:48 <phdeswer> DiosDelRayo: but there is no architecture doc etc. And afaik you really need to go take a look at what is closed in Jolla as it is not much.,
16:00:48 <tbr> that was in my pipeline, just info'd it
16:01:19 <Stskeeps> we really are here and want to talk, i personally love to discuss and explain things..
16:01:22 <Stskeeps> :P
16:01:25 * lbt +1's Stskeeps teaching point
16:01:30 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: would you take the task of documenting the open/closed bits on a wiki page?
16:01:33 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: let's chose one :)
16:01:47 <M4rtinK_jolla_> qwazix: yeah, gives a starting point
16:01:52 <locusf> there is a way to install this open stack for Jolla but I have to make sure with Jolla that its ok to share the instructions on this
16:01:53 <Stskeeps> re designer blog earlier
16:02:17 <Stskeeps> http://jaakkoroppola.blogspot.fi/ , a personal blog, though
16:02:18 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: and then a small team of volunteers could feed a wiki with this information
16:02:18 <DiosDelRayo> lbt: first plan is to develop an open push system and TextSecure for SailfishOS
16:02:24 <M4rtinK_jolla_> qwazix: even though it is quite a waste of effort on both sides :)
16:02:38 <qwazix> M4rtinK_jolla_, true
16:02:50 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: time slicing? Begin the process at least?
16:02:54 <tbr> T-2min
16:02:56 <ryukafalz> tbr: If I can find the time, I will take this task - I'm a full time student however so my time is limited
16:03:05 <phdeswer> locusf: I don't think we mind those instructions.
16:03:12 <tbr> #action ryukafalz to work with DiosDelRayo on a table of open and closed components. touches on tadzik's task and relates to previous info
16:03:16 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: quite often we need to prioritise stuff that enables others :)
16:03:16 <DiosDelRayo> tbr: I still trying to figure out from where I get my information :S
16:03:32 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: I can point you at what I info'd later
16:03:33 <phdeswer> DiosDelRayo: same as everywhere else. Google and ask
16:03:37 <MeegoBit> I'm opening a poll on tjc about: what's open and what's missing in the apps openess from the community's point of view, to meet you half way
16:03:43 <DiosDelRayo> tbr: al I would find I would also document
16:03:57 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: mer wiki page together with ryukafalz
16:04:00 <tbr> T-1min
16:04:15 * tbr is happy, much more productive topic
16:04:26 <tbr> any last words?
16:04:26 <lbt> tbr: so we also have browser, documents and more already open
16:04:38 <lbt> have we looked at contributions there?
16:04:44 <Stskeeps> (+ browser designs)
16:04:55 <Stskeeps> though somebody earlier said, a central place to figure out these things would be good..
16:04:55 <locusf> + some hardware adaptation packages like gst and stuff
16:04:59 <lbt> and something in messaging plugins ?
16:05:17 <tbr> #topic Jolla and OSS - a public manifesto(?) outside private blogs and TJC?
16:05:17 <VDVsx> if people contribute to already open probably could be used as argument to open more, but so far....
16:05:19 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: yep, a central point would be great
16:05:29 <lbt> tbr: I think we see a lot of actual contributions in low level areas - so it makes sense to focus there - hence HADK
16:05:29 <tbr> Jolla has a lot of marketing material that addresses the ordinary consumer. Prominently absent is a clarification of Jolla's relationship to the open source community in clear and non PR language. Something akin to earlier TJC posting on open sourcing policy and last weeks paste by Stskeeps, but as part of Jolla's official public facing presence.
16:05:39 <lbt> too slow
16:05:46 * Stskeeps gives lbt fiber
16:05:52 <tbr> lbt: still, moar visibility, wiki pages (like hadk)
16:06:10 <Stskeeps> tbr: totally agreed, we can be a lot better at gathering everything we've said around the place into a whole
16:06:31 <tbr> as a related topic I'll ad as homework: * webmink raises hand WRT http://jolla.com/sailfish-eula/ and https://sailfishos.org/about-license.html
16:06:44 <DiosDelRayo> so I will work on wiki.sailfishos.org, I got it right?
16:06:50 * webmink deletes what he was typing
16:06:52 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: merproject
16:06:55 <Yaniel> Stskeeps: I think it would be important that the "central place" to start from be jolla.com
16:07:06 <ryukafalz> DiosDelRayo: https://wiki.merproject.org/
16:07:14 <Yaniel> as it is now, jolla.com feels way too detached from what is actually going on
16:07:20 <OSIMasson> tbr: I would also hop Jolla marketing can move on changing the indiegogo and Jolla Tablet pages per your notes from last week and previous statement here
16:07:20 <qwazix> Yaniel, +1
16:07:25 <tbr> #action Jolla to clarify their open source statements and put them together on jolla.com
16:07:28 <daitheflu> Yaniel: +1
16:07:28 <Stskeeps> i'm a little confused about the EULA issue, but i'm not a lawyer. one of our lawyers is the kind of person who does creative commons licensed NDAs, so it seems odd.
16:07:29 <anandrkris> also details / examples on collaboration with other open source communities would help...
16:07:31 <Stskeeps> i'll bring it up.
16:07:38 <tbr> OSIMasson: partly happened already
16:07:40 <sledges> agreed, there is no link to HADK from jolla.com
16:07:44 <Stskeeps> anandrkris: qt, calligra, systemd, libhybris/ubuntu touch, ...
16:07:51 <tbr> OSIMasson: thankfully very short channels and a big clue by 4 in my hand
16:07:54 <anandrkris> yes, kde
16:08:16 <shibby> OSIMasson, +1
16:08:33 <anandrkris> am asking it to be added somewhere (official) to paint right picture to community
16:08:37 <tbr> #action jolla to look into webmink's remarks about http://jolla.com/sailfish-eula/ and https://sailfishos.org/about-license.html
16:08:58 <DiosDelRayo> i think it's really unhappy to put the documentation about sailfishos on mer, put the parts about mer also there would be better imho
16:09:12 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: well, sailfishos is in many ways a shiny ui
16:09:18 <Stskeeps> the real architectural meat is in mer
16:09:39 <ryukafalz> There's info about Plasma Active in mer wiki as well - it covers lots of things
16:09:46 <shibby> Stskeeps, it's probably already covered, but making it as easy as possible to see the license the work is under wuold be a great start. After digging and digging, I was unsuccessful. A EULA != OSI approved license IMO
16:09:48 <DiosDelRayo> so all what is on my  Jolla I can find on mer?
16:09:50 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: mer wiki is where the community works
16:09:57 <Stskeeps> shibby: rpm -q --info?
16:09:58 <webmink> Outsider question:  I have not been able to find a contribution policy (and CLA etc if there is one) -- can anyone give me a pointer?
16:10:13 <ryukafalz> DiosDelRayo: Not the Sailfish bits - that's what we need to do ;)
16:10:14 <Stskeeps> webmink: we don't use copyright transfer if that's what you mean
16:10:27 <tbr> shibby: there is an action already
16:10:28 <Stskeeps> signed-off-by is what's used in mer, in practice
16:10:36 <shibby> tbr - thanks
16:10:38 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: the mer project has a policy to allow downstreams to piggyback on the infra if they like
16:10:43 <webmink> Stskeeps: Certainly one question, yes. How about a DCO?
16:10:52 <tadzik> DiosDelRayo: that's one thing that I hope my new projects will tell you :)
16:11:00 <tadzik> s/projects/project/
16:11:21 <webmink> Stskeeps: DCO, right.  Is that policy documented? It's a key item I look for.
16:11:35 <Stskeeps> webmink: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution ish
16:11:45 <Stskeeps> that is a bit old page.
16:11:57 <daitheflu> just put a link to the mer wiki on Jolla website then ?
16:11:58 <DiosDelRayo> I was on the way to try to port plasma active on a lg tablet but there is also a documentation mess
16:12:51 <webmink> Stskeeps: Thanks, just what I was looking for.
16:12:52 <DiosDelRayo> i could not figure out till today if you can use with libhybris cm11, even it should be oviuos because sailfishos on nexus 5
16:13:01 <tbr> T-7min
16:13:13 <anandrkris> How about a planetjolla.com?
16:13:19 <tbr> anandrkris: exists
16:13:24 <DiosDelRayo> sorry was off topic
16:13:26 <Stskeeps> http://planet.devaamo.fi/sailfish/
16:13:47 <sledges> DiosDelRayo: #sailfishos-porters
16:13:52 <anandrkris> thanks (embarrassed)
16:13:52 <tbr> anandrkris: http://planet.devaamo.fi/sailfish/ - new links welcome
16:14:01 <tbr> anandrkris: it's not very well known
16:14:26 <anandrkris> some not in English :-(
16:14:35 <Tofe> tbr: it's mostly in finnish, wannabe hardest language of the world, that why :)
16:14:39 <tbr> anandrkris: yes, but that's typical planet stuff
16:14:42 <DiosDelRayo> thx sledges, but it's terrible to look for info on irc :S
16:14:43 <Stskeeps> webmink: regarding ideas there's a bit different approach (on sailfishos level), but that's not about code. when we work in open, we utilize open source methods/licenses
16:14:46 <webmink> Stskeeps: To be clear, does that policy apply to all parts of Sailfish?
16:14:57 <tbr> Tofe: depends on time of the year
16:15:03 <sledges> DiosDelRayo: check channel's topics
16:15:05 <tbr> Tofe: it used to be predominantly english
16:15:14 <Tofe> tbr: ok, didn't know
16:15:15 <MeegoBit> lbt: here it is - https://together.jolla.com/question/68182/whats-open-and-whats-not-in-saillfish-apps-from-a-community-point-of-view/
16:15:18 <Stskeeps> webmink: well, if you go into detail we'll ask you to contribute to upstream of a packaged project..
16:15:29 <tbr> Tofe: gimme more english sailfish blogs...
16:15:34 <Stskeeps> webmink: and as you know, gcc has different contribution policies than for example systemd
16:15:41 * anandrkris if sailfish-office is open, why we dont see an editor yet :-P
16:15:58 <Stskeeps> webmink: mer is sometimes a collection of software and a lot of mini projects
16:16:17 <SK_work> anandrkris: no interest :(
16:16:35 <MeegoBit> hope it proves helpfull to the whole openness question, focusing the community
16:16:36 <tbr> maybe also lack of visibility that there could be one?
16:16:40 <mhall119> anandrkris: because you haven't written one yet? :)
16:17:11 <anandrkris> hehe, if i could i would :-( (not a developer here)
16:17:22 <Stskeeps> i can really encourage to learn QML. it's easy.
16:17:33 <Tofe> Stskeeps: +1 :)
16:17:35 <Stskeeps> you won't be an expert initially, but you'll get a hang of it really quickly.
16:17:36 <mhall119> that's an understatement
16:17:39 <anandrkris> can i log issues in GH for open components?
16:17:43 * ryukafalz will be learning QML as part of another project
16:17:52 <tbr> if there is nothing in the topic at hand I'll cut over
16:17:57 <SK_work> anandrkris: yes, it is already done for Sailfish Browser
16:18:04 <tbr> 3
16:18:07 <tbr> 2
16:18:10 <anandrkris> SK_work: great
16:18:10 <tbr> 1
16:18:14 <tbr> #topic beyond EOL - how could a hand-off to community look like? 5 min
16:18:27 <MeegoBit> nice topic
16:18:27 <Stskeeps> well, that's a pretty good question
16:18:32 <tbr> This is mostly hypothetical, as the jolla phone is in full support right now
16:18:38 <tbr> but at some point it will happen
16:18:41 <tbr> also to the tablet
16:18:42 <Stskeeps> sailfishos is one code line with multiple hardware adaptations
16:18:47 <tbr> so, how would it look like?
16:18:51 <qwazix> like Nokia did :P
16:19:01 * qwazix hopes not
16:19:06 <ryukafalz> qwazix: Nokia did it poorly :P
16:19:10 <SK_work> qwazix: ie: gives everything ?
16:19:17 <Stskeeps> so it ideally, would be down to hardware adaptation related matters
16:19:31 <qwazix> dumped shit on people, I was just being sarcastic
16:19:39 <Stskeeps> as we also make hardware adaptation methods available..
16:19:44 <tbr> what happens if jolla wants to introduce systemd3.0 that requires kernel 4.2?
16:20:00 <Stskeeps> tbr: we've already done this, kinda, with n9, which was never officially supported though
16:20:03 <tbr> qwazix: shhh, language
16:20:09 <tbr> Stskeeps: that's why I bring it up
16:20:24 <Stskeeps> people sprung into action and actually upgraded the kernel.. but it's a really really tough topic
16:20:28 <webmink> Remember that changing from proprietary licensing to open source licensing can be expensive; the company has to be sure it has the necessary rights, and gaining that certainty involves paying expensive professionals. So it is uncommon for proprietary code to be made open source at EOL; it has to happen before EOL.
16:20:37 <qwazix> tbr, sorry
16:20:47 <Stskeeps> yes.. and sometimes it may be that it's 3rd party bits from an ODM
16:20:50 <SK_work> what worries me is the HAL bits
16:20:52 <DiosDelRayo> what happens in case jolla have no more intresst in the jolla phone or simply jolla would die - what i don't hope and also try to help to avoid, but what would happen with the phone?
16:20:53 <Stskeeps> which makes it more harder
16:20:58 <webmink> Nokia's actions regarding MeeGo were actually generous...
16:20:59 <SK_work> even today Jolla have issues with qualcomm stuff
16:21:09 <mhall119> webmink: is there not something already in place to track non-open code components?
16:21:25 <tbr> webmink: thanks, I glossed over that bit as for me its "natural" and I'm blind on that spot
16:21:26 <Stskeeps> yes, we track non-open code quite intensively, they're seperated in our systems
16:21:31 <Stskeeps> but yes
16:21:41 <tbr> what if EGL3.0?
16:22:09 <Stskeeps> i would love to be able to say that we could spring a team of people into action to keep the HW adaptation updated, but i know from open projects such as MeeGo for N900 that updating a kernel for a device can be a real pain
16:22:31 <Stskeeps> even by the people who did the same code in older version at first
16:22:52 <phdeswer> It is! Especially if you don't have all the debugging tools, no hw docs etc...
16:22:55 <DiosDelRayo> because of lack of docu?
16:22:56 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: In the absolute worst case (e.g. Jolla going under) I think there should be a plan in place within Jolla to open all components that are not either under NDA or non-Jolla code
16:23:00 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: even with documentation
16:23:00 <tbr> Stskeeps: what are the chances that if the community wants to do things there will be help?
16:23:04 <MeegoBit> Stskeeps: that's because of proprietary blobs, right?
16:23:10 <webmink> mhall119: There are open tools to check source licensing, yes. And the compiler will tell you about missing source files :-)  But someone has to do it...
16:23:14 <phdeswer> MeegoBit: no. Because it is difficult stuff
16:23:16 <Stskeeps> ryukafalz: the moment a company goes under it's no longer your choice, AFAIK. It's your creditors.
16:23:33 <Stskeeps> MeegoBit: no, even with all the documentation in the world it's hard.
16:23:34 <mhall119> webmink: sounds like "someone" could be a script in this case
16:23:35 <tbr> webmink: I think jolla runs fossology already
16:23:45 <phdeswer> Propietary blobs only make it even harder
16:24:02 <Stskeeps> SGX was the easiest part in meego n900 project
16:24:03 <Stskeeps> :P
16:24:17 <tbr> so, this was only meant as a quick tease to bring this topic into people's consciousness.
16:24:23 <ryukafalz> Stskeeps: Hmm, that might be the case, yeah. I wonder if there's a way to handle that sort of thing within the legal system.
16:24:31 <tbr> I'd like to segway into the wrap-up
16:24:42 <Stskeeps> ryukafalz: and giving away your assets just before bankruptcy is.. i'm not sure it's legal
16:24:45 <Stskeeps> (IANAL)
16:24:51 <tbr> #topic Wrap up, loose ends, do we need another meeting? 10 min
16:25:03 <tbr> Stskeeps: think qt lgpl bomb
16:25:16 <tbr> primed long before
16:25:26 <webmink> Stskeeps: It has to be done long before there's an issue...
16:25:43 <Stskeeps> indeed.. but again, i recommend reading what i said last meeting
16:25:44 <tbr> anyway, let's tie up loose ends.
16:25:49 <iekku> i think we could have topic in next general meeting to check what has happened regarding to actions and make decision if there's a another meeting needed
16:25:52 <tbr> anyone feel that there is still something urgent?
16:26:06 * DiosDelRayo need a night to sleep over, still feels unhappy
16:26:27 <tbr> iekku: is a week enough for the jolla side? you're committing Stskeeps and others here :)
16:26:30 <lbt> VDVsx: did you have some comments ?
16:26:31 <tadzik> DiosDelRayo: how can we make you happy?
16:26:35 <Stskeeps> DiosDelRayo: if you poke me here on irc tomorrow let's have a talk
16:26:39 <mhall119> can't people bring all these questions up in #sailfishos anytime, rather than waiting for meetings? (these seem to be rather rushed when they happen)
16:26:40 <Stskeeps> tbr: next tuesday is a no-go sadly
16:26:41 <iekku> tbr, 2 weeks, and not sure
16:26:44 <Stskeeps> MeegoBit: yes
16:26:47 <Stskeeps> er, mhall119 yes
16:26:56 <tbr> mh, two weeks should be enough
16:26:57 <Stskeeps> tbr: planning day and such
16:27:02 <DiosDelRayo> okay Stskeeps thats a good idea
16:27:13 <lbt> VDVsx: don't be shy...
16:27:17 <VDVsx> lbt, just like I said before, people that want to help just ask around or do it
16:27:22 <DiosDelRayo> tadzik: give all source and docu so I can study the system ;)
16:27:23 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: I think the message here as Stskeeps said is that there is more than meetings
16:27:23 <lbt> :P
16:27:39 <VDVsx> we have accepted pacthes from community in many areas, like caldav for example
16:27:45 <iekku> mhall119, yes, but to make sure there's progres it's better to have check up?
16:27:45 <tbr> DiosDelRayo: discussions should happen all the time, #sailfishos is the place
16:27:46 <MeegoBit> +1
16:27:47 <MeegoBit> nice
16:28:18 <Stskeeps> we're all in this together, we're really happy to listen, talk, discuss. we're open source people just like you and trying to do much more open source by staying sustainable.. we hope that we can help make you understand more about how we function and the conditions we operate under. one day you might be in a startup yourself as well.
16:28:27 <Stskeeps> and have to decide if you open source X and Y..
16:28:30 <mhall119> iekku: regular updates are nice, yeah, but for actual questions like have been asked here there's no need to wait
16:28:31 <lbt> VDVsx: DiosDelRayo and someone are working on a list of apps - maybe they could ping you if needed ?
16:28:46 <VDVsx> sure
16:28:52 <lbt> ryukafalz: ^^^
16:28:55 <ryukafalz> Thinking a bit ahead here, but I propose we have a similar meeting after Jolla Tablet and Sailfish 2.0 are out, to revisit some of these topics and see how far we've come.
16:29:05 <iekku> mhall119, +1
16:29:07 <shibby> Stskeeps, you've got a lot of open source expertise in the room, glad to see webmink and OSIMasson contributing to the conversation, thanks to everyone for jumping in!
16:29:21 <Stskeeps> .. and importantly, do things
16:29:26 <DiosDelRayo> lbt: I don't undestand what list of apps :S
16:29:46 <mhall119> in Ubuntu we have weekly updates on G+ on-air hangouts, but we encourage people to talk to us daily on IRC/Mailing lists/etc anytime in between
16:29:53 <tbr> So, while the first topic sadly didn't go like planned (there was still valuable discussion, just not in the intended direction), I think the second one really focused things. I hope people are seeing progress and there is no need to hold a grudge on either side, but to work forward.
16:29:59 <webmink> DiosDelRayo: https://together.jolla.com/question/68182/whats-open-and-whats-not-in-saillfish-apps-from-a-community-point-of-view/
16:30:20 <MeegoBit> just a reminder, I leveraged the power of the community to answer what it believes is not open enough about the aps, in that link that webmink just re-posted
16:30:25 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: see the #info above and check the backlog/minutes
16:30:35 <OSIMasson> tbr: thanks for having me.
16:30:37 <Stskeeps> tbr: thank you for chairing
16:30:52 <iekku> tbr, thank you for chairing <3
16:30:57 <tbr> I'll go collapse in a corner after 2 hours being wired
16:30:59 <Tofe> thanks tbr !
16:31:00 <stephg> another +1
16:31:05 <iekku> and thank you all for joining the meeting
16:31:10 <locusf> thanks tbr :)
16:31:14 <sledges> all+1
16:31:18 <qwazix> +1
16:31:23 <DiosDelRayo> lbt: I will give my best but I have also a life and familly :)
16:31:23 <MeegoBit> thank you for discussing these topics with the community
16:31:24 <webmink> tbr, Stskeeps: Thanks for tolerating us outsiders :-)  If I can help further let me know, many channels available :-)
16:31:27 <tbr> OSIMasson webmink - thanks for coming and thanks for your input
16:31:35 <lbt> DiosDelRayo: terrible excuse!
16:31:41 <Stskeeps> webmink: OSIMasson: thanks for coming indeed.
16:31:47 <ryukafalz> DiosDelRayo: We all do, but we can give it a try :)
16:31:48 <MeegoBit> and for hearing our bitching ;)
16:32:10 <DiosDelRayo> lbt: I have to learn c++/qt/sailfishos/mer/TextSecure all in one day ;)
16:32:30 <tbr> so people, whenever you want to bitch, ask yourself? can I do something myself to help alleviate the situation? and then don't bitch and just do it!
16:32:31 <lbt> MeegoBit: always happy to hear constructive criticism ... especially when followed up by actual contributions of any sort
16:32:39 <DiosDelRayo> ryukafalz: I will do my best, I will not only try it ;)
16:32:48 <SK_work> DiosDelRayo: please do learn :)
16:32:50 <tbr> and to that tune, thanks everyone for coming and for the discussions, see you again during the next regular community meeting!
16:32:55 <tbr> #endmeeting