08:00:58 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – May 3rd 2018
08:00:58 <merbot`> Meeting started Thu May  3 08:00:58 2018 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
08:00:58 <merbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:01:11 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2018-May/008373.html
08:01:21 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:01:32 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:01:45 <Jaymzz> yep, topics won't change, but it's ok
08:01:55 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori, Sailor @ Jolla
08:02:23 <jwalck> #info Jonatan Walck, community member
08:02:27 <tbr> yes, everything works in the backend, you'll just not get the topic change feedback
08:02:28 <Ygriega> #info Ygriega: Independent SFOS developer (Twitter client Piepmatz, Payment framework Wagnis, founder of WerkWolf)
08:02:28 <jenix> #info Jens Mueller, community member
08:02:28 <ljo_> #info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community
08:02:39 <kimmoli> #info Kimmo Lindholm, community
08:02:44 <Jaymzz> tbr exactly :) thanks for the info!
08:03:09 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe, community
08:03:41 <eekkelund> #info eekkelund
08:03:59 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva, Sailor @ Jolla
08:04:34 <sledges> i wonder if merbot will pickup eekkelund's extra space there ;)
08:05:22 <Jaymzz> I'm sure we're fine with an extra space before the #
08:05:36 <eekkelund> we will see then :)
08:05:45 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:05:46 <Jaymzz> So today we had no topics, therefore we will have a 30 min discussion.
08:06:00 <Jaymzz> and go
08:06:00 <Jaymzz> #topic General discussion (30 min)
08:07:13 <lbt-> #info David Greaves .. Sailor and Mer guy
08:07:38 <r0kk3rz> not really sailfish related, but our old friend Antti Saarnio launched a blockchain phone yesterday - https://twitter.com/zippiehq/status/991745306638344192
08:08:10 <jenix> I know this is a delicate topic, but the deal with Russia Telecom sparked quite some wild speculations about the future of SFOS
08:08:46 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: Wild things are happening on Zippie's side! very interesting to follow :)
08:08:53 <carepack_> #info Michael Eisenhardt, community
08:09:04 <Jaymzz> jenix: You can ask your questions of course! we're here to answer
08:09:18 <jwalck> If we have time for it im interested in the status of SFOS and FP2. Is official support for fairphone 2 (like the Sonys) a possibility still?
08:09:40 <Ygriega> To the Jolla sailors: How is the 2.2 release going, any major incompatibilities expected which devs should be aware of and reserve time to migrate their apps?
08:09:56 <Jaymzz> jenix: The future of Sailfish OS for European market is not going to change. It is only going to get better because of a more stable financial situation that thislatest strategic investor has put us in
08:09:59 <r0kk3rz> In other news I did a build for the LTE version of the Sony Z3 Tablet that a few people were interested in
08:11:32 <r0kk3rz> Ygriega: theres a major pulseaudio update at least, but afaik its quite a major release
08:11:43 <Jaymzz> jwalck: We never took that discussion with Fairphone off the table. Unfortunately they did not see it as financially feasible for their company at the time, and FP2 is not likely to ever happen. But their CEO openly said during MWC 2017 (yes, 2017) that when FP3 hits, there will be new opportunities. We are however still looking into other possibilities, but don't have high hopes.
08:13:07 <Jaymzz> Ygriega: 2.2 is going well. We are in RC mode currently. About your actual question I am not thebest to answer it unfortunately. maybe sledgesmay have something ?
08:13:40 <jwalck> Jaymzz: thanks! As their model is to have models available and supported for a long time they're a nice target compared to the everchanging phone models of the common brands. from a consumer point of view it's a very good match so I hope you do what you can on your side to make it happen. For the current model or the next!
08:14:09 <jwalck> model model... first model = business model, second = phone model.:)
08:14:13 <jenix> Jaymzz: I see that. But I also see some fears which I don't find completely infeasible that the fork for the russian market gets some privacy restricting "features" which may find their way into SFOS in some way. I know you can't comment on this as its not a question. So maybe, let me take a different approach: I think Jolla can counter many of those concerns by finally making the rest of SFOS open source, so everyone can check chan
08:14:13 <jenix> ges and especially backports from the russian branch. Is there any news regarding finally relasing silica as open source?
08:14:25 <sledges> Ygriega: more testing groups will check 2.2, hence more apps will be tested. we'll inform about any breakages
08:14:37 <leszek> hi
08:14:49 <Ygriega> sledges: Thanks already in advance!
08:15:02 <Jaymzz> jwalck: FP2 was the perfect target really, and we even had a joined press event at MWC 2016 about it, but it is unfortunate how small companies have to suffer when it comes to making business decisions. We are looking to move forward, not back, so it'll most likely be the next device, if everything goes well :)
08:15:51 <leszek> I do the usual nagging for someone of Jolla to please take a look at qtwebkit 5.212 and import it into the repos and use it by default and improve its code (like adding something to stop autoloading of images)
08:15:53 <jwalck> Jaymzz: supporting FP2 is not going backwards. It'll be supported with hardware and repairs for many years to come (probably longer than the next xperia supported)
08:17:02 <carepack_> is a sharing solution planned between android and sfos world? this is something I heavily miss. Sharing should be possible out off jolla apps to android. For me this ends up also in the question how to define default apps. For example -> Twitter timeline click should open pingviini or piepmatz instead of the browser.
08:17:03 <r0kk3rz> fairphone was certainly still interested when i spoke to them @ FOSDEM
08:17:05 <mal> jwalck: is it android support you need from official sailfish? otherwise the fp2 port is quite good
08:18:46 <jwalck> mal: I have it on my todo to test the community port. it may very well support my needs! But I'm interested in Android support, and on a higher level I'm interested in Sailfish being an alternative next to Fairphone OS and Fairphone Open as a first tier OS. Another way to futureproof these nice phones and makes them easier to recommend to others.:)
08:19:24 <Jaymzz> jenix: Making Sailfish OS open source is unfortunately not as easy as everyone thinks it is. You see, we want open source to make things better, right? So, when we are 50 people in the company, (of course not all of us are developers) we don't necessarily have the resources to make the proper documentation and support and maintenance of a fully open source project. Example: We make the UI open, you come and submit some changes based
08:19:24 <Jaymzz> on whatever documentation we have released, we don't have the time to review that, ever. And it never gets implemented because we had other priorities from our paying customers. That makes things worse, you get frustrated, we get frustrated. Therefore at the moment we can't just make everything fully open source. There are discussins in the company regarding that and we will at some point take a route for doing that as we all are
08:19:24 <Jaymzz> for it. But let's see when that happens. I can assure you however that no seciruty issues will concern anyone! Not even in Russia.
08:19:25 <leszek> additionally to the qtwebkit 5.212 my merge request should be imported as separate branch (thats what I said from the beginning however I was told to do the merge request anyway)
08:20:48 <Jaymzz> jwalck: I agree with you. But not everyone neseccarily does. For now we are focused on the XA2 release, and as said, the high level decision is likely to be the next device from FP if that ever happens of course.
08:21:19 <sledges> contribution from our partners is primarily focused on Sailfish OS core -> Mer, which is all open source
08:22:18 <cvp> Is the release of XA2 image still in Q3?
08:22:22 <Ygriega> carepack_: I already took a short look at the Twitter timeline issue some months ago. From what I could see, that may be solvable, but someone would need to work on the Nemo Social plugin - https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/nemo-qml-plugin-social/tree/master Unfortunately, my time is very limited and I have other priorities at the moment.
08:22:30 <jenix> Jaymzz: I see the issues which raise from releasing code as open source. A possible solution may be to releasing it "read only" (we can see the code and check commits, but can't commit on our own)
08:22:33 <Jaymzz> cvp the plan is to release it in Q3 yes
08:22:56 <leszek> Jaymzz: you can make the UI open so that other systems can use it. So I don't have to develop an app for plasma mobile and ubuntu touch based on another UI alltogether
08:23:16 <leszek> and nope no one needs to accept patches from you. Just write you don't accept patches  and all is good
08:23:44 <sledges> read-only open source would encourage forks
08:23:54 <jwalck> Jaymzz: re: open source. releasing the software is not only a way to get community merges faster into SFOS. It can also be for forks, reuses, and general tinkering for developers that want it. Understood that resources is limiting and that it isn't as easy as pushing it out on a public git but in my view having the source out there under a free license is a goal in itself. it's a part of what I would
08:23:56 <jwalck> like sailfish to become.
08:24:04 <leszek> sledges: free software encourage forks in general :)
08:24:11 <r0kk3rz> leszek: or use glacier components
08:24:16 <leszek> they are shit
08:24:23 <Jaymzz> jenix: Thanks for your suggestion. I need to bring this up with the decision makers and see if that is a possibility or not. If you also watch our talk at FOSS North, we explained a little bit in the QA session why the open sourcing hasn't happened yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFF_cY6e-IQ
08:24:45 <sledges> leszek: but morally you mostly focus on making it better. if it's read-only, the only thing you can do is fork it :/
08:25:05 <carepack_> Ygriega: This would feel more natural. Thx for the info! It's surely not one of the most important things
08:25:11 <leszek> sledges: like I said it can then be distributed with for other systems
08:25:25 <mal> jwalck: also don't be afraid because fp2 port is called an alpha version, my view of alpha and beta is quite different from others
08:25:45 <leszek> like I want my browser to run on ubuntu touch, sfos, plasma mobile and don't want to code 3 different UIs for it
08:26:13 <sledges> leszek: you are talking about opensourcing silica only in this context
08:26:34 <Jaymzz> jwalck: Again, we go back on what my colleague said during FOSS north talk :) Make sure you watch it to the end where he explains it to someone who had the OSS related question
08:26:37 <jwalck> mal: I have been wondering about that but looking at the change logs it sounds useful enough to test and even use.:)
08:27:00 <jwalck> Jaymzz: I sure will! I wanted to attend FOSS north but couldnt this time. Thanks for the link.:)
08:27:16 <leszek> when I talk to my kde colleagues thats what they hate about sfos you cannot collaborate in terms of apps and of course jolla promises stuff (like opensourcing) and not doing it
08:27:24 <r0kk3rz> meh, there are other component sets you can use, you dont *have* to use silica, if you choose not to then thats your choice
08:27:37 <Jaymzz> jwalck: See you next year? :)
08:28:03 <mal> jwalck: everything else but compass works in the latest release (and I have a fix for compass already but needs more testing)
08:28:04 <jenix> Jaymzz: Can you comment on the future plans for Android Support? Have there be plans to get it to support andoird versions >4.4?
08:28:05 <jwalck> Jaymzz: maybe even likely but no promises:)
08:28:36 <sledges> despite all of the above, i do like the idea of opensourcing as read-only
08:28:48 <Jaymzz> jenix: Yes! in our latest roadmap blog post we explained that. https://blog.jolla.com/sailfish-x-whats-next/
08:28:49 <jwalck> mal: great! I have little faith in compasses in phones anyway so not high on my priority list.:)
08:28:50 <jenix> And is Myriad giving any support or hace they really pretty much abandoned AlienDalvik ?
08:29:05 <leszek> yep opensourcing as read-only would be very helpful
08:29:05 <Jaymzz> jenix: "Other important areas that we’ll be working during 2018 are updating the Android runtime compatibility to a newer Android version..."
08:29:32 <r0kk3rz> sledges: that'll basically guarantee a fork of silica
08:29:49 <sledges> r0kk3rz: i said "despite of all above reasons";)
08:29:55 <leszek> then let people fork it. Where is the problem? Firefox also has dozens of forks already
08:29:56 <Jaymzz> People who want a read-only solution here, please make a topic for next meeting and we will come back with a proper answer by then :) What do you say?
08:29:58 <jenix> Jaymzz: Thanks. Does this mean you're updating AlienDalvik? Or do you switch to a different runtime (e.G. Anbox)?
08:30:40 <sledges> mal: would Anbox work on FP for jwalck's needs? :)
08:30:52 <r0kk3rz> jenix: i expect an updated aliendalvik, it would be a pain to redo all the integration work on anbox
08:31:03 <Jaymzz> jenix: It is likely to be Alien Dalvik as we have the aquired the proper licenses to maintain it ourselves. But in case there is an unsolvable problem, we may need to switch to something else. Let's see! It's not in a stage where I can say anything for sure
08:31:09 <mal> sledges: problem is too old kernel, that is yet to be solved for 3.4 kernels
08:31:16 <sledges> ok thx
08:31:22 <jwalck> sledges: I know little to nothing about anbox. maybe?:)
08:32:09 <jenix> The way I understood AlienDalvik I always thought that it won't run after 4.4. Great to see that this may not be the case
08:32:10 <mal> jwalck: well it's android in container, currently it's possible to play games like angry birds with it
08:32:15 <nh1402> did I hear anbox?
08:32:29 <sledges> nh1402: not since you entered the channel :D
08:32:58 <carepack_> Something planned from jolla having a general sharing solution? We / I use a lot af android apps and sharing to them would be nice. Also sailfish apps should add a sharing plugin like linksbag does.
08:32:58 <jwalck> mal: my android needs are purely "one off" things so that might do fine!
08:33:44 <nh1402> I've sorted out my laptop at home, so should have plenty of space for anbox and other things.
08:34:18 <Jaymzz> Oh I just realised we have 1 minute left
08:34:35 <Pekkeli> Is there any news about Sailfish 2.2? When should we get that?
08:34:39 <jwalck> Jaymzz: time flys when you're having a good time!;)
08:34:46 <Jaymzz> jwalck: indeed
08:34:47 <leszek> does the new alien dalvik license mean you can also sell licenses in the store in the future?
08:35:01 <leszek> might be interesting for ports I think
08:35:19 <Jaymzz> Pekkeli: 2.2 is in testing. No eta from my side :)
08:35:19 <r0kk3rz> Pekkeli: as always, when its ready
08:35:46 <Pekkeli> Thanls for the info!
08:35:54 <Jaymzz> leszek: There are other issues with that, let's get deep into it next time. But I don't see that happening at least any time soon because of potential problems they may create
08:35:58 <sledges> leszek: it needs tailoring per port or at least per SoC
08:36:15 <sledges> and always - DPI
08:36:17 <Jaymzz> sledges: put it perfectly as always!
08:37:07 <nh1402> but anbox is generic-er why not go that route with Alien Dalvik
08:37:35 <r0kk3rz> sledges: but thats what porters are for!
08:37:41 <sledges> adalvik has too deep roots
08:37:51 <Jaymzz> Yeah...
08:37:54 <sledges> r0kk3rz: separate flavour of adalvik per port in store, done by porters?
08:38:15 <Jaymzz> I'm giving this topic a few more minutes
08:38:32 <sledges> you can close right after r0kk3rz says something :D
08:38:58 <leszek> interesting meeting thanks for the info
08:39:33 <Jaymzz> sledges: I think he's in "Typing..." mode
08:39:43 <r0kk3rz> sledges: it can be done :)
08:39:47 <sledges> or purported silence :D
08:39:51 <sledges> close!
08:39:51 <sledges> :D
08:40:15 <Jaymzz> #topic Next meeting’s time and date (5 min)
08:40:23 <Jaymzz> merbot's back :D
08:40:28 <jenix> hooray :)
08:40:59 <Jaymzz> Alright so as always, 2 weeks from now? That'll be May 17th 2018 at 08:00 UTC
08:41:05 <Jaymzz> Gimme +1s
08:41:19 <ljo_> +1
08:41:21 <sledges> +1s
08:41:23 <jwalck> Jaymzz: no problems here
08:41:30 <nh1402> +1
08:41:39 <Jaymzz> Alright!
08:42:04 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday, May 17th 2018 at 08:00 UTC
08:42:23 <Jaymzz> Thanks a ton for these great discussions everyone! Meeting minutes will be sent out shortly. Cheers!
08:42:26 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting