13:30:33 #startmeeting SailfishOS, Open Source, Collaboration 5th of May 2016 13:30:33 Meeting started Thu May 5 13:30:33 2016 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings. 13:30:33 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 13:30:46 #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-May/007048.html 13:30:51 #info Amilcar Santos, App Developer 13:31:00 I am the meeting’s chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, be gentle and show due respect. 13:31:09 #topic Brief introduction (5 minutes). Please prefix your name/handle with # info 13:31:24 #info Kimmo Lindholm, community, porting, tohs and apps 13:31:31 rä 13:31:56 #info James Noori, Community Manager, first time chairperson, wish me luck! :) 13:32:04 #info Urja Rannikko, community ... 13:32:29 #info fravaccaro Jolla Community Italia 13:32:32 break a keyboard Jaymzz 13:32:39 #info Vesa-Matti Hartikainen, Program Manager at Jolla 13:32:44 #info schmittlauch, community member, early-acces tester, lurker 13:32:46 @Jaymzz good luck <3 13:32:48 #info Jarmo Koivunen. Community member. First time here. 13:32:49 #info Simonas Leleiva, hw & l10n @ Jolla 13:32:52 Thanks peeps! 13:33:01 #info Timur Kristóf, community member, developer 13:33:47 #info Philip, user & tjc 13:34:22 #info Pami Ketolainen, backend developer @ Jolla 13:34:40 please delay Qualcomm topic until end of this meeting... 13:34:49 One minute left :) 13:34:52 #info Swathilal, tjc member, well wisher, doesn't own a Jolla and first time here 13:34:57 Okay sure lpr__ 13:35:32 we shall begin in a few seconds with the fist topic. 13:35:50 #topic Why Jolla shows Android apps for their promotion? (5 min, asked by: luca247 ) 13:35:57 #info why everytime there is an event or a presentation jolla or other sailfish brands like intex are only showing android apps like whatsapp and not native ones like sailorgram or music library? 13:36:29 luca247 said please answer if he wasn't available, he will read the logs. Thanks! 13:37:29 Anyone? :) 13:38:02 guess someone from jolla should answer that 13:38:32 Veskuh or sledges m could anyone of you answer this? :) Not so much time left 13:38:55 that reminds me of previous discussion about android apps in jolla store - they should be clearly separated to promote nativeness 13:39:02 2 minutes left on this. 13:39:11 Jaymzz: well, events is more like comms area but I can give my view :) 13:39:28 i dont think anrdoid apps should even be in the jolla store ... 13:39:49 Irc relay bot fixed... Carry on :) (changing it to one way again) 13:40:00 I think in the beginning people were actually very curious on how well the ”must have” apps run on Jolla, since most people have not seen Jolla before 13:40:16 1 minute :) 13:40:22 Now Jolla users know that they run quite well, but native apps are nicer 13:40:52 But in events and such most people still have not seen jolla devices before so its important to show that mainstream apps work on the device 13:41:00 for people who have yet to try sailfish, how useful is it showing native apps? 13:41:12 We could try to push both of them! 13:41:25 beyond a 'look APPS' glance at the store 13:41:26 I'll give this topic one more minute 13:41:35 both would be fair 13:41:50 upstreams keep changing API (like facebook, or especially instagram - that broke recent development) 13:42:02 so what native-mainstream apps could we promote? 13:42:03 but native apps would help in showing gestures and potential of native offerings 13:42:05 Jaymzz: make a note, I think you will be part of planning next events :) 13:42:22 Alright Veskuh , moving on to the next topic 13:42:23 I guess showing off better examples of the Silica UI in use could be cool 13:42:27 #topic Permission to daemon and other forbidden components to the store (5 min, asked by: luca247 ) 13:42:34 #info Having some great apps on openrepos that aren’t allowed on the store doesn’t make a lot of sense. Understanding that Jolla needs to have a secure store, but when are we going to have more and better apps on the store? When will the rules change/improve? 13:43:00 ( veskuh: note taken! :) ) 13:43:13 luca247 community member...sorry for being late :p 13:43:42 No problem, Luca247 , welcome! we are covering your second topic now 13:43:47 right on time 13:43:47 Luca247: we're at the daemon part now 13:44:07 yep...right in time... 13:44:10 so 13:44:19 3 minutes left on this topic, anyone? :) 13:44:24 my question is simple 13:45:12 we have such great apps on openrepos like sailorgram but they are not permitted on the store because of daemons and other little things 13:45:22 why is that? 13:45:41 #info We have a very limited amount of people working on store QA at the moment 13:45:53 someone from community drafted a daemon permission model design couple of years ago - it was needed because otherwise apps could wreak havoc; i can try digging it or that person out, or simply lay precedent that we'd need such design document/brainstorm again 13:46:11 I never quite understoof why the authors of those apps don't write their apps in a way that they'd be allowed 13:46:25 sledges: yes, good idea 13:46:29 1 minute left, we could give it another extra minute if needed. 13:46:33 Venemo: you'd want your telegram client from jolla store to fetch messages while in suspend ;) 13:46:43 sailorgram for example has the option to turn off the daemon 13:46:57 Venemo: some of us cant be bothered to bend over backwards for harbour restrictions 13:46:58 sledges: the IRC app can work while the phone is suspended, can't it. so why couldn't the telegram client work too? 13:47:07 but IM apps could go through telepathy integration instead 13:47:23 IM apps *should* go through telepathy 13:47:35 going through the extra minute :) 13:47:43 but AFAIK telepathy doesn't support some important things so nobody bothers 13:47:45 but telepathy should then be reworked to allow all bells'n'whistles (images, voice recs) 13:47:58 daemons were an example anyway 13:48:11 there are lot other things not allowed in store 13:48:19 i thought the major holdup was the UI for chat/text 13:48:20 well, we allowed positioning (finally:) 13:48:28 harbour apps can't access to stuff like calendar events, can they? 13:48:36 We are doing some roadmapping this month and should evaluate again what improvements to Harbour QA and rules would be most useful and would not burden the QA too much 13:48:36 but not location (i don't know the difference, or was it vice versa) 13:48:37 and allowing accounts menu integration 13:48:49 Okay another extra minute would not hurt! it's going well still :) 13:49:09 Jaymzz: 5min really isnt enough time anyway, 10min should be minimum 13:49:10 #info Jolla is doing some roadmapping this month and should evaluate again what improvements to Harbour QA and rules would be most useful and would not burden the QA too much 13:49:22 * cybette late to the party and lurking 13:49:27 i perfectly understand jolla want a clean store to stay trouble free but hey we are all sailors at the end and apart from phonebook and patches we know apps don't harm the phone 13:49:32 that was the proposed time! But okay will make it 10 min instead. 13:49:36 :) 13:49:41 #info time changed to 10 min instead 13:49:45 3 min left 13:50:25 Jaymzz: maybe we should revisit this once that roadmapping that sledges said is done 13:50:53 Venemo: sure! 2 min and then we'll move on. Any final comments sledges or veskuh? 13:51:01 Venemo: i'll ask Dax (author of SailorGram) what prevents entering harbour, and suggest to look at communi (irc for sfos) sources for daemonology :) 13:51:09 Put what would your input be to planning? 13:51:20 looking code, there are custom notifications too 13:51:27 Venemo: has this not been a recurring topic for years? :P 13:51:28 which afaiu are also nono 13:51:31 we don't have any daemon, the app runs in the background and it just works. 13:51:46 r0kk3rz: I haven't heard about this problem yet 13:51:48 the app has to stay open though 13:51:58 yeah, sure 13:52:02 which may or may not happen *cough*oomkiller*cough* 13:52:04 it has to stay open 13:52:23 Alright moving on people, we will get back to this topic in a latr meeting! 13:52:29 #topic Upgrading Qt to latest upstream (5-10 minutes, asked by Venemo ) 13:52:37 #info 1) Is it among the plans to upgrade to the latest upstream Qt version? 2) What are the main roadblocks to upgrading Qt? 3) How can the community help with this? 13:52:49 yeah 13:52:58 #info given the previous topic's experience we'll give this 10 min as well. 13:53:30 Qt is binary compatible between the same major release, so I don't see why it isn't updated regularly 13:53:54 unless jolla uses some private API, it should be safe 13:54:00 Venemo: because if you want to get something at product quality, you can't just grab the latest release, compile it, and call it a day 13:54:22 w00t: yeah, that's why I asked. :) I'm interested in knowing more. 13:54:26 #info Yes, we want to upgrade Qt. Our previous upgrade took a lot of time and effort so this time we have be careful. 13:54:26 * sledges was about to write: "and may the w00t be with us" :)) 13:54:41 lol :D 13:54:48 i don't remember the exact amount of work now, as it was a while ago -- but the current release has something like 100-200 backports on top of the last "official" 5.2 release (plus a whole lot more inside qtqml that i can't even count) 13:55:12 it was a cumulative big pile of work to get it done and in good shape 13:55:14 so, why don't you run 5.6? what exactly is blocking you from just using it? 13:55:23 that having been said, i'd like to see it move to something newer 13:55:46 old releases lack things (duh), but they also have a lot of bugs that need workarounds (bad), and worse still - security holes 13:55:55 yeah, that's why I asked 13:55:57 w00t: is there anything the community can do to help this situation? 13:56:12 r0kk3rz: not sure.. 13:56:20 I'd be especially interested in using the Qt Bluetooth module, especially the BTLE API 13:56:26 make mer/glacier boot? 13:56:29 but that's not available on Sailfish 13:56:42 Venemo: for that we need Bluez update too 13:56:44 i started taking a look at 5.5 last year, and it didn't look like getting things at least compiling was going to be awfully difficult, but the effort that will need to go on top of that is unknown 13:56:49 i think i'd aim at 5.6 now 13:56:54 veskuh: should work with your version, IIRC 13:57:10 it should be around for quite a long time, which is good news 13:57:22 sledges: that might be something to think about indeed 13:57:23 sorry I'm late... Community. (mostly lurking) 13:57:33 veskuh: the docs say it works with bluez 4.x/5.x 13:57:42 IIRC you guys have 4.x, right? 13:57:48 nnah :P 13:57:52 5.2 (plus bits of 5.4, 5.3, ...) 13:57:56 it's a bit of a mix 13:58:00 talking about bluez 13:58:04 oh. :) 13:58:08 i understood too late ;) 13:58:09 Venemo: yes, but we don’t have BTLE on BlueZ 4 at the moment 13:58:36 what's blocking it? 13:58:44 #info community could bring qt 5.6 to mer/nemo/glacier , via :next repos/branches ? 13:59:22 (same is being done with aarch64 by ghosalmartin the porter ;)) 13:59:25 i think this is soemthing that we should really consider sticking on the roadmap, or at least discussing (veskuh) 13:59:48 even if nothing else, the security aspect of sticking with stuff this old is not a good idea 14:00:00 w00t: yes, it is starting to be right time soon 14:00:01 w00t: since you brought up the roadmap... when was the last time anyone updated it? 14:00:36 I mean this: https://sailfishos.org/developmentroadmap/ 14:00:39 2 minutes left on this topic! 14:01:12 moving to the LTS release 5.6 would be a wise idea 14:01:41 the reason I brought up Qt at all is because 14:01:44 1min and we'll move on 14:01:48 Venemo: i don't know the answer to that, but probably not for some time 14:01:54 plus blink :P 14:02:05 oh 14:02:08 it's on therE: "Last updated: September 9, 2015" 14:02:21 SFOS is a Qt-based platform, so how come that I can use Qt 5.x (x=latest) on all major platforms (competitors), but not on a platform that is actually Qt-based 14:02:27 to me, that's absurd 14:02:35 the community is really drooling for the new webkit whatever it was called 14:02:54 alright shall we move on or extra time is needed? 14:02:54 on 5.6 14:03:11 qtwebengine? 14:03:18 toxxip: the qtwebengine thing? 14:03:30 nh1402_work: i think it was that yeah 14:03:37 Ok moving on to the next topic :) 14:03:41 #topic Built-in icon pack support (5-10 minutes, asked by fravaccaro ) 14:03:47 #info Built-in icon pack support some details about the topic: Folder trees, conf files and dconf keys are already in place for a native, built-in icon packs support for Sailfish OS. Albeit non essential in the current situation, I would like to know if there's any plan to add the missing bits in the QML files. 14:04:03 #info We'll give this one 10 minutes as well 14:04:28 okay, but shouldn't there be some wrap up or conclusion to the previous topic first? 14:05:14 I asked if more time is needed no one replied so I thought that means moving on :) Let's get back to this by the end of the meeting Venemo ? 14:05:17 Venemo: conclusion is its a big task with little the community can do to progress 14:05:39 also yes, we plan to do it, but timing is not clear yet 14:05:43 okay. 14:05:44 fravaccaro: it's your topic :) feel free to elaborate 14:06:19 well, there's not that much to add, digging I noticed there are some bits already in place for a proper icon packs support 14:06:40 it's not essential, but, well, it would be nice to have some mmore customization on the platform :) 14:06:46 icon packs = 3rd party icons? 14:06:49 fravaccaro: you mean different icon themes? 14:07:13 yup 14:07:57 in /usr/share/icons there's the hicolor folder with a xdg-compliant index.theme file 14:08:24 #info With the new customer projects we are having, a bit more configuration options such as theming has been requested. Icon pack support might be one of the things we want to support. 14:08:34 thats the application icons then 14:08:36 the only showstopper seems to be jolla icons hard-coded into the qml files 14:08:58 also for /usr/share/themes , which contains jolla default apps 14:09:48 there was some change on 2.0.1. jolla ambient become sailfish default (iirc) 14:10:10 with this patch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fravaccaro/themepacksupport-sailfishos/robust_icons/harbour-themepacksupport/usr/share/patchmanager/themepack-custom_icondirs/unified_diff.patch and changing a dconf key sailfish os can use different icon packs, both for default and native apps 14:10:22 correct :) 14:11:13 3 minutes left, time to begin concluding :) 14:11:14 #link https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fravaccaro/themepacksupport-sailfishos/robust_icons/harbour-themepacksupport/usr/share/patchmanager/themepack-custom_icondirs/unified_diff.patch 14:12:01 i guess this is on of those few places jolla will need to revisit once implementing more custom icon set requests 14:12:11 i.e. remove hardcodes 14:13:05 1 minute and moving on :) 14:13:16 thanks for the find, fravaccaro! 14:13:49 so is there a chance to see it implemented, at some point in the future? 14:14:04 @sledges my pleasure :) 14:14:11 veskuh said above with #info ;) 14:14:38 Alright then, moving on to the last topic for the day 14:14:44 #topic Upgrading Jolla 1 Android drivers to Android 4.4 level (15 mins, asked by lpr__ ) 14:14:48 ouch, I missed it :D 14:14:56 #info some critical bugs in qualcomm drivers were discovered and fixed drivers are only available on android-4.4.4 level, so an upgrade is needed 14:14:56 alright 14:15:03 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/132122/upgrade-qualcomm-android-drivers-to-kitkat44-level/ 14:15:19 thanks for the answer veskuh 14:15:34 15 minutes on this topic starts now :) 14:16:31 it seems there are no different drivers and galaxy S4 mini uses same drivers as Jolla1, am I right? 14:17:03 they just need an update... 14:18:32 drivers and kernel seem to be android api 17 to 19 capable... 14:19:09 we had community port of nexus 4 on jellybeans, that has successfully went onto kitkat, but that's the whole underlying adaptations that had to change (and libhybris bits on top) 14:19:22 would Qualcomm even supply the updated bits to jolla? 14:19:31 isn't jolla 4.1, which is api level 16 ? 14:19:53 sledges: but that's a software thing 14:19:55 Stskeeps/Sage_ could have more insight on the scope of this ^^ 14:20:39 the driver/kernel combo has to be api>16 14:20:47 lpr__: it is software thing yes 14:21:14 on nexus 5 everyone has been swapping sensors .so file around from different versions to fight battery drain bug, that seemed to work 14:21:25 so your statement is valid: 16:18 < lpr__> drivers and kernel seem to be android api 17 to 19 capable... 14:21:33 so updating drivers must be possible 14:21:42 but only if jolla was api level >=17 14:22:01 no, aliendalvik is a different thing... 14:22:02 Venemo: I think for Jolla1 the drivers were part of ODM delivery, so any update we’d need to work with them 14:22:06 i'm not sure it is (if it's so, then it's only swapping the driver bit, without world's rebuild) 14:22:10 sledges: and a rebase to 12.1 has also been done for the nexus 5 14:22:16 lpr__: i'm not talking about aliendalvik 14:22:36 ok 14:22:58 galaxy S4 never had 4.1 level 14:23:00 which provided rock solid bluetooth connection compared to the 11 base before. 14:23:01 I'd like to see both updated to 4.4 level (drivers and dalvik) :P 14:23:25 so i doubt the low level stack has... 14:23:54 in low level you'd be talking more about abi compatibility, not api 14:23:55 sledges, without a flasher public avaiable flasher thinkering is scaring 14:23:59 but yea, needs looking into 14:24:41 dr_gogeta86: i don't suggest you tinker with those:)) yet swapping a wlan.ko should be doable for a test, kernel sources are available 14:25:40 I still dream an ext4 fs based image for sbj 14:25:48 ok ok... 14:25:48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history#Android_4.2.E2.80.934.2.2_Jelly_Bean_.28API_level_17.29 14:25:49 4.2 came out with 3.4 kernel 14:25:58 undefined scope, ODM help needed, limited internal resources, aging device. Id be filing this in the "soon" category 14:26:05 #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history#Android_4.2.E2.80.934.2.2_Jelly_Bean_.28API_level_17.29 14:26:29 r0kk3rz, for the record sbj aged better then most sammy and thcs ... 14:26:30 lpr__: 4.4 is also 3.4 14:26:37 yes 14:26:49 but 4.1.3 is not 14:27:04 dr_gogeta86: sure, but now jolla have new devices to worry about, where as before they didnt 14:27:05 4.1.2 sorry 14:27:16 but switch the numbers in the kernel version around and you still won't get the latest linux kernel! 14:27:34 what new devices? 14:27:39 are there gonna be new devices? 14:27:47 i'm not asking new kernel... 14:28:15 Venemo: tablet, intex, turing... 14:28:20 Venemo: I think they're referring to Intex Aqua fish, Turing phone and mi-phone 14:28:27 tablet = intel 14:28:30 and a secret device 14:28:40 (from press release) 14:28:51 sledges: sneaky :3 14:29:06 intex semms to have different hw, snapdragon212 14:29:27 sledges: you'll need to dodge now 14:29:35 r0kk3rz: is there a new tablet? 14:29:53 Time to think about a conclusion guys! 1 minute left out of 15 :) Could do with a little extra minute. 14:29:58 I think he was referring to the Jolla Tablet 14:30:00 there shouldn't be! 14:30:16 Venemo: jolla tablets were delivered, and will need supporting, even if its <1000 14:30:27 topic is JOLLA1 14:30:44 #blame sledges 14:31:05 #info Jolla will look at the scope of this task 14:31:22 lpr__: sorry, i derailed that slightly, point was i dont see it happening due to other devices coming on the market 14:31:22 miphone ? 14:31:56 Alright then, with sledges saying that I think this topic is coming to an end too! Anything more? or shall we end the meeting? 14:31:58 That was the african licensee was it not 14:32:19 that actually had a confirmed release quarter of Q2 2016 iirc 14:32:22 Jaymzz: don't end before #AOB and #next-meeting topics :) 14:32:52 sledges : right :D 14:32:53 at the moment there are no other devices available in EU 14:33:34 Jaymzz: Is there a general discussion coming? 14:33:37 lpr__: regulatory domains aside, they're still taking up internal resources 14:34:01 ok that points for new features 14:34:13 not for security issues 14:34:35 #topic General discussion (10 minutes) 14:34:44 lpr__: cough glibc cough 14:34:56 schmittlauch there :) 14:35:02 tigeli: what is stagefright doing? 14:35:31 scaring people off the stage by the sounds of it 14:35:39 schmittlauch: ? 14:36:52 sledges: so, the mystery is a device then? since the PR says 'device related' 14:36:53 schmittlauch: at least most scaring cve fixed there... 14:37:41 r0kk3rz: or a device EOL for sbj... 14:37:44 sledges: dodge this! 14:37:53 that'd be device-related too :P 14:38:08 A question that came to my mind after the harbour-and-daemon thing: Currently Jolla doesn't seem to have a good security/permissons model like granting some applications access to contacts, position, etc. while preventing others from access. 14:38:18 tigeli: the list of stagefright cve's is growing fast, it seems 14:38:19 Yaniel: that'd be just evil :D 14:38:32 lpr__: Yeah, but i took a while. And it's currently only out for early-access 14:38:32 r0kk3rz: it's the whole programme ;P 14:38:39 schmittlauch: that was answered in the last meeting, I think 14:38:58 Any (un)official videos on the Turing phone with SailfishOS? 14:39:05 sledges: i will eagerly await the announcement then :) 14:39:16 It seems the current security model is based on not letting bad apps pass through harbour 14:39:26 o/ sorry I'm late 14:39:36 nh1402_work (IRC): you mean the permissons thing? 14:39:37 boo stephg :D 14:39:44 schmittlauch: that about sums it up yes 14:40:06 sledges: busy day :( 14:40:15 stephg: tell me about it :D 14:40:20 also fine weather! 14:40:23 unobtainium, isn't that the thing with which you can go to the core... ? 14:40:25 worst combo 14:40:28 sledges ditto! 14:40:44 schmittlauch: yes 14:41:09 Are there plans to provide a 'real' permission model, maybe as part of the sailfish-secure collaboration? Because the current situation is a bad joke, especially when advertising sfos with "security!!!" 14:41:45 nh1402_work (IRC): Ok, I then have to go through the logs. Dont't remeber having seen that in last meeting 14:41:49 schmittlauch: Yeah, we know we need to improve on that, and there has been prototyping work done earlier but we do need to revisit those plans too since people changed and strategy is also a bit different now 14:42:41 do it right, i dont think the android "i'll use all of these or you cant install me" kind of model is useless 14:42:52 the list can be a mile long and nobody bothers with them 14:43:01 schmittlauch: permission model of google play should also not let bad apps through.. 14:43:02 urjaman: that changed with Marshmallow 14:43:17 veskuh: Ok, I'm happy if it lands on the roadmap 14:43:20 #info Jolla will revisit security plans for Sailfish OS since the changed strategy 14:43:25 *i think the android ... model i useless 14:43:29 *is 14:44:03 there are some threads in tjc about this topic, e.g. https://together.jolla.com/question/5516/what-kind-of-security-model-does-jolla-have/ 14:44:13 urjaman: its not useless, just people do strange things like install apps with large pervasive permissions lists anyway 14:44:15 urjaman (IRC): Current Android versions provide a more fine-grained control, similar to what iOS does: Apps still have to work when being denied some permissons 14:44:21 #link https://together.jolla.com/question/5516/what-kind-of-security-model-does-jolla-have/ 14:44:49 Shall we move on? :) Or is there more? 14:44:54 kimmoli: I think there's a thread in TJC for nearly every important topic - and it hasn't been updated since 2014 (; 14:45:14 yeah that was gravedigging... 14:45:26 but the situation hasnt changed since day0 14:45:43 i btw just answered one of my own questions in tjc since i happened to go there for the 4.4 thing :P 14:45:55 schmittlauch : TJC will be taken care of as soon as wl have a bit more man power. I'm currently visiting there quite frequently but it needs more effort 14:45:55 but you get necromancer-badge when answering those :P 14:46:15 An interesting idea of cyanogenmod is instead of denying permissions they allow giving fake data like fake position, an empty address book, etc. 14:46:18 i already have that 14:46:41 8 14:46:42 Alright people time is running out! 14:46:45 (not an empty address book, the necromancer badge) 14:47:09 we shall move on to the next topic in a few seconds 14:47:33 #topic Next meeting date 14:47:34 Jaymzz: Great. Nevertheless I think that this won't help resolving those really old, really big issues 14:47:52 #info I propose 19th of May , 13:30 UTC. 14:47:58 does that work for everyone? 14:48:09 schmittlauch Yeah I understand! 14:48:12 Jaymzz: +1 14:48:23 Jaymzz: good for me :) 14:49:03 Please do not forget to propose your topics here on TJC https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/ 14:49:27 if everyone is okay with the next date, we can end the meeting :) 14:50:12 Alrigh seems everyone is okay with zero complaints! 14:50:27 Thanks all for attending, I'll email the minutes as usual :) 14:50:40 #endmeeting