14:33:36 <Jaymzz_> #startmeeting
14:33:36 <merbot`> Meeting started Sat Feb  4 14:33:36 2017 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
14:33:36 <merbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:33:39 <elfio> who are the video chair? :p
14:33:56 <stephg> Jaymzz_: is the chair for the IRC portion of the meeting after that I think we'll be freestyling
14:34:16 <elfio> Ok :)
14:34:22 <Jaymzz_> As usual, I am the chairman, this time is a bit different, you can watch us live on YouTube and comment there OR here! Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpABm5T7wMM
14:34:27 <faenil> I can seee yoooou
14:34:32 <stephg> \o faenil
14:34:33 <Jaymzz_> #info As usual, I am the chairman, this time is a bit different, you can watch us live on YouTube and comment there OR here! Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpABm5T7wMM
14:34:54 <stephg> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpABm5T7wMM
14:34:58 <Robbster> wow, this lag is with the videa is like a NASA mission  :)
14:35:12 <Sfiet_Konstantin> hi faenil !
14:35:13 <Jaymzz_> #topic Brief introduction, please introduce yourselves for 5 minutes ;)
14:35:21 <nh1402> #info nh1402, community member
14:35:23 <faenil> Sfiet_Konstantin: yo! o/
14:35:28 <stephg> #info Steph Gosling, community & porter
14:35:30 <ced117> #info Cedric Heintz, community member
14:35:35 <Jaymzz_> #info James Noori, Community manger at Jolla
14:35:39 <Znurre> #info Znurre, community member
14:35:39 <Sfiet_Konstantin> #info Sfiet_Konstantin community dev
14:35:44 <mattaustin> #info mattaustin, community / developer (Australia)
14:35:47 <DylanVanAssche> #info Dylan Van Assche, developer
14:35:49 <vgrade> #info vgrade , community
14:35:51 <Robbster> #info robbster community member
14:35:59 <dr_gogeta86> #Info Fabio Isgrò,  community
14:36:00 * Sfiet_Konstantin and stephg are at fosdem and will look at IRC often
14:36:03 <kimmoli> #info Kimmo Lindholm, community, porter'ish..
14:36:08 <mal> #info Matti Lehtimäki, community porter
14:36:14 <leszek> #info Leszek Lesner, community, app dev
14:36:15 <JvD_> #info Tommi Keisala, community member
14:36:16 <Sfiet_Konstantin> o/ kimmoli
14:36:17 <ygriega> #info Sebastian Wolf, community member, SFOS app developer
14:36:17 <cybette_> #info Carol Chen, community member
14:36:24 <kimmoli> Sfiet_Konstantin: o/ JvD_ o/
14:36:26 <BearT> #info Norbert Wenzel, community
14:36:28 <elfio> #info Pablo, aka @chipiguay in telegram fan group. Community member and apps coder :)
14:36:29 <paulvt> #info Paul van Tilburg, community-member
14:36:35 <ced117> perfect Sfiet_Konstantin :)
14:36:38 <eekkelund> #info eekkelund, maemo community council + community dev
14:36:40 <tad_> #info Thomas Dierig, community-member
14:36:47 <pketo> #info Pami Ketolainen, backend developer @ Jolla
14:36:55 <AL13N_jolla_> #info AL13N user, appdev @FOSDEM
14:36:57 <faenil> #info Andrea Bernabei, Nemomobile community
14:37:15 <M4rtinK> #info Martin Kolman, community, modRana developer
14:37:23 <tadzik> #info Tadeusz Sośnierz, community, bootyhunter dev
14:37:40 <marja> #info marja, user, @fosdem
14:38:02 <tbr> #info Thomas, works on things related to Mer
14:40:03 <kimmoli> this is kinda weird
14:40:05 <Jaymzz_> Alright we shall move
14:40:09 <stephg> yep
14:40:10 <anidel> #info Aniello, long time Maemo user/contributor (Xournal), user now. @fosdem also
14:40:23 <Jaymzz_> #topic Handling Python modules SDK (asked by DylanVanAssche, 20 minutes )
14:40:30 <Jaymzz_> #info some details about the topic: Currently the Sailfish SDK can't handle Python packages and modules. A solution would be to allow the use of PIP to add those modules to the RPM of the application, almost the same way as the packages in the Jolla repo are handled for every target. When an RPM is build, PIP will automatically upgrade the Python modules to the latest version if available. Or allow PIP on the Saiflish OS devices
14:40:30 <Jaymzz_> themself, it's installed by default but not allowed for Harbour apps.
14:41:58 <M4rtinK> you can already public Python packagers in Jolla store
14:42:07 <Robbster> upgrading global modules may break exiting modules. Wouldn't something like virtualenv be better?
14:42:07 <M4rtinK> *publish
14:42:10 <stephg> virtualenv is the solution to this?
14:42:34 <DylanVanAssche> something with virtualenv would be great -> sandboxing every app
14:42:55 <tad_> agree to sandboxing
14:43:00 <M4rtinK> I think this is really about easier bundling at package creation time & with the SDK
14:43:07 <Robbster> DylanVanAssche: sandboxing is a much better idea
14:43:09 <M4rtinK> using PIP at install time is not robust
14:43:29 * Sfiet_Konstantin think about something like docker
14:43:45 <Sfiet_Konstantin> (fancy words for a sandboxing solution)
14:43:47 <dr_gogeta86> or wheels
14:43:49 <DylanVanAssche> Using PIP to bundle the modules when building the RPM
14:43:52 <dr_gogeta86> http://pythonwheels.com/
14:43:52 <paulvt> yes it starts containerish indeed
14:44:11 <mattaustin> virtualenv is more useful in development or server configurations - you can usually bundle other python modules within your app and just add the dir to the python path as part of the app initialisation?
14:44:33 <stephg> #info at fosdem there is a discussion about the posibility of virtualenv as solution
14:44:53 <Znurre> stream died
14:44:57 <ced117> yep
14:44:58 <tad_> stream stopped
14:44:58 <Jaymzz_> Oops
14:45:00 <mattaustin> also, yes, wheels (as mentioned by dr_gogeta86) are likely useful :)
14:45:00 <ced117> boom.
14:45:02 <dr_gogeta86> streaming down
14:45:06 <Sfiet_Konstantin> sec
14:45:36 <DylanVanAssche> Python modules which need additional compiling or something else is not possible by just add them to the pro file
14:45:40 <tad_> too many secrets ;-)
14:45:41 <elfio> due to limitated storage and for avoiding to download the same packages several times, maybe some sort of pool could provide the packages and the app would just point what release it needs
14:45:42 <leszek> virtualenv short term solution, flatpak or snaps long term solution
14:45:57 <M4rtinK> BTW, it would also help if you could add more packages for your application
14:45:58 <ced117> right tad_, that's why it crashed...
14:46:07 <M4rtinK> like it's possible on OpenRepos
14:46:23 <DylanVanAssche> M4rtink +1
14:46:32 <Znurre> M4rtinK +1
14:46:36 <M4rtinK> like you would still have to package the stuff
14:46:42 <ced117> right M4rtinK !
14:46:57 <M4rtinK> or use packaging from somewhere else (Fedora/OpenSUSE) etc,
14:47:05 <Sfiet_Konstantin> #info (sledges) we will come back in 2-3 weeks about packaging
14:47:11 <M4rtinK> but would not need to bundle everything
14:47:35 <stephg> #info connectivity issues onsite
14:47:39 <M4rtinK> also there could be a pool (Nieldk ? ;-) )of such packages on OBS and you would just pick them to you application "repo"
14:48:04 <Jaymzz_> I paused the time so far
14:48:24 <Robbster> elfio: would that imply some OS provided abstraction layer to manage to library dependencies
14:48:31 <elfio> M4rtinK: that would make sense to me, just like most distros make it
14:48:47 <elfio> default packages has the default name, olders append the release version
14:48:49 <Sfiet_Konstantin> we are talking about how RPM packages are built at (eg) Fedora
14:49:05 <Sfiet_Konstantin> and how we could transit from how we build at Mer to something similar to Fedora
14:49:18 <dr_gogeta86> SfietKonstantinW: is still a risk
14:49:32 <dr_gogeta86> for ex. i need an older one or a newer one
14:49:36 <M4rtinK> frankly
14:49:40 <leszek> Sfiet_Konstantin: isn't fedora and opensuse discussing changing that as it is too painful for them
14:49:44 <Sfiet_Konstantin> (personal opinion) I'm still not convinced about unbundling most of the stuff, and let apps to be able to bundle their deps
14:49:57 <dr_gogeta86> flatpak ... can heal but not solve
14:50:04 <Sfiet_Konstantin> leszek: we are onl discussing about how to profit from Fedora / OpenSuse's work for Mer
14:50:25 <Sfiet_Konstantin> #info problem at Mer is that we are lacking manpower to maintain all the packages we have
14:50:29 <M4rtinK> I think building a custom "embedded" distro is not needed anymore
14:50:39 <tbr> I personally have the experience, that you can use other distro RPM packaging as a *starting* point, nothing else
14:50:43 <paulvt> yes, theses are the reasons that these container/sandboxing solutions are emerging
14:50:53 <DylanVanAssche> Sfiet_Konstantin: bundling deps is also possible if PIP or something else can handle the deps at build time for every target
14:50:57 <elfio> I think every piece we can reuse from something existing is good for reduce workload
14:50:58 <M4rtinK> just base it no a major distro, add a mobile shell & maybe change some defaults
14:51:07 <Sfiet_Konstantin> tbr: so profiting from them, ie using their SPEC would be out of question ?
14:51:08 <tad__> tad_: I hope you're not trying to be an imposter of me
14:51:35 <tbr> Sfiet_Konstantin: if you want to use fedora or opensuse packages, then you need to be opensuse or fedora.
14:51:51 <Sfiet_Konstantin> tbr: I see
14:52:01 <Stskeeps> there's also a third way which is OE-based, like asteroidOS did
14:52:04 <tadzik> legally?
14:52:13 <Stskeeps> nemo-libhybris stack but OE
14:52:16 <tad_> @tad__: Nope, coincidently. Even though I use this since around 1990.
14:52:25 <M4rtinK> tbr: really ? I don't think so
14:52:40 <M4rtinK> tbr: there are quite a few Fedora rebuilds
14:52:42 <tbr> M4rtinK: it's a consequence
14:52:56 <tad__> tad_: in this case: nice nick ;)
14:52:59 <tbr> yes, but they are very close to whichever fedora they base on
14:53:12 <tbr> you'll quickly run into dependency hell
14:53:13 <tad_> @tad__: I think we know each other! Same full name.
14:53:46 <Sfiet_Konstantin> why not trying to decrease the number of packages, and basically use flatpack like stuff (or docker or ...)
14:53:51 <M4rtinK> well, I'm talking about not using just a few packages - that might indeed be complicated
14:54:12 <M4rtinK> I mean just basing the whole thing of a distro with custom stuff on top
14:54:36 <M4rtinK> like I don't think Mer can beat the hundreds/thousands of Fedora packages for example
14:55:16 <M4rtinK> hell, you can even base it no CentOS it you want long term stability
14:55:29 <leszek> yeah flatpak is the future. Though the base system with its runtimes needs compiling aswell and it would mean nothing else then asking the same question who should be responsible for the deps ? Pack them with the app or in a runtime ?
14:55:33 <tbr> sure, but that'd be a hard cut transition. you'd need to rebase everything, just like e.g. asteroidsos
14:55:45 <elfio> could be possible then to use Fedora repos as a base and with affordable amount of work adapt it for using in SFOS?
14:56:08 <Sfiet_Konstantin> one discussion IRL happening now: how to ensure QA
14:56:18 <Robbster> stream up
14:56:21 <Sfiet_Konstantin> will Jolla accept using Fedora / CentOS updates directly
14:56:23 <tad_> Yiipieh
14:56:25 <ced117> back :D
14:56:27 <Sfiet_Konstantin> without any sort of QA ?
14:56:31 <M4rtinK> leszek: yeah,  even flatpack apps need something to run on & the something needs security updates, etc.
14:57:00 <tad_> darn
14:57:03 <tbr> if people want to use $userspace from $distro, then the way is to essentially ship containers
14:57:04 <Robbster> gone
14:57:04 <ced117> crashed ?
14:57:08 <ced117> damnit xD
14:57:22 <tbr> chroot into your container and you have what you want
14:57:33 <M4rtinK> well, containers do make a whole lot of sense on mobile devices
14:57:44 <leszek> yep
14:57:50 <ced117> true
14:57:52 <M4rtinK> but if you also want them to sandbox - that's hard to do correctly
14:57:53 <tadzik> do they really provide any advantage over plain ol' virtualenv in this case?
14:57:59 <Sfiet_Konstantin> M4rtinK: how ?
14:58:04 <pasko__> How about snaps? https://snapcraft.io/
14:58:05 <tbr> of course every package essentially shipping its own distribution will not make them small
14:58:06 <tadzik> (for our intents and purposes)
14:58:17 <M4rtinK> Sfiet_Konstantin: so you don't cripple the apps
14:58:25 <pasko__> There's some buzz about them in the Ubuntu community....
14:58:32 <ced117> ha didnt know snaps, will take a look at this later
14:58:47 <Sfiet_Konstantin> ced117: snap is essentially what ubuntu uses for their ubuntu phones
14:58:49 <tbr> they are very ubuntu centric so far, although some ports have been done
14:58:55 <Sfiet_Konstantin> M4rtinK: it shouldn't really ?
14:59:01 <ced117> alright, will check that anyway Sfiet_Konstantin :)
14:59:06 <leszek> pasko__: yeah snaps is almost exactly the same though snaps don't have dependency management thought out yet
14:59:07 <ced117> just to know how that works
14:59:10 <faenil> Sfiet_Konstantin: not used on current phones. They're for Ubuntu Core
14:59:17 <Sfiet_Konstantin> faenil: really ?
14:59:29 <eekkelund> systemd-nspawn?
14:59:39 <paulvt> :)
14:59:41 <ced117> ha, it's developed by ubuntu
14:59:45 <M4rtinK> Sfiet_Konstantin: if you want to sandbox properly, you need to for example have system dialogs for file access
15:00:05 <elfio> is this going too offtopic?
15:00:09 <leszek> yeah and some other stuff that android does for permission management
15:00:14 <M4rtinK> Sfiet_Konstantin: and for example current Ubuntu Touch (click based) can only forward single file at a time to an app
15:00:16 <Sfiet_Konstantin> M4rtinK: that's something different, but you can provide solution
15:00:20 <pasko__> leszek: ok snaps are at their infancy now, right?
15:00:26 <Sfiet_Konstantin> think about dbus ?
15:00:28 <Jaymzz_> Alright guys it seems that we can't get the stream back up so far
15:00:29 <faenil> Sfiet_Konstantin: and they work on other distros too.
15:00:34 <M4rtinK> good look viewing photos from your camera uSD card
15:00:38 <Jaymzz_> and the time on this topic is over.
15:00:39 <ced117> that's sad
15:00:40 <Sfiet_Konstantin> faenil: sorry, mixed snap & click
15:00:43 <M4rtinK> same thing for everything else
15:00:46 <ced117> sure
15:00:51 <faenil> (disclaimer: I work at Canonical, although not on snaps)
15:00:54 <leszek> pasko__: basically yes. But so is flatpak and appimage
15:01:14 <M4rtinK> location, using system services, controlling the phone, accessing contacts, hardware
15:01:18 <DylanVanAssche> so no solution for including easily Python packages into apps atm?
15:01:23 <stephg> we're stuck in a side argument at fosdem about sandboxing versus dep management
15:01:31 <dr_gogeta86> There is a specific track these days about Distro management
15:01:36 <Sfiet_Konstantin> (just like on IRC ?)
15:01:38 <Sfiet_Konstantin> :D
15:01:41 <tadzik> what's wrong with virtualenv?
15:01:42 <tadzik> I mean, "easy"-wise
15:01:42 <Stskeeps> Sfiet_Konstantin: isn't 20 minutes up?
15:01:43 <ced117> ;)
15:01:47 <stephg> yes
15:01:59 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Stskeeps: Jaymzz_ did you restarted the timer ?
15:02:07 <Jaymzz_> Moving on to the next topic. Apologies for the streaming issues
15:02:10 <dr_gogeta86> And the outlook in long term is  ... we don't care we stuff crap on containers ... and every body happy
15:02:19 <ced117> no problem, it happens sadly.
15:02:26 <Jaymzz_> #topic Updating Mer Architecture diagrams at https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Architecture to the actual state. Current diagrams are very outdated (3-5 years old) (asked by coderus, 15 minutes)
15:02:28 <leszek> tadzik: nothing. As I said best solution for the short term. long term we need something like snaps or flatpak. But I personally would say use the short term solution now and let the snaps and flatpaks of the world evolve
15:03:00 <dr_gogeta86> stream on
15:03:01 <Jaymzz_> the topic did not come with additional info, as it is self explanatory
15:03:02 <ced117> back online
15:03:08 <Sfiet_Konstantin> stream back ?
15:03:14 <dr_gogeta86> yep
15:03:15 <occirol> stream back
15:03:20 <Znurre> nope
15:03:23 <Sail0r> nope
15:03:24 <tad_> nope
15:03:25 <Sfiet_Konstantin> down again :(
15:03:29 <dr_gogeta86> yep
15:03:31 <ced117> this is crazy
15:03:32 <M4rtinK> takes 3 minutes :)
15:03:32 <Sfiet_Konstantin> it lasted 10s !
15:03:33 <Znurre> refreshed, and it works I think (?)
15:03:38 <stephg> #info at fosdem Stskeeps says there has been some work done in the sailfishos wiki, that the ones on the mer wiki are extremely old
15:03:41 <Sfiet_Konstantin> back again ?
15:03:41 <dr_gogeta86> up again
15:03:43 <Jaymzz_> Guys could we please carry on with the topics? :)
15:03:49 <tadzik> youtube sucks! /me hides
15:03:51 <stephg> Jaymzz_: +1
15:04:05 <elfio> +1
15:04:06 <coderus> #info Andrey Kozhevnikov, community, omprussia
15:04:13 <Stskeeps> and not going to get updated on my behalf
15:04:15 <Sfiet_Konstantin> hi coderus !
15:04:19 <corvinux> i tried  refresh, it doesn't work
15:04:21 <ced117> youtube is fucked up. mv /home/youtube /dev/null
15:04:24 <Jaymzz_> Let's stop caring about the stream as the connection is terrible there, and carry on with the topics
15:04:27 <ced117> hello coderus
15:04:39 <ced117> sure Jaymzz_ :)
15:04:45 <coderus> diagram is extremely useful to explain users and devs how mer is working, but its very outdated now
15:04:51 <Jaymzz_> Hi coderus! The stage is yours :)
15:05:12 <AL13N_jolla_> link us to new diagram?
15:05:19 <Sfiet_Konstantin> https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Architecture ?
15:05:27 <stephg> #link https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Architecture
15:05:30 <Sfiet_Konstantin> don't know if it qualifies as a diagram since it is just layed blocks
15:05:32 <norsky> Hi everybody
15:05:38 <ced117> hello norsky
15:05:41 <Stskeeps> every architecture diagram is a lie
15:06:11 <Sfiet_Konstantin> #info <Stskeeps> every architecture diagram is a lie
15:06:31 <coderus> #link https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Architecture
15:06:33 <coderus> this one
15:06:37 <stephg> #info locusf says that the diagram would also likely be wrong due to the nemo middleware mer merge 2 years ago
15:06:49 <Sfiet_Konstantin> coderus: we are talking about this one :)
15:06:57 <Robbster> for new contributers that can be great for understanding where to look.
15:06:58 <Sfiet_Konstantin> and if this will be updated. The question is likely no
15:07:04 <coderus> there are a lot of entries about X11 stuff and so
15:07:11 <corvinux> lplqAAlll
15:07:24 <corvinux> q
15:07:45 <elfio> maybe someone from Jolla has something to say about the topic? is there any plan on it?
15:07:53 <coderus> so, anyone who know about this stuff please feel free to say anything :)
15:08:13 <tadzik> the discussion in the room seems to be mostly “they cause more confusion than anything else”
15:08:28 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Stskeeps is giving an example of a Tizen diagram, that says nothing about the stack
15:08:47 <coderus> or we should make new from scratch
15:08:53 <stephg> #info if there is any new documentation it will be clean on the sailifhos wiki
15:08:57 <Stskeeps> ah, it was not tizen but https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bada_architecture.png
15:09:01 <Stskeeps> bada
15:09:03 <tbr> I can probably produce something using the follow up software to agile browser. the graphics will be huge and inaccurate, just as Stskeeps said
15:09:04 <Sfiet_Konstantin> ah Bada :
15:09:05 <Sfiet_Konstantin> :D
15:09:08 <tadzik> :D
15:09:14 <tbr> that would be limited to mer:core
15:09:26 <Robbster> that seems silly. if the diagrams aren't useful, make them useful/accurate.
15:09:50 <tbr> useful and accurate are mutually exclusive in this case
15:10:26 <AL13N_jolla_> Robbster: are you volunteering?
15:10:27 <tad_> But you're not thinking about not doing new diagrams, ru?
15:10:29 <leszek> I think the architecture blocks on the sailfishos.org wiki site is enough as a starting point
15:10:49 <coderus> tbr: would be great to understand how to generate incoming data
15:10:56 <coderus> then we can think how to make better diagrams
15:11:02 <leszek> add a little color to them and it looks good
15:11:07 <Jaymzz_> 5 minutes left guys.
15:11:21 <elfio> color is key in any visual information/diagram
15:11:43 <Robbster> AL13N_jolla_: no knowledge, sadly.
15:11:59 <Sfiet_Konstantin> idea IRL: keep improving a digram when question arises
15:12:14 <Sfiet_Konstantin> so that it can organically grow to an accurate and useful diagram
15:12:27 <tbr> coderus: there are scripts that process the XML data of the rpm repositories and can then be digested by AgileBrowser (both are not easy to find, e.g. on the gitorious archive)
15:12:34 <leszek> or add a nice little tux logo besides the kernel to make it look more sweet
15:13:15 <coderus> tbr: thats okay, let me know what to search
15:13:17 <leszek> something like that: https://neptuneos.com/files/NeptuneOS/Article/neptune-structure-202x300.png
15:13:23 <stephg> if the information is better in the sailfishos wiki then the stuff in mer should be removed?
15:13:32 <tbr> coderus: poke me next week, I'll give you hints
15:13:34 <Sfiet_Konstantin> :D
15:13:44 <Jaymzz_> #info there are scripts that process the XML data of the rpm repositories and can then be digested by AgileBrowser (both are not easy to find, e.g. on the gitorious archive)
15:13:46 <coderus> tbr: roger
15:14:02 <Jaymzz_> coderus are we done with your topic soon? :)
15:14:12 <coderus> Jaymzz_: yes thanks
15:14:18 <Jaymzz_> Alright moving on!
15:14:31 <Jaymzz_> #topic PGP/MIME and the Mail App (Asked by kat6, 15 min)
15:14:41 <Jaymzz_> #info some details about the topic: Currently, the mail app doesn't handle encrypted content. Damien Caliste seems to be working on it, but in the meanwhile, can something be done so as to enable downloading the encrypted content as an attachment? Then one can easily decrypt using GnuPG. What is the feasibility of this?
15:14:43 <Sfiet_Konstantin> we are discussing a bit IRL about duplication of info
15:14:50 <Sfiet_Konstantin> (mer / SFOS wiki)
15:15:36 <leszek> +1 mails should be downloadable as txt files (or even viewable)
15:15:46 <Sfiet_Konstantin> this is a reply in the SFOS ML
15:15:48 <Sfiet_Konstantin> I think the encrypted part of an email is already available from command line. QMF is saving already decoded the various part of a multipart email in .qmf/mail. Doing a ll -rt there gives the latest received emails and the parts are in a subdirectory. Then it can be copied by ssh or directly decoded in fingerterm. It is simpler imho than proposing the encrypted file in the UI where anyway one cannot do anything with it
15:15:49 <Sfiet_Konstantin> even not save it somewhere.
15:16:24 <stephg> #info I think the encrypted part of an email is already available from command line.  QMF is saving already decoded the various part of a multipart email in .qmf/mail.  Doing a ll -rt there gives the latest received emails and the parts are in a subdirectory. Then it can be copied by ssh or directly decoded in fingerterm. It is simpler imho than proposing the encrypted file in the UI where anyway one
15:16:30 <stephg> cannot do anything with it even not save it somewhere
15:16:33 <stephg> #info cannot do anything with it even not save it somewhere
15:16:44 <stephg> Damien Calliste sadly can't be here today
15:17:03 <tadzik> (what is qmf?)_
15:17:11 <Sfiet_Konstantin> tadzik: QMF is the Qt messenging framework
15:17:16 <tadzik> thanks
15:17:28 <Sfiet_Konstantin> actually it is what handles mails in Mer+Nemo side
15:17:40 <Sfiet_Konstantin> and jolla-email is simply a GUI front-end for QMF
15:17:54 <eekkelund> Entry for CC http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1522621&postcount=85
15:18:06 <Jaymzz_> #link  http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1522621&postcount=85
15:18:13 <stephg> #link http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1522621&postcount=85
15:18:23 <stephg> snap! :D
15:18:30 <Jaymzz_> haha no problem :D
15:18:30 <ApBBB> jolla-email has far more serious problems than encryption :/
15:18:40 <Sfiet_Konstantin> ApBBB: :D
15:18:48 <tadzik> ApBBB: +1
15:18:52 <ced117> tell us more ApBBB
15:18:54 <AL13N_jolla_> is QMF in mer?
15:19:04 <Sfiet_Konstantin> I guess, based on Damien's app, we can do something better (if we wanted)
15:19:06 <Sfiet_Konstantin> AL13N_jolla_: yes
15:19:34 <Sfiet_Konstantin> sec, searchign for a link
15:19:49 <ApBBB> my main issue is mails being late when it is set to be always up to date. no matter connection (wifi - mobile data).
15:20:11 <Sfiet_Konstantin> #link https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/messagingframework
15:20:13 <Sfiet_Konstantin> QMF link
15:20:26 <leszek> ApBBB: using imap idle ? Because that works fine for me
15:20:46 <Znurre> ApBBB: works fine for me with GMail at least, phone usually vibrates before the mail even appears in the browser interface :)
15:21:09 <dr_gogeta86> not on private servers
15:21:11 <ApBBB> yep. gmail as normal email. reported on tjc long time ago
15:21:21 <tadzik> my problem with jolla-email: emails deleted/moved from one folder with another imap client don't disappear from that folder ondevice
15:21:21 <stephg> #info there was a push notification solution written by tbr, a tech PoC which works
15:21:48 <Jaymzz_> 10 minutes left on this :)
15:21:48 <corvinux> ApBBB: leszek :What about mail for exchange,  there is also a problem with sync.
15:22:05 <alterego> #info MQTT https://github.com/dm8tbr/irssi-mqtt-sailfish.git
15:22:11 <leszek> don't know don't use exchange
15:22:26 <Jaymzz_> #link https://github.com/dm8tbr/irssi-mqtt-sailfish.git
15:22:34 <Tux1000> alias support for mail would be great
15:22:34 <BearT> tadzik: i agree. recognizing moves would be good
15:22:47 <tbr> #info that is a technology demonstration!
15:22:47 <elfio> tadzik: I have the same problem with a private server
15:22:54 <tadzik> BearT: I'd use the word "essential" ;)
15:23:02 <Sfiet_Konstantin> question IRL: who can live without push notifications
15:23:04 <tbr> #info it would require significant work to be usable in general
15:23:04 <Stskeeps> tbr: temporary solutions are the most permanent ones
15:23:05 <Stskeeps> :P
15:23:09 <Sfiet_Konstantin> and many people said that they can live without it
15:23:13 <tadzik> honestly I don't think I even reported it (or checked that it's reported), I just assumed that mobile email clients are shit and there's nothing in the world that'll ever change that
15:23:15 <stephg> a straw poll at fosdem of users here say they can live without push notifications in email
15:23:19 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Stskeeps: that's true
15:23:19 <stephg> (presented without comment)
15:23:31 <tbr> Stskeeps: well it was "enough for me" and there was no interest, so I stuck with it, sure
15:23:35 <occirol> mail for exchange works until there is not too much item to sync
15:23:55 <leszek> tadzik: thats not true. I have a blackberry and this is best messaging ever
15:24:00 <BearT> tadzik: i got used to double delete my mails, though most of it is anyway not visible to mail app (moved to subfolder before it reaches the phone)
15:24:08 <tadzik> leszek: ah, I never used one
15:24:26 <tadzik> BearT: yeah, I stopped syncing jolla-email automatically whatsoever
15:24:39 <tadzik> and I only sync it manually when I need a boarding pass or someshing
15:25:23 <paulvt> same here
15:25:27 <ced117> the stream works again, for now.
15:25:32 <elfio> could we stick to the topic?
15:25:48 <Robbster> elfio: +1
15:25:50 <tadzik> current IRL topic: things that are shit about jolla-email ;)
15:26:06 <Robbster> tadzik: oh, my bad ;)
15:26:17 <tadzik> currently: deleting emails manually as a 5-line script
15:26:33 <Sfiet_Konstantin> but now, you can follow the stream :)
15:26:53 * Robbster gets popcorn
15:27:05 <Jaymzz_> just a couple of minutes left on this topic, are we almost done?
15:27:06 <tadzik> any more questions/suggestions on topic?
15:27:07 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Jaymzz_: how many time left on the topic ?
15:27:12 <kimmoli> exchange works fine for me, only sending large attachments timeouts too easy
15:27:18 <Jaymzz_> Sfiet_Konstantin: just said it xD
15:27:30 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Jaymzz_: bad timing
15:27:46 <ApBBB> also the email needs a redesign
15:27:50 <Jaymzz_> haha, so I assume we're moving on?
15:27:52 <Tux1000> I use my Jolla for buisines and private mail. active sync and imap via push works there okay. i wish there would be an auto-update for subfolder und alias function
15:27:53 <ApBBB> UI wise
15:28:07 <stephg> tbr would like to talk about 'what is the state of mer core and where should it go' in All Other Business
15:28:11 <Jaymzz_> I'll give it 3 more minutes (as it's left)
15:28:37 <Jaymzz_> stephg: Do I make it a topic?
15:29:00 <stephg> yeah
15:29:21 <occirol> @kimmoli yes, but by my side when I've a lots of unread email to sync, sync never go through the end
15:29:24 <Jaymzz_> #topic what is the state of mer core and where should it go
15:29:35 <stephg> info tbr: jolla has been very careful to maintain a backwards compatible distro
15:29:38 <Jaymzz_> This is being talked about live on FOSDEM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpABm5T7wMM
15:29:38 <stephg> #info tbr: jolla has been very careful to maintain a backwards compatible distro
15:29:48 <Jaymzz_> #info This is being talked about live on FOSDEM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpABm5T7wMM
15:29:56 <stephg> and then relayed an anecdote about difficulties he had rebuilding/upgrading himself
15:30:08 <corvinux> What is wrong  with mail for exchange support ?
15:30:12 <stephg> he asks: do we update gcc, do we update glibc, what is the directiom?
15:31:01 <stephg> #info sledges jolla is going to open all of the webhooks and such that they use for the mer portion of sfos
15:31:33 <stephg> discussion moves to a mer-devel/mer-next
15:31:53 <tadzik> (is the topic of enabling the use of jolla-made qml components (camera etc) available to apps still upcoming?)
15:31:55 <Sfiet_Konstantin> now the talk is about binary compatibility troubles about upgrades (of gcc etc)
15:31:56 <stephg> #info Stskeeps in general binary compatability isn't a problem
15:32:27 <stephg> #typically upgrading glibc or gcc isn't a problem for bin compat, but packages tend to stop building
15:32:40 <stephg> #info there is also the problem of GPLv3 license changes with some packages
15:32:53 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Stskeeps: please say "cute" not cutie :D
15:32:55 <faenil> stephg: #typically :D
15:33:09 <dr_gogeta86> volume
15:33:11 <stephg> #info typically upgrading glibc or gcc isn't a problem for bin compat, but packages tend to stop
15:33:13 <dr_gogeta86> is too low
15:33:14 <stephg> building
15:33:23 <elfio> barely can hear the one talking right now
15:33:24 <M4rtinK> louder please ;-)
15:33:37 <stephg> #info its not always as east to upgrade qt
15:33:54 <stephg> #info as not only bincompat but also js changes etc.
15:33:58 <tbr> #info Stskeeps says, that qt is the headache as you need to do lots of QA work on top of a stable release to "productize"
15:34:08 <corvinux> louder it is.
15:34:19 <Sfiet_Konstantin> there is also the quesiton of C++11 changing ABI in GCC > 4
15:34:51 <dr_gogeta86> funny tnx sledges
15:35:49 <stephg> #info the question we should ask at this point who is interesting in putting some work into  aking mer build with a recent gcc and toolchan < tbr
15:36:02 <stephg> #info tbr: do we have experience with people in that context?
15:37:13 <Robbster> Perhaps we should ask how to reduce the effort in reducing the tech-debt?
15:37:52 <ApBBB> money can solve this :P
15:38:09 <Jaymzz_> That's probably the case with every issue
15:38:16 <ApBBB> exactly
15:39:00 <ApBBB> and mer/sfos etc don't have many users so that a capable minority to care about solving problems for free :)
15:39:03 <M4rtinK> well, at least Flatpack has runtime, making it possible to share the userspace bewteen containers
15:39:25 <M4rtinK> IIRC snap has support for that too but no one is actually using that
15:39:34 <stephg> #info (Stskeeps)  qt isn't moving particuarly fast as an application platform
15:39:40 <faenil> tbr: Stskeeps you don't have to download hundreds of mb with snaps, you only do it once.
15:39:51 <Jaymzz_> #info (for those who wanna read later) this is taking longer than usual since we are syncing with FOSDEM live on YouTube and the discussion is on-going there.
15:39:56 <Stskeeps> faenil: over time it will eventually diverge as people have different needs fwiw
15:39:58 <faenil> things like Qt, KDE libs, etc, are shared using platform snaps
15:40:06 <Stskeeps> like 'i want newer qt'
15:40:20 <tadzik> (is the topic of enabling the use of jolla-made qml components (camera etc) available to apps still upcoming?)
15:40:30 <stephg> Jaymzz_: we think we can close this now and move on
15:40:34 <faenil> that is always the case. Either you use the platform one, or you ship yours
15:40:51 <Stskeeps> faenil: yep, and as some apps use qt5, some 5.1, 5.2, etc..
15:40:58 <Jaymzz_> stephg General discussion, or do you guys have a new topic?
15:41:31 <elfio> Jaymzz_: tasdzik asked this before "is the topic of enabling the use of jolla-made qml components (camera etc) available to apps still upcoming?"
15:42:04 <Jaymzz_> Alright let's talk about it! coming up in a sec
15:42:18 <Jaymzz_> #topic "is the topic of enabling the use of jolla-made qml components (camera etc) available to apps still upcoming?
15:42:34 <Jaymzz_> stephg: let's talk about this one ;D
15:42:42 <stephg> yep we are
15:42:47 <M4rtinK> don't forget file chooser
15:42:49 <stephg> the questioner just asked the qurestion in the room
15:42:52 <Jaymzz_> stephg: thanks for being the messenger :P
15:42:59 <M4rtinK> IIRC that's *still* not allowed by RPM validator
15:42:59 <tadzik> oh yes, file chooser too
15:42:59 <Jaymzz_> Oh good
15:43:09 <tadzik> I'd say Map but that's another story
15:43:15 <Sfiet_Konstantin> map please
15:43:20 <stephg> #info veskuh saying it's been a back-burner activity in the ui time, some progrss but still somecomponetnts to do
15:43:23 <elfio> yeah, maps
15:43:25 <tadzik> that's licensing BS at work
15:43:31 <tadzik> they do work already
15:43:40 <tadzik> it's just harbour being harbour
15:43:49 <stephg> #info after that the experience is not still complete, and then jolla need to prioritze the next most valuable ones
15:44:17 <stephg> #info jolla will be able to much more after MWC (teaser from sledges)
15:44:33 <Jaymzz_> Good stuff ;)
15:44:46 <Jaymzz_> #SoonTM
15:44:50 <ced117> ??? :D
15:44:59 <BearT> :D
15:45:01 <leszek> karneval time
15:45:02 <Sfiet_Konstantin> sledges is just teasing us right now :D
15:45:09 <corvinux> Rust+QT5
15:45:12 <ced117> :)
15:45:22 <tadzik> a GTK Silica, yes!
15:45:22 <Sfiet_Konstantin> MWC won't be delayd :D
15:45:27 <Sfiet_Konstantin> tadzik: eh
15:45:35 * ApBBB crosses fingers that mwc announcement will be good HW
15:45:46 * Robbster crosses fingers also
15:46:02 <ced117> ssssshhhh.
15:46:06 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Why not Jolla C+ and then Jolla C++, or Jolla C#, Jolla NT
15:46:09 <Sfiet_Konstantin> etc.
15:46:10 <ced117> hahahaha
15:46:16 <elfio> can we expect a SOON TM in MWC?
15:46:25 <tadzik> # is like ++++, but in two rows
15:46:27 <ApBBB> Jolla SOON
15:46:31 <ced117> everyone is going crazy.
15:46:32 <stephg> sledges would not be drawn on timing
15:46:33 <Jaymzz_> elfio: Yes.
15:46:41 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Jolla SOON (tm)
15:46:42 <Jaymzz_> elfio: you can expect that all the time.
15:46:44 <zarel> tadzik, oh god I never thought of this
15:46:48 <elfio> Jaymzz_: :(
15:46:48 <tadzik> Jolla Watch (this space)
15:46:53 <Jaymzz_> elfio: Joking ;)
15:46:54 <tadzik> zarel: I always thought that was the point :P
15:46:58 <elfio> Jaymzz_: :)
15:47:00 <Tofe> mh, is this still the meeting (which I think I missed :p )
15:47:02 <Tofe> ?
15:47:08 <stephg> yes
15:47:11 <Tofe> oh ok :)
15:47:14 <tadzik> it has offtopicised
15:47:27 <paulvt> most definitely
15:47:35 <elfio> do we're going to have another mer-meeting with streaming in MWC?
15:47:36 <Tofe> first time I see it happen ;)
15:47:38 <stephg> #info there is a new hadk coming and will make ports easier
15:47:39 <kimmoli> galaxies
15:47:39 <Sfiet_Konstantin> New HADK will make porting easier ?
15:47:44 <corvinux> Jolla Q as a Question?
15:47:51 <stephg> #info including isntructions for 64-bit devices
15:47:52 <tadzik> HADK?
15:47:52 <Jaymzz_> elfio: Very difficult as connections are even worse at MWC
15:47:58 <mp107> Q as QWERTY
15:47:58 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Take a look at SFdroid too :
15:47:59 <Sfiet_Konstantin> :)
15:48:00 <elfio> Jaymzz_: ok
15:48:20 <stephg> #link https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris/sfdroid
15:48:27 <ApBBB> anything from jolla on attracting more devs??
15:48:30 <corvinux> mp107: that would be nice.
15:48:33 <ApBBB> we need apps
15:48:42 <tad_> native
15:49:10 <ApBBB> obviously
15:49:11 <nh1402> what's this about sfdroid
15:49:18 <stephg> #info sfdroid looking for help to improve it
15:49:29 <Sfiet_Konstantin> sledges saying that ported devices can be a real good alternative
15:49:39 <elfio> whaat? sfos and android at the same time?
15:49:44 <Sfiet_Konstantin> and sfdroid can be a way to enable android apps on those ported devices
15:50:07 <Sfiet_Konstantin> elfio: ported devices is based on Android base
15:50:11 <elfio> is sfdroid considered to be stock option for official devices instead of AD?
15:50:35 <leszek> i doubt it as sfdroid is still alpha
15:50:57 <Sfiet_Konstantin> elfio: you can try
15:51:09 <elfio> Sfiet_Konstantin: but most Android is deleted when you flash SFOS on top of it, right?
15:51:18 <dr_gogeta86> no
15:51:26 <Sfiet_Konstantin> elfio: dunno not expert in this domain
15:51:26 <elfio> oh
15:51:26 <Tofe> for most of the functionalities in sfdroid, a specific "driver" has to be written to relay the data to sfos, so it can take some time to reach a good level of functionality...
15:51:27 <dr_gogeta86> is still there more or less
15:52:01 <elfio> ok
15:52:03 <Znurre> [16:48] <ApBBB> anything from jolla on attracting more devs?? <- paid apps in the store
15:52:12 <elfio> +1
15:52:18 <stephg> #info the hadk update is hopefully to be pushed out to early adopters next week
15:52:40 <Sfiet_Konstantin> attracting more devs quesiton is being asked
15:52:46 <ApBBB> so EA for 2.1 is comming next week?
15:52:47 <Znurre> I know at least one person who is not considering developing for Sailfish simply because there is no easy way to monetize the app
15:52:47 <tadzik> tbh as an appwriter, even if I sold my app for 5€ in the jollastore I still wouldn't expect to break even
15:52:52 <Tofe> elfio: when you flash SFOS on top of Android, is just goes in a subfolder of /data, Android is still bootable technically
15:52:55 <Sfiet_Konstantin> spred the word about sfdroid is an answer
15:52:57 <tadzik> increasing the userbase is crucial in this one
15:53:19 <elfio> Tofe: wow, I didn't know that
15:53:23 <ApBBB> sfdroid isnt a solution. devs for native apps
15:53:32 <dr_gogeta86> Tofe: doesn't work due hybrisng
15:53:33 <ced117> +1 ApBBB
15:53:38 <stephg> #info the qt update has helped somewhat
15:53:57 <stephg> #info the documentation and webinars have been well viewed and joll a have received good feedback
15:54:00 <Znurre> ofc it doesn't help that there is no official hardware available atm either :)
15:54:08 <Znurre> for new devs it can be hard to get their hands on one I guess
15:54:17 <stephg> #info the new russion partner has been organising lots of developer events in russia
15:54:27 <ced117> good to know !
15:54:31 <ced117> good point
15:54:40 <stephg> #info jolla want to improve partnerships and extend this model
15:54:47 <stephg> #info looking for local advocates
15:55:00 <stephg> #info  (all of that veskuh)
15:55:10 <ApBBB> is it possible for jolla to contact a few companies that make big apps (ie spotify)
15:55:14 <elfio> talk to bq (spanish vendor), who already shipped a couple of ubuntu phones
15:55:28 <dr_gogeta86> and they stopped
15:55:48 <elfio> yeah, but we don't know why
15:55:56 <corvinux> Exokernel?
15:56:00 <Sfiet_Konstantin> Jaymzz_: o/
15:56:03 <stephg> we are more or less ready to wrap up here
15:56:13 <Sfiet_Konstantin> we are nearly done here
15:56:18 <Jaymzz_> Well stephg is doing a great job so :P
15:56:22 <ced117> :)
15:56:30 <Sfiet_Konstantin> thanks stephg !
15:56:38 <ced117> thank you stephg ;)
15:56:39 <Jaymzz_> #topic next meeting time/date
15:56:43 <Nokius> thanks stephg
15:56:52 <kimmoli> stephg g-man
15:57:05 <Jaymzz_> stephg: you tha man! Thanks for communicating here :)
15:57:17 <Drummer12> very interesting discussion, thx for making it possible! :)
15:57:17 <corvinux> Sailfishos update soon?
15:57:37 <tadzik> corvinux: there were words about "next week"
15:57:41 <Tofe> corvinux: always, for some value of "soon" :)
15:57:48 <ApBBB> tjc is a  good place also
15:57:53 <Jaymzz_> So next meeting, what do you guys say about after MWC in March?
15:57:56 <leszek> tadzik: hadk only
15:58:01 <stephg> sledges: suggests after mwc for the next meeting
15:58:05 <tadzik> leszek: ah, my bad
15:58:06 <Sfiet_Konstantin> see ya
15:58:06 <Nokius> Jaymzz_: +1
15:58:09 <stephg> dunno if ayone has any opinions
15:58:10 <JvD_> 
15:58:17 <kimmoli> live from MWC might not work as there is no network
15:58:38 <Jaymzz_> Monday 6th of March? 9:00 UTC?
15:58:41 <corvinux> tadzik:  :)
15:58:46 <stephg> works for me
15:58:53 <Tofe> stephg: looks good
15:58:53 <elfio> good meeting!
15:58:55 <Jaymzz_> kimmoli: yeah network is terrible there :(
15:58:58 <elfio> thank you guys
15:59:08 <kimmoli> JvD_: bring some stickers :)
15:59:16 <Amarok01> Hope to get another Jolla C device in the meantime
15:59:18 <ced117> i wont be available, but not a problem
15:59:25 <Jaymzz_> guys before y'all leave, please vote on Monday 6th of March 09:00 UTC
15:59:45 <kimmoli> +1
15:59:46 <stephg> +1
15:59:48 <Tofe> +1
15:59:59 <corvinux> Mash Networking with P2P maybe do the trick.
16:00:01 <Amarok01> +1
16:00:07 <Drummer12> Can only paticipate on weekend but shouldn't be a showstopper :D just reading the logs :)
16:00:23 <leszek> +1
16:00:25 <Jaymzz_> Alright it's set! Thank you all for this meeting! Thanks stephg and sledges for the stream!
16:00:27 <ced117> good solution Drummer12 ;)
16:00:32 <stephg> coolthanks Jaymzz_
16:00:32 <Znurre> thank you :)
16:00:37 <ced117> thank you Jaymzz_ ;)
16:00:42 <Jaymzz_> #endmeeting