09:00:02 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 10th January 2019
09:00:02 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 10 09:00:02 2019 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
09:00:02 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
09:00:15 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2019-January/008531.html
09:00:25 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
09:00:38 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
09:00:47 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
09:01:05 <leszek> #info Leszek Lesner - Community member + Dev
09:02:02 <DylanVanAssche> #info Dylan Van Assche - Community & app developer
09:02:09 <lbt> #info David Greaves - sailor and Mer guy
09:02:27 <M4rtinK_phone_> #info Martin Kolman - community & modRana development
09:02:28 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva - privateer @ Jolla
09:02:34 <flypig_> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla
09:02:58 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson - Jolla sailor
09:03:07 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe - community hacker
09:03:15 <richrboo> #info Richard Booth - community
09:05:30 <Jaymzz> Not so many today :) moving to the 1st topic ->
09:05:33 <zotan> #info Simon Brown - community
09:05:39 <Jaymzz> #topic Harbour and it's place in the strategy of jolla (w/r to individual markets) (20 min – asked by tortiosedoc )
09:06:13 <Jaymzz> #info Harbour has been since the start the only place where applications are officially distributed and, most importantly, (to a certain extent) validated. We have seen a constant rise on the openrepos, not only in terms of users, but also in terms of functionalities (download stats, origin tracking etc) but this has not been the case for harbour. How does harbour fit into the "big localized ecosystems" picture? How does it currentl
09:06:13 <Jaymzz> y support this vision (if if exists)? For example, is it accessible from Markets like Russia, China, SA? Given there are no tools for localization, nor for tracking number of downloads per country, it does not seem to be the case. What is thy future, Harbour? The type of info that could be interesting (especially for localization focussing) is: is Harbour available on all the countries where SailfishOS is officially deployed?  Is Ha
09:06:13 <Jaymzz> rbour available on all the other countries?  How are "local eco systems" interacting with Harbour, if at all?  more questions might come up during the discussion :)
09:06:48 <Jaymzz> #info this topic is from the last meeting where we had to postpone it to this one, and here comes the answers:
09:07:05 <Jaymzz> #info Jolla Store is operational in Jolla and licensee devices in almost all countries.
09:07:16 <Jaymzz> #info Country ecosystem licensees have an option to include Jolla Store and Jolla distributed SW updates on their devices, or they can replace these with their own independent implementations. However, target is to keep ecosystem compatibility (so that there is only Single Sailfish API)
09:07:28 <Jaymzz> #info We are looking into most efficient ways of improving the developer offering and have expanded the team, but we are still very short on resources and therefore need to carefully balance needs. So far the focus has been on developing the SDK and providing more APIs with Sailfish 3 releases, but we do acknowledge that Store and its functionality is important for developers and users.
09:07:58 <Jaymzz> tortoisedoc isn't here today (at least I can't find him here) so I imagine he'll read the logs or will join later :)
09:08:15 <Jaymzz> But any questions on this one so far? :)
09:08:23 <DylanVanAssche> Is there any way the community can help here? Might be interested for those who are reading the logs later...
09:08:40 <DylanVanAssche> I'm mostly talking about the Store
09:08:45 <M4rtinK_phone_> any specific Jolla Store improvements we can look forward short term ?
09:09:32 <Robbster> #info Sailor @ private
09:09:44 <M4rtinK_phone_> also, would creating a Together question where people could wote for answers what to improve make sense ?
09:10:39 <Jaymzz> DylanVanAssche: I personally don't see how the community could help with this as it is (in my opinion) something that we at Jolla should take care of, and the dev community can contribute with their apps alongside us.
09:10:44 <HeinrichJolla> @sledges: Hallo and happy new Year! Great the bulgarian translation has made in the official release! Could we also add in the official release a line for [bg.qml] in /usr/share/maliit/plugins/com/jolla/layouts/layouts_western.conf : handler=Xt9InputHandler.qml ? So that it looks like :
09:10:58 <sledges> HeinrichJolla: please wait until general discussion
09:11:12 <Jaymzz> HeinrichJolla: We can take that later on during general discussion
09:11:13 <DylanVanAssche> Jaymzz: Okay, good to know :)
09:11:25 <DylanVanAssche> M4rtinK_phone: +1
09:11:40 <HeinrichJolla> Sorry, I thought Im PMing sledges
09:12:22 <leszek> welcome to IRC
09:12:56 <Jaymzz> M4rtinK_phone_: I would always say that a TJC question with votes works in these kind of situations. It helps give us an insight of what can be done better and what improvements the community wants. We can't promise to make everything happen (or at least at the same time) but it is good info to have!
09:13:20 <r0kk3rz> there should be a goldmine of stuff in there already
09:13:54 <r0kk3rz> i think the #1 issue was seeing comments on harbour website
09:14:20 <tortoisedoc> hello
09:14:24 <M4rtinK_phone_> so should I create one new voting/prioritisation question ? or all the existing ones good enought ?
09:14:25 <tortoisedoc> sorry I was late :P
09:14:29 <Jaymzz> There usually is. And we do read them when it is time for that specific topic :)
09:14:38 <Jaymzz> tortoisedoc: Hey! We're still on your topic
09:14:52 <Jaymzz> You can read the logs for the answers we have provided you!
09:14:57 <M4rtinK_phone_> and would still like to know if some improvements are already in progress ;-)
09:14:57 <tortoisedoc> @Jaymzz : thanks
09:16:49 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, so late...
09:17:35 <Jaymzz> M4rtinK_phone_: That brings up a whole new discussion. do we have pketo here for a comment? :)
09:18:04 <Jaymzz> dcaliste: You're just about on time for your topic ;)
09:18:34 <dcaliste> Jaymzz: yes I'm reading backlog
09:18:41 <Jaymzz> Great
09:21:34 <Jaymzz> M4rtinK_phone_: Even if you don't get an answer now, you can always wait until general discussion or even next meeting to bring it up again
09:22:20 <Jaymzz> I'm having trouble finding pketo for a comment on this at the moment.
09:22:27 <M4rtinK_phone_> thats true
09:22:49 <lbt> Jaymzz: I'm fairly sure he got called outside
09:23:21 <Jaymzz> Ah alrigt, then we can move on to the next topic as this one has 2 minutes left and I don't see anything more being answered in the remaining minutes.
09:24:18 <Jaymzz> #topic how can the community help to improve the state of QtWayland in Mer? (20 min – asked by dcaliste )
09:24:29 <Jaymzz> #info Currently QtWayland:master is ancient and there are a lot of branches with piles of commits, current one seems to be mer-5.4. I guess the rebase on Qt5.9 is in mer-5.9. Would it make sense to use a submodule pointing to upstream (with a checkout at 5.6.3 currently), with the additional commits as git-patches, as it is done for messagingframework ? Then, all additional commits can be reviewed to be upstreamed if it make sense a
09:24:29 <Jaymzz> nd later upgrades to more recent version of Qt would be easier. If it makes sense, would community help welcome here ? In which forms: additional commit review on upstream:master, creation of a submodule and git-patch for every additional commits ?
09:25:08 <Jaymzz> And here comes the answer:
09:25:21 <Jaymzz> #info The current QtWayland is based on Qt 5.4 because the QtWayland API was rewritten in a non-backwards compatible fashion after 5.4 and the homescreen and other software needed significant adaptation. That has mostly been done for Qt 5.9 and because most changes were upstreamed the delta to the upstream 5.9 is small.
09:25:27 <Jaymzz> #info The best way to manage patches on top of an upstream branch is contentious and many methods have been tried with mer projects. A different model would have to be adopted universally across all the mer Qt forks at least and require the support of the people maintainting them.
09:28:15 <dcaliste> Ok, I see. So the best thing to do about QtWayland is to wait for Qt5.9 upgrade since the rebase on master has been done, or at least the delta being reduced.
09:29:17 <Jaymzz> Yes :)
09:29:27 <dcaliste> Do one know if only mer-lipstick has to be updated to the API > 5.4 or some code in jolla-lipstick has to be updated also ?
09:29:43 <zotan> Is there any info on when the Qt5.9 upgrade is expected?
09:31:28 <dcaliste> Yes hopefully it will come sooner than later, it's very fragile to lag behind upstream.
09:31:44 <lbt> FYI : https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/qtwayland
09:32:00 <Jaymzz> #link https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/qtwayland
09:33:16 <r0kk3rz> dcaliste: btw theres an outstanding issue with updated wayland which would be nice to solve too
09:34:02 <dcaliste> r0kk3rz: have you a MER bug for this with a description of the issue?
09:34:09 <r0kk3rz> there is one yeah
09:34:36 <M4rtinK_phone_> does this also bump the overall Wayland protocol version ?
09:34:49 <M4rtinK_phone_> or has that been already done ?
09:35:28 <r0kk3rz> dcaliste: the issue is actually with sdl2, but ultimately blocking the wayland update - https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/libsdl/merge_requests/2
09:35:31 <M4rtinK_phone_> IIRC ancient Wayland was a problem for porting of Firefox, VLC and other projects (GTK3 ?)
09:36:48 <dcaliste> M4rtinK_phone_: yes that's the root reason why I begun to investigate this. GTK3 compiles well but cannot be tested because old QtWayland is not providing xdg-shell protocol, as far as I've understand.
09:38:05 <Jaymzz> Sorry guys, got dropped out. Getting a new router today, the current one sucks...
09:38:28 <r0kk3rz> yeah i didnt bother trying my gtk3 build for that reason
09:38:53 <r0kk3rz> but you can put on new wayland onto your device, is will just break sdl2
09:39:23 <sledges> dcaliste: if you can find mer/lipstick API > 5.4 changes branch (this would mean it has been adapted to Qt 5.9 already), you or someone from community could see what changes are needed for e.g. nemomobile glacier lipstick home package. if you are still in the dark after, please create a question for next meeting so we can ask relevant sailors
09:39:44 <tortoisedoc> ls
09:39:50 <tortoisedoc> (wrong iwndow)
09:40:09 <dcaliste> r0kk3rz: thanks for the pointer, I'll give a look. About upgrading Wayland, I'm wondering if it's enough to obtain xdg-shell protocol or if QtWayland needs to be upgraded also.
09:40:43 <r0kk3rz> probably
09:41:03 <r0kk3rz> we were mostly testing breakages with current stuff
09:41:20 <r0kk3rz> and then waiting for qt update
09:41:34 <dcaliste> sledges: indeed I've looked at Mer-Lipstick branches but didn't find any obvious one related to Qt5.9. There is a Qt5.6  one though but lagging behind a lot.
09:42:02 <sledges> dcaliste: can it be that no changes were needed?
09:42:24 <r0kk3rz> dcaliste: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/lipstick/merge_requests/88
09:42:39 <sledges> there we go
09:42:49 <Jaymzz> 5 minutes remaining of this one. I can give it extra time if needed.
09:43:20 <dcaliste> r0kk3rz: I agree, hopefully it will come soon. I would definitely try to see if GtkWebkit can work there.
09:43:41 <dcaliste> r0kk3rz: thank you I've looked at branches, not MRs... My bad.
09:45:23 <dcaliste> So, plan could be to upgrade Wayland, see SDL crash and figure out the issue, right ?
09:45:56 <r0kk3rz> yes if that was solved then new sdl2 and new wayland could be merged
09:46:19 <dcaliste> This would help coming closer to a more upstream status for the windowing stack.
09:46:59 <r0kk3rz> which would be good, now that more stuff is supporting wayland
09:47:07 <dcaliste> Ok, I can try to see if I can be of some help here in the coming weeks.
09:47:18 <dcaliste> r0kk3rz: indeed.
09:47:28 <chriadam> sorry I'm late.
09:47:45 <r0kk3rz> typical queenslanders, always late
09:48:16 <r0kk3rz> dcaliste: if you need any further info, i can help out
09:48:30 <Jaymzz> time's up on this one. dcaliste do you need more time? :)
09:48:30 <chriadam> ;-)
09:49:36 <dcaliste> #info compile https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/wayland/merge_requests/1 and https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/libsdl/merge_requests/2 and figure out the crash in sdl.
09:49:41 <M4rtinK_phone_> I gues updated graphical components could help using more stuff from other mobile Linux initiatives
09:50:00 <dcaliste> Do we have a demonstrator of the sdl crash ?
09:50:50 <dcaliste> From the comment there, it seems that having a SDL demo and rotating the display trigger the crash.
09:51:25 <r0kk3rz> yeah, best talk to mal about it
09:51:33 <sledges> dcaliste: mal has been looking into this in the past, strongly advise to contact him
09:52:02 <dcaliste> ok, I'll do after I can reproduce the crash.
09:52:10 <chriadam> Jaymzz: any word from veskuh about Qt 5.9 upgrade roadmap, as that is blocking the QtWayland update to a large extent
09:52:52 <dcaliste> I'm already looking at issues in hybris related to wayland windowing and there are definetely race conditions when a window is destroyed while being swapped.
09:53:05 <Jaymzz> chriadam: Not yet, there still is a public blog post planned.
09:53:23 <chriadam> true
09:53:31 <r0kk3rz> just dooo eeeett
09:53:35 <leszek> :P
09:53:37 <Jaymzz> dcaliste: 5 min over time.
09:53:39 <dcaliste> It may be the case that rotating the display is triggering this code path.
09:53:53 <dcaliste> Jaymzz: sorry it's fine we can move on.
09:54:11 <Jaymzz> We're moving to general discussion. You can technically continue there.
09:54:24 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
09:54:39 <Jaymzz> #info REMINDER: new rules for these meetings for increased efficiency is that the deadline for topic announcements is 3 days before the meeting so that we can have time to discuss them internally. Any topic announced after that will be postponed to the next meeting.
09:55:24 <richrboo> Will the planned public blog post, cover off the roadmap for all Sailfish 3 features?
09:55:46 <leszek> just for clearification as some of the users I convinced buying a XA2 and flashing SailfishOS on it. Alien Dalvik is coming independant of a new update release of SailfishOS?
09:56:07 <M4rtinK_phone_> any plans to improve echo cancelation for speakerphone mode ?
09:57:05 <M4rtinK_phone_> the maximum volume us finally loud enough, but hardly useable at that volume level due to annoying feedback loops/echo
09:57:27 <chriadam> jusa might have some input on that echo one
09:57:45 <Jaymzz> richrboo: It should, yes, but can't promise it as blog posts change even until the last minute...
09:58:56 <M4rtinK_phone_> chriadam: cool!
09:58:56 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: echo cancellation (also via earpiece, not only speakerphone) works on XA2 (android 8), meaning that Xperia X needs to go to android 8 too (not being planned immediately, but community could be able to replicate xa2 adaptation to x..)
09:59:27 <M4rtinK_phone_> sledges: interesting!
09:59:42 <Jaymzz> leszek: Dalvik for XA2 will be released separately, yes.
10:00:00 <pketo> Regarding planned store features from the earlier topic: Lately the work on store has focused on the Sailfish X related stuff. And currently there isn't any developer related fetures on the short term roadmap
10:00:11 <M4rtinK_phone_> sledges: I can understand a delay but hope Xperia X can also get an update of the hardware adaptation eventually
10:00:21 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: but this means a reflash
10:00:26 <M4rtinK_phone_> better yet if community can help make that happen
10:01:08 <sledges> hence the delay, as such things just add more variables to the bucket
10:01:28 <M4rtinK_phone_> sledges: you don't think its something deployable via normal OTA update ?
10:01:39 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: oem.img is a problem
10:01:47 <sledges> we have several solutions in the pipeline
10:01:48 <sledges> need to  choose
10:02:23 <M4rtinK_phone_> I would personally not have a problem with a reflash
10:02:28 <sledges> well..:)
10:02:48 <mal> dcaliste: I was thinking of seeing if Qt5.9 would help with the sdl app crash when using updated wayland, my guess is that there is some mismatch how things work now
10:02:54 <M4rtinK_phone_> but I guess that would basically create two release streams for the X
10:03:01 <sledges> M4rtinK_phone_: bingo ;)
10:03:09 <leszek> we'll see. Best would be really a non reflash solution for the majority of people. Or at least a reflash with an automatic backup (or that does not wipe /home/nemo) or something like that
10:03:17 <mal> dcaliste: the issue seems to be that some memory is released in two places
10:03:30 <M4rtinK_phone_> not good from support perspective, both for Jolla & community
10:03:58 <mal> dcaliste: I know how to prevent the crash though, it's about removing one call to free in certain place
10:04:18 <M4rtinK_phone_> also I have a X with a smashed screen lying in a drawer
10:04:36 <leszek> M4rtinK_phone_: Jolla could officially deprecate the old base for the X
10:04:44 <dcaliste> mal: thank you for the details, where is the work around you have in mind, in which file ?
10:04:50 <M4rtinK_phone_> I guess I can use that to test any candidate images if needed
10:05:04 <Jaymzz> 5 min remaining
10:05:33 <mal> dcaliste: I'll have to find it in my logs, I'll send it to you later if that is ok
10:05:34 <M4rtinK_phone_> leszek: thats one way around it, but not very good from user & continuity perspective
10:05:58 <leszek> M4rtinK_phone_: if an upgrade script exists for the old base I don't see an issue
10:06:01 <pketo> maintaining two flavors for Xperia X is most likely not an option :)
10:06:04 <M4rtinK_phone_> especially if the updated image may still only come later on
10:06:07 <r0kk3rz> sony tends to drop their older aosp releases quite quickly
10:06:36 <dcaliste> mal: sure thank you. You may comment in the SDL MR in gitlab, I'll look at updates there .
10:06:46 <mal> dcaliste: ok
10:06:50 <M4rtinK_phone_> more user data & deployments will accumulate till then
10:06:52 <leszek> r0kk3rz: maybe Jolla should keep that in mind then and think about an upgrade strategy for the future to be able to upgrade the base
10:06:53 <sledges> e.g. old base for the X would eventually receive only security updates, so everyone would reflash-switch sooner or later
10:07:33 <mal> dcaliste: I had a look earlier and qtwayland had basically rewritten the whole wayland handling so might help with the issue
10:07:41 <mal> dcaliste: in Qt5.9 that is
10:07:53 <r0kk3rz> leszek: flashing system.img at runtime... hmmm, sounds fun :)
10:08:33 <leszek> r0kk3rz: there must be a way to do this via a reboot to recovery and running a script. TWRP allows something like this afaik
10:08:35 <M4rtinK_phone_> in any case, count me in for any image testing :)
10:09:01 <Jaymzz> 2 min
10:09:12 <sledges> thx, now who could i count in for baking such image?:))
10:09:22 <DylanVanAssche> Me 2!
10:09:48 <r0kk3rz> if anyone wants to try then join us in #sailfishos-porters
10:10:30 <Jaymzz> Alright time's up peeps!
10:10:43 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date
10:11:08 <Jaymzz> Jan 24th 2019 at 09:00 UTC ? :) I assume everyone is fine with this
10:11:20 <sledges> the one after will be in FOSDEM! ;)
10:11:37 <Jaymzz> Yaass
10:11:46 <DylanVanAssche> Yeah :)
10:11:58 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on Jan 24th 2019 at 09:00 UTC
10:12:01 <r0kk3rz> can we not do the irc bridge this time? it really kinda destroys the IRL meeting
10:12:45 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: Thanks for the feedback, we'll look into the best options. Maybe a live video would do and the chat section of that. Let's see what we come up with.
10:13:24 <Jaymzz> Anyway, thanks all for participating today!
10:13:27 <Jaymzz> See you next time
10:13:30 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting