14:30:37 <Stskeeps> #startmeeting SailfishOS, open source, collaboration: 3 December @ 14:30 UTC
14:30:37 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 14:30:37 2015 UTC.  The chair is Stskeeps. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
14:30:37 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:30:41 <Stskeeps> #info Welcome to another week of SailfishOS OSS and collaboration meeting
14:30:48 <Stskeeps> #info Agenda at https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2015-December/006784.html
14:30:51 <Stskeeps> #topic Brief introductions (5 min), prefix your information with #info
14:30:56 <Stskeeps> #info Carsten Munk, community member
14:31:14 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community member
14:31:18 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member
14:31:19 <cybette> #info Carol Chen, community member
14:31:20 <locusf> #info Aleksi Suomalainen, community member
14:31:26 <vgrade> #info Martin Brook, community
14:31:28 <JvD__> #info Tommi Keisala, community member
14:31:37 <Venty> #info Martin Ebnoether, community member
14:31:39 <seiichiro0185> #info Stefan Brand, community member
14:31:52 <Copernicus> #info John Pietrzak, community member
14:31:55 <Nokius_work> #info Julius-Paul Jann, community
14:32:01 <tortoisedoc> #info tortoisedoc community member, developer
14:32:23 <dirkvl> #info dirkvl, community member
14:32:24 <veskuh_> #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, Jolla, SW Program Manager
14:32:51 <nodevel> #info Jakub K., community member
14:33:25 <sunweaver> #info Mike Gabriel,  community, Qt and Debian developer
14:34:51 <kimmoli> #info kimmo lindholm, community
14:34:55 <iekku> #info iekku pylkk�, community
14:35:03 <Stskeeps> #topic Jolla open sourcing update / company update (tortoisedoc) (20 minutes)
14:35:14 <Stskeeps> #info "what are the main difficulties internally against open sourcing? What is the current emergency status @ jolla (in colors only: green/yellow/orange/red, with green = OK red = KO; details of course welcomed but not mandatory for obvious reasons)?"
14:35:35 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: anything more to add than this, or elaborating?
14:35:42 <tortoisedoc> yes,
14:36:07 <tortoisedoc> or actually no, so that's all :)
14:36:26 <Stskeeps> veskuh_: maybe you'd like to say something about these topics? :)
14:36:49 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: yep
14:37:02 <veskuh_> So starting from OSS
14:37:14 <veskuh_> #info Internally in RnD we mostly worry about practical issues. How to ensure the quality of contributions, both in terms of code and user experience.
14:37:27 <veskuh_> #info How to have proper guidelines and process in place, how to keep release schedules and have proper platform development kits for community.
14:37:49 <veskuh_> #info How to do customer specific features, and new devices in open setup without leaking information that is not yet public.
14:38:08 <veskuh_> other than that engineers like OSS and would like to see more of it
14:38:33 <veskuh_> business side is more complex
14:38:55 <tortoisedoc> of course both sides need to be aligned in order for this to happen, me guesses
14:38:59 <veskuh_> yep
14:39:05 <veskuh_> #info On the business side, the issues are mainly related to discussions with potential investors, licensees, and partners.
14:39:06 <r0kk3rz> is there much resistance on the business side? or is it more the practical matters
14:39:36 <veskuh_> its related to discussion with investors and partners
14:39:49 <tortoisedoc> so IPR?
14:39:49 <veskuh_> #info Some investors and partners understand how open source is beneficial to the company, but some potential licensees or  investors would see open source as something that cannot be monetized
14:40:24 <veskuh_> yes, both what is value of company and if license to partners what is the value
14:41:07 <tortoisedoc> I wonder how does Red hat for example approach such problem; and would it be possible to replicate?
14:41:54 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: I think they mostly get money from consulting, and in long term that would be potential alternative
14:41:57 <andybranson> redhat sell support, don't they?
14:42:15 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: however, in short term we need investment or good customer
14:43:10 <veskuh_> So shortly those are the main problems we have with open sourcing more
14:43:33 <tortoisedoc> so if correctly understood, its two problems; both process-wise, as well as business-wise
14:43:35 <Stskeeps> (not to mention that navigating such is hard in a debt restructuring scenario, i guess)
14:44:11 <sunweaver> about release schedules... I recommend package-wise update releases, at least for security issues. For a community driven project, pushing out distro bundle releases is not really doable. Furthermore, in community driven distros things are done when they are done.
14:44:48 <r0kk3rz> sunweaver: the problem with that is QA and end user experience
14:44:53 <mhall119> andybranson: who's going to buy support for their phone software?
14:45:00 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: yes, good point.
14:45:07 <r0kk3rz> a mobile phone is a little different to a free linux distro
14:45:13 <tortoisedoc> well we are all very much aware of the current situatio
14:45:14 <M4rtinK> device manufacturers
14:45:26 <tortoisedoc> let's focus on the possible solutions
14:45:31 <M4rtinK> mhall119: ^
14:45:32 <sunweaver> the Debian project provides a lot of good examples how QA can be handled.
14:45:41 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 : users?
14:45:47 <tortoisedoc> M4rtinK : ^
14:46:07 <M4rtinK> well, I can see also some users doing that
14:46:07 <mhall119> tortoisedoc: doubtful
14:46:25 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 : because of piracy?
14:46:30 <M4rtinK> as Androd just does not has this concept
14:46:51 <Tofe> mhall119: OSS doesn't necessarily change what you buy/don't buy
14:46:51 <M4rtinK> other than buying a new phone
14:46:51 <mhall119> tortoisedoc: no, because phone users don't like recurring costs for that kind of thing
14:46:55 <mhall119> nor do desktop users
14:47:01 <andybranson> mhall119: i would say oems. hw adaptations and porting new versions to it.
14:47:06 <mhall119> companies buy support, individuals don't
14:47:08 <tortoisedoc> mahll119 : but if it would be an "optional" cost
14:47:13 <tortoisedoc> as in, not mandatory
14:47:20 <sunweaver> A linux phone is a linux distro... you have packages, pstream code, security issues in upstream code, etc.
14:47:22 <tortoisedoc> in the form of "new features"?
14:47:36 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 ^
14:47:43 <r0kk3rz> this could be a never ending discussion, maybe its best to get the second half out of the way? about the current status of jolla?
14:47:44 <mhall119> andybranson: OEMs would pay, yes, but that's not Red Hat's model
14:47:52 <M4rtinK> I can see users crowdfunding new features
14:47:52 <Stskeeps> since we have 8 minutes left, second part, current status of how jolla is doing?
14:48:01 <tortoisedoc> ok
14:48:04 <tortoisedoc> thanks!½
14:48:10 <vgrade> SailfishOS native build of eth on Nexus 5, http://pastie.org/10596456 [B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[1;3C[1;3D[1;3D[1;3C
14:48:13 <M4rtinK> works for PyPy quite nicely
14:48:13 <mhall119> sorry to derail things :/
14:48:50 <tortoisedoc> so whats the alarm status
14:48:55 <veskuh_> #info Jolla is in restructuring mode, where we are having minimal crew, but allmost all operations are still ongoing.
14:49:21 <veskuh_> #info harbout and care queues are long but still worked on
14:49:34 <iekku> harbour?
14:49:48 <veskuh_> iekku: yes, we have some testers still
14:49:57 <veskuh_> and I think over 30 apps in queue
14:50:07 <iekku> veskuh_, you had typo at info
14:50:20 <veskuh_> iekku: ah, thanks :)
14:50:33 <veskuh_> #info harbour queue is long but still being worked on
14:50:52 <veskuh_> #info RnD is working. 2.0.1 release is quite close, but due to lack of people unclear how soon we can get it out. There is work ongoing to following releases too.
14:51:07 <veskuh_> #info Shop is still up and running and selling Jollas
14:51:11 <hge> 24 in queue this afternoon
14:51:15 <hge> on harbour
14:51:18 <tortoisedoc> that raises a good question
14:51:20 <veskuh_> #info Business people are talking with potential investors and licensees
14:51:25 <tortoisedoc> how many jolla's are left to sell?
14:51:38 <veskuh_> so that summs up the situation based on what I know
14:51:52 <Venty> Ordered phones are being delivered still?
14:52:00 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: any token statement about status of tablet project?
14:52:08 <tortoisedoc> +veskuh_ : on the color scale, considering these infos and others you cant share, what is the outlook?
14:52:48 <Stskeeps> Venty: i've heard here was dhl/post strike or something like that in finland? dunno
14:52:50 <Coolgeek> for care, you said long. do you have some stats to share ?
14:52:55 <sunweaver> how many phones are available still? Nothing to worry about?
14:53:03 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz: I wouldn't want to comment on that. Our chairman knows the situation and tries to work out solution
14:53:09 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ : please do not hesitate to be frank :)
14:53:26 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: thanks, understandable its a touchy situation
14:53:29 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps : yes strike is over now
14:53:35 <Venty> Stskeeps: Ah, you're right. I'm only asking because there is still interest in the phone in my peer group.
14:54:16 <Stskeeps> http://postandparcel.info/69718/news/finlands-postal-strike-update/ , but unsure if this is related to shipments or not
14:54:59 <Stskeeps> 1 minute to go
14:55:01 <Tofe> tortoisedoc: you'd like to know if it's yellow or orange, eh :) but it may depend on how optimistic the person is... Or ?
14:55:07 <cybette> Stskeeps: i think local shipments in Finland were affected
14:55:16 <tortoisedoc> Tofe : I want a realistic evaluation :P
14:55:20 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: Well, the situation is bad, but there is hope. We are having good discussions with partners and investors.
14:55:33 <tortoisedoc> (and anonymous)
14:55:42 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: I just really hope that those discussions come to good conclusions soon enough.
14:55:57 <Stskeeps> next topic.. :)
14:55:59 <r0kk3rz> so do we all veskuh_
14:55:59 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ thanks for the info :)
14:56:03 <Stskeeps> #topic General discussions - everyone (10 min)
14:56:06 <stephg> sorry I'm late
14:56:22 <mhall119> veskuh_: any ETA on what that conclusion (either way) might happen?
14:56:24 * sunweaver hopes that, too...
14:56:38 <Stskeeps> thanks to vgrade for showing ethereum on nexus 5 / sailfishos: http://pastie.org/10596456
14:57:08 <stephg> cool
14:57:16 <veskuh_> mhall119: can't share anything precise
14:57:17 <vgrade> Stskeeps: wrong window but oh well
14:57:28 <Stskeeps> vgrade: still on-topic ;)
14:57:38 <dr_gogeta86> any plan for 2k16
14:57:50 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ : is there a limited set of jollas (in the shop) for sale or will they keep on coming as long as they sell?
14:58:11 <r0kk3rz> dr_gogeta86: still be operating? anything else is a stretch goal at this stage i think
14:58:12 <sunweaver> How many Jollas are left for selling?
14:58:34 <Coolgeek> for care, you said long. do you have some stats to share ?
14:59:41 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: in your personal opinion, do you think the layoff of staff will have a lasting long term impact (in loss of knowledge) even if the funding resumes?
14:59:51 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: the availability is somewhat limited and our financial position does constrain it a bit, but so far we have managed to get new ones to sell. Don't know how much they last though.
15:00:49 <Stskeeps> (5 minutes to go)
15:00:52 <sunweaver> veskuh_: thanks
15:01:27 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz:  That may be a problem in short term, if key person is not available, in long term I think we can learn new things.
15:01:38 <tortoisedoc> thanks veskuh_
15:02:36 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: sure, but there is a lot of effort that goes into finding and employing competent people
15:02:50 <r0kk3rz> or are the layoffs mostly only 'temporary' in this situation?
15:03:14 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz: yes, true. And obviously some people will find new jobs.
15:03:32 <sunweaver> I recently noticed that SfOS ships an outdate gnutls version. What is need to upgrade that?
15:03:37 <dr_gogeta86> some already got new one ...
15:03:50 <dr_gogeta86> sunweaver: #mer ?
15:04:29 <veskuh_> sunweaver: hmm. Stskeeps ^
15:04:30 <dr_gogeta86> last week we talked about backup plan  for online services ....
15:04:33 <Stskeeps> sunweaver: anything that deals with certain system library has a tendancy to cause what i call distribution jenga..
15:04:36 <sunweaver> does Jolla pull from Mer regularly?
15:04:43 <Stskeeps> sunweaver: yes
15:04:53 <Venty> Is Intex still working on releasing their phone given the recent events around Jolla and SfOS?
15:05:00 <dr_gogeta86> any action ?
15:05:41 <veskuh_> Venty: Obviously I cant talk on their behalf.
15:05:49 <Stskeeps> #topic Wrap up and next meeting (10 min)
15:06:13 <Stskeeps> right, who wants to chair next week? (i can't) - and is same time good for all?
15:06:20 <Venty> veskuh_: Okee.
15:06:31 <cybette> Stskeeps: I can chair next week
15:06:38 <Venty> veskuh_: Guess I'll try to ask their Twitter account or something.
15:06:43 <Stskeeps> #info cybette chairs next week
15:07:08 <dr_gogeta86> Venty: I don't think they answer
15:07:12 <cybette> however next thurs is Jolla's housewarming + christmas party, i don't know if anyone from Jolla will attend the meeting
15:07:19 <cybette> veskuh_: what do you think? ^
15:07:22 <Stskeeps> cybette: hrrm. that's a valid point
15:07:48 <Stskeeps> wednesday instead?
15:07:49 <M4rtinK> move to another day ?
15:07:53 <Venty> dr_gogeta86: Probably. But showing interest in their product cannot hurt, I guess.
15:07:55 <veskuh_> cybette: I'm planning to attend the party, depends on time if I can come here
15:08:08 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: wednesday would be better for me
15:08:17 <Stskeeps> cybette: wednesday okay for you?
15:08:23 <cybette> Stskeeps: yes
15:08:25 <Stskeeps> good
15:08:37 <dirkvl> wednesday is good for me also.
15:08:39 <Stskeeps> #info next meeting wednesday 9th
15:08:45 <Stskeeps> #info 14.30 UTC
15:08:55 <Stskeeps> OK, thank you all for coming and veskuh for representing jolla :)
15:08:59 <r0kk3rz> thanks for being our token sailor today veskuh_, its much appreciated given the circumstances
15:09:05 <veskuh_> thanks all
15:09:10 <cybette> thanks veskuh_ <3
15:09:12 <Venty> \O/
15:09:13 <Tofe> yes, thanks :)
15:09:19 <dr_gogeta86> tnx veskuh_
15:09:25 <iekku> thanks everyone and veskuh_ for update
15:09:30 <stephg> awsome sauce
15:09:51 <Stskeeps> #endmeeting