08:02:58 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – July 26 2017
08:02:58 <merbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 26 08:02:58 2017 UTC.  The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
08:02:58 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:03:26 <tbr> good moaning
08:03:46 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda we 3 questions here https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/
08:03:55 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:04:33 <M-schmittlauch> Oh, I accidentally even have time for this meeting :D
08:04:33 <piggz> #info piggz community porter
08:04:46 <stephg> #info Steph Gosling, community, lapsed porter
08:04:55 <nh1402> #info nh1402, community member
08:04:56 <pavi[m]1> #info pavi community
08:05:01 <piggz> im on a bus tethering, so lets see how my connection holds up!
08:05:08 <remote_> #info remote, community
08:05:14 <tomoshokas> info tomoshokas community
08:05:16 <Robbster> #info jim community member
08:05:21 <M-schmittlauch> #info schmittlauch, community, Jolla1 user, free software enthusiast
08:05:28 <Mister_Magister> #info Mister_Magister, community member
08:06:12 <tbr> #info tbr, mer community member
08:06:22 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, sailor @ Jolla, one of the few, as others are on holiday (so bearrr with us this time)
08:06:48 <stephg> oh dear :D
08:06:49 <piggz> sledges: how dare you allow holidays!
08:07:03 * sledges doesn't know what it means
08:08:08 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson, sailor not on holiday :s
08:08:13 <Mister_Magister> first time on meeting :#
08:09:19 <sledges> #topic Jolla Harbour paid apps (3 min, asked by adamski)
08:09:23 <sledges> #info What is holding things up regarding paid apps and IAP on Jolla Harbour?
08:09:26 <pketo> #info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla
08:09:37 <sledges> speaking of the devil? :))
08:09:41 <tbr> lol, that topic never dies, does it?
08:10:25 <marmistrz> #info marmistrz, community member, porting SFOS onto OnePlus3
08:10:26 <sledges> i think the answer to this is a word of the day: holidays
08:10:28 <pavi[m]1> What is IAP on Harbour?
08:10:44 <piggz> in-app-purchases
08:11:36 <M-schmittlauch> Is having paid apps in harbour still interesting for Jolla or don't they care anymore because of refocusing on B2B and OS license business?
08:11:37 <tbr> people don't like hearing this, but my opinion is: there are enough resources out there to do this independently on a per-app basis, if the developer really thinks they can make a profit
08:12:03 <tbr> and I've been saying this since day 0
08:12:12 <piggz> tbr: examples?
08:12:37 <pavi[m]1> piggz:  Nothing is stopping you to create an appstore app.
08:12:51 <tbr> piggz: accepting money via paypal or otherwise, activation keys. it's a "solved" problem in general.
08:12:58 <Robbster> tbr: whilst that may be the case, from a user perspective it is great to have a consistent experience. there is money involved here and trust is really important.
08:13:02 <Mister_Magister> Application QuasarMX is in demo version on harbour and you can buy pro version
08:13:09 <sledges> (extending time for this)
08:13:12 <pavi[m]1> Maybe after its published, the question could be how would jolla welcome those apps?
08:13:16 <Mister_Magister> they have their own independent system for that
08:13:21 <marmistrz> tbr, PayPal has quite big fees
08:13:30 <piggz> pavi[m]1: its not something i want to do particularly, just asking ....i have several app store apps, some with iap
08:13:35 <Robbster> the question is: is Jolla going to be putting effort into this, or should someone else solve it?
08:13:37 <tbr> marmistrz: and you'd expect jolla to have lower fees? LULZ
08:13:57 <M-schmittlauch> Yeah, good old times of collecting activation keys and trying to manage them
08:14:14 <marmistrz> tbr, I'd expect Jolla to take f% of revenue, not 0.35EUR per transaction
08:14:17 <tbr> Robbster: oh, I don't dispute that it would be nice to have, I just know that it's nothing Jolla can attempt to do now. Not alone anyway
08:14:23 <marmistrz> the whole point of IAP is micropayments
08:15:03 <tbr> marmistrz: there are other ways than paypal. My point was, there are options. Waiting for Godot won't help.
08:15:23 <marmistrz> tbr, yes they are. But the point is that it should be easy for the user to pay.
08:15:41 <marmistrz> Most users won't take the extra hassle to create $PROVIDER account. People are lazy
08:15:43 <tbr> marmistrz: you seem to forget that I don't dispute that
08:16:15 <tbr> marmistrz: so you can argue all I want, as I agree. I just made a tangential point and will stand by *that*.
08:16:24 <sledges> #info there is going to be an ability to purchase Sailfish OS image for Sony Xperia X (src: https://blog.jolla.com/sony-xperia-project-update), so this will at least stirr the purchases department, hopefully benefitting for other type of paid solutions (like apps)
08:16:32 <tbr> s/I/You/ in appropriate place
08:16:41 <sledges> pketo: do you have more info on that? ^
08:18:15 <pketo> Yes, partial support for paid applications is coming to store for this xperia case, and we can build on that in the future
08:18:27 <sledges> \o/
08:18:53 <sledges> let's move on
08:19:00 <pketo> but for now it will cover only the prepaid content provided by Jolla
08:19:13 <sledges> #topic GCC update (10 mins, asked by marmistrz)
08:19:24 <sledges> #info Even Debian has a newer gcc than SFOS! Maybe it's time too update or even rebase upon latest stable $FAVORITE_RPM_DISTRO? Outdated libraries really hinder development, know that from Fremantle
08:19:34 <chem|st> one piece of advice, bring an ethereum wallet to sfos that can handle contracts and msgs and you can easily implement any IAP wish
08:19:36 <sledges> marmistrz: the stage is all yours
08:19:38 <Mister_Magister> wooohoo my topic!
08:19:54 <marmistrz> So, to remind what I want to discuss.
08:20:08 <Mister_Magister> marmistrz: thanks for bringing that
08:20:28 <marmistrz> Currently SailfishOS has gcc 4. This doesn't even support C++11. We have 2017, there was C++14, C++17 coming out soon.
08:20:45 <marmistrz> Even Debian stable (sic!) has newer gcc than sfos. (Debian has 6.3.0 IIRC)
08:20:52 <tbr> this has been discussed several times before
08:21:01 <tbr> did you bother reading those discussions?
08:21:07 <atlochowski> msg NickServ identify hunter2
08:21:18 <chem|st> atlochowski: you need a new password
08:21:20 <marmistrz> I asked a long time ago, it was said that maybe, we're in process
08:21:40 <atlochowski> yeah I know :)
08:21:44 <piggz> :D
08:21:53 <pavi[m]1> marmistrz:  SFOS always has older software. It needs longer release cycles. It needs people to check softwares and it lacks people.
08:22:18 <marmistrz> tbr, I didn't have much time to dig through the logs, the issue came up a day or two ago.
08:22:25 <abranson> I started it last year, but got distracted with other things. there are a lot of patches on our gcc to migrate.
08:22:30 <tbr> so the real question is: has there been any progress?
08:22:50 <tbr> #info: the real question is, has there been any progress, in Jolla or the community
08:23:11 <tbr> abranson: could you #info that?
08:23:13 <chem|st> the most honest answer is, currently, Jolla has much bigger problems software wise than outdated gcc, in the future, when there will be 200 people with jolla, they may be able to keep up, in the meantime...
08:23:16 <sledges> we'll kindly ask tbr to purge the logs for the pwd slip up ^^
08:23:34 <marmistrz> abranson, why didn't Jolla upstream their gcc patches if they needed any?
08:23:48 <chem|st> sledges: streisand it?
08:23:58 <tbr> sledges: it's archived in up to 111 other logs, so they should *really* change the password (in all services that they used it for)
08:24:24 <tbr> but yes, I can drop it
08:24:46 <sledges> tbr: 4+1 logs http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2017/
08:24:47 <sledges> thank you
08:24:55 <abranson> marmistrz: one of the big problems is knowing which patches are still relevant, let along whether they should have been upstreamed ;)
08:25:18 <tbr> #info: abranson says: > I started it last year, but got distracted with other things. there are a lot of patches on our gcc to migrate.
08:25:52 <marmistrz> The main problem with outdated gcc is that C++ is the main programming language for SailfishOS and once you go C++11/14, C++03 programming is a nightmare
08:26:29 <nh1402> wait you can only make Sailfish apps using C++03?
08:26:37 <tbr> oh and btw: you can ship binaries built against a different gcc. It's just "fun" as you need to make sure you link properly on runtime
08:26:43 <Mister_Magister> nh1402: yep
08:26:55 <abranson> here's the project, if anyone wants to try: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/gcc5
08:27:10 <tbr> the 4.8 or 4.9 gcc sortof does cpp11 IIRC, but far from well
08:27:44 <sledges> #info community's help welcome, contact person: abranson , link:
08:27:46 <sledges> #link https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/gcc5
08:27:56 <marmistrz> One solution could be to update the whole stack, just as Debian does, and let brave volunteers test it and raise bugs. I think there should be a couple of such people.
08:28:13 <sledges> having one is a start
08:28:24 <r0kk3rz> marmistrz: the codes there, obs is there, off you go!
08:28:25 <sledges> (1.5mins remaining for this topic)
08:29:02 <marmistrz> r0kk3rz, if I had a working SFOS installation... :) [that's getting off-topic]
08:29:03 <abranson> someone told me that when Ubuntu did that, the whole store needed to be recompiled. so that's a worry.
08:29:03 <tbr> yes, it's all there and there are people on #mer who can tell how to approach such things
08:29:18 <abranson> there are a lot of useful yet abandoned apps in the store that we wouldn't want to lose
08:29:37 <abranson> that's a bit discouraging
08:29:51 <Mister_Magister> along with gcc glibc will have to be updated, no?
08:29:57 <r0kk3rz> abranson: maybe we need to do some github hunting
08:30:11 <marmistrz> If gcc changed its ABI from 4 -> 5, that would be a problem. But we can't sit forever on gcc4
08:30:41 <M-schmittlauch> abranson: Although we luckily have a high number of open source apps on SFOS, so maybe just recompiling them does the trick
08:31:21 <sledges> so, many unanswered questions until one smoke tests the new version, let's get back to that when more things become clear on the scope of the effort
08:31:30 <nh1402> but how many apps would we have to sift through though
08:31:36 <sledges> #topic do you need dual-sim F5122 Xperia X owners in cbeta group? (3 mins, asked by remote_)
08:31:47 <remote_> since there's a target in build tree in AOSP for F5122, producing test builds won't take much, I suppose.
08:31:52 <remote_> and I have a F5122 with no warranty, know how to use FlashTool and not afraid to brick the phone
08:32:18 <nh1402> I don't think the dual sim device has an image for it but I could be wrong
08:32:19 <remote_> if you want to test the F5121/F5122 build in parallel, F5122 owners could be of some help I guess
08:32:22 <M-schmittlauch> marmistrz: Usually everything C++ using gcc core lib needs to be rebuilt then, yes
08:32:54 <marmistrz> M-schmittlauch, IIRC Arch Linux went from GCC 6 to 7 without a rebuild of everything
08:33:09 <Mister_Magister> image for signle sim will also work on dual sim phone, no?
08:33:21 <Mister_Magister> marmistrz: same opensuse
08:33:22 <abranson> tizen is still on 4.9 iirc
08:33:27 <nh1402> Mister_Magister: that's not necessarily the case
08:33:28 <sledges> M-schmittlauch: marmistrz: please continue on #mer
08:34:24 <abranson> remote_: even though the f5122 is built from the same tree, there's a whole load of extra stuff required to get an image, that we won't be doing until the f5121 is ready.
08:34:32 <sledges> #info in order not to spread ourselves too thin, cbeta will first get on with f5121, when dust settles on that, we should be able to bake an f5122 image
08:34:47 <sledges> but like abranson says, building image is not enough
08:35:15 <abranson> but as for cbeta applications - lately i've had a few people asking if they can join.
08:35:17 <sledges> things might go wrong in dual sim department where we'll have to start fixing ofono and friends
08:35:40 <sledges> seeing as there are hiccups with mms, for example
08:36:30 <Robbster> there is a lot of pent0up demans for the single sim version. We should focus the efforts on getting it out.
08:36:57 <abranson> yes that's the idea
08:37:44 <remote_> at least it would be good to get it tested if F5122 would accept single-sim imege
08:37:58 <remote_> cause people already have F5122 phones in hands
08:38:12 <Robbster> remote_: seems a reasonable compromise.
08:38:13 <remote_> and they won't buy F5121 just for SFOS
08:38:44 <sledges> #info however things like producing test builds is bigger effort than it looks, we need to add a completely new device to our infra (even though the underlying source is the same), then run risk of further consumption of dev resources for dual sim support, so better polish f5121 first
08:38:58 <abranson> i wouldn't risk that. when modems break they do it impressively well
08:39:20 <remote_> android image works, tested it myself
08:40:18 <sledges> we're out of time for this one, let's move to general discussion
08:40:25 <sledges> #topic General discussion
08:40:42 <sledges> (15mins)
08:40:46 <nh1402> will the Xperia X use a newer version of Android for alien dalvik?
08:41:05 <piggz> on the X, is any of the droid-config source available, I ask becuase the MSM8956 looks similar to my port on MSM8953, and some extra configs might be useful for me ;)
08:41:11 <M-schmittlauch> The usual question: open-sourcing stuff is still dependent on the "financial situation", but planned?
08:41:13 <sledges> alien dalvik runs the same version across all the device range
08:41:33 <nh1402> so 4.4 is being adapted to work on the X then?
08:42:00 <Mister_Magister> Well i just wanted to say that my Moto X Force (which i'm going to port sfos) was crowdfounded by facebook sailfishos community in 1/4
08:42:01 <sledges> piggz: droid-configs and other dhd parts are tailored for production build, and would need to be decoupled before going out
08:42:09 <M-schmittlauch> sledges: except it is EOL like on the Jolla1, right?
08:42:16 <M-schmittlauch> *when
08:42:33 <Mister_Magister> sledges: you can info that if you want
08:43:03 <piggz> sledges: so, will that happen?
08:43:52 <sledges> piggz: -ETOOMANYDEVICES :) (see jolla.com), but we'll try our best:)
08:45:16 <sledges> piggz: approach from "what doesn't work" angle instead:)
08:45:19 <sledges> on porters channel
08:45:40 <piggz> sledges: camera and gst-droid :)
08:45:45 <piggz> k
08:46:15 <sledges> M-schmittlauch: holiday mode blocks the answer to your OSS question at the moment:)
08:46:22 <sledges> M-schmittlauch: aliendalvik is EOL on jolla1?
08:46:32 <Mister_Magister> Inoi r7 will never have aliendalvik?
08:46:43 <sledges> Mister_Magister: you need to ask OMP for that
08:46:46 <abranson> piggz: those need quite significant work for some android 6 devices and android 7
08:46:50 <nh1402> I'm assuming the answer to my second question is yes
08:46:54 <Mister_Magister> sledges: what is OMP
08:47:06 <sledges> Mister_Magister: so you've got only 25% target reach? can you link of you want more support, otherwise there's is little point in #infoing that:)
08:47:25 <M-schmittlauch> sledges: ok, re-scheduling it to next time
08:47:42 <sledges> Mister_Magister: http://omprussia.ru/
08:47:51 <M-schmittlauch> sledges: at least AlienDalvik isn't on 4.4 on Jolla1 afair
08:48:12 <abranson> M-schmittlauch: no, that couldn't be updated to 4.4 afaik
08:48:20 <Mister_Magister> sledges: xda thread https://forum.xda-developers.com/droid-turbo-2/general/sailfishos-t3613569
08:48:33 <abranson> possibly because its droid base is less than 4.4. dunno.
08:48:46 <abranson> but that doesn't really have anything to do with the current version
08:49:02 <M-schmittlauch> sledges: the Jämsänjoki release notes only mention AlienDalvik improvements for JollaC (not even for the tablet)
08:49:04 <Mister_Magister> sledges: just wanted to point out that community achieved something
08:49:27 <sledges> Mister_Magister: still can't see the donate link :S
08:49:35 <M-schmittlauch> So AlienDalvik seems to be same version on all devices except when they're not updated anymore.
08:50:06 <sledges> Mister_Magister: ok, will info that ;)
08:50:33 <sledges> #info Mister_Magister: Moto X Force (which i'm going to port sfos) was crowdfounded by facebook sailfishos community in 1/4 \o/
08:51:05 <Mister_Magister> sledges: https://www.paypal.me/MisterMagister
08:51:15 <nh1402> abranson: you can boot a 7.1.1 anbox image on Jolla C but the underlying base of the phone isn't 7.1.1
08:51:20 <sledges> M-schmittlauch: yep, jolla1 is exception to the adalvik's version
08:51:22 <nh1402> although that is containerised
08:51:41 <nh1402> and kernel modifications needed for the containerisation
08:51:49 <sledges> (but i largely see it as android 4.x :))
08:51:56 <Mister_Magister> sledges: thanks
08:51:59 <sledges> 4 more minutes
08:52:26 <sledges> #link https://forum.xda-developers.com/droid-turbo-2/general/sailfishos-t3613569
08:52:29 <sledges> #link https://www.paypal.me/MisterMagister
08:52:34 <M-schmittlauch> sledges: So tablet will get AlienDalvik updates too? Interesting because of YouYota tablet upcoming
08:52:47 <abranson> tablet already had 4.4
08:53:30 <Mister_Magister> sledges: on xda when you click on my nickname there is "donate to me" link ;)
08:53:36 <Mister_Magister> sledges: thanks again
08:53:46 <sledges> Mister_Magister: well, i (and probably many others) don't know that;)
08:53:49 <sledges> np
08:54:04 <sledges> how's everyone spending their summer?
08:54:22 <Mister_Magister> waitng for new target on obs? :D
08:54:29 <Robbster> sledges: you insensitive clod, it's winter here! :D
08:54:42 <M-schmittlauch> Are people working on telepathy @ jolla? XMPP support still is a trainwreck
08:54:42 <sledges> :D i thought r0kk3rz would be the one saying that first
08:54:59 <Mister_Magister> sledges: also working so i can afford x force :D
08:55:01 <tbr> M-schmittlauch: that's mostly a UI thing though, isn't it?
08:55:14 <piggz> sledges: MTB in the alps :)
08:55:17 <M-schmittlauch> I know that at least 1 telepathy core dev is working for OMP now
08:55:31 <sledges> M-schmittlauch: yep, ping coderus and friends on that
08:55:48 <M-schmittlauch> tbr: Well, the low-hanging fruits are UI (that's why I'd love them to be open)
08:55:49 <sledges> Kaffeine, whom else i'm forgetting:)
08:56:03 <nh1402> M-schmittlauch: I would rather see people work on telekinesis
08:56:18 <M-schmittlauch> tbr: But gabble could also use some love: crypto, http-upload, message archiving
08:56:18 <tbr> M-schmittlauch: yeah, and sadly that's why they never got addressed, closed source (UI)
08:56:52 <M-schmittlauch> tbr: I reported some of them in december 2013 already |:
08:56:54 <sledges> we're dangerously approaching lunchtime in Finland (and the rest of the Eastern Europe), so it's time to wrap up (pun intended)
08:57:01 <coderus> M-schmittlauch: yep, Kaffeine. TelepathyQt and telepathy-morse maintainer :)
08:57:05 <tbr> I did a rebuild of the nemo message UI and it generally works, could be used to proto things
08:57:25 <tbr> sledges: eh? I had lunch during the meeting and that was already late-ish
08:57:33 <sledges> thanks all, and let's get back to our summer/winter worky activities:))
08:57:36 <sledges> #endmeeting