08:00:02 <Jaymzz_> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – May 17th 2017
08:00:02 <merbot> Meeting started Wed May 17 08:00:02 2017 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
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08:00:16 <Jaymzz_> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2017-May/007896.html
08:00:24 <Jaymzz_> I am the meeting’s chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:00:36 <Jaymzz_> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:00:55 <kimmoli> #info Kimmo Lindholm, TOHs, apps, porting, adhoc, community, whatnot
08:01:03 <Jaymzz_> #info James Noori - Community Manager at Jolla
08:01:13 <nh1402> #info nh1402, community member
08:01:19 <leszek> hi
08:01:25 <dmnk> #info dmnk, community member
08:01:31 <leszek> #info Leszek Lesner, community member & dev
08:01:40 <occirol[m]> #info Fabien - Community member, developer, sysadmin
08:01:40 <chriadam> #info Chris Adams, developer at Jolla
08:01:59 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, sailor at Jolla
08:02:16 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:02:27 <tbr> #info Thomas, mer community
08:03:34 <jwalck> #info Jonatan Walck, community member
08:03:49 <kat6> #info Vishnu, community
08:03:55 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community
08:04:17 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson, sailor
08:05:16 <Nokius> #info Nokius, community
08:06:17 <Jaymzz_> #topic Sony Xperia X camera support full or limited (Like AOSP driver)? (Asked by leszek – 10 minutes)
08:06:29 <Jaymzz_> #info Sony disables some camera features for AOSP (Some need proprietary stuff or patented ones). Is Sailfish OS on Xperia X getting the full support or only AOSP support (which is pretty limited)?
08:06:38 <Jaymzz_> leszek: the stage is yours :)
08:06:48 <leszek> * Unlocking the bootloader on Xperia devices and installing AOSP cuts proprietary software features for the camera like
08:06:49 <spiiroin> #info Simo Piiroinen, developer at Jolla
08:06:50 <leszek> * X-Reality color management
08:06:52 <leszek> * color calibration in general
08:06:54 <leszek> * BIONZ image processor
08:06:56 <leszek> * active noise cancelling technologies
08:06:58 <leszek> * basically the images captured by the camera become very bad especially for low light
08:07:00 <leszek> * Does SailfishOS on Xperia X cut those features aswell or is able to use some of those proprietary camera features
08:07:38 <Jaymzz_> leszek: Btw, a bit off-topic, but next time when you are trying to add a topic, please edit the page itself instead of adding the topic as an answer. It'll make it much easier to spot. I almost missed yours this week. Thanks!
08:07:57 <leszek> ah ok
08:09:21 <Jaymzz_> Thank you! Okay, we have sledges and abranson talking HW adaptation this week. Let's see what they have to comment on this topic!
08:09:28 <abranson> hiya
08:09:57 <abranson> so, the sailfish port is based on the aosp distro that sony open mobile provide
08:10:51 <abranson> we take off all the javer etc, and put sailfish on top. so we get the base drivers, but not the android specific special sony things like you listed
08:11:13 <leszek> so it is missing the drm needed for the better camera features (not sure if they are purely camera software or auto applied driver features)
08:11:18 <Venty> 'llo.
08:11:28 <sledges> we aren't sure about that either leszek ^
08:11:34 <Guest1812> #info Martin Ebnoether Community Member
08:11:37 <nh1402> but there are ways to keep the drm keys when unlocking the bootloader
08:11:54 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: there are?
08:11:56 <abranson> but at that point we are free to mess around with what's there,
08:11:57 <sledges> something that only prof. photographers amongst us would have looked into, but there are no such sailors in hw team:))
08:11:57 <leszek> sledges: maybe asking sony can help here
08:11:59 <eekkelund> #info eekkelund, late
08:12:08 <Jaymzz_> #info Sailfish Os port for Sony Xperia X is based on AOSP distro which is provided by Sony Open Device Program. Therefore we are only getting the base Android drivers instead of special Sony-made drivers for the listed features.
08:12:30 <bshah> #info bshah, Plasma Mobile and Halium team
08:12:30 <abranson> for instance, the aosp build limits the main camera to 8mpix, but that's done with a simple build flag
08:12:31 <ApBBB> if sony is willing to cooperate on this can they just make a specific for xperia SFOS camera app that uses all the bells ans whistles??
08:12:32 <sledges> leszek: those features might be in the sw vendor blobs that you download from sony's website, or only coming with stock android
08:12:49 <abranson> so we can switch that and see if we can get good quality photos at a higher resolution
08:12:53 <ApBBB> proprietary app that is
08:13:09 <nh1402> r0kk3rz: yes, I believe you can root the device, backup drm keys, unlock bootloader and then restore keys
08:13:11 <abranson> at the moment we've got it working with 8, and the photos are amazing quality compared to previous sailfish devices
08:13:32 <Sage__> The first release will be based on the AOSP release and the features included there.
08:13:40 <leszek> yeah that might be abranson still no comparison to the android version provided by sony
08:13:47 <Nokius> nh1402 r0kk3rz yes you can I did it for my scorpion but I never tried to restore it :s
08:13:47 <leszek> its like night and day difference
08:14:16 <r0kk3rz> Nokius: mine are already lost :( but it doesnt really matter because who cares about cameras on a tablet
08:14:17 <leszek> especially low light should be very noisy as there is no anti noise algorithm used
08:14:25 <Jaymzz_> #info The camera is at 8mpx at the moment due to AOSP drivers. Photos come out with great quality and detail so far. Our first release will be based completely on AOSP and the features included there
08:14:35 <dmnk> and you could have done that actually without the "cooperation" with sony, right? so where's the benefit?
08:14:39 <r0kk3rz> leszek: i imagine it differs between devices, but yes on the z3tab it makes a massive difference
08:15:22 <Nokius> r0kk3rz: as I understood it contians also drm keys for Sony media services
08:15:24 <Jaymzz_> I feel like this topic needs more than 10 min. I'll give it 5 min extra. What do you say leszek?
08:15:34 <leszek> ok
08:15:56 <M4rtinK_phone_> I think this could actually be an indicatiin if there really is some cooperation between Jolla and Sony or if Sailfish OS is just one of many ports in the xperia open program without any special considdrtations ;-)
08:16:04 <jwalck> leszek: there are plenty of free algorithms that do a good job at removing noise, if sony doesn't have any free code here I think this is better situated in the camera application or post processing
08:16:07 <leszek> hmm... getting 8mpx images from a 23mpx sensor.
08:16:09 <leszek> :P
08:16:14 <abranson> dmnk: the benefit is that we get to work with sony's aosp adaptation team directly so we're not having to guess now to do things.
08:16:28 <leszek> jwalck: yeah so the camera app should add those then
08:17:05 <leszek> abranson: would be great if jolla could push the team to allow at least using the full 23mpx and not only 8mpx
08:17:06 <jwalck> leszek: if it's interpolated from the full sensor I think 8MP is more than enough, but if I understood from above the resolution might be fixable as well
08:17:42 <abranson> the aosp guys are of the opinion that 8mpx is the optimum resolution here. 23 is unmanageable.
08:17:48 <dmnk> @abranson: so it's a helping hand, but no access to intellectual property / drivers, ... in addition to what's available to everyone else? (better than nothing, but cooperation induced more to hope for ;) )
08:17:49 <Jaymzz_> #info The benefit of cooperating with Sony is that we are now working directly with their AOSP team and we wouldn't need to guess anything while doing HW adaptation.
08:17:54 <leszek> are there any limitations on video recording ?
08:18:00 <nh1402> do you lose the slow-motion video capture with the AOSP camera stuff?
08:18:10 <abranson> dunno yet
08:18:18 <jwalck> megapixels has quite little to do with good images. I remember digital cameras when 3 MP was top of the line and they already trumped film in many senarios!
08:18:25 <leszek> FullHD with 60fps should be possible I hope
08:18:28 <abranson> we'll let you know when we get to that bit
08:18:32 <Jaymzz_> #info 8mpx is curently the optimum resolution as the 23mpx is considered unmanagable by Sony AOSP team
08:18:44 <nh1402> what about 4K video recording?
08:18:53 <leszek> jwalck: I fear that the 8mpx is not downscaled but simply cropped on the 23mpx
08:19:02 <Jaymzz_> 3 minutes remaining
08:19:22 <abranson> but again, if it depends on proprietary android app parts, and isn't in the aosp build, then we don't start with it
08:19:32 <jwalck> leszek: then it'd be quite the telephoto lens, I don't know but that's not what it is from what I've read/am guessing
08:19:38 <leszek> nh1402: Xperia X does not support this as far as I know
08:19:57 <nh1402> It used to be the case that 8MP was the highest 16:9 aspect ratio that the camera provided even though it went up to 21MP
08:19:58 <abranson> leszek: no it doesn't work like that. cropping would give you a weird framing
08:20:00 <r0kk3rz> and even then the Camera app will have to support the fancy different modes, which isnt porting work
08:20:12 <sledges> sony xperia x is an incredible step from past jolla devices, even at its aosp state
08:20:30 <r0kk3rz> sledges: i look forward to seeing it :)
08:20:33 <Nokius> abranson sledges thans for the work <3
08:20:46 <Nokius> s/thans/thanks/
08:20:52 <leszek> still sailfishos on xperia x will not be able to use the full potential of the device
08:21:23 <Nokius> leszek: same for aosp on this devices
08:21:30 <leszek> in general I hoped the cooperation with sony could help using some stuff like this. Maybe it is good to clarify what the actual cooperation with sony is
08:21:32 <jwalck> leszek: from day 1, probably not. but it's the first step into a larger world.:)
08:21:35 <abranson> leszek: that's quite a pessimistic way of looking at it. we don't get all the sony gubbins for free, but there's nothing closed in there. the full potential of the hardware is right there.
08:21:48 <sledges> ... which is one of the reasons we are concentrating to make it a beautiful sfos device, and are prioritising accordingly
08:21:50 <Sage__> We need to take one step at the time, getting officially supported release for 3rd party device is already a big step, don't you think?
08:22:29 <leszek> yes a smaller step than I hoped for though
08:22:33 <Jaymzz_> time is up for this topic. Do you need more time leszek? Or shall we move to general discussion?
08:22:34 <abranson> with some creative hacking from crazy community members, the camera might end up better than the android version ;)
08:22:51 <leszek> Jaymzz_: general discussion I think
08:22:57 <Jaymzz_> Alright
08:23:06 <Jaymzz_> #topic General discussion (15 min)
08:23:08 <nh1402> speaking of Android, will Sony provide the Xperia apps, Playstation remote play, walkman app etc
08:23:22 <r0kk3rz> nh1402: lol.
08:23:28 <nh1402> since it'll have Alien Dalvik
08:23:49 <leszek> nh1402: I don't think so. But it would be interesting to know if they will work on the device with alien dalvik :P
08:23:54 <ApBBB> abranson: there was a discussion once upon a time to get sony xperia to use an upstream kernel with help from sony. any chance in that?
08:23:55 <nh1402> I mean it's still an Xperia device
08:24:10 <M4rtinK_phone_> yeah, IIRC there have been some people complaining about overagressive image correction algorithms of the camera on Android - so I guess it might even help in some cases :)
08:24:30 <r0kk3rz> ApBBB: upstream kernel project is still in early days, not really usable just yet
08:24:35 <leszek> M4rtinK_phone_: the automatic mode might be shit on some devices though the manual mode is excellent
08:24:49 <Jaymzz_> M4rtinK_phone_: I have seen dozens of those complaints over time!
08:25:03 <leszek> What about miracast support on the Xperia X? Hardware has support for it
08:25:10 <nh1402> ApBBB: and even then I believe it's limited to the Z1
08:25:20 <abranson> ApBBB: yeah it's not upstream yet - long way off. though I think with Sailfish running, it gives them more reason to go for a mainline kernel
08:25:22 <r0kk3rz> leszek: thats something killed with the DRM keys afaik
08:25:35 <leszek> oh hmm... miracast needs drm xD
08:25:40 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: :D i think the camera on xperia x sfos is better than on any other community's sfos port, and we had good cameras! IPS LCD probably contributes to the visual wow of the viewfinder too:))
08:25:53 <ApBBB> abranson: also tell me that veskuh provided you and sledges an X compact to play with :D
08:26:09 <kat6> Hi, I am slightly confused with the status of LTE and VoLTE. Currently, is it that LTE is supported, but not VoLTE?
08:26:26 <nh1402> sledges: how are you finding the dual front facing stereo speakers?
08:26:33 <M4rtinK_phone_> kat6: +1
08:26:34 <sledges> ApBBB: the way sony open devices codes are structures, is port once, run many; both kernel and android tree is amazing to work with
08:26:34 <leszek> kat6: it seems so. VoLTE is a mess to support as far as I understood
08:26:36 <abranson> ApBBB: one at a time is plenty for now thanks xD
08:26:50 <jwalck> a general question: What's the status of Bluetooth LE on Sailfish today? I know bluez 5 is now in and working fine (tested it myself) - but what would be needed to give an android application access to a BLE thing? what kind of api/glue is needed here? (i know very little about android)
08:27:07 <nh1402> LTE is definitely supported, I don't believe VoLTE is
08:27:21 <ApBBB> sledges: i hope X compact to follow soon after the X. X is too big of a device for me. :/
08:27:24 <kat6> leszek: yes, but what exactly does that mean? Is it that I can use mobile internet with a 4G SIM, but not make calls?
08:27:29 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: lots of glue, maybe some struts. dalvik gets zero bluetooth at the moment
08:28:13 <leszek> kat6: if your sim only supports 4g but no 3g or 2g yes.
08:28:20 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: check, then I'll put those thoughts at rest and concentrate at doing native bluetooth things! :)
08:28:51 <M4rtinK_phone_> what about SMS ?
08:28:51 <kat6> leszek: ah! okay... so it switches everytime a call is placed?
08:28:54 <leszek> Anything new on global mimetype handling across native SailfishOS Apps and Android Apps ?
08:28:57 <jwalck> kat6: generally you have access to LTE and either 2G or 3G, so the calls will be over another network but is for the user seamless (given that they have coverage)
08:29:02 <leszek> kat6: by default yes
08:29:04 <M4rtinK_phone_> no volte - no SMS ?
08:29:29 <leszek> SMS works over 2g/3g
08:29:36 <r0kk3rz> jwalck: once bluez5 is in properly, it might be worth trying to create the shim needed for android
08:30:08 <Renault> very few operators and phones over the world support VoLTE, so it's not specific to SailfishOS...
08:30:23 <jwalck> r0kk3rz: aye - but as of right now I think provoking me to do more things natively in Sailfish is mostly a good thing so I'll just ignore that possibility for a bit;)
08:30:27 <r0kk3rz> Renault: its becoming quite popular in india for instance
08:30:35 * M4rtinK_phone_ plans to travel to a LTE-only coutry (Japan) and wants to know if he can get authentication SMS messages
08:30:43 <r0kk3rz> Renault: they have a 4g/VoLTE only carrier
08:30:53 <leszek> Renault: yep and some providers just ship their own app implementing VoLTE for devices
08:31:05 <Renault> yes, it exists, but it's not very common now
08:31:18 <nh1402> It's the same situation with Wifi calling
08:32:17 <jwalck> a question I've asked before but which provoked good answers and gave good insights - and which might have another answer today: Should I run out and buy an Xperia X in anticipation of full Sailfish to run on it - or hold off for a few more weeks?:)
08:32:27 <jwalck> (last time the answer was hold on to my money for a bit longer)
08:32:28 <Nokius> M4rtinK_phone_: my JollaC worked well with German sim got the Operator spam sms too
08:32:45 <Jaymzz_> 5 min remaining
08:32:53 <leszek> Are the power management features working already on the early ports of SailfishOS on Xperia X ? Are there any problems expected or can we expect better battery life with SailfishOS (with maybe Alien Dalvik turned off) ?
08:34:12 <r0kk3rz> leszek: you're keen for the sony device hey :)
08:34:34 <Jaymzz_> r0kk3rz: Who isn't? :D
08:34:55 <leszek> yep. I think thats what many people are waiting for currently to get a new device in hands (got several people talking about how to get a SailfishOS device and most of them I adviced waiting for the Sony port)
08:35:03 <nh1402> I suppose there isn't any news about further collaboration on say the XZ Premium
08:35:08 <M4rtinK_phone_> Nokius: nice! looks like they still have 3g running,
08:35:10 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz_: indeed, it should be a wonderful thing
08:35:13 <dmnk> that brings up another question: how much work will it be to port to another sony device?
08:35:20 <M4rtinK_phone_> just no GSM
08:35:30 <Nokius> M4rtinK_phone_: yes just no GSM
08:35:42 <Jaymzz_> r0kk3rz: Yepp, and as leszek said, the best way to get a SFOS device is to wait for the Sony phone at the moment. I personally can't wait for a final version
08:36:13 <leszek> dmnk: not so hard I guess as same AOSP base is used and some other devices like the Xperia X Compact have basically almost the same hardware
08:36:14 <Nokius> M4rtinK_phone_: btw. you can pick traveler sim at Big Camera no need to order one to an airport have great time in JP
08:36:41 <Nokius> Jaymzz_: don't spoiler :P
08:36:44 <nh1402> Since this is essentially a ported device (albeit an official one) I'm assuming it'll get official OTA's. Does that open up other ported phones to get OTA's via the GUI?
08:36:50 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz_: best way... try only way :)
08:37:00 <M4rtinK_phone_> Nokius: thanks ! :-)
08:37:27 <M4rtinK_phone_> at leas I'll finally use the dual sim support of Jolla C :-)
08:37:32 <Jaymzz_> Alright peeps, 1 minute left in General discussion! We better wrap up
08:38:07 <nh1402> i'll take that as a no on both fronts
08:38:46 <jwalck> last simple question: is there a timeline for official announcement on the Xperia X Sailfish edition? a week? month? quarter away?
08:38:47 <Jaymzz_> sledges: abranson: Any comments? Or should we wrap up?
08:39:02 <jwalck> no pressure;)
08:39:13 <sledges> jwalck: Q2 as been said many times ;)
08:39:21 <sledges> *end of
08:39:27 <Jaymzz_> jwalck: The schedule is to have something to announce by the end of Q2 which is soon. So I would say expect something in June.
08:39:31 <jwalck> sledges: glad to hear it still being said. we're almost in the end of q2.:)
08:39:37 <ApBBB> sledges: maximum pressure :P
08:39:44 <jwalck> \o/ /o/ \o\
08:39:45 <sledges> jwalck: we're at half way
08:39:49 <abranson> nonsense. *weeks* left! lots of weeks!
08:39:52 <Jaymzz_> 3000PSI to cut us in half xD
08:40:14 <sledges> no wonder hydraulic press youtube channel is in finland xD
08:40:22 <jwalck> |------*------| - good relative answer!:)
08:40:31 <Jaymzz_> Alright moving on
08:40:33 <Jaymzz_> #topic Next meeting’s time and date (5 min)
08:41:04 <leszek> I still think port finished and device release is two different parts. So port might be ready end of Q2 still think that until devices come (so if you don't want to put an image on your own android unlocked xperia x) it still needs some more time
08:41:05 <Jaymzz_> So, two weeks from now on May 31st? 08:00 UTC? Does anyone have an objection?
08:41:21 <jwalck> nope - that's good!
08:41:26 <leszek> sounds good
08:41:46 <Nokius> +1
08:42:01 <Jaymzz_> leszek: You may wanna continue the conversation in the next meeting ;) Feel free to re-add your topic again!
08:42:11 <Jaymzz_> ok that "again" was too much.
08:42:18 <leszek> :)
08:42:47 <Jaymzz_> #info Next meeting will be held on Wednesday, May 31st 2017 at 08:00 UTC! Don't forget to add your topics!
08:43:11 <Jaymzz_> Thanks everyone for attending! Meeting minutes will be sent to you shortly. Cheers!
08:43:14 <sledges> yes, otherwise it's really avalanchy to get them all answered in a run-through of general discuss.
08:43:23 <Jaymzz_> #endmeeting