09:00:53 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, Open Source, Collaboration 1st of July 2016
09:00:53 <merbot> Meeting started Fri Jul  1 09:00:53 2016 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
09:00:53 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
09:01:01 <Jaymzz> #info meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007150.html
09:01:09 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting's chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, be gentle and show due respect.
09:01:20 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 minutes) . Please prefix your name/handle with # info
09:01:31 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori, Community Manager, at your service
09:01:48 <jpetrell> #info Joona Petrell, UI Chief Engineer
09:01:57 <Jaymzz> did the bot change the topic?
09:02:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> #info Martin Kolman, community member & modRana developer
09:02:19 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community developer
09:02:40 <Venty> #info Martin Ebnöther, community member
09:02:41 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, jolla pootle & hw
09:02:53 <Tofe> #info Christophe Chapuis, community member
09:02:54 <jpetrell> Jaymzz: agenda link you point to refers to June 2nd https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007150.html
09:03:06 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community, developping sometime
09:03:35 <Jaymzz> jpetrell: Yes I made a mistake in copying that! I will find and change the link
09:04:36 <Jaymzz> #info  correct link : meeting information and agenda can be found here:     https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2016-June/007223.html
09:05:46 <Jaymzz> moving on in 2 minutes :)
09:07:09 <Jaymzz> Alright moving to the first topic
09:07:13 <Jaymzz> #topic UI interaction slowness (10 minutes, asked by: ApB)
09:07:23 <Jaymzz> #info: The introduction of SF2.0 brought a new -and in many cases improved- UI but also made some actions significantly slower than what it was with SF1.0 (ie locking the phone by gestures requires two motions instead of one). So are there any plans to address issues related to the above.
09:07:31 <ApBBB> So. SFOS2 introduced some changes to the UI and in some cases it slowed things down interaction wise (ie lock/blank the screen now requires a swipe and a tap). Also something that hasn't got attention since the beginning is duplication of gestures that if removed could make things faster (IMO at least))
09:07:52 <ApBBB> Are there any people looking into stuff like that?
09:08:19 <jpetrell> we made lock screen transition faster on 2.0.2 so it wouldn't be so slow
09:08:41 <ApBBB> slow in terms of gestures needed
09:09:21 <r0kk3rz> it was said at the time that 2.X was going to be less 'efficient' on jphone than 1.X
09:09:31 <r0kk3rz> but compromises were made for the tablet
09:09:53 <jpetrell> we did a lot of user studies with sailfish 2.0, built dozen prototypes, while there are many useful power user gestures they often consume other users
09:10:20 <ApBBB> screen wake is also slow with the fade in animation (ie you double tap and wait instead of just waking up)
09:10:25 <jpetrell> top gesture to blank was seen as error by many
09:10:28 <Jaymzz> #info jpetrell: we did a lot of user studies with sailfish 2.0, built dozen prototypes, while there are many useful power user gestures they often consume other users
09:10:57 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: you have a dedicated hardware button, the gesture is just candy
09:11:13 <jpetrell> rokk3rz: I don't think sailfish 2.0 is a compromise for phones
09:11:37 <jpetrell> ApBBB: "screen wake is also slow with the fade in animation" that what I was referring to above
09:11:55 <r0kk3rz> afaik jaako said something along those lines, but i guess we're all used to it by now
09:12:13 <ApBBB> ok i get that -studies- but any chance of letting us customize gestures? Ie we have 2 minimize gestures (swipe left or right) and depending on settings no way to close an app. One of the duplicates could be used for close
09:13:09 <jpetrell> ApBBB: problem with customisation is that it adds combinations that we have to test, e.g. if you request that old implementation should still be optional it means we have to maintain two features: the old and the new
09:13:33 <ApBBB> by screen lock i meant when you swipe from the top to lock it. You swipe and you get the ambiance changer and lock which you must tap
09:13:37 <jpetrell> it increases maintenance and testing effort and makes the code order of magnitude more complex and thus buggy
09:13:57 <sledges> ApBBB: left or swipe is already customisable to bring events view
09:13:57 <jpetrell> so we try to avoid adding too many settings
09:14:02 <sledges> -or
09:14:13 <Jaymzz> #info gerture customisation adds combinations that we have to test, e.g. if you request that old implementation should still be optional it means we have to maintain two features: the old and the new
09:14:17 <jpetrell> also settings and modes risk confusing the UX
09:14:41 <Jaymzz> 3 minutes left
09:15:31 <ApBBB> sledges: i would like it if you could add a customization option to swipe from left and close the app
09:16:05 <sledges> closing app from top is coming from N9 times
09:16:10 <sledges> we wouldn't want to fragment that any further
09:16:31 <Jaymzz> 1 min left, please wrap up :)
09:16:36 <M4rtinK_phone_> BTW, swipe up from the bottom for the event screen made a lot of sense
09:16:55 <ApBBB> i hear you but in case you activate that you get the same gesture doing two things
09:16:58 <ballock_> ApBBB: you can still close the app from top; it's just the screen locking that's more problematic
09:17:07 <jpetrell> quote from our homescreen developer Andrew "Options are often easy to add but the more there are and the more obscure and unlikely to be actively used by developers they are the more likely they are to break and stay that way unnoticed. Complexity increases exponentially with options, after all a simple binary option can double the number of scenarios that can play out for an interaction. "
09:17:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> at least I am much more likely to need the event screen than the app drawer
09:17:13 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: depends what you need more often during the day - launch an app or check an event (and for event is already a shortcut, see above)
09:17:28 <Jaymzz> #info "Options are often easy to add but the more there are and the more obscure and unlikely to be actively used by developers they are the more likely they are to break and stay that way unnoticed. Complexity increases exponentially with options, after all a simple binary option can double the number of scenarios that can play out for an interaction. "
09:17:49 <Jaymzz> Alright we shall move on in a sec
09:17:51 <nh1402_work> I found swiping from left for the events screen a lot more natural
09:17:57 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: i got used to bottom drawer and couldn't live without, so each to their own i guess, we just try to deliver best middle ground possible
09:18:12 <M4rtinK_phone_> sledges: 99% its the event screen
09:18:32 <M4rtinK_phone_> i just start some apps once and leave them running
09:18:32 <sledges> nh1402_work: disagree, i'm right handed and can't reach left edge witih my thumb on jollac ;)
09:18:42 <sledges> so, conclusion: can't please everyone:)
09:18:43 <r0kk3rz> remember these things are *personal* devices, and so being able to fir your UX to you is important
09:18:46 <M4rtinK_phone_> twitter, browser and messages
09:18:59 <ApBBB> sledges: thats a size issue
09:19:01 <ApBBB> :P
09:19:01 <sledges> r0kk3rz: introduce a tweakUI app? ;) (it's already 2nd time we mention it here:)
09:19:07 * kimmoli made a PSA and then missed the start myself...
09:19:10 <M4rtinK_phone_> +1
09:19:16 <Jaymzz> Okay things are getting personal, moving to the next topic:D
09:19:21 <Jaymzz> #topic Requesting things to be added to mer-tools repo (5 minutes, asked by: toxip)
09:19:26 <sledges> ApBBB: it's how you use it ;P
09:19:26 <jpetrell> please give feedback, when we hear from multiple fronts about an UX issue we do try to address it, but we cannot make a toolbox UI for all
09:19:29 <Jaymzz> #info: Noticed that some basic tools like wget are not included in the mer-tools repo. How could we request things to be added to the repository?
09:19:35 <M4rtinK_phone_> even an unsupported tweak app would help
09:19:54 <sledges> yep, unsupported tweakUI +1
09:20:00 <Jaymzz> #info related to previous topic: please give feedback, when we hear from multiple fronts about an UX issue we do try to address it, but we cannot make a toolbox UI for all
09:20:04 <ApBBB> jpetrell: where do you want that feed back. TJC your email ?
09:20:14 <jpetrell> ApBBB: together jolla
09:20:25 <ApBBB> deal
09:20:29 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: ok to tag you in it?
09:20:32 <jpetrell> sure
09:20:52 <Jaymzz> Guys it is already next topic :)
09:21:01 <Jaymzz> Is it me, or the bot does not change topics?
09:21:06 <jpetrell> we are not a big team, so please be patient when waiting for replys
09:21:20 <jpetrell> Jaymzz: sorry! :)
09:21:37 <Jaymzz> Okay we start again :)
09:21:38 <Jaymzz> #topic Requesting things to be added to mer-tools repo (5 minutes, asked by: toxip)
09:21:51 <Jaymzz> #info: Noticed that some basic tools like wget are not included in the mer-tools repo. How could we request things to be added to the repository?
09:21:59 <Jaymzz> Now it changes topics
09:22:39 <jpetrell> lbt: ^^
09:22:41 <sledges> in case lbt is not around atm, i'll quote what he said yesterday on here:
09:22:42 <sledges> < lbt> mer-tools is open for new tools (and updates to existing tools)
09:23:01 <Jaymzz> #info < lbt> mer-tools is open for new tools (and updates to existing tools)
09:23:39 <Jaymzz> That's it? I guess toxip is not available to discuss either
09:23:40 * lbt wasn't really paying attention but yep, that's right
09:23:42 <M4rtinK_phone_> even GPLv3 based updates ? ;-)
09:23:55 <lbt> yes for tools
09:23:55 <sledges> i guess pinging him on #mer or filing a bug to https://bugs.merproject.org is best? lbt :)
09:24:02 <M4rtinK_phone_> eq. GPLv2 wget from the middle ages
09:24:10 <jpetrell> M4rtinK_phone_: yeah tools are not in official releases so GPLv3 is fine
09:24:18 <lbt> mer-core is different as it goes on the device
09:24:42 <M4rtinK_phone_> jpetrell: sounds promissing!
09:24:46 <Jaymzz> #info  tools are not in official releases so GPLv3 is fine
09:25:06 <r0kk3rz> cool, ive had packages to put in mertools for years
09:25:20 <Jaymzz> 1 minute remaining, let's wrap up
09:26:14 <Jaymzz> Well I guess that's it. so moving on in 30 sec
09:26:45 <Jaymzz> #topic Qt future (10 minutes, asked by: nh1402)
09:26:53 <Jaymzz> #info from QT 5.7 onwards it is no longer licensed under LGPL 2.1 does that affect us?
09:27:36 <Jaymzz> nh1402_work : you there? :)
09:27:39 <nh1402_work> yes
09:27:47 <Jaymzz> Alright let's discuss
09:27:52 <nh1402_work> I thought the question was self explanatory
09:27:59 <jpetrell> Qt 5.6 is long term release so the license change is not acute problem
09:28:05 * Jaymzz points to others :D
09:28:10 <Yaniel> what is it licensed as then?
09:28:19 <Jaymzz> #info Qt 5.6 is long term release so the license change is not acute problem
09:28:42 <jpetrell> more and more open source world is moving to LGPLv3 so we need to revisit our license policy
09:28:45 <r0kk3rz> yeah, lets get on 5.6 first :)
09:29:03 <Jaymzz> #info more and more open source world is moving to LGPLv3 so we need to revisit our license policy
09:29:31 <jpetrell> such things need to be approved by our investors first, so cannot really comment more
09:29:41 <Tofe> Has there been a prototypish try to move to Qt 5.6 already ? just to see the efforts involved ?
09:29:59 <jpetrell> Tofe: we are working on upgrading to Qt 5.6, compared to Qt 5.2 upgrade few years back this time has been much less painful
09:30:01 <M4rtinK_phone_> check the mer gitlub activity log
09:30:02 <nh1402_work> it's not an immediate problem was just thinking if we can't update QT from here
09:30:23 <Jaymzz> #info we are working on upgrading to Qt 5.6
09:30:30 <jpetrell> we've already got most Qt-based libraries building on top of Qt 5.6, but more maturisation is needed
09:30:37 <M4rtinK_phone_> lot of ongoing Qt 5.6 activity there
09:30:53 <nh1402_work> is there a timeframe for the QT5.6 release? or once it's stable it'll roll out
09:31:36 <jpetrell> no strict timeline, we need to do few full testing rounds to see what issues surface
09:31:41 <jpetrell> and then we'll know better
09:31:47 <nh1402_work> fair enough
09:32:00 <jpetrell> but its not many months away
09:32:02 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: fingers crossed!
09:32:32 <M4rtinK_phone_> lets hope that estimate holds :-)
09:32:59 <jpetrell> yes :)
09:33:11 <ApBBB> estimates never hold. :P
09:33:42 <jpetrell> well fuzzy estimates like "many months" just might
09:33:53 <Jaymzz> 3 minutes left!
09:34:11 <Tofe> a bit offtopic, but for LuneOS it has used Qt 5.6 for a couple of months now and it's working pretty well; so I'm optimistic for your case too :)
09:35:10 <Jaymzz> We can already move on if you guys are done with this topic
09:35:15 <nh1402_work> I am
09:35:20 <Jaymzz> alright cool
09:35:32 <Jaymzz> #topic Update outdated packages (10 minutes, asked by OhDaeto)
09:35:39 <Jaymzz> #info Sailfish OS (Nemo) contains a lot of outdated and officialy unsupported packages in repos. For example, there is Perl package version 5.16.1 while Cent OS 7 / RHEL supports 5.16.3. So I would like to know how the community can help you to update your packages and projects to latest actual versions, and which parts you think are the most weakest. Thanks in advance and sorry for my poor English. Hope you understood what I want to ask
09:35:39 <Jaymzz> :)
09:36:40 <jpetrell> create pull requests in mer-core for the packages, test on your jolla 1/c/tablet, fix bugs in related mw
09:37:18 <Jaymzz> #info create pull requests in mer-core for the packages, test on your jolla 1/c/tablet, fix bugs in related mw
09:37:54 <jpetrell> lately we have been putting more effort in upgrading the mw (fontconfig, tracker, etc.)
09:38:07 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: that is dependent on licence changes too yeah?
09:38:28 <jpetrell> rokk3rz: in many cases yes
09:38:43 <jpetrell> justifying technical debt work in business terms is often difficult, in short term upgrades often mean regression which has negative value
09:39:28 <urjaman> you should do it anyways, or end up a dinosaur
09:39:34 <jpetrell> yes
09:40:24 <jpetrell> longer you wait harder upgrading is, and why use open source if you don't merge upstream contributions/bug fixes
09:42:27 <Jaymzz> so I think the person who proposed this topic is not available and the discussion is not on-going. Right?
09:42:50 <jpetrell> yes
09:43:04 <ApBBB> he also got an answer by chria adam(i think) yesterday
09:43:09 <ApBBB> chris
09:43:19 <jpetrell> chris adams
09:43:20 <Jaymzz> we have 2 more minutes on this. I think I'll skip it and move to general discussion then :)
09:43:30 <Jaymzz> #topic General discussion (15 minutes)
09:44:27 <jpetrell> how many are using 2.0.2? e.g. if you got jolla c in the community event
09:44:46 <jpetrell> what kind of issues you have had?
09:45:22 <Jaymzz> jpetrell: I have had significant battey drain in standby mode. It can easily die overnight with no apps open
09:45:27 <r0kk3rz> hopefully mines in the mail :)
09:45:37 <ApBBB> many reported stuff on TJC but i am sure you read that :)
09:46:37 <jpetrell> so far we have received surprisingly small amount of issues, so overall maturity is looking quite good
09:46:48 <jpetrell> it has almost half year worth of changes
09:47:01 <eekkelund> Jaymzz: Rebooting  helped, when I had same issua
09:47:23 <ApBBB> there is a small percent of people having it. I think the real issues will start showing up when it hits J1
09:47:51 <jpetrell> call recording feature has issues on jolla 1, backup restore has had issues, then language selection on startup wizard sometimes only works on second boot
09:47:57 <nh1402_work> there was announcement from TRI that they would be adding the Snapdragon 820 to their phones for some people iirc, but Sailfish doesn't currently support aarch64, so how is that going to work.
09:48:01 <jpetrell> ideally you could backup your data to Dropbox, OneDrive or memory card with Jolla 1 and restore with Jolla C, but it hasn't worked on all devices
09:48:09 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: is there anything holding up 2.0.2 on jphone?
09:48:11 <Jaymzz> eekkelund: I tried that, but didn't have any long standby times after that! I use my phones a lot! So, prob need to leave it overnight without charger and report bacl
09:48:44 <ApBBB> nh1402_work: it can work as 32 bit i believe
09:49:07 <jpetrell> r0kk3rz: afaics nothing big anymore
09:49:26 <r0kk3rz> so release should be SoonTM?
09:49:36 <jpetrell> something like that :)
09:49:37 <LarstiQ> r0kk3rz: within several months
09:49:39 * LarstiQ ducks
09:49:42 <ApBBB> when ready ™
09:49:42 <r0kk3rz> :)
09:49:42 <eekkelund> Jaymzz: Maybe log cpu sleep with sysmon unoffical version(found from openrepos)
09:49:58 <andrewalker> are there any plans to update this page? https://sailfishos.org/developmentroadmap/ :)
09:50:01 <kimmoli> jpetrell: http://yle.fi/uutiset/kuluttajaliitto_hammastelee_mobiiliasiakkaiden_kiltteytta__sama_jos_ostaisi_labradorinnoutajan_mutta_saisi_chihuahuan/8994316
09:50:07 <eekkelund> When i had same issue, CPU didn't go to sleep
09:50:09 <jpetrell> seriously though we should get back to regular releases
09:50:24 <ApBBB> andrewalker: james awaits aproval by people that are on Holidays
09:51:11 <nh1402_work> ApBBB: but ghosalmartin has been wrestling with his device for some time to get it working, with no luck yet.
09:51:12 <r0kk3rz> jpetrell: you could drop the release cadence a bit, its not so required these days
09:51:30 <andrewalker> ApBBB: right, got it
09:51:38 <ApBBB> nh1402_work: i was just guestimating
09:53:29 <Jaymzz> Alright
09:53:36 <Jaymzz> Seems quiet enough to move on!
09:53:52 <Jaymzz> #topic Next meeting's date and time
09:54:13 <Jaymzz> So, shall we stick to Fridays?
09:54:44 <sledges> nh1402_work:  i think it was libhybris as last hurdle for aarch64 iirc (let's continue on #sailfishos-porters channel) (sorry missed topic's end)
09:54:45 <Jaymzz> or back to thu?
09:56:10 <urjaman> no comment it seems...
09:56:16 <Jaymzz> I suggest to postpone meetings for July since many will be on summer vacation
09:56:25 <Jaymzz> Suggestions anyone? :)
09:56:56 <r0kk3rz> yeah if sailors are on holidays, then we would usually have a break from meetings
09:57:33 <Jaymzz> Okay so how about next meeting to be on Aug 5th?
09:57:56 <Jaymzz> It's a Friday :) and about the time, we could stick to 09:00 UC, no problems here
09:58:26 <Jaymzz> UTC*
09:58:53 <sledges> 7pm in .au ;) (yet today we missed our aussies:)
09:59:12 <urjaman> middle of assembly 2016, but i suppose thats okay :P
09:59:18 <urjaman> (just noticed...)
09:59:43 <Jaymzz> urjaman: haha well if it's okay we say aug 5th :)
09:59:51 <Jaymzz> no one against it? some attending Assembly? :d
10:00:07 <Jaymzz> sledges: hopefully they'll attend next time :)
10:00:25 <sledges> yeah, it's winter down under:)
10:00:35 <Jaymzz> sledges yes :D
10:00:38 <tathhu> ...eh
10:00:41 <urjaman> i dont think anyone attending Assembly would mind being on IRC
10:00:47 <r0kk3rz> sledges: whats that got to do with it?
10:01:04 <sledges> r0kk3rz: absolutely nothing :P i thought you'd chip in;)
10:01:06 <Jaymzz> Okay nobody seems to be against the time nor the date!
10:01:33 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz: make it so
10:01:47 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on Friday August 5th 2016 at 09:00 UTC
10:01:54 <Venty> \O/
10:02:06 <Jaymzz> Comments? views? Otherwise I'll end the meeting in a minute!
10:03:21 <Jaymzz> Alright! Thanks everyone for attending. A couple of notes: The bot did not register the 2 first # topics. So in case you want to check those please refer to the long. Thanks again and see you on Aug 5th
10:03:35 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting