08:00:25 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th September 2019
08:00:25 <merbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 19 08:00:25 2019 UTC.  The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Meetings.
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08:00:35 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2019-September/008872.html
08:00:43 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:00:55 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:01:02 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
08:01:46 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla
08:02:20 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla, physically not in the room
08:02:55 <flypig> There's a room? ;)
08:03:00 <Jaymzz> :D
08:03:06 <sledges> yep, chatroom
08:03:22 <flypig> :)
08:03:58 <KeeperoftheKeys> #info Eli occasional dev and bug submitter, recently started maintaining gPodder for SFOS
08:04:02 <sledges> it's virtual ;)
08:04:07 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor@jolla
08:04:22 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:04:42 <Aldrog> #info Andrew Penkrat, app developer
08:06:29 <Jaymzz> hmm not so many today despite the reminder. Don't even see the ones announcing topics doing their intro. Anyway, moving on to the first topic then
08:06:48 <Jaymzz> #topic 3G only 4G only (5 min – asked by carmeloferso)
08:07:06 <Jaymzz> carmeloferso: are you by any chance available? :)
08:07:14 <Jaymzz> #info there were some post on tjc about the possibility to add the 3G only 4G only options, as for some operators there is not a good optimizations on their networks so makes difficult to have a good connection, and for users like me that are using some networks like mentioned before, to have an option of 3G only at least, will benefit for better connection experience. some post of TJC https://together.jolla.com/question/23913/2g-3g
08:07:14 <Jaymzz> -4g-allowdeny-switches/ https://together.jolla.com/question/83007/force-3g4g-only-option-for-network-selection/ patch made by coderus for previus versions https://openrepos.net/content/coderusofono/patch-more-network-modes
08:07:21 <Jaymzz> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/23913/2g-3g-4g-allowdeny-switches/
08:07:28 <Jaymzz> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/83007/force-3g4g-only-option-for-network-selection/
08:07:34 <Jaymzz> #link https://openrepos.net/content/coderusofono/patch-more-network-modes
08:07:45 <Jaymzz> And here comes the answer:
08:07:47 <Jaymzz> #info Until we support VoLTE, "4G only" mode would mean no voice calls (SMS should still work though). "3G only" could be quite usable from the average user's prospective, though. ofono support for those settings is pretty much ready (although not merged yet to master)
08:08:33 <KeeperoftheKeys> Wouldn't allowing a user to choose in full understanding be an OK option?
08:08:52 <KeeperoftheKeys> (ie. show a warning that voice won't work in 4G Only)
08:09:07 <KeeperoftheKeys> (and sms won't arrive either iirc)
08:09:26 <KeeperoftheKeys> 4G Only sucks :P
08:09:29 <Jaymzz> I believe that would introduce a lot of confusion even with the warning message in place
08:09:54 <flypig> Could you still make emergency calls?
08:10:08 <flypig> If not, that would probably be a big problem.
08:10:30 <Jaymzz> I don't think 4G only would support that as it should switch back to 3G anyway for making any call (afaik)
08:10:41 <KeeperoftheKeys> you can't do any calling in 4G only mode unless the device does VoLTE which Jolla doesn't (yet)
08:10:50 <Jaymzz> exactly
08:11:36 <KeeperoftheKeys> but when trying to dial an emergency number the phone *should* go to whatever is available regardless of what the user chose
08:12:08 <KeeperoftheKeys> (incidentally is there any intention to start supporting non-112/911 numbers yet?)
08:13:13 <Jaymzz> true, but yet again that introduces extra work in so many levels...
08:14:00 <flypig> KeeperoftheKeys, could you elaborate on the 112/911 issue?
08:15:50 <KeeperoftheKeys> There are a lot of countries that use numbers other then 911/112 as their emergency numbers, the cellular network will in a lot of cases still route 911/112 to the Police but if you need an ambulance that may add some significant delay while the police try to communicate with you
08:16:36 <flypig> Ah I see. I've never had reason to try, but I always assumed it supported 999 in the UK.
08:16:59 <KeeperoftheKeys> remove your sim card and it won't dial 999 either
08:17:32 <Jaymzz> Guys, time is up for this one we have to move on. Please continue the discussion during the "General discussion" portion of the meeting.
08:18:15 <Jaymzz> #topic Planet Cosmo Communicator (5 min – asked by  VWrestle)#info How are Developments going for the new Cosmo?
08:18:17 <KeeperoftheKeys> if the phone doesn't "realize" what it is dialing is an emergency number it won't take the appropriate steps to make sure the call goes through (flag it and thus force whatever antenna is in range to take the call even if it means dropping another call)
08:18:31 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
08:18:32 <Jaymzz> #info How are Developments going for the new Cosmo?
08:18:47 <Jaymzz> The answer simply is
08:18:58 <Jaymzz> #info We have not announced official Sailfish support for Cosmo
08:19:56 <Jaymzz> I guess we can move on from this one as well
08:20:24 <Jaymzz> #topic gcc update (15 min – asked by rinigus)
08:20:34 <KeeperoftheKeys> What is the chance of working with HMD bringing SFOS back to Nokia >:-)
08:20:39 <Jaymzz> #info looks like gcc update to version 8 is on the way. What is a rough time estimate regarding it? Do you plan to use compatible ABI?
08:20:55 <Jaymzz> Answer to this one:
08:20:59 <Jaymzz> #info There are positive signs that update to newer version is done with a reasonable effort. We expect this to land in a release sometime early 2020.
08:21:29 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: Let's discuss during general discussion :) but for this one I can say that at the moment there are no plans.
08:22:12 <Aldrog> Cool :) gcc 8 is a good release
08:22:39 <flypig> Aldrog, out of curiosity, what's good about it?
08:22:42 <dcaliste> Jaymzz, do you have an idea about the ABI compatibility mode with earlier version ?
08:23:28 <dcaliste> From my understanding, app compiled with 4.9 will need a recompilation when 8.3 will land if the compatibility mode is not enabled.
08:23:41 <Aldrog> flypig: Full c++17 support, more optimization techniques
08:24:03 <flypig> Aldrog, thanks, nice concise summary ;)
08:24:45 <KeeperoftheKeys> does that mean that all/most orphan apps will cease working?
08:25:08 <Jaymzz> dcaliste: I'm not exactly the person to have an answer to that, but I've asked from other sailors to comment on this, let's see if anyone sees my message and comes over :)
08:25:48 <dcaliste> Not sure myself, that's what I understood from rinigus tests. Sadly rinigus cannot attend today, and I'm kind of relaying one of his interrogation ;)
08:26:13 <dcaliste> Thanks Jaymzz
08:26:56 <Jaymzz> No worries, maybe next time rinigus will be here and you can ask him during general discussion :P or just leave him a message on IRC
08:28:17 <Jaymzz> Alright nothing more on this one I assume, moving on
08:28:33 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
08:29:40 <Jaymzz> Anything? ;)
08:30:47 <richrboo> Sorry late to join. How far away are cloud services in Sailfish 3?
08:30:50 <flypig> Just going back to the emergency calls point, thanks KeeperoftheKeys for the explanation. I may try this next time I'm in the UK if I'm feeling brave.
08:32:33 <richrboo> The "Full Cloud integration" as per https://jolla.com/sailfish3/
08:33:50 <KeeperoftheKeys> It's not a problem unique to SFOS, it's also an issue with other phones, so I'm not sure if the correct way is to lobby the govt to enforce this or not, however we may as well at least have it working for our users
08:34:09 <Aldrog> btw is Secrets API harbour-compatible already?
08:34:11 <KeeperoftheKeys> (or maybe to switch to "standard" emergency numbers
08:34:13 <Jaymzz> richrboo: Can't exactly give you a timeline here, but it will be in one of the Sailfish 3 releases. Sorry for being vague but that's all I have for now...
08:34:38 <richrboo> Jaymzz:  Ok, thanks
08:34:49 <KeeperoftheKeys> If we're going to discuss harbour APIs what about MPRIS?
08:38:31 <dcaliste> Aldrog I don't think so :(
08:38:34 <KeeperoftheKeys> for one of the previous meetings I asked about transferring ownership of apps in harbour, I believe the answer was that it should be possible within 30 days, me and thp have since then contacted both the developer relations e-mail and someone specific at jolla and never gotten any reply whatsoever (not even an automated "we received your query")
08:39:43 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: Please email me at james.noori [at] jolla and let me know who you contacted so I can make sure they've not missed the email :)
08:41:37 <KeeperoftheKeys> OK
08:42:08 <flypig> KeeperoftheKeys, I'll try to find out about MPRIS. It would be good to have. The dbus interface can be used already.
08:42:15 <ViGe> Aldrog: It seems that the Secrets API isn't allowed in harbour yet. I think the reason is just that it hasn't been really verified that it works - I don't know if that's still the case. I can ask about it.
08:42:26 <pasik> any info about sailfish 3.2.0 schedule?
08:42:47 <KeeperoftheKeys> I'm using MPRIS in gPodder but I'll need to make a special release for harbour without it which is frustrating to say the least
08:43:24 <Aldrog> dcaliste, ViGe thanks for the info
08:43:34 <Jaymzz> pasik the info I can give you is that it's closer than you think :) we're working hard on the update as we speak and it'll be available when all the testing is done and bugs are ironed out
08:44:43 <sledges> and translations complete ;)
08:44:57 <Jaymzz> ^^ this
08:45:07 <KeeperoftheKeys> What is the chance that we will get Android 8 support on the Xperia X? Sony supported it there (I actually didn't listen to the instructions and updated my phone all the way to 8 before installing SFOS - no issues as far as I can tell)
08:45:07 <Jaymzz> anyhow, time is up for this one too
08:45:43 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: We are preparing a statement regarding that which will come out with the next Sailfish OS update blog post (most likely) so stay tuned for that
08:45:58 <Jaymzz> as we don't usually announce things on the IRC meeting :P
08:46:07 <KeeperoftheKeys> (I would be willing to even make a "donation" to Jolla to get that, the Xperia X is superior to the XA2 and the 10)
08:46:31 <pasik> Jaymzz: thanks :)
08:47:12 <Jaymzz> thanks KeeperoftheKeys :) let's wait a couple of weeks or so, so that we can get our facts straight regarding the matter and make the announcement on what we plan to do.
08:47:39 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
08:47:49 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on October 3rd 2019 at 08:00 UTC
08:47:59 <JacekJagosz> What about patches? Why community fixes and improvements aren't brought into Sailfish?
08:48:08 <Jaymzz> Any objections on this? :) we'll be back to the usual bi-weekly fashion
08:48:42 <Jaymzz> JacekJagosz: That deserves its own topic to be honest as there are many reasons... I would suggest you to create a topic around that for the next meeting
08:49:08 <KeeperoftheKeys> Wasn't there a request from people from the other side of the pond to also have a time they can attend?
08:49:13 <flypig> JacekJagosz, maybe include some examples of what you're thinking about.
08:49:27 <Jaymzz> ^^very good suggestion there
08:49:31 <KeeperoftheKeys> if you're doing bi-weekly maye do once later in the day and one like now?
08:49:50 <JacekJagosz> I wanted to, but I wasn't sure if I'd be present
08:49:53 <Venemo> Aldrog: secrets is not really ready for prime time yet
08:50:24 <Jaymzz> JacekJagosz: even if you won't be present we will still discuss your topic. just like we did today for all 3 topics
08:50:41 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: I can't seem to understand your sentence, sorry
08:50:51 <KeeperoftheKeys> Venemo: Jolla says that about a ton of stuff and says it for years, in the mean time it actually works OK+ (MPRIS for instance) and the only way to figure these things out is if it's used
08:52:25 <Venemo> KeeperoftheKeys: while I understand your perspective, I have to point out that "works ok" doesn't necessarily mean that it's considered final or that we'd be comfortable supporting it the way it currently is.
08:52:42 <Jaymzz> Alright guys time is up for this meeting. I have to end it and send out the meeting minutes. The discussion can of course be continued.
08:52:42 <KeeperoftheKeys> Jaymzz: People from the US have complained on TJC that the meeting time is not realistic for them, if the meeting is bi-weekly why not do one at 0800 UTC and one at say 1500 UTC if it has to be during your workday or maybe even at 2000 UTC if that doesn't matter
08:52:49 <Venemo> also, "works for me" doesn't always mean "works ok" :)
08:53:16 <Jaymzz> KeeperoftheKeys: I'll bring that up internally to see if that's something we can do and have the time for.
08:53:33 <Jaymzz> Anyway, thanks all for attending today's meeting. See you in 2 weeks!
08:53:37 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting