14:30:37 <Stskeeps> #startmeeting SailfishOS, open source, collaboration: 3 December @ 14:30 UTC 14:30:37 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 3 14:30:37 2015 UTC. The chair is Stskeeps. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings. 14:30:37 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:30:41 <Stskeeps> #info Welcome to another week of SailfishOS OSS and collaboration meeting 14:30:48 <Stskeeps> #info Agenda at https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2015-December/006784.html 14:30:51 <Stskeeps> #topic Brief introductions (5 min), prefix your information with #info 14:30:56 <Stskeeps> #info Carsten Munk, community member 14:31:14 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community member 14:31:18 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member 14:31:19 <cybette> #info Carol Chen, community member 14:31:20 <locusf> #info Aleksi Suomalainen, community member 14:31:26 <vgrade> #info Martin Brook, community 14:31:28 <JvD__> #info Tommi Keisala, community member 14:31:37 <Venty> #info Martin Ebnoether, community member 14:31:39 <seiichiro0185> #info Stefan Brand, community member 14:31:52 <Copernicus> #info John Pietrzak, community member 14:31:55 <Nokius_work> #info Julius-Paul Jann, community 14:32:01 <tortoisedoc> #info tortoisedoc community member, developer 14:32:23 <dirkvl> #info dirkvl, community member 14:32:24 <veskuh_> #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, Jolla, SW Program Manager 14:32:51 <nodevel> #info Jakub K., community member 14:33:25 <sunweaver> #info Mike Gabriel, community, Qt and Debian developer 14:34:51 <kimmoli> #info kimmo lindholm, community 14:34:55 <iekku> #info iekku pylkk�, community 14:35:03 <Stskeeps> #topic Jolla open sourcing update / company update (tortoisedoc) (20 minutes) 14:35:14 <Stskeeps> #info "what are the main difficulties internally against open sourcing? What is the current emergency status @ jolla (in colors only: green/yellow/orange/red, with green = OK red = KO; details of course welcomed but not mandatory for obvious reasons)?" 14:35:35 <Stskeeps> tortoisedoc: anything more to add than this, or elaborating? 14:35:42 <tortoisedoc> yes, 14:36:07 <tortoisedoc> or actually no, so that's all :) 14:36:26 <Stskeeps> veskuh_: maybe you'd like to say something about these topics? :) 14:36:49 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: yep 14:37:02 <veskuh_> So starting from OSS 14:37:14 <veskuh_> #info Internally in RnD we mostly worry about practical issues. How to ensure the quality of contributions, both in terms of code and user experience. 14:37:27 <veskuh_> #info How to have proper guidelines and process in place, how to keep release schedules and have proper platform development kits for community. 14:37:49 <veskuh_> #info How to do customer specific features, and new devices in open setup without leaking information that is not yet public. 14:38:08 <veskuh_> other than that engineers like OSS and would like to see more of it 14:38:33 <veskuh_> business side is more complex 14:38:55 <tortoisedoc> of course both sides need to be aligned in order for this to happen, me guesses 14:38:59 <veskuh_> yep 14:39:05 <veskuh_> #info On the business side, the issues are mainly related to discussions with potential investors, licensees, and partners. 14:39:06 <r0kk3rz> is there much resistance on the business side? or is it more the practical matters 14:39:36 <veskuh_> its related to discussion with investors and partners 14:39:49 <tortoisedoc> so IPR? 14:39:49 <veskuh_> #info Some investors and partners understand how open source is beneficial to the company, but some potential licensees or investors would see open source as something that cannot be monetized 14:40:24 <veskuh_> yes, both what is value of company and if license to partners what is the value 14:41:07 <tortoisedoc> I wonder how does Red hat for example approach such problem; and would it be possible to replicate? 14:41:54 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: I think they mostly get money from consulting, and in long term that would be potential alternative 14:41:57 <andybranson> redhat sell support, don't they? 14:42:15 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: however, in short term we need investment or good customer 14:43:10 <veskuh_> So shortly those are the main problems we have with open sourcing more 14:43:33 <tortoisedoc> so if correctly understood, its two problems; both process-wise, as well as business-wise 14:43:35 <Stskeeps> (not to mention that navigating such is hard in a debt restructuring scenario, i guess) 14:44:11 <sunweaver> about release schedules... I recommend package-wise update releases, at least for security issues. For a community driven project, pushing out distro bundle releases is not really doable. Furthermore, in community driven distros things are done when they are done. 14:44:48 <r0kk3rz> sunweaver: the problem with that is QA and end user experience 14:44:53 <mhall119> andybranson: who's going to buy support for their phone software? 14:45:00 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: yes, good point. 14:45:07 <r0kk3rz> a mobile phone is a little different to a free linux distro 14:45:13 <tortoisedoc> well we are all very much aware of the current situatio 14:45:14 <M4rtinK> device manufacturers 14:45:26 <tortoisedoc> let's focus on the possible solutions 14:45:31 <M4rtinK> mhall119: ^ 14:45:32 <sunweaver> the Debian project provides a lot of good examples how QA can be handled. 14:45:41 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 : users? 14:45:47 <tortoisedoc> M4rtinK : ^ 14:46:07 <M4rtinK> well, I can see also some users doing that 14:46:07 <mhall119> tortoisedoc: doubtful 14:46:25 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 : because of piracy? 14:46:30 <M4rtinK> as Androd just does not has this concept 14:46:51 <Tofe> mhall119: OSS doesn't necessarily change what you buy/don't buy 14:46:51 <M4rtinK> other than buying a new phone 14:46:51 <mhall119> tortoisedoc: no, because phone users don't like recurring costs for that kind of thing 14:46:55 <mhall119> nor do desktop users 14:47:01 <andybranson> mhall119: i would say oems. hw adaptations and porting new versions to it. 14:47:06 <mhall119> companies buy support, individuals don't 14:47:08 <tortoisedoc> mahll119 : but if it would be an "optional" cost 14:47:13 <tortoisedoc> as in, not mandatory 14:47:20 <sunweaver> A linux phone is a linux distro... you have packages, pstream code, security issues in upstream code, etc. 14:47:22 <tortoisedoc> in the form of "new features"? 14:47:36 <tortoisedoc> mhall119 ^ 14:47:43 <r0kk3rz> this could be a never ending discussion, maybe its best to get the second half out of the way? about the current status of jolla? 14:47:44 <mhall119> andybranson: OEMs would pay, yes, but that's not Red Hat's model 14:47:52 <M4rtinK> I can see users crowdfunding new features 14:47:52 <Stskeeps> since we have 8 minutes left, second part, current status of how jolla is doing? 14:48:01 <tortoisedoc> ok 14:48:04 <tortoisedoc> thanks!½ 14:48:10 <vgrade> SailfishOS native build of eth on Nexus 5, http://pastie.org/10596456 [B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[B[1;3C[1;3D[1;3D[1;3C 14:48:13 <M4rtinK> works for PyPy quite nicely 14:48:13 <mhall119> sorry to derail things :/ 14:48:50 <tortoisedoc> so whats the alarm status 14:48:55 <veskuh_> #info Jolla is in restructuring mode, where we are having minimal crew, but allmost all operations are still ongoing. 14:49:21 <veskuh_> #info harbout and care queues are long but still worked on 14:49:34 <iekku> harbour? 14:49:48 <veskuh_> iekku: yes, we have some testers still 14:49:57 <veskuh_> and I think over 30 apps in queue 14:50:07 <iekku> veskuh_, you had typo at info 14:50:20 <veskuh_> iekku: ah, thanks :) 14:50:33 <veskuh_> #info harbour queue is long but still being worked on 14:50:52 <veskuh_> #info RnD is working. 2.0.1 release is quite close, but due to lack of people unclear how soon we can get it out. There is work ongoing to following releases too. 14:51:07 <veskuh_> #info Shop is still up and running and selling Jollas 14:51:11 <hge> 24 in queue this afternoon 14:51:15 <hge> on harbour 14:51:18 <tortoisedoc> that raises a good question 14:51:20 <veskuh_> #info Business people are talking with potential investors and licensees 14:51:25 <tortoisedoc> how many jolla's are left to sell? 14:51:38 <veskuh_> so that summs up the situation based on what I know 14:51:52 <Venty> Ordered phones are being delivered still? 14:52:00 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: any token statement about status of tablet project? 14:52:08 <tortoisedoc> +veskuh_ : on the color scale, considering these infos and others you cant share, what is the outlook? 14:52:48 <Stskeeps> Venty: i've heard here was dhl/post strike or something like that in finland? dunno 14:52:50 <Coolgeek> for care, you said long. do you have some stats to share ? 14:52:55 <sunweaver> how many phones are available still? Nothing to worry about? 14:53:03 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz: I wouldn't want to comment on that. Our chairman knows the situation and tries to work out solution 14:53:09 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ : please do not hesitate to be frank :) 14:53:26 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: thanks, understandable its a touchy situation 14:53:29 <tortoisedoc> Stskeeps : yes strike is over now 14:53:35 <Venty> Stskeeps: Ah, you're right. I'm only asking because there is still interest in the phone in my peer group. 14:54:16 <Stskeeps> http://postandparcel.info/69718/news/finlands-postal-strike-update/ , but unsure if this is related to shipments or not 14:54:59 <Stskeeps> 1 minute to go 14:55:01 <Tofe> tortoisedoc: you'd like to know if it's yellow or orange, eh :) but it may depend on how optimistic the person is... Or ? 14:55:07 <cybette> Stskeeps: i think local shipments in Finland were affected 14:55:16 <tortoisedoc> Tofe : I want a realistic evaluation :P 14:55:20 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: Well, the situation is bad, but there is hope. We are having good discussions with partners and investors. 14:55:33 <tortoisedoc> (and anonymous) 14:55:42 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: I just really hope that those discussions come to good conclusions soon enough. 14:55:57 <Stskeeps> next topic.. :) 14:55:59 <r0kk3rz> so do we all veskuh_ 14:55:59 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ thanks for the info :) 14:56:03 <Stskeeps> #topic General discussions - everyone (10 min) 14:56:06 <stephg> sorry I'm late 14:56:22 <mhall119> veskuh_: any ETA on what that conclusion (either way) might happen? 14:56:24 * sunweaver hopes that, too... 14:56:38 <Stskeeps> thanks to vgrade for showing ethereum on nexus 5 / sailfishos: http://pastie.org/10596456 14:57:08 <stephg> cool 14:57:16 <veskuh_> mhall119: can't share anything precise 14:57:17 <vgrade> Stskeeps: wrong window but oh well 14:57:28 <Stskeeps> vgrade: still on-topic ;) 14:57:38 <dr_gogeta86> any plan for 2k16 14:57:50 <tortoisedoc> veskuh_ : is there a limited set of jollas (in the shop) for sale or will they keep on coming as long as they sell? 14:58:11 <r0kk3rz> dr_gogeta86: still be operating? anything else is a stretch goal at this stage i think 14:58:12 <sunweaver> How many Jollas are left for selling? 14:58:34 <Coolgeek> for care, you said long. do you have some stats to share ? 14:59:41 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: in your personal opinion, do you think the layoff of staff will have a lasting long term impact (in loss of knowledge) even if the funding resumes? 14:59:51 <veskuh_> tortoisedoc: the availability is somewhat limited and our financial position does constrain it a bit, but so far we have managed to get new ones to sell. Don't know how much they last though. 15:00:49 <Stskeeps> (5 minutes to go) 15:00:52 <sunweaver> veskuh_: thanks 15:01:27 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz: That may be a problem in short term, if key person is not available, in long term I think we can learn new things. 15:01:38 <tortoisedoc> thanks veskuh_ 15:02:36 <r0kk3rz> veskuh_: sure, but there is a lot of effort that goes into finding and employing competent people 15:02:50 <r0kk3rz> or are the layoffs mostly only 'temporary' in this situation? 15:03:14 <veskuh_> r0kk3rz: yes, true. And obviously some people will find new jobs. 15:03:32 <sunweaver> I recently noticed that SfOS ships an outdate gnutls version. What is need to upgrade that? 15:03:37 <dr_gogeta86> some already got new one ... 15:03:50 <dr_gogeta86> sunweaver: #mer ? 15:04:29 <veskuh_> sunweaver: hmm. Stskeeps ^ 15:04:30 <dr_gogeta86> last week we talked about backup plan for online services .... 15:04:33 <Stskeeps> sunweaver: anything that deals with certain system library has a tendancy to cause what i call distribution jenga.. 15:04:36 <sunweaver> does Jolla pull from Mer regularly? 15:04:43 <Stskeeps> sunweaver: yes 15:04:53 <Venty> Is Intex still working on releasing their phone given the recent events around Jolla and SfOS? 15:05:00 <dr_gogeta86> any action ? 15:05:41 <veskuh_> Venty: Obviously I cant talk on their behalf. 15:05:49 <Stskeeps> #topic Wrap up and next meeting (10 min) 15:06:13 <Stskeeps> right, who wants to chair next week? (i can't) - and is same time good for all? 15:06:20 <Venty> veskuh_: Okee. 15:06:31 <cybette> Stskeeps: I can chair next week 15:06:38 <Venty> veskuh_: Guess I'll try to ask their Twitter account or something. 15:06:43 <Stskeeps> #info cybette chairs next week 15:07:08 <dr_gogeta86> Venty: I don't think they answer 15:07:12 <cybette> however next thurs is Jolla's housewarming + christmas party, i don't know if anyone from Jolla will attend the meeting 15:07:19 <cybette> veskuh_: what do you think? ^ 15:07:22 <Stskeeps> cybette: hrrm. that's a valid point 15:07:48 <Stskeeps> wednesday instead? 15:07:49 <M4rtinK> move to another day ? 15:07:53 <Venty> dr_gogeta86: Probably. But showing interest in their product cannot hurt, I guess. 15:07:55 <veskuh_> cybette: I'm planning to attend the party, depends on time if I can come here 15:08:08 <veskuh_> Stskeeps: wednesday would be better for me 15:08:17 <Stskeeps> cybette: wednesday okay for you? 15:08:23 <cybette> Stskeeps: yes 15:08:25 <Stskeeps> good 15:08:37 <dirkvl> wednesday is good for me also. 15:08:39 <Stskeeps> #info next meeting wednesday 9th 15:08:45 <Stskeeps> #info 14.30 UTC 15:08:55 <Stskeeps> OK, thank you all for coming and veskuh for representing jolla :) 15:08:59 <r0kk3rz> thanks for being our token sailor today veskuh_, its much appreciated given the circumstances 15:09:05 <veskuh_> thanks all 15:09:10 <cybette> thanks veskuh_ <3 15:09:12 <Venty> \O/ 15:09:13 <Tofe> yes, thanks :) 15:09:19 <dr_gogeta86> tnx veskuh_ 15:09:25 <iekku> thanks everyone and veskuh_ for update 15:09:30 <stephg> awsome sauce 15:09:51 <Stskeeps> #endmeeting