14:30:18 <iekku> #startmeeting SailfishOS, open source, collaboration: 19-November @ 14:30 UTC
14:30:18 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 19 14:30:18 2015 UTC.  The chair is iekku. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
14:30:18 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:30:29 <iekku> #info Welcome to another week of SailfishOS OSS and collaboration meeting
14:30:44 <iekku> #info Meeting info and agenda: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2015-November/006752.html
14:30:53 <iekku> I'm the meeting chair for today and will be keeping time and order. Please behave and show mutual respect, and let's have a productive discussion!
14:31:05 <iekku> #topic Brief introductions (5 min), prefix your information with #info
14:31:16 <Stskeeps> #info Carsten Munk, CTO, R&D, Jolla (for a few days more)
14:31:18 <SfietKonstantinW> hello
14:31:25 <iekku> #info iekku pylkk�, developer community sailor @ jolla
14:31:30 <situ> #info Siteshwar, community
14:31:33 <SfietKonstantinW> #info Lucien Xu, community
14:31:33 <stephg> #info Steph Gosling community
14:31:45 <Morpog> #info Morpog, community member
14:31:51 <tortoisedoc> #info tortoisedoc  community
14:32:00 <entil> #info entil community
14:32:04 <eugenio> #info Eugenio Paolantonio, lurker, community member
14:32:04 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, hadk and pootle sailor
14:32:04 <locusf> #info Aleksi Suomalainen, community contributor, SailPi cocreator
14:32:06 <daitheflu> #info François, community
14:32:10 <fk_lx> #info Some old ghost :D
14:32:23 <minimec> #info minimec community
14:32:24 <lbt> #info David Greaves, sailor?? and definitely still the Mer guy :)
14:32:29 <cos-> #info Ville Ranki, community
14:32:29 <cybette> #info Carol Chen, community sailor at Jolla (for now)
14:32:37 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> #info Martin Kolman, modRana developer, community
14:32:41 <JvD_> #info Tommi Keisala; Jolla fan, user and community member
14:33:01 <mattaustin> #info Matt Austin, developer, community
14:33:09 <veskuh_> #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, SW project management @ jolla
14:33:21 <electrolux> #info Eric Le Roux, tjc admin, sailor @ jolla
14:33:34 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member
14:33:41 <coderus> #info Andrey Kozhevnikov, coderus
14:33:47 <Nokius_work> #info Julius-Paul Jann; Jolla & Sailfish fan by <3 , Sailfishos porter
14:33:53 <pketolai> #info Pami Ketolainen, backend developer @ Jolla
14:34:03 <dr4Ke> #info dr4Ke, user, community
14:34:08 <tabasko> #info Joni Kurunsaari, user and hobby dev
14:34:09 <pdanek2> #info Peter Danek, community member
14:34:18 <urjaman> #info Urja Rannikko, community
14:34:22 <M-bobsummerwill> #info Bob Summerwill, community member
14:34:24 <iekku> 1 minute
14:35:39 <iekku> nice to see so many here :)
14:35:49 <iekku> let's move to next topic
14:35:58 <iekku> #topic upgrading xdg-utils in mer to master- tortoisedoc (15 min)
14:36:05 <iekku> tortoisedoc, stage is yours
14:36:20 <tortoisedoc> yes, thank you iekku this will be short
14:36:31 <tortoisedoc> gentlemen, this is about https://together.jolla.com/question/110408/xdg-open-no-longer-working/
14:36:37 <tortoisedoc> in short
14:37:02 <tortoisedoc> xdg-utils on mer is outdated and refers to defaults.list file
14:37:14 <tortoisedoc> instead, it should refer to mimeapps.list '
14:37:27 <tortoisedoc> there is a never (unreleased) version in the main trunk of xdg-utils
14:38:10 <Stskeeps> so at least i know that tigeli has been looking at this issue, but we hit some problems where it seemed to no longer be working with wayland
14:38:14 <tortoisedoc> note that fixing this is not trivial, as dependencies exists, mainly in libcontentaction, which hardcodes defaults.list as well
14:38:34 <Stskeeps> not to mention the amount of bees in libcontentaction :)
14:38:48 <coderus> symlink mimeapps to defaults? :)
14:38:51 <tortoisedoc> I cannot say if this particular problem is related to wayland, as it pertains only to xdg-open
14:39:01 <tortoisedoc> coderus : yes, but ugly
14:39:04 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: something about DISPLAY environment variable.
14:39:08 <tortoisedoc> cludge the size of this continent :)
14:39:33 <Stskeeps> but anyway, i need to double check this issue still exists in development version
14:39:50 <lbt> is there a bug ?
14:40:00 <tortoisedoc> just one ?;
14:40:00 <Stskeeps> https://together.jolla.com/question/110408/xdg-open-no-longer-working/?answer=119633#post-id-119633 was also answered
14:40:04 <tortoisedoc> ;)
14:40:20 <tortoisedoc> I can the fix proposed there is not a fix
14:40:25 <tortoisedoc> * the fix
14:40:33 <Morpog> https://bugs.merproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404
14:40:33 <merbot> Mer bug 1404 in libcontentaction "libcontentaction uses deprecated defaults.list instead of mimeapps.list" [Task,New]
14:40:41 <tortoisedoc> yes
14:40:45 <tortoisedoc> thats the one
14:40:47 <iekku> #info tigeli has been looking at the issue, Stskeeps to double check if this issue still exists in development version
14:41:10 <tortoisedoc> a patch is almost ready
14:41:17 <iekku> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/110408/xdg-open-no-longer-working/
14:41:24 <tortoisedoc> if i get guarantee of merging, i casn push it
14:41:27 <tortoisedoc> *can
14:41:34 <iekku> #link https://bugs.merproject.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404
14:41:34 <merbot> Mer bug 1404 in libcontentaction "libcontentaction uses deprecated defaults.list instead of mimeapps.list" [Task,New]
14:41:42 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: merging is never guaranteed if the patch is not good ;) if it's good, it's likely to go in
14:41:50 <Stskeeps> a few reviews are always good
14:41:55 <Stskeeps> so fork, send a merge request
14:41:58 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps defoine good ;)
14:42:04 <tortoisedoc> *define
14:42:10 <stephg> not bad :D
14:42:14 <Stskeeps> does it kill a device? ;)
14:42:21 <lainwir3d> or cats
14:42:23 <iekku> #info tortoisedoc has patch almost ready
14:42:55 <iekku> tortoisedoc, can i add action to you to send merge request when done?
14:43:22 <lbt> tortoisedoc: if you think it's good then submit it - if you think it's bad then don't. It's your opinion. Others may have opinions too.
14:43:38 <tortoisedoc> testing needs to be complerted first, and i do not know if i have tools /ressources for that
14:43:47 <tortoisedoc> *completed
14:43:48 <lbt> tn
14:44:04 <lbt> then submit it with that note and see if anyone else volunteers to do that with you
14:44:36 <iekku> +1
14:44:45 <tortoisedoc> sounds right
14:45:10 <dr_gogeta86> #info Fabio Isgro community
14:45:26 <iekku> #info tortoisedoc doesn't have tools/resources for testing the patch, he might submit it with note
14:45:40 <iekku> anything else for this topic?
14:45:52 <iekku> we have still 5 minutes :)
14:46:10 <Stskeeps> think we're fine to move on - tortoisedoc ?
14:46:15 <tortoisedoc> ok
14:46:20 <tortoisedoc> :)
14:46:22 <iekku> ok, thanks :)
14:46:31 <iekku> moving on then
14:46:36 <iekku> #topic Request more information on Roadmap for open-sourcing more of Sailfish - bobsummerwill (20 min)
14:46:37 <tortoisedoc> thanks to you!
14:46:58 <iekku> M-bobsummerwill, stage is yours
14:47:29 <Aciid> Question for all the backers
14:47:31 <Aciid> https://twitter.com/AciidXOR/status/667335663130386432
14:47:54 <Stskeeps> Aciid: we're in the middle of an agenda item, feel free to use the 'general discussion' later on.
14:48:00 <Aciid> oh, sorry.
14:48:04 <iekku> Aciid, as Stskeeps said
14:48:09 <M-bobsummerwill> Sorry - yep
14:48:11 <iekku> M-bobsummerwill, ahoy, are you here
14:48:37 <M-bobsummerwill> So pretty simple ... there have been various hints at revealing a roadmap for Open Sourcing.
14:49:08 <M-bobsummerwill> So what is the plan?   More than ever, I think Sailfish OS needs to be fully open sourced.
14:49:28 <M-bobsummerwill> Please come somebody from Jolla talk to that?
14:50:03 <Morpog> Stskeeps: you posted a "stay tuned" on TMO about that topic a while ago
14:50:35 <Stskeeps> so, i'll be handling this one today.. just starting out a bit, i'm sure you've all read the news today, that we've had delays in financing rounds and aiming to get back on our feet during december and we likely are employing solutions to recover from this delay, including personell layoffs, so this keeps the attention of our board/shareholders/management elsewhere
14:50:40 <tortoisedoc> Also given recent developments?
14:50:44 <Stskeeps> and making things challenging
14:50:56 <iekku> #info #info M-bobsummerwill: "there have been various hints at revealing a roadmap for Open Sourcing."
14:50:59 <iekku> #info M-bobsummerwill: "So what is the plan?   More than ever, I think Sailfish OS needs to be fully open sourced."
14:51:18 <Stskeeps> what i will talk about today is not a promise, but what's currently being discussed on board level in the company, where no decision has been made
14:51:25 <Stskeeps> to gather community input on the direction
14:52:30 <dr_gogeta86> How many people are "the board"
14:52:33 <dr_gogeta86> ?
14:52:46 <Stskeeps> dr_gogeta86: i think 7, but that's not really relevant for this topic :)
14:53:23 <dr_gogeta86> I talking about recovery plan ...
14:53:33 <fk_lx> what about Silica components? They were promised to be open sourced "soon" on FOSDEM 2013, it's end of 2015
14:53:36 <Stskeeps> so, the general idea would be that sailfishOS UI code would be under a triple license, lgplv2/gplv3 or under a commercial license - with a hosted git instance on jolla/sailfish infrastructure, with a contribution license agreement needed in order to have any submissions merged
14:53:41 <Stskeeps> a little like qt
14:53:49 <iekku> #info Stskeeps: "what i will talk about today is not a promise, but what's currently being discussed on board level in the company, where no decision has been made to gather community input on the direction"
14:53:52 <dr_gogeta86> thats the point
14:53:57 <Stskeeps> based on industry standard harmony http://www.harmonyagreements.org/docs/ha-combined-v1.html agreements
14:54:31 <Stskeeps> this CLA would allow us to relicense to commercial license terms, but also at same time, require us to keep your contribution available under that open source license you submitted under
14:54:53 <Stskeeps> the process for this would be lightweight, ie, see text, press OK
14:55:05 <Stskeeps> or a little longer if you're a company entity
14:55:31 <dr_gogeta86> not longer then OpenHeadSeatAlliance and google certification I think
14:55:39 <Tofe> Are there still blocking point to achieve this, other than taking the actual decision?
14:55:50 <Stskeeps> this does not mean a contributor would not assign his copyright, only giving a copyright license
14:56:04 <Stskeeps> er, this does not mean a contributor would assign his copyright, only give a copyright license
14:56:51 <Stskeeps> now, sailfishos is not only code, there's a number of things such as artwork, trademarks, logos, OS development know-how, which would be available under creative commons non-commercial terms
14:56:58 <Stskeeps> or a commercial license
14:57:21 <Stskeeps> .. and that's the basics of it, any comments so far?
14:57:21 <fk_lx> ok, a "general idea", but any concrete actions? Lot of time passed since FOSDEM 2013, is there any concrete timeline? When Silica UI be open sourced?
14:57:35 <Stskeeps> Tofe: decision needs to be made by our investors
14:57:48 <Morpog> Sounds reasonable
14:57:54 <stephg> yes
14:57:55 <M-bobsummerwill> I think it is a good pattern.
14:58:05 <tortoisedoc> sounds intriguing
14:58:12 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> sounds good to me
14:58:12 <daitheflu> sounds like a smart move
14:58:19 <Yaniel> just really needs a good implementation
14:58:22 <Stskeeps> there's naturally also 3rd party sailfishos stuff like alien dalvik, input method dictionaries, exchange support which are only part of a commercial license
14:58:23 <Nokius_work> sounds good
14:58:24 <lainwir3d> Do we get to sign ? Where do I sign ? :-D
14:58:25 <tortoisedoc> definitely a good move considering the times
14:58:33 <Stskeeps> do note that this is just theory at this point :)_
14:58:40 <Stskeeps> and subject to change
14:58:42 <eugenio> sounds great
14:58:43 <M-bobsummerwill> Presumably there is a bunch of "operational" work which would need to happen, scrubbing through everything, etc
14:58:50 <Yaniel> so we don't run into things like the issues on github where pull requests are just closed with "read the guidelines"
14:58:51 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps : what timeframe do you envision?
14:58:58 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> will not mind contributing under this arangement
14:59:05 <tortoisedoc> (assuming there is one)
14:59:14 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: given the current situation i don't want to give any thoughts on that
14:59:22 <Morpog> Stskeeps: 3rd party stuff of course, still would be great to license this stuff per device via Jolla store
14:59:22 <fk_lx> Ok so it was said to be open source, but now we learn it's up to decision of investors and they of course can say "no"
14:59:27 <Stskeeps> Morpog: yes
14:59:37 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps : so its pending, but pending what?
14:59:38 <Stskeeps> naturally jolla needs to be sustainable
14:59:42 <Stskeeps> as you well, can see :)
14:59:56 <ced117> fk_lx, they can say "no" but they can also say "yes" :-)
14:59:58 <tortoisedoc> ah ok :)
15:00:00 <Stskeeps> so that's why there is a tiny bit of drive towards getting a commercial license in practice to do a device
15:00:35 <Stskeeps> as well that let's say, 100.000 phones can be felt on infrastructure costs
15:00:43 <fk_lx> ced117: wasn't it decided already in 2003, when Jolla said it will be open source. So they said that without any responsibility just to attract FOSS communities?
15:00:49 <Tofe> Ok, all this is good to hear at last, even if I'm a bit worried the "investors" won't see the point of open-sourcing something
15:01:00 <tigeli> Stskeeps: btw the DISPLAY issue is not in the version of xdg-utils in the mer master but it was in the latest release 1.1.1
15:01:25 <Stskeeps> regarding CLA it could be as easy as https://github.com/clabot/clabot
15:01:34 <tortoisedoc> tigeli : in the release of what?
15:01:43 <lbt> tortoisedoc: tigeli: #mer please
15:01:59 <Stskeeps> Tofe: if shareholders don't want something, it's nothing the company can do anything about, they are the owners of the company :)
15:02:03 <iekku> 5 minutes
15:02:04 <Stskeeps> but let's see
15:02:11 <fk_lx> so again nothing concrete, an idea, depending on investors, typical
15:02:17 <iekku> tortoisedoc, tigeli: like lbt said, #mer please
15:02:29 <tortoisedoc> fk_lx : such is life :)
15:02:31 <M-bobsummerwill> I like the combined commercial/GPL pattern, because it lets the corporations with the money pay to participate while keeping the path to freedom open for the rest of us, where permissive licenses let the corporations pay nothing.
15:02:39 <ced117> fk_lx, sure they said that, but as Stskeeps pointed, inverstors need to do a decision, and they still havent done it. dont ask me why
15:03:07 <tortoisedoc> on the other hand; if you are not a company entity, just a private developer, does it mean you cannot apply a commercial license?
15:03:36 <fk_lx> ced117: they shouldn't say that it will be open source and put it on slide of open source components. But it was easier to give a promise, that today they didn't know if it will materialize
15:03:37 <tortoisedoc> or am i getting this wrong?
15:03:41 <Stskeeps> it would also, in my opinion, mean that all the sailfishos platform code would be considered as under open source licenses
15:04:38 <Stskeeps> .. so, any more questions?
15:04:48 <dr_gogeta86> what change for porters ?
15:04:58 <Stskeeps> dr_gogeta86: nothing in practice, you're already using it under non-commercial terms
15:05:13 <iekku> 1 minute
15:05:21 <dr_gogeta86> I see alien and otherbits as showstopper for sfos
15:05:25 <mal-> maybe we porters can then get fixes in faster in ui side
15:05:32 <fk_lx> so nothing concrete again, besides that, when they are sinking they again repeat same old stories
15:05:35 <tortoisedoc> does this affect silica or also lipstick for example?
15:05:35 <Morpog> dr_gogeta86: possibility to fix stuff in ui code for different devices
15:05:40 <dr_gogeta86> also
15:05:46 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: well, "SailfishOS UI code"
15:05:53 <Stskeeps> i certainly consider silica and lipstick part of that
15:05:55 <tortoisedoc> ok
15:05:56 <dr_gogeta86> and alot was done also with ported device
15:06:04 <Yaniel> IMHO alien is not a showstopper
15:06:12 <Morpog> tortoisedoc: lipstick is open already
15:06:14 <dr_gogeta86> avaiability on a store yes
15:06:17 <tortoisedoc> arent there opensource alternatives to aliendalvik
15:06:17 <Stskeeps> alien dalvik and the likes are a fixable problem, but it requires effort
15:06:20 <Yaniel> but it would be very useful to have it available as a 3rd party paid app or whatever
15:06:25 <dr_gogeta86> think raspberry shop for codecs
15:06:27 <Stskeeps> i've had alien dalvik running on the nexus 5 port, as an example
15:06:30 <tortoisedoc> Morpog : not jolla-lipstick :)
15:06:32 <Yaniel> I suppose myriad would have some interest in that too
15:06:37 <iekku> do we need more time?
15:06:44 <iekku> for this topic...
15:06:59 <tortoisedoc> Yaniel : myriad still exists?
15:07:01 <Morpog> iekku: maybe add the time we saved on last topic
15:07:08 <iekku> ok
15:07:12 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> would you consider open replacements for closed stuff ?
15:07:12 <dr_gogeta86> Stskeeps, you know how to crack/start it
15:07:12 <dr_gogeta86> i didn't even know if is possible copy bit from sbj and start it on a ported devices
15:07:12 <fk_lx> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6v-5qaykg_M/U14iCgbG3fI/AAAAAAAAAKc/R2kJClOA4oc/s1600/8448611516_aaf12dfe50_o.jpg
15:07:13 <fk_lx> stories for naive kids from 2013
15:07:16 <iekku> so 4 minutes still
15:07:17 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> could be eventually possilble under this arrangement
15:07:20 <Yaniel> whoever is maintaining alien now
15:07:35 <iekku> fk_lx, i asked to show mutual respect
15:08:05 <Stskeeps> dr_gogeta86: yeah.. i doubt we'll ever see alien dalvik, exchange, input methods as open source, as they are 3rd party offerings or under commercial licenses and crap
15:08:12 <dr_gogeta86> M4rtinK_tohkbd, i think priority is spread love
15:08:12 <fk_lx> iekku: Jolla and mutual respect, please don't joke
15:08:14 <Stskeeps> dr_gogeta86: so it has to be an effort on jolla's behalf
15:08:40 <M-bobsummerwill> I believe there are people in Ubuntu Phone community working on an open source Android player based on AOSP Dalvik code.   Should be possible, I think?
15:08:43 <iekku> fk_lx, this isn't for jolla but for community. please behave for sake of community members
15:08:45 <Morpog> Stskeeps: what about tortoisedoc question about jolla-lipstick?
15:08:48 <dr_gogeta86> i don't say open is say ... on request
15:08:52 <Stskeeps> Morpog: i answered it, i thought?
15:08:52 <Tofe> The communication on this topic was really frustrating. Would it be possible to communicate a little bit more in the future ? Even saying "waiting for shareholders to take a decision" would be a great improvement...
15:08:56 <dr_gogeta86> and paying it as a service
15:08:59 <Morpog> Oh, must have missed that
15:09:07 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps Morpog : yes
15:09:18 <tortoisedoc> (it got answer, jolla-lipstick is included)
15:09:21 <Morpog> ah tehre it is
15:09:24 <Stskeeps> Tofe: got into a stupid situation where i simply wasn't able to be on the computer, and i'm pretty much the authority on this topic, others will keep on pushing it internally though
15:09:26 <Morpog> nice
15:09:30 <Stskeeps> Tofe: at this hour, that is
15:09:38 <fk_lx> iekku: you showed where you have community members in late 2013 and 2014, please don't tell fairy tales
15:10:04 <Stskeeps> but if we moved forward with this as a model, you guys would generally be good with this kind of setup?
15:10:14 <Yaniel> could we have a section on jolla.com indicating the status of this kind of things?
15:10:15 <M-bobsummerwill> yes
15:10:15 <Tofe> Stskeeps: well, yes, but IRC isn't the only communication channel, there's TJC for instance
15:10:23 <SfietKonstantinW> Stskeeps: since it looks Qt like, I can only support this :)
15:10:24 <Yaniel> to have something official to point people to
15:10:25 <Stskeeps> i know that CLAs can frustrate people at least
15:10:37 <Stskeeps> Yaniel: i think this is more of a sailfishos.org thing
15:10:44 <iekku> 1 minute for this topic
15:10:45 <SfietKonstantinW> Stskeeps: the problem about CLAs is more about other companies / partners
15:10:46 <Yaniel> (obviously with a big "subject to change" disclaimer)
15:10:49 <SfietKonstantinW> are they ok about this ?
15:10:56 <Morpog> Stskeeps: yes, sounds fine for me, it works on other places as well (canonical...)
15:10:58 <SfietKonstantinW> for individuals like people here, it matter less
15:11:03 <Stskeeps> SfietKonstantinW: it's much easier to copyright license than assign copyright
15:11:09 <fk_lx> iekku: what counted was not community, but covering your employee dirty behavior. I would ask where he is today? Not caring about his (former) company as expected.
15:11:13 <Stskeeps> in a company
15:11:17 <Stskeeps> qt shows that
15:11:21 <urjaman> this CLA seems ok (as it doesnt invovle snail mailing documents or something really stupid)
15:11:22 <Stskeeps> it can work with companies
15:11:25 <SfietKonstantinW> Stskeeps: ok
15:11:35 <fk_lx> iekku: so please don't talk about community
15:11:46 <iekku> fk_lx, this is offtopic. please behave and stay on topic, else i have to ask you to leave from meeting
15:12:06 <Stskeeps> ok, thanks all for listening :)
15:12:13 <Stskeeps> glad to have this model validated by community too
15:12:15 <iekku> ok, time is up
15:12:19 <fk_lx> iekku: your remarks were offtopic
15:12:21 <ced117> stephg, thank you for all the informations
15:12:21 <tortoisedoc> so now for the generic questions? :P
15:12:25 <ced117> Stskeeps, *
15:12:38 <JvD_> Stskeeps: you rock
15:12:40 <Tofe> Stskeeps: thanks for the clarifications
15:12:45 <iekku> #info to see conversation see full logs
15:12:45 <Stskeeps> for next topic i'd like to start if it's ok?
15:12:47 <SfietKonstantinW> thanks Stskeeps
15:12:54 <tortoisedoc> Lets hope this to be a great starting point for SFOS
15:12:57 <kimmoli> ffs i'm late
15:12:59 <iekku> #topic General discussions - everyone (15 min)
15:13:00 <mattaustin> Thanks
15:13:04 <daitheflu> thanks Stskeeps
15:13:05 <iekku> Stskeeps, please start
15:13:25 <Stskeeps> so, naturally you all are worried about jolla and it's state and how that affects your daily use of your phone or devices
15:13:37 <stephg> nah I'm worried about the people
15:13:44 <SfietKonstantinW> stephg: +1
15:13:46 <dr_gogeta86> also
15:13:53 <Stskeeps> and i just wanted to say we're very happy to hear ideas how we can make it easier for community (well, beyond open sourcing) in worst case scenarios
15:13:59 <entil> does it seem unlikely, likely, or something in between that the financian situation will adversely affect the intex deal or is the release of that phone past the point of no return?
15:14:17 <tortoisedoc> +1 entil
15:14:19 <Stskeeps> entil: i think that none of us here can really answer that :/
15:14:25 <tortoisedoc> ugh
15:14:35 <entil> Stskeeps: that's a reply, at least, if not a complete answer, thanks ;)
15:14:41 <coderus> i worried about status of services, what serices will continue work in same way, what services will have problems
15:14:57 <tortoisedoc> yes, like qa, does it still stand?
15:15:01 <Stskeeps> and also, where community could help through this rough patch
15:15:04 <entil> but if the intex deal goes as expected and the phone hits the markets, is there some, none or metric tons of money flowing into jolla inc?
15:15:06 <tortoisedoc> for apps especially?
15:15:09 <coderus> so peoples complaining about very long time harbour approval, for example
15:15:30 <cybette> i had the same idea as Stskeeps, to gather what's needed to keep things going for community and get an idea how community can help if you want
15:15:47 <Tofe> worst case scenario, would be to still have a store, maybe a tjc
15:15:48 <iekku> +1 for Stskeeps and cybette
15:15:49 <Stskeeps> some of you guys definately have talents to set up a dummy empty jolla.com and sailfishos.org zone and tell what blows up :)
15:15:49 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: what do you mean precisely by saying "how we can make it easier for community" ?
15:15:59 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> well, I am going to buy another Jolla from the Jolla shop for once :)
15:16:15 <Aciid> appstore with paid apps, and a royalty could help the financial stress
15:16:16 <Stskeeps> daitheflu: to keep on using your devices as usual
15:16:17 <dr_gogeta86> intex need to create a true sbj with all features community wants
15:16:31 <Stskeeps> daitheflu: for nokia n9 it was a pain in the ass afterwards
15:16:31 <dr_gogeta86> Amoled 2Gb ram 64 rom lte-a
15:16:44 <Yaniel> ^
15:17:06 <Stskeeps> so that's why we're talking openly about this, to have a head start, in case a worst case scenario does happen
15:17:09 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps : I guess opensourcing would be the answer to that problem?
15:17:11 <Morpog> If you are able to push out bleeding edge stuff that is "stable", then do it as long as you can. Else it would be fine to get some documentation / tools to flash our devices. Especially the tablet should be "easy" to get AOSP on it I guess, as it was originally an Android device. This would lower the frustration for people getting the tablet and ending with less than one software update.
15:17:12 <Stskeeps> and well, there's people to work on it
15:17:19 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: open sourcing doesn't fix, let's say, release repos
15:17:24 <Stskeeps> for the average consumer
15:17:29 <daitheflu> Stskeeps: ok, thanks :) I wasn't there at the N9-age
15:17:46 <Tofe> Stskeeps: yes, being able to reset and get back to latest release is a must
15:17:51 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> if thinks go really bad, we are pretty screwed due to missing images
15:17:58 <tortoisedoc> definitely
15:18:03 <Stskeeps> M4rtinK_tohkbd: so a tool to store a backup of factory image?
15:18:03 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> if the repos go down
15:18:10 <ced117> right
15:18:12 <coderus> can you tell which jolla company parts will have most stress, and what will work as usual?
15:18:30 <Stskeeps> coderus: that's unclear at this point, a temporary layoff is always a very tense situation
15:18:36 <Stskeeps> some people might find other work, etc
15:18:45 <Stskeeps> it's fair to say all parts :)
15:18:47 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> Stskeeps: yep, thats the main worst-case-protectio
15:18:48 <coderus> so, from random offices?
15:18:53 <Tofe> Stskeeps: right, that kind of tool, or even a semi-official guide, would be necesary
15:19:13 <Stskeeps> other people might want to run different OS's on their devices, so a simple android baseport could be useful for some
15:19:18 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps: important is definitely to get valid images, not infectef
15:19:23 <tortoisedoc> *infected
15:19:42 <ArtVandalae> yes, something hashed+signed as official
15:19:45 <iekku> coderus, we can't really say at the moment, to be seen
15:19:46 <entil> Stskeeps: do you mean a jolla inc android baseport or what?
15:19:53 <Stskeeps> entil: nah, more like hackers edition
15:19:56 <Coolgeek> question: is the layoff impact helpdesk ? have a request on zendesk open for a month and no reply :(
15:20:00 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> I would also like to mention the Maemo community governance
15:20:00 <dr_gogeta86> +1 Stskeeps
15:20:00 <iekku> oops, took my hat away for awhile
15:20:15 <tortoisedoc> TBH, android on jolla is not interesting :P
15:20:17 <Stskeeps> the blobs on the device are working drivers
15:20:30 <tortoisedoc> although, a dualboot..
15:20:30 <entil> kk, because a jolla inc android might sound like giving up on sailfish, but µg with a sailfish ux and no google anywhere is an interesting choice if everything goes apocalypse
15:20:33 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: it's not, but for people that might want to run experiments, it's handy, or ubuntu touch, or whichever
15:20:39 <dr_gogeta86> a bit old  doesn't it ?
15:20:39 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> you still can flash a n900 and use it without issues with default repos
15:20:48 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> that are now run by community
15:20:48 <cybette> Coolgeek: i would say pretty much all functions are impacted, the question is how much for each, that's not clear yet.
15:21:03 <mattaustin> M4rtinK_tohkbd: +1
15:21:09 <coderus> em, do we need to start backuping jolla repos already? or one is joking?
15:21:15 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> as the domains no pont to community infra
15:21:17 <Tofe> Stskeeps: or whichever ;)
15:21:21 <Stskeeps> coderus: it's a unstable situation but not doomsday yet
15:21:28 <Stskeeps> collecting food and building shelter is a good idea :p
15:21:31 <dr_gogeta86> coderus, just in case dump
15:21:33 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps: hows the dooms clock
15:21:34 <M-bobsummerwill> Yes - making sure we have a solid Android base for the Jolla Phone and Tablet would be a sensible insurance.
15:21:46 <Nokius_work> Stskeeps: +1 for a backup tool
15:21:48 <tortoisedoc> ah ok :)
15:21:53 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> on the other han the N9 is pretty much dead without specific manual steps
15:21:59 <dr_gogeta86> begin with twrp
15:22:07 <dr_gogeta86> n9 is dead at all
15:22:20 <dr_gogeta86> in some case you can't install even whareouse
15:22:28 <Stskeeps> so, let's keep the conversation going
15:22:50 <cybette> dommsday or not backup is always a good idea
15:23:06 <Tofe> cybette: +2
15:23:10 <Stskeeps> i'm not personally affected by layoffs since well, i already resigned to pursue careless youthful projects, not because of the current situation in the company ;) last day 30th; but hope to be around as a contractor to jolla to do good stuff still
15:23:24 <Stskeeps> so let's keep the discussion going and let's do what's good for all jolla users
15:23:25 <dr_gogeta86> why all cm aren't like this
15:23:33 <tortoisedoc_> dropped
15:23:34 <stephg> sailors: *if* (and I really hope it's an if) there's a lights out, do you have a feel for how much notice:- if the community needs to rally to prep things
15:23:38 <SfietKonstantinW> Stskeeps: +3
15:23:48 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> +1
15:23:48 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> can also help motivate contributors
15:23:48 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> to have a safety jacket
15:24:00 <Stskeeps> personally i would like my jolla phone to keep working, it's a really neat thing :)
15:24:03 <entil> just please keep this https://fralef.me/using-android-without-google-apps.html kind of stuff in mind if there's to be an android base image ;)
15:24:04 <chem|st> #info chem|st Rüdiger Schiller Maemo Community e.V.
15:24:14 <Stskeeps> ok, other topics than this one?
15:24:14 <SfietKonstantinW> should we start collect funding too ?
15:24:22 <SfietKonstantinW> funds is the root of all solutions isn't it ?
15:24:29 <tortoisedoc_> SK +1
15:24:30 <entil> and I +1 stskeeps on that, the jolla phone and subsequent intex whatever possible community sailfish flashes are a good thing
15:24:32 <tortoisedoc_> indiegogo?
15:24:37 <Stskeeps> funds are really challenging at this point, though, there's shareholder stuff etc
15:24:46 <Stskeeps> also, well, you guys haven't gotten all your tablets
15:24:55 <tortoisedoc_> Stskeeps so IGG is not an option?
15:25:01 <Morpog> SfietKonstantinW: I guess our small community could not really get any serious funding done
15:25:03 <Stskeeps> i wouldn't advise it personally, but i'm not a lawyer
15:25:11 <iekku> 3 minutes
15:25:12 <entil> as it was said on one of the channels, if 10k people paid 10e/mo you'd roughly pay for one (1) developer, so crowd funding sounds like a real risky deal
15:25:13 <SfietKonstantinW> Morpog: well
15:25:15 <Stskeeps> buying a jolla phone is always good ;)
15:25:24 <tortoisedoc_> lolz
15:25:28 <chem|st> just to add some cents from maemo perspective, if we are able to we will help and support any move (as by our bylaws) torwards new waters
15:25:34 <tortoisedoc_> i could buy another tablet? :L)
15:25:35 <Stskeeps> coderus: nod
15:25:39 <Stskeeps> er
15:25:40 <Stskeeps> chem|st: nod
15:25:54 <coderus> can you tell if many peoples used igg tablet refund?
15:25:56 <Stskeeps> stephg: it's a so tough situation in general that i'd say this is the notice
15:26:09 <stephg> Stskeeps: understood
15:26:17 <Stskeeps> and we're here to help to make sure that it can happen easier
15:26:19 <entil> are there any numbers on what kind of extra phone sales would have to happen, or the equivalent income would need to flow, in order to get at least the tablets out? are the furloughs enough to get the tablets out?
15:26:27 <Stskeeps> entil: i don't have those, sorry
15:26:42 <Stskeeps> but, in best case scenario, we'll be back on our feet
15:26:42 <M-bobsummerwill> Keeping key infrastructure going independently of Jolla is probably the most important thing, right?    Websites.   Repos.
15:26:45 <Stskeeps> just a "oh shit moment"
15:26:53 <Stskeeps> M-bobsummerwill: ipfs does come to mind :)
15:26:54 <coderus> i imagined tablets are already in warehousees, but not paid by jolla :D
15:26:59 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> also obs
15:27:08 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> at leas the target
15:27:08 <SfietKonstantinW> OBS is on Mer
15:27:15 <cybette> stephg: we are waiting for more info to try to get the "feel" for ourselves as well, and many of us are putting priority of keep things/infra going for users/community as discussed here
15:27:16 <SfietKonstantinW> but I guess there are funds needed
15:27:20 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> we already lost the harmattan one
15:27:34 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> would suck to loose another one
15:27:38 <iekku> 1 minute
15:27:39 <stephg> cybette: thanks
15:27:41 <M-bobsummerwill> https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNhFJjGcMPqpuYfxL62VVB9528NXqDNMFXiqN5bgFYiZ1/its-time-for-the-permanent-web.html
15:27:50 <tortoisedoc_> nmM4rtinK_tohkbd +100
15:27:56 <stephg> and on that note I just quickly wanted to say thank you for all of the hard work and passion the Jolla folks have shown over the last few years, I'm saddened by todays news, wish them well those that have to leave and sincerely hope that a solution is found to keep things going.
15:27:59 <chem|st> M-bobsummerwill: we'd need to buy another server but I think we could back most of it
15:28:10 <iekku> stephg, thank you <3
15:28:17 <dr_gogeta86> locusf, is the ambassador here
15:28:17 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> +1
15:28:24 <Stskeeps> there should be more info about the company in general coming later on
15:28:33 <dr_gogeta86> i can't say the same about investors
15:28:35 <Stskeeps> so let's keep the convo going later on
15:28:42 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> though I think we would be better of
15:28:43 <dr_gogeta86> some time can kill you
15:28:50 <iekku> and from that we can move to next topic :)
15:28:54 <SfietKonstantinW> stephg: +<lot>
15:28:59 <iekku> #topic Wrap up and next meeting (10 min)
15:29:02 <dr_gogeta86> Stskeeps, but intex did some investment apart be a licence
15:29:08 <dr_gogeta86> e
15:29:08 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> if the licensing would have been as proposedtoday from the start
15:29:08 * lbt notes that Mer funding is running low too - currently Mer is paid for by me + Stskeeps ... so ...
15:29:13 <cybette> thanks stephg SfietKonstantinW and all
15:29:13 <Stskeeps> ah, yes, what lbt said too
15:29:17 <M-bobsummerwill> Just to reiterate ... Hugs and kisses to everybody affected.
15:29:17 <Morpog> I would also like to thank you guys trying to do the impossible! That way I had 2 years more fun with an awesome OS.
15:29:22 <Stskeeps> donations for mer infra also welcome
15:29:34 <stephg> lbt: Stskeeps how can the community help with that
15:29:38 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> alienated a lot of contributors for sure
15:29:41 <stephg> (not doing, but the money!)
15:29:49 <lbt> I've never really had time to setup to take donations tbh - we had corporate backing and it was enough
15:29:54 <lbt> now however :D
15:30:00 <stephg> :)
15:30:08 <tortoisedoc_> :D
15:30:15 <tortoisedoc_> mirroring on maemo?
15:30:25 <Stskeeps> M4rtinK_tohkbd: it's always about sustainability early on, sadly, OSS is considered a loss in potential value in many eyes
15:30:28 <M-bobsummerwill> IPFS could be a great "hosting solution" for both projects, I think.
15:30:29 <cybette> M-bobsummerwill: xxoo :)
15:30:31 <Stskeeps> M4rtinK_tohkbd: but yes, agreed
15:30:32 <coderus> thanks and i personally have no problem in using jolla in worst scenarion, just keep repos mirrored and ship all orders
15:30:35 <iekku> hey, people!!
15:30:39 <M-bobsummerwill> But mirroring is always good too.   Thanks, chem|st
15:30:40 <Stskeeps> sorry iekku :P
15:30:43 <iekku> when we will have next meeting
15:30:47 <Stskeeps> i vote next week
15:30:54 <stephg> Stskeeps: +1
15:30:55 <iekku> might be good idea
15:30:57 <tortoisedoc_> yes
15:30:59 <iekku> +1 for that
15:30:59 <stephg> things seem pretty fluid
15:31:03 <tortoisedoc_> next week :)
15:31:19 <coderus> come back when you will have news or you need to get users/community feedback on things
15:31:19 <iekku> so, 26th of november?
15:31:25 <M4rtinK_tohkbd> +1
15:31:26 <M-bobsummerwill> Regular meetings are good.    That would be one element of feedback from me, is that these meetings have been way too sparse.
15:31:27 <cybette> yes let's make it next week. i was hoping to have the news officially out through jolla so we can discuss more, but next week would work
15:31:38 <Stskeeps> iekku: yes
15:31:50 <iekku> anyone volunteering to chair?
15:31:54 <tortoisedoc_> i think so too, regular meetings during hard times  help
15:31:54 <iekku> if not, i can
15:32:09 <Stskeeps> there's only so much we can discuss in 160 characters, so
15:32:11 <ced117> +1 tortoisedoc_ !
15:32:25 <coderus> hashtag, #doittogether :)
15:32:29 <ced117> :-)
15:32:30 <chem|st> iekku: you just volunteered
15:32:35 <stephg> hehe
15:32:39 <iekku> chem|st, hehe
15:32:43 <iekku> ok
15:32:46 <cybette> iekku: i can chair ..
15:32:49 <tortoisedoc_> ok im off changing diapers then :)
15:32:59 <tortoisedoc_> all the best to the sailors
15:33:06 <SfietKonstantinW> can we set a first topic
15:33:09 <stephg> tortoisedoc_: you really should go to the toilet before not during the meeting ;)
15:33:12 <iekku> #info next meeting 26-November 14:30 UTC
15:33:21 <tortoisedoc_> might the ship sail on the crest of the waves ;)
15:33:22 <M-bobsummerwill> Thanks, everyone!
15:33:25 <SfietKonstantinW> "transparency report: how it is going @ Jolla" ?
15:33:29 <iekku> #info chair iekku or cybette
15:33:45 <iekku> remember to add topics
15:33:46 <stephg> SfietKonstantinW: not unreasonable, an update at the very least
15:34:06 <coderus> iekku: #info remember to add topics :)
15:34:10 <iekku> :D
15:34:14 <Stskeeps> thanks all
15:34:16 <mattaustin> Thanks everyone!
15:34:19 <iekku> #info remember to add topics
15:34:20 <Stskeeps> let's keep the #doittogether going
15:34:22 <fk_lx> funny that companies recall about communities when they are in need of money or they need to sell something
15:34:25 <ced117> thanks ! ;-)
15:34:30 <veskuh_> thanks
15:34:32 <JvD_> thank you
15:34:33 <iekku> thank you everyone
15:34:36 <chem|st> lbt: Stskeeps if need be, gimme a shout and I am sure we can figure something out from our side
15:34:39 <SfietKonstantinW> thanks sailors too
15:34:40 <cybette> thanks everyone
15:34:43 <Morpog> funny how trolls are coming back in bad times :D
15:34:53 <coderus> dont worry, do it together :)
15:34:55 <Morpog> thanks everyone, cya next time
15:34:56 <fk_lx> Morpog: hugs!
15:35:02 <fk_lx> ;)
15:35:04 <ced117> sure coderus :-D
15:35:06 <kimmoli> o/
15:35:09 <iekku> #endmeeting