08:12:54 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 2nd of April 2020
08:12:54 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  2 08:12:54 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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08:13:03 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2020-April/009093.html
08:13:11 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:13:39 <Jaymzz> Apologies for the messed up timing today. It's one of those days where nothing works as it should. Hopefully this will go well.
08:13:56 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:14:03 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
08:14:51 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla
08:15:02 <juiceme> #info juiceme - SFOS user and random developer
08:15:13 <pasik> #info pasik - community
08:15:14 <minodesign-guest> test
08:15:29 <birdzhang> #info BirdZhang - community
08:15:34 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:16:37 <ljo> #info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community
08:18:08 <minodesign-guest> #info Minodesign, J-D blog editor
08:18:33 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: you on as well? :) your topic is coming up in a minute or so
08:19:05 <ApBBB> yep i know
08:19:09 <ApBBB> i am here
08:20:20 <Jaymzz> #topic Status update of fingerprint reader support for community devices (5 min – asked by ApBBB)
08:20:29 <Jaymzz> #info It was discussed previously and jolla was looking into a solution so community devices can use the fingerprint support in SFOS. Update us on the status of it.
08:20:58 <Jaymzz> Here comes the answer
08:21:02 <Jaymzz> #info We have been doing some research around the problem, and made some progress on removing device specifics from fingerprint backend. It's not complete yet, so can't share the results or estimate on when it would be.
08:21:52 <ApBBB> ok. i am covered with that. hopefully sooner than later i can use the fingerprint on my xz2c.
08:22:01 <Jaymzz> fingers crossed
08:22:36 <ApBBB> its a really nice device. and i'd like to have it working on its full potential.
08:23:07 <Jaymzz> definitely understandable!
08:23:21 <ApBBB> BTW if you can release it for community sony and then other devices i wont mind :P
08:23:41 <ApBBB> we can move on in case noone elsa has something to add.
08:23:45 <Jaymzz> Noted ;)
08:24:09 <Jaymzz> #topic Performance of the SFOS UI (15 min – asked by ApBBB)
08:24:20 <Jaymzz> #info I am running -and using daily- SFOS on a quite fast device and cant help think that it feels kind of unresponsive interacting with it. Some of those are design decisions like the tile then fullscreen app start (which i feel is wrong) and then there are hiccups when moving through different pages of an app or scrolling lists etc. If you activate the frame rate viewer you see a lot of red lines doing the above so it might
08:24:20 <Jaymzz> be something wrong. So the question. Is jolla aware of those issues and is there work in making the phone feel more responsive. (performance and design wise)
08:25:03 <Jaymzz> Do you have anything more to add to this ApBBB? :)
08:26:00 <ApBBB> not really. those are the stuff i see.
08:26:04 <bionade24> Jaymzz: The pdf viewer sometimes doesn't render parts, will this be fixed with next Qt version?
08:26:46 <juiceme> just my 2cents, is this slowness doe to soem special applications since I do not feel the OS to be unresponsive at a,, at least on XperiaX
08:26:50 <dcaliste> bionade24, I don't think it's linked to Qt.
08:26:52 <flypig> bionade24, do you mean certain types of data don't get rendered, or do you mean occasionally there's a bar missing from the bottom of the page, say, when scrolling?
08:26:58 <rinigus> ApBBB: maybe some specifics would help. like which apps, condiitons
08:27:05 <Jaymzz> bionade24: I'll get back to you on this one
08:27:11 <bionade24> ApBBB: The python Apps often are slower
08:27:23 <flypig> ApBBB, I'm curious to know your thoughts about the "tile then fullscreen app start". How do you think it should work to make it appear faster/smoother/nicer?
08:27:27 <bionade24> flypig: Parts of the pdf don't get rendered
08:27:58 <ApBBB> flypig that is an animation issue. i'll answer to that in a bit.
08:28:00 <dcaliste> bionade24, are always at the same place of screen ?
08:28:19 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: to give you an answer from our design department:
08:28:20 <flypig> bionade24: when scrolling around? I think those should be fixable now, could be Callibra rendering related.
08:28:22 <bionade24> dcaliste: No, but it occurs more often when you zoom in.
08:28:49 <ApBBB> one thing i see is that scrolling through lists with images ie the media player. i have  about 90 albums and it doesn't feel quite smooth.
08:28:52 <flypig> bionade24, sometimes it can take a while to render, and appears to miss parts (because they're not currently cached as bitmaps).
08:29:00 <Jaymzz> #info Design is aware if this. Performance is essential for current generation of users. Android and iOS run smoothly. Next to plain processing power, the UI design has also impact on the perceived performance, meaning it may generate the feeling of slowness or speedy interaction and progress. We are considering improving app launching transitions to improve perceived speed in future.
08:29:10 <bionade24> flypig: They never occur until you scroll
08:29:27 <ApBBB> but its not only in the apps. sometimes interaction on the main UI feels choppy.
08:29:48 <pvuorela> bionade24: there are some pdf rendering changes coming up. won't necessarily fix your problems, but there's a chance.
08:30:04 <ApBBB> flypig i believe that a transition from tap to full window instantly (even if the contents of the app arent shown) feels better.
08:30:06 <flypig> bionade24, that makes sense, because usually the parts that are cached are those on screen, or recently on screen.
08:30:12 <ApBBB> flypig try a ios device
08:30:15 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: noted, but I think it's better to do this step by step :)
08:30:45 <flypig> ApBBB, thanks, that's useful to know. I'll try and see.
08:31:11 <rinigus> ApBBB: that media player may query something from storage, like sd card, while you scroll. not sure though
08:31:24 <ApBBB> flypig go to a store and play with one (once the coronavirus shit is over obviously)
08:31:50 <ApBBB> rinigus even after everything is loaded the first time.
08:31:57 <ApBBB> i see this
08:32:24 <flypig> ApBBB, yeah. I will take a look. It might be interesting to see some SFOS prototype of it too.
08:32:37 <rinigus> ApBBB: its maybe loaded using lazy loader, so it doesn't all have to be in ram
08:33:07 <rinigus> ApBBB: statring fullscreen - and what should happen if app fails to start?
08:33:28 <ApBBB> on the subject of scrolling you can also be in the settings app and scroll up and down fast and still see red lines in the frame viewer
08:33:45 <ApBBB> rinigus a message on the window and a message to  try to restart
08:33:53 <ApBBB> even though stuff like that shouldn't happen
08:33:54 <ApBBB> :D
08:34:12 <flypig> ApBBB, but do those red lines actually look like glitches for the user?
08:34:29 <ApBBB> flypig in some cases i feel its choppy :/
08:34:34 <ApBBB> sometimes not
08:34:56 <flypig> ApBBB, and which device?
08:35:01 <ApBBB> xz2c
08:35:13 <ApBBB> quite fast
08:35:13 <flypig> Thanks.
08:35:44 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: I can also say that sometimes while scrolling when I have a lot of files I see the choppiness
08:36:12 <rinigus> so, scrolling on xz2 through emails. it feels smooth unless it was pulling emails on the same time, when it became a touch choppy, but nothing too bad.
08:37:26 <ApBBB> you can see the red lines with choppines in the media player scrolling a long album list
08:38:28 <flypig> Do a lot of your albums have covers?
08:38:34 <ApBBB> many have
08:38:53 <vknecht> maybe could use QPA_HWC_IDLE_TIME and QPA_HWC_BUFFER_COUNT ? https://github.com/mer-hybris/hadk-faq#id26
08:39:02 <ApBBB> i think it happens in pages with not just text. if there are other graphics its more likely to chop
08:40:43 <flypig> Can you record a video of it using a separate device? It's hard to understand how severe the choppiness is.
08:41:22 <ApBBB> flypig sadly i don't have anything to record it with. and it will probably need a high speed camera or something/
08:41:24 <Jaymzz> flypig: it's pretty visible, and when I compare it to Android or iOS, it just shouldn't be there.
08:41:41 <rinigus> vknecht: maybe we should try. ApBBB, try to insert on your device and see if it makes a difference
08:43:06 <ApBBB> i'll give this a try at some point
08:43:07 <Jaymzz> time is up for this one, ApBBB do you need more?
08:44:13 <ApBBB> no i think i am ok. since the design is looking into the UI feel and others experience this choppyness (ie jaymzz) i believe its something that jolla can fix at some point
08:44:45 <Jaymzz> indeed
08:44:46 <flypig> I agree it's an important area. The device should feel slick.
08:44:47 <ApBBB> unless someone else has something to add we can move on
08:45:09 <ApBBB> flypig maybe try stuff in a j1 or something
08:45:21 <ApBBB> which is slow in general.
08:45:25 <pasik> ui on my jollaC is choppy sometimes aswell, but it's much less powerful device so I guess that's expected
08:45:51 <flypig> Yes, I do see a difference between C and 10.
08:46:36 <ApBBB> in a j1 i thought it was to be expected but the xz2c can run fortnite.
08:46:53 <ApBBB> is not a slow phone. and probably faster than the official devices
08:47:21 <pasik> yeah, ui should run at full framerate all the time, and not drop frames
08:47:21 <flypig> I think there's an important difference between slower update generally, and glitches that cause the UI to halt for a noticable time.
08:47:51 <ApBBB> flypig that needs instrumentation to catch i think.
08:47:51 <rinigus> ApBBB: I would expect that its the fastest SFOS device, or one of them, right now
08:48:07 <flypig> ApBBB, yes, exactly.
08:48:31 <ApBBB> flypig thats why i said jolla should look into it.
08:49:16 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: moving on :) let's get back to this in the future again
08:49:29 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
08:49:39 <ApBBB> ok general questions time
08:49:50 <Jaymzz> bionade24: regarding yoour question about the Documents app:
08:49:50 <ApBBB> is anyone looking into systemd-homed
08:49:52 <ApBBB> ??
08:50:01 <Jaymzz> bionade24:  it's not dependent on Qt. We have been making improvements on Documents app in several releases and will still release more.
08:50:15 <ApBBB> i played a bit with it and its quite cool and has features we can use i think
08:51:48 <flypig> Which features were you thinking of?
08:51:51 <abranson> ApBBB: yes we've seen homed. very cool addition
08:52:42 <ApBBB> flypig encryption, moving homes made easy (and i believe backups)
08:52:56 <ApBBB> i played with it on desktop though
08:53:46 <pasik> any news about sailfishos 3.3.0 status?
08:53:58 <ApBBB> pasik soon™
08:54:00 <ApBBB> :P
08:54:03 <Jaymzz> :D
08:54:20 <abranson> still being tested. still some problems to fix.
08:55:08 <ApBBB> Jaymzz is the design looking into improving stuff like the email app and camera???
08:55:09 <juiceme> Has anyone looked into the poroblem with Dpurgin's Call Recorder when handling incoming calls on XperiaX? (might be on other devices too...?)
08:55:13 <ApBBB> if you have any info that is?
08:55:22 <juiceme> I think it is problem in pulseaudio
08:55:55 <pasik> ApBBB: :)
08:56:06 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: yes :)
08:56:18 <ApBBB> :)
08:56:26 <ApBBB> the email app needs love
08:57:02 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: We always look into improving different apps. It'll all happen eventually when we have the time to design, develop and test them properly. Slow and steady does it :)
08:57:34 <ApBBB> Jaymzz many stuff need love. ie the icons of the apps feel dated etc
08:57:48 <ApBBB> and many stuff mentioned in the 100 paper cuts
08:57:52 <flypig> juiceme, does it affect the built-in call recording too?
08:58:02 <Jaymzz> yeah, noted
08:58:21 <juiceme> well regarding the pulseaudio problems regarding receiving calls... that has been evident for at least an year already...
08:59:22 <juiceme> flypig: the built-in call recorder is so poor I cannot use it. quality is so bad on bot made and recaived calls and the storage is poorly handled.
08:59:59 <juiceme> that's why I use the Dpurgin one, even though it only can recors calls I make :(
09:01:48 <Jaymzz> 5 min left on this. It's now lunch time in Finland so we should end this soon :)
09:02:05 <minodesign-guest> Hallo, there is some news on compatibility with smartwatches?
09:02:25 <minodesign-guest> or enhanced compatibility with earphones?
09:03:16 <ApBBB> minodesign-guest do you have issues with bt headsets??
09:03:20 <Jaymzz> minodesign-guest: Nothing on smartwatches from Jolla's side, but the community always works on those kinds of compatibilities
09:03:24 <abranson> juiceme: that's not on the store though - only openrepos. those apps can do anything they like - and jolla can't really support them for that. in the past such apps have completely broken system upgrades.
09:03:48 <Jaymzz> minodesign-guest: What enhancement with earphones are you referring to?
09:03:52 <abranson> improving the quality of the built-in recorder might be possible though
09:03:59 <minodesign-guest> BT for earphone works solid
09:04:19 <minodesign-guest> but basic. Many apps doesn't support the tap to stop feature
09:04:56 <abranson> BT music control isn't there yet. there's a workaround involving setting up an mpris-proxy service on tjc.
09:04:59 <minodesign-guest> an also, multitasking. If I play a video on browser and lock the device, it stops.
09:05:12 <abranson> but that's not robust enough to become official
09:05:29 <minodesign-guest> also, when I switch in multitasking the video stop...
09:05:39 <flypig> abranson, is that mpris that needs love, or the proxy service?
09:06:11 <Jaymzz> time is up for this one guys. let's wrap it
09:06:14 <abranson> flypig: the proxy service is from bluez and doesn't really work well enough to be officially supported.
09:06:44 <flypig> abranson, okay. I think mpris also isn't externally supported either yet (for other apps to use).
09:06:49 <abranson> flypig: but there's a PR for mpris-qt5 to move the bluez connection centrally and support this. Jare started it and I worked on it a bit.
09:07:17 <flypig> Sounds promising.
09:07:23 <abranson> flypig: it's a candidate for harbour support though. i think this is one of the last things that needs stabilizing for it to make it through
09:07:34 <abranson> it's a bit stuck now though - needs more thought
09:07:38 <flypig> Also sounds promising :)
09:08:09 <abranson> flypig: https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/qtmpris/merge_requests/3 if you fancy a punt
09:08:24 <ApBBB> abranson is it possible for someone to compile a list of things that SFOS needs and might be able to be handled by the community???
09:09:54 <abranson> ApBBB: could be. though tjc and irc conversations often end up pointing people to source code etc. it's not hard to find.
09:10:32 <juiceme> abranson: Weel even though the Call Recorder is in openrepos the way it works is it uses pulseaudio hooks for call recording. The problem is in PA, not in the recorder itself
09:10:32 <dcaliste> ApBBB, the paper cut list is a good start. Most of the pointed stuff imply to have access to closed source parts, but some not.
09:11:53 <abranson> juiceme: but if the internal recorder works, then there must be something different in the way it's using PA?
09:12:12 <flypig> abranson, the comments on that PR don't look major in term of fixing effort.
09:12:34 <abranson> flypig: i think pekka just didn't like the approach, and he's probably right.
09:13:30 <Jaymzz> This is now way over time, let's try and wrap up guys :)
09:13:44 <flypig> abranson, ah yes, I see that lengthy conversation at the end. There's much more going on there.
09:14:08 <abranson> sorry Jaymzz! please go ahead
09:14:31 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:14:41 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on April 16th 2020 at 08:00 UTC
09:15:15 <flypig> Sorry for delaying things, but thanks Jaymzz.
09:15:35 <Jaymzz> All good. Ending the meeting in a second. Please note that we now have 08:00 UTC instead of 09:00 UTC due to daylight savings
09:15:57 <Jaymzz> Talk to you all in 2 weeks! Thanks for this time :)
09:16:02 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting