09:00:04 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 21st February 2019
09:00:04 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 21 09:00:04 2019 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
09:00:04 <merbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
09:00:14 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2019-February/008559.html
09:00:21 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
09:00:29 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz: o/
09:00:32 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
09:00:48 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: \o
09:00:55 <ced117> #info Cedric Heintz, community member
09:00:55 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
09:00:59 <ced117> hello :-)
09:01:03 <lbt> #info David Greaves, Mer guy and Sailor
09:01:17 <Jaymzz> hi ced117 :)
09:01:52 <leszek> #info Leszek Lesner, Community + Dev
09:02:22 <r0kk3rz> #info Lewis Rockliffe - now broadcasting from southern hemisphere
09:02:33 <pasik> #info Pasi Karkkainen, community member
09:02:49 <Karry> #info Lukas Karas - community member, developer
09:03:06 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community dev
09:03:26 <louisdk> # info Louis - community member
09:03:41 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla
09:03:44 <chriadam> #info Chris Adams, developer at Jolla
09:04:35 <Jaymzz> louisdk: hey man could you remove the space between # and "info" ? that way it logs correctly :) takk!
09:04:51 <louisdk> #info Louis - community member
09:04:59 <louisdk> #info Louis - community member
09:05:11 <louisdk> Jaymzz, hope that'll do :)
09:05:21 <Jaymzz> louisdk: yes! awesome :)
09:06:10 <Jaymzz> #topic Future of Alien Dalvik for Xperia X (asked by LouisDK – 15 min)
09:06:20 <Jaymzz> #info Alien Davik for Xperia X is currently stuck at Android 4.4. Is there any chance we'll see a version bump?
09:06:49 <Jaymzz> louisdk: so I'm just going to paste what we have on our curent Q&A at jolla.com/sailfishx just to log it here, then we discuss '
09:07:05 <Jaymzz> #info The Android application support in Sailfish OS upgrade from Android 4.4.4 apps to Android 8.1 apps is a major architectural rework, and depends on a whole new hardware adaptation software (aka baseport) based on Android 8. The Sailfish OS hardware adaptation for Xperia X devices is based on Android 6 baseport, which as such is incompatible with the our new Android application support.With Jolla’s very limited resources, we
09:07:05 <Jaymzz> have the chance to work on either one at a time, and we chose to develop and maturize the new Android 8.1 app support in Xperia XA2 product range. As stated earlier we will look into whether supporting other Sailfish devices (like Xperia X) is feasible only after we’ve got the support in XA2 in good enough maturity level and well stabilized.Also, please note that as communicated we will continue providing Sailfish OS updates for
09:07:05 <Jaymzz> Xperia X, and the above concerns only the Android app support functionality.
09:08:04 <Jaymzz> Ah, need to do it again, there was a space before # info...
09:08:10 <Jaymzz> #info The Android application support in Sailfish OS upgrade from Android 4.4.4 apps to Android 8.1 apps is a major architectural rework, and depends on a whole new hardware adaptation software (aka baseport) based on Android 8. The Sailfish OS hardware adaptation for Xperia X devices is based on Android 6 baseport, which as such is incompatible with the our new Android application support.With Jolla’s very limited resources, we h
09:08:10 <Jaymzz> ave the chance to work on either one at a time, and we chose to develop and maturize the new Android 8.1 app support in Xperia XA2 product range. As stated earlier we will look into whether supporting other Sailfish devices (like Xperia X) is feasible only after we’ve got the support in XA2 in good enough maturity level and well stabilized.Also, please note that as communicated we will continue providing Sailfish OS updates for Xp
09:08:10 <Jaymzz> eria X, and the above concerns only the Android app support functionality.
09:08:34 <Jaymzz> There we go. So, louisdk, have you read this one on our Q&A before? :)
09:09:49 <louisdk> Jaymzz, Yes I have. I wanted to know if there was an update since at have some apps that'll require Android 5+ after the 1th af April. If there's nothing new let's go to next topic :)
09:11:20 <Jaymzz> louisdk: Yeah unfortunately we don't have an update on that yet, but we never say never so maybe at some point in the near future there will be a window of time which we can dedicate to this. However, we only need to wait and see if that will happen, as the XA2 itself still has a lot of hours on many sailors' shoulders :)
09:11:37 <Jaymzz> alright we will move on then :)
09:11:54 <Jaymzz> #topic: Compass support in Alien Dalvik (asked by LouisDK – 10 min)
09:12:06 <Jaymzz> #info The compass has native support for Xperia X however it doesn't work in Alien Dalvik. Is there any chance that this will get fixed on Xperia X? What is the status of compass support for alien dalvik on XA2?
09:12:12 <Jaymzz> This one is very simple :D
09:12:20 <Jaymzz> #info Compass works in Alien Dalvik on XA2.
09:12:43 <Jaymzz> So louisdk if yours does not work, maybe a reflash could help? Or checking the logs and reporting it?
09:13:55 <louisdk> Jaymzz, I only have an Xperia X which compass support for native apps. Hoped there could be a fix for the Alien Dalvik but I understand I needs debugging and time are limited :)
09:14:10 <louisdk> *with compass support
09:15:19 <r0kk3rz> i wouldnt expect too much effort to be spent on the old alien dalvik
09:15:36 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones, dev at Jolla and sailing late
09:15:42 <Jaymzz> louisdk: Oh okay, I read the details again and realised that I misunderstood the question alltogether. I thought you meant the XA2 actually...
09:16:18 <fravaccaro> #info Fra, late community member
09:16:48 <Jaymzz> welcome fravaccaro & flypig
09:17:29 <pasik> this is basicly related to the earlier question, but also this.. so here goes: aliendalvik/android8 update for xperia x; is there something the community can help in? I guess the first step would be to try to get the sony open devices provided linux 4.4 and/or 4.9 kernel working on sailfishx on xperia x ?
09:17:58 <r0kk3rz> get the aosp8 base built for xperia x, it should work
09:18:26 <r0kk3rz> anyone who wants to do this, talk to us in #sailfishos-porters
09:18:41 <leszek> pasik: I fear solely community. Jolla needs to concentrate to finalize the image for the XA2. Otherwise people will be unhappy
09:19:02 <pasik> yeah
09:19:26 <Jaymzz> pasik: The biggest problem with that is if we manage to do it, then we have to ask everyone who wants an upgrade to do a clean reflash, which we realise is not the best of solutions. A lot of people will not do it so we would be *kinda* wasting the time we don't have on it.
09:20:07 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz: thats ridiculous :P they flashed the phone to get sailfish on there in the first place
09:20:55 <r0kk3rz> many would have bought it with the expectation of a working alien-dalvik too
09:20:57 <pasik> yeah i don't see it problematic to require a new re-flash for those who want to get the updated aliendalvik support
09:22:06 <pasik> and there's the chance of new bugs, but that's fine for those people aswell, I'm pretty sure
09:22:27 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: Well it's not, because think about it from a different perspective. Many people do use these phones as their daily and are not willing to reflash it and go through backups, restores, etc etc. It is an inconvenience. Maybe not for you, maybe not for me, but we look at it from a more general perspective and POV.
09:22:38 <leszek> ressources ressources. Jolla needs 100+ more than everything wouldn't be a problem I think
09:22:51 <ApBBB> Jaymzz: if the process is easy enough many will do it.
09:22:58 <r0kk3rz> newer kernel with better power management, probably better bluetooth support, newer alien-dalvik. i think you can sell this to people Jaymzz seriously
09:23:08 <pasik> leszek: true
09:23:11 <louisdk> Yearh I'd do a reflash too and deal with new bugs, but sounds like have to upgrade to an XA2.
09:24:23 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: The process may be "easy" for you an me, but we are not going to make it any easier considering we just talked about the resources. I long for a day that we don't need to use the phrase "lack of resources" anymore, but that day isn't today :/
09:24:33 <leszek> There are definitely ways to not reflash everything. Though that needs time and usability testing and people working on it. Jolla should concentrate on XA2. X users will get normal regular updates. After XA2 we can talk about it if nothing else is in the pipeline. And then people will complain anyway if nothing else is in the pipeline. I mean even the XA2 is aging rapidly already and we are waiting for
09:24:36 <leszek> almost a year for a "stable" port
09:25:00 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: Even if we do, we go back to the problem of not having the time to do it at the moment...
09:25:41 <Jaymzz> leszek: +1
09:25:46 <r0kk3rz> Jaymzz: i understand the resourcing issue :) and imo thats all that needs to be said
09:25:58 <louisdk> Jaymzz, I've got my answer. We can move on :)
09:26:07 <Jaymzz> Sure, moving on :)
09:26:25 <Jaymzz> #topic Alien Dalvik support for Gemini PDA / Cosmo communicator (asked by LouisDK – 10 min)
09:26:44 <Jaymzz> #info As the sailfish adaption for the Gemini PDA is based upon Android 7.1 the Alien Dalvik version for the Gemini PDA will be locked at Android 4.4. Is that correct? Will the Cosmo communicator be based on a higher Android version thus allowing the Alien Dalvik version from the XA2 port?
09:27:09 <Jaymzz> So louisdk there is a two-part answer to this.
09:27:14 <Jaymzz> #info We can't comment here on Gemini PDA commercial plans as this is an offering we do jointly with Planet computers and we are communicating about features and plans in collaboration.
09:27:32 <Jaymzz> oops, pressed enter quickly ;)
09:27:39 <Jaymzz> but yeah that was the first part
09:28:32 <Jaymzz> secondly I can add that some spark is being ignited again around the planet computer stuff. So stay tuned for more news coming from our side sooner than you expect!
09:29:40 <Jaymzz> anything to add louisdk?
09:30:41 <r0kk3rz> i expect news at mwc, which is like next week
09:30:48 <r0kk3rz> so how soon is sooner than that :P
09:31:02 <louisdk> jaymzz, I understand. If there's nothing additional info let's move on :)
09:31:41 <ApBBB> i'd love a small phone surprice in MWC :/
09:31:50 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: insert [I don't know smiley] :D
09:31:59 <Jaymzz> louisdk: Alright cool :)
09:32:01 <r0kk3rz> nobody makes small phones anymore ApBBB you know this
09:32:10 <pasik> heh, totally unrelated; i just got a notification from my jollac about this meeting starting in half an hour.. and i checked the calendar event, starting time there is correct, so the notification is "one hour late" for some reason, wtf
09:33:16 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: Our presence at MWC is different than the preious years. We won't have a stand there. But we are present and we do have a ton of meetings planned. So while I can't promise a small phone announcement, I can say that this year will be as exciting, even with our different approach to the show.
09:33:56 <ApBBB> r0kk3rz: xz2c is ok(ish) even though i'd like something smaller. makes me wish i had some millions to burn :/
09:34:16 <Jaymzz> Moving on to the next one :)
09:34:31 <Jaymzz> #topic Keyboard shortcuts for Gemini PDA / Cosmo communicator (asked by LouisDK – 5 min)
09:34:41 <Jaymzz> #info Would Jolla be able to link certain keyboard shortcuts to certain swipe features regardless of keyboard support in the specific apps?
09:35:39 <Jaymzz> For this one, I don't have much to say as I simply don't understand the technicality involved with it. So I'll let other present sailors talk :)
09:37:28 <Jaymzz> Anyone? :)
09:37:50 <chriadam> there are a couple of things here
09:37:57 <leszek> From a dev point of view. Go back gestures can be called as a function so technically possible
09:38:26 <leszek> In general the Gemini is an ideal device for more keyboard interaction that needs to land in lipstick. Like hotkeys and such
09:39:44 <chriadam> yes, leszek is correct: most navigation operations can be performed programmatically.  but usually when an application is open, that application handles key press events.  so I'm not sure whether or not we have dedicated programmable keypress stealing built into silica..
09:40:11 <leszek> chriadam: the compositor can do this on wayland
09:40:17 <leszek> it can steal anything :P
09:40:22 <Coolgeek> that would be a keylogger behavior :p
09:41:26 <leszek> Coolgeek: the compositor is the most important part of stuff running on wayland. It can not only be e keylogger but also screengrabber. It can also fake key presses and so on
09:41:52 <chriadam> I guess my short answer would be: I don't know specifically what we support for that device, or whether hotkeys which are supported are "programmable" through the settings app or so.. maybe another sailor who worked more on input methods than I, would know
09:42:04 <r0kk3rz> chriadam: we have a daemon we were using for this purpose for alt+tab app switching
09:42:27 <r0kk3rz> which is, yes, a keylogger :)
09:42:35 <fravaccaro> wouldn't it be essential for the sailfishlite (or whatever is its name) showcased last year on a feature-phone?
09:42:49 <M4rtinK> if only Silica was an active open source project so that interested parties can help to implement this ;-!
09:43:03 <M4rtinK> *;-)
09:43:08 <r0kk3rz> M4rtinK: not now cato
09:43:17 <sledges> ;)
09:43:26 <chriadam> M4rtinK: indeed.  if you have concrete feature you want to work on, contact jpetrell to try to get NDA etc if you're ok with that route.
09:43:43 <chriadam> contributor agreement, I meant
09:44:14 <Jaymzz> r0kk3rz: that made me laugh hard XD thank you!
09:44:15 <sledges> chriadam: it was kimmoli who did a dbus(?) service of OnePlusX screen gestures (next track, camera, etc), one of the ways to address this
09:44:40 <chriadam> fravaccaro: right, the ability to perform nagivation programmatically (and trigger those transitions etc in response to keypress events) is used extensively in that feature phone prototype, IIRC.
09:48:09 <Jaymzz> So, I guess we don't have anything to add here?
09:49:09 <Jaymzz> If not, we can move on to the last topic. This one is already over-time but that's okay since the first 2 topics went by so fast.
09:49:45 <Jaymzz> louisdk: are you having connection issues?
09:49:52 <louisdk> - So essentially
09:50:46 <louisdk> If there's nothing more to add we can close that topic :)
09:51:16 <Jaymzz> Nothing for the past 6 minutes, so I'm moving on
09:51:17 <chriadam> think we missed something you said there
09:52:15 <Jaymzz> louisdk: You had a few drop outs, so maybe chriadam is right, can you copy your last few messages here again?
09:52:16 <louisdk> So essentially it comes down to this: Planet Computers need to agree with Jolla whatever they want this keyboard shortcuts/gesture support.
09:52:25 <chriadam> but, I have nothing more to add.  basically, I don't know what has been implemented there.
09:52:40 <Jaymzz> louisdk: Yes that statement is correct.
09:52:55 <louisdk> Jaymzz, cool. Let's move on :)
09:53:05 <M4rtinK> I guess this could be useful for external bluetooth keyboards as well
09:53:08 <Jaymzz> #topic Explore DocuWiki for the community wiki (asked by fravaccaro – 15 min)
09:53:15 <M4rtinK> just saying :)
09:53:17 <louisdk> M4rtinK, +1
09:53:19 <Jaymzz> #info continuing from a previous mer-meeting talk, I would like to present docuwiki as a possible container for the community efforts. Some upsides:
09:53:43 <Jaymzz> Portable: as pages are stored as plain txt files, they are easy to create, edit, delete, parse.
09:53:53 <Jaymzz> WYSIWYG editor.
09:54:05 <Jaymzz> Markdown support  (even GitHub-flavored one).
09:54:21 <Jaymzz> Granular permission system.
09:54:31 <Jaymzz> Multilingual support.
09:54:41 <Jaymzz> Intelligible and easy review/recent changes system
09:54:51 <Jaymzz> Easy to setup: no need to fiddle with jekyll
09:55:02 <Jaymzz> Tuned to work in shared-hosted servers
09:55:11 <Jaymzz> Being a wiki, it lowers the bar for potential contributors, as they don't need to get confident with developer-oriented wording and concepts such as PR, branch, commit, etc.
09:55:20 <Jaymzz> While GitHub/GitLab "could" do most of these, it doesn't mean they should be used; basing a wiki project on them is a bit of a stretch and not really future-proof.  A PoC is available here: https://jollacommunity.it/wiki/ . I'm up to provide the jollacommunity.it domain and server.
09:55:29 <Jaymzz> #link https://jollacommunity.it/wiki/
09:55:49 <Jaymzz> I believe lbt had something to say on this :) so I'll leave the stage to him.
09:56:16 <lbt> Hmmmm
09:56:27 <lbt> so I'm less of a fan of wiki's than I used to be :)
09:56:54 <lbt> I setup and ran the Mer wiki for a long time (and 2 others before that in different communities)
09:57:05 <lbt> also the sfos.org wiki
09:57:21 * M4rtinK wonders if the lack of a backing database could not cause performance issues in some cases
09:57:21 <lbt> I feel that they *should* be a good idea
09:57:53 <lbt> but the lack of structure and control is actually a big problem
09:58:00 <lbt> for ongoing maintenance
09:58:18 <lbt> so I'd rather put effort into git-backed documentation
09:58:40 <lbt> getting the HADK into git would be a place I'd start
09:59:07 <M4rtinK> also, at least for more formal docs having them as REst/md files in git makes it much easier to avoid spam and maintain quality via PR review
09:59:08 <lbt> the general mechanism for updating these has improved massively - it's often a few clicks and all UI driven
09:59:32 <lbt> yes - wiki spam is the main reason the Mer account system was shut down
09:59:45 <M4rtinK> so I'm basically with lbt on this one
09:59:46 <lbt> it's an attractive target due to the chaotic nature
10:00:22 <sledges> HADK's written in sphynx markup - would that be a problem? (that's after we've sorted the licensing)
10:00:28 <sledges> *sphinx
10:00:40 <lbt> technical detail - don't care :D :D :D
10:00:49 <sledges> ->resources :D
10:00:56 <fravaccaro> @M4rtinK database could be used, I wanted to highlight the plain text feature as to me it sounded quite comfy :)
10:01:09 <M4rtinK> ideally you want both as the markdown+git+PR system can be pretty heavy for some usecases/users, but then you need someone who fights spambots & maintains wiki quality manually
10:01:30 <lbt> git and such brings workflow
10:01:49 <r0kk3rz> well, then you need someone to review and accept MRs
10:02:02 <lbt> which includes Maintainers - that kind of role can easily be delegated
10:02:38 <r0kk3rz> but having some kind of process to add stuff to the sfos wiki would be great
10:02:42 <fravaccaro> what about contributors who are less confident with git? or multilingual support?
10:02:46 <lbt> it's often just a sanity check and it's the wiki-gardener role - but as a pre-commit QA check rather than cleaning up someone's mess
10:02:50 <M4rtinK> and the PR review process is already in place for other stuff
10:02:58 <r0kk3rz> we can bikeshed on what that process is after we have one
10:03:03 <lbt> fravaccaro: 2 points there- both good
10:03:09 <lbt> multi-lingual sucks balls
10:03:17 <lbt> wiki's don't help at all
10:03:47 <lbt> I have a great multi-lingual system designed for documentation.
10:03:52 * M4rtinK still remembers how there was supposed to be community contribution with review support for Sailfishos wiki "really soon"
10:03:58 <lbt> it needs a phd to handle it though :D
10:04:00 <Jaymzz> fravaccaro: I'm giving this topic extra time as the discussion is still going on.
10:04:30 <chriadam> r0kk3rz: this is not an answer to your valid query, but if there's anythign you want to add, email it to me and I'll add it.  but the real answer would be: I hope that with the nemo/mer/sailfish amalgamation hopefully we will soon be defining some account/process for the wiki too.  but let's see what lbt says there
10:04:32 <lbt> barrier to entry is actually not that high - and it's a social thing - we can help users get over silly issues like UI quirks
10:04:33 <M4rtinK> basiccally, you have the process already in place for text files
10:04:50 <M4rtinK> wikis need special infra for that
10:04:58 <lbt> yes - the sfos wiki also needs to be reviewed
10:05:20 <fravaccaro> the multilingual support seems pretty straightforward; you add a namepace with the unicode language code and then you create a page with the same name
10:05:30 <lbt> I actually don't like it as a wiki but any argument has to be considered carefully
10:05:34 <fravaccaro> or ofc you do it via GUI on the web
10:05:43 <lbt> fravaccaro: "you" ... why thank you for volunteering
10:06:05 <r0kk3rz> lbt: convert it into a jekyll site :) markdown all the way down
10:06:06 <lbt> and will you handle the addition of a sentence in the middle of a 5-page document
10:06:30 <M4rtinK> actually, wikis are also some sort of markup so the difference is really not that big
10:06:31 <lbt> fravaccaro: technically replicating in language namespace is trivial
10:06:41 <lbt> fravaccaro: keeping them in sync... not so much
10:06:56 <lbt> look at the work in pootle for device translations
10:07:23 <sledges> all gravy there `:D
10:07:42 <fravaccaro> true, it's the burden of translation :D
10:07:53 <lbt> and each "entry" there is a single word/phrase - not a complete page
10:07:56 <M4rtinK> for inspiration, this is the text file + PR based workflow for docs in Fedora: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing/contributing-to-existing-docs/
10:08:02 <lbt> so yeah - complex stuff
10:08:11 <Jaymzz> #link https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing/contributing-to-existing-docs/
10:08:20 <lbt> git handles diffs-since and that helps translators... but anyway... really complex
10:08:42 <lbt> M4rtinK: excellent - build on the work of others
10:09:10 <Jaymzz> fravaccaro: anything more to add?
10:09:41 <kimmoli> sledges: chriadam: ^^^^ yes me. onyx off-screen gesture thingy.
10:09:46 <fravaccaro> I'm keen on contributing with this, if not in mantaining, in the contribution
10:10:01 <lbt> fravaccaro: so please don't see this a rejection of wanting docs - more a considered response to wikis in general
10:10:06 <leszek> apros pros wiki and community I started a something here. Very very basic. But at least the structure could be interesting to reuse even: https://github.com/llelectronics/sailfishos-community-wiki
10:10:52 <fravaccaro> lbt sure :)
10:11:03 <M4rtinK> if somene has the capacity to maintain a wiki - go for it!
10:11:17 <lbt> M4rtinK: mmm I'm not sure I agree with that
10:11:29 <leszek> I mean we don't need a full fledged wiki. Github with md files is all that it needed
10:11:35 <leszek> PRs for contributing and so on
10:11:37 <M4rtinK> Fedora still has and uses a wiki for other stuff, even wit this docs system in place
10:11:39 <lbt> I would rather we as a community figure out a way to collaborate on a group-managed one
10:11:41 <fravaccaro> if anyone wants to take a closer look at docuwiki, I can grant admin access and check if there are stuff tat I may have overlooked
10:11:53 <fravaccaro> that*
10:12:05 <lbt> and that splits our very limited community resources
10:12:35 <lbt> I'd rather give fravaccaro some resources in the official sfos.org and support his passion to get things done
10:12:36 <M4rtinK> lbt: indeed, thats ideal
10:13:19 <lbt> at the same time I think fravaccaro would want to work with the rest of community to build something that works well for a long time
10:13:45 <M4rtinK> lbt: +1 (thats basically what I meant :) )
10:13:49 <lbt> it's not the technology (docuwiki vs wikimedia etc)
10:13:56 <fravaccaro> you overestimate me :D
10:14:13 <lbt> fravaccaro: haha - or you underestimate yourself  ;)
10:14:28 <Jaymzz> 30 minutes has now passed for this topic. fravaccaro & lbt is it okay if I move on to general discussion? you can continue the same talk there.
10:14:29 <fravaccaro> I built this idea upon what discussed in a previpus meeting, with a community wiki that would include all the tip6tricks buried in tjc
10:14:30 <lbt> plus you can work with others - collaborate
10:14:58 <lbt> so maybe we should have a wiki/docs meeting sometime soon?
10:15:02 <leszek> fravaccaro: thats a good idea. I also started with the idea the github stuff I created. Maybe we can merge this
10:15:18 <lbt> I'd like to see a way to get this into the official namespace
10:15:53 <lbt> leszek: fravaccaro: there are multiple aspects to docs : content / structure / maintenance / technology
10:16:09 <lbt> they should be reasonable independent
10:16:20 <Jaymzz> I see no response. I'll move on in a min
10:16:33 * M4rtinK will likely contribute to the docs once something is in place
10:16:43 <lbt> so when you write stuff - think of it as being words to read - not making a docuwiki
10:16:54 <lbt> aim to make it portable
10:16:56 <leszek> yep.
10:17:15 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
10:17:18 <leszek> thats why the github idea is imho a better one. But maybe we can discuss this later
10:17:20 <lbt> that way you get invested in the docs - not the github
10:17:37 <leszek> yeah concentrate on the documentation
10:17:55 <leszek> and have them stored already somewhere. Technology to show the data can come later
10:18:22 <fravaccaro> sure, we could have a group somewhere (telegram?) to go on with discussion?
10:18:24 <lbt> leszek: Maybe add a sentence to your github that says "This stuff is meant to be moved to the community sfos.org docs as soon as possible"
10:18:25 <ApBBB> all this alien dalvik discussion makes me feel a bit meh. i get it for some apps (ie bank) but in general i don't feel its good for SFOS :/
10:18:58 <dcaliste> M4rtinK: I agree, things like https://together.jolla.com/question/200017/how-to-create-a-calendar-event-programmatically/?answer=200090#post-id-200090 should better go into a *contributed* documentation, whatever base it uses (Git or wiki).
10:19:24 <lbt> leszek: fravaccaro: can you work with Jaymzz (and me and others) to setup a docs meeting
10:19:29 <sledges> kimmoli: how was that onyx gestures implementation/solution called?
10:19:40 <chriadam> for general discussion: dcaliste has been working on improving Sailfish Office; we are wondering if there are any community members who might want to help contribute there?  we have a meeting with dcaliste every tuesday at 0800 UTC
10:19:41 <M4rtinK> BTW, if you have the docs stuff as REst files you can point Red the Docs at your repo and it will render it as html for you & index it, not to mention improved visibility by being on a site where lots of other docs are
10:19:56 <leszek> lbt: added it
10:20:00 <kimmoli> sledges: gesture-daemon
10:20:04 <chriadam> anyone is free to join us to discuss contribution (to sailfish office, or caldav/carddav, or anything else)
10:20:19 <sledges> kimmoli: thanks
10:20:20 <ApBBB> btw any sailor has news for > https://together.jolla.com/question/97109/email-imap-idle-doesnt-work-with-both-connections-active/
10:20:28 <kimmoli> sledges: or gestured ...  https://github.com/kimmoli/gesture-daemon
10:20:54 <lbt> chriadam: can you #info that (and location?)
10:20:55 <fravaccaro> lbt: here on irc?
10:21:14 <dcaliste> About office, it would be nice if people with various screen resolution can test the regression test PR see, https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-office/pull/101
10:21:53 <dcaliste> These regression tests are supposed to emulate tap on different place on screen and see if links are properly opened, if search go to the next match…
10:21:56 <chriadam> #info contribution meetings with dcaliste happen in #sailfishos channel at 0800 UTC on Tuesdays.  We're hoping for more contributors to join us :-)  Especially e.g. Sailfish Office, but any contribution discussion appreciated.
10:22:22 <M4rtinK> ApBBB: I thin that is shirtsighted - I am afraid (and had many SFOS users tell me) that without the Android compatibility layer they would simply not be using SFOS
10:22:42 <Kaffeine> Hi everyone. I work on an integrated (TelepathyQt-based) Telegram and Matrix clients for Sailfish OS (not released yet).
10:22:50 <Kaffeine> I didn't try for a year and it turned out that the integration does not work: accounts do not appear in Settings|Presence page, contacts are not listed in jolla-contacts and jolla-messages do not show names.
10:22:55 <Kaffeine> I spent days on debugging and the today found that both CM (Telegram and Matrix) works well on 2.1.4.
10:22:56 <M4rtinK> at the moment you might need it even to get a reasonabky working browser (Firefox) for example
10:23:04 <Kaffeine> Dear developers, can you give any hint in what is changed in SFOS messaging stack between and
10:23:10 <Kaffeine> I made a list of components (10 open source and 6 closed source) and read all commits merged in last two years but didn't find anything notable.
10:23:10 <ApBBB> M4rtinK: i totally get it. but at some point SFOS has to grow out of it. Wont happen fast i, know it but it bugs me :/
10:23:51 <ApBBB> also any news regarding making pure maps available in the store?
10:24:10 <chriadam> Kaffeine: the contacts are pulled from the roster by contactsd.  telepathy-gabble is involved in the messaging side, as is commhistory daemon.  not aware of any specific changes, but xmpp isn't something I use personally...
10:24:16 <M4rtinK> ApBBB: definitely! but even then, unless SFOS cover 20-30% market it might be useful for some client and niche apps
10:24:28 <M4rtinK> Kaffeine: cool! :)
10:24:48 <dcaliste> office regression tests: they are a bit sensitive to screen resolution (should not be but that's the point of testing it) and I can test on a JollaC but it would be nice to test on other devices also to check that regression tests are reliable.
10:24:59 <ApBBB> dcaliste: is there an eta on when your  contributions will appear on the app?
10:25:16 <Kaffeine> chriadam: That said I spent hours on going through Sailfish.Accounts -> AccountCreationAgent->AccountFactory->Sailfish.Contacts PresenceListener -> org.nemomobile.DevicePresence -> contactsd -> org.nemomobile.contactsd.telepathy -> CDTpStorage::updateAccount() -> QContact -> libaccounts -> telepathy-accounts-signon -> mission-control-5 -> mcp-account-manager-uoa -> mcd on one "Accounts" creation settings page side and through Sailfish.Contacts
10:25:18 <Kaffeine> PresenceDetailsPage-> nemo-qml-plugin-contacts Person (SeasidePerson) -> selfPerson -> libcontacts SeasideCache selfContactId -> QtPIM QContactManager -> qtcontacts-sqlite ContactsFactory -> QContactManagerEngine -> ContactReader -> QContact::detail<QContactOnlineAccount> -> /home/nemo/.local/share/system/Contacts/qtcontacts-sqlite/contacts.db -> OnlineAccounts, Contacts and others table on the "Presence" settings page side.
10:26:12 <dcaliste> ApBBB: no I cannot give any ETA, it's not completely depending on my side ! Hopefully soon ;) personnaly I think it may come with 3.0.3, but that's onoly my opinion…
10:26:27 <lbt> Kaffeine: this feels like it should move to #sailfishos :)
10:26:30 <ApBBB> dcaliste: thanks
10:26:42 <chriadam> Kaffeine: right, in qtcontacts-sqlite we have "transient" in memory tables which store presence information.  those are amalgamated with persistent data for reads.  presence is written by contactsd as part of the xmpp roster change handling.
10:26:51 <dcaliste> I'm still working on the close part integration, responding to review requests, particularly on proper packaging at the moment.
10:27:18 <chriadam> Kaffeine: but I'm not sure what your question is: is it: do xmpp accounts work at all?  or is it: I have a specific extension account which isn't working, even though xmpp accounts do work... ?
10:27:44 <Kaffeine> chriadam: I'm talking about telepathy-morse (Telegram CM) and telepathy-tank (Matrix CM). Nothing about xmpp or glib telepathy part.
10:28:20 <chriadam> ApBBB: dcaliste has been very patient with us ;-)  as he said, hopefully soon.  a lot of it is gated by how much time we have spare to do reviews/testing/merge/tag etc.
10:28:30 <chriadam> Kaffeine: in that case I have no idea, sorry.
10:28:57 <ApBBB> chriadam: dcaliste was also working ont he email bug. but no news on that.
10:29:18 <chriadam> ApBBB: do you mean the email signature stuff?  that one is ... very close
10:29:40 <ApBBB> chriadam: https://together.jolla.com/question/97109/email-imap-idle-doesnt-work-with-both-connections-active/ this
10:29:40 <Kaffeine> chriadam: I have heard that you can have a similar bug in internal bugzilla.
10:30:12 <dcaliste> ApBBB: currently, the signing verification and signing outgoing mails is working well with both PGP and S/MIME, but I encountered some unexpected bug that should now be fixed, like one in QtDeclarative see https://codereview.qt-project.org/#/c/253820/
10:30:33 <dcaliste> ApBBB, the IDLE IMAP issue is still pending though…
10:30:35 <chriadam> Kaffeine: I can check tomorrow (I am not in the office currently) and get back to you if there's some change in messaging stack or telepathy stack which might ahve broken these plugins?  ping me or I might forget
10:31:11 <ApBBB> BTW does anyone notice his phone losing network and only comes back with a reboot? is this a SFOS bug or my phone is acting weird?
10:31:34 <Kaffeine> chriadam: np, thank you!
10:31:36 <chriadam> ApBBB: by network do you just mean mobile data, or do you mean cellular connectivity altogether (calls/sms)
10:31:56 <ApBBB> chriadam: cellular connection.
10:32:10 <ApBBB> no 4g 3g or whatever icon appears
10:32:14 <Jaymzz> 4 minutes left on this guys.
10:32:21 <chriadam> hmm, I have not heard of such.  which device?  and which version of SFOS?  monich ^^
10:32:30 <ApBBB> J1 stable releasr
10:32:54 <chriadam> (my first advice would be: clean the contact area on your sim card in case it's a physical contact issue)
10:33:08 <chriadam> but aside from that, slava will be able to help you more.  I know nothing about connectivity things really.
10:34:07 <ApBBB> chriadam: i havent removed the sim card since i got the phone 4 years ago. heh
10:35:21 <Jaymzz> Time is up for this one too :)
10:35:32 <Jaymzz> moving on
10:35:36 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date
10:35:44 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on March 7th 2019 at 09:00 UTC
10:35:50 <Jaymzz> Any objections?
10:36:06 <chriadam> I won't be able to make it, but don't let that stop anything :-)
10:36:14 <ApBBB> i only want to have great news to discuss in the next meeting :D
10:36:16 <sledges> Thaodan et al.: I'll add few more leftover topics from fosdem for the next meeting
10:36:29 <Jaymzz> Alright cool
10:37:07 <Jaymzz> That's it then! Thank you all for contributing today. Until next time [waves]
10:37:10 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting