08:01:24 <abranson> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 14th May 2020
08:01:24 <sailbot_> Meeting started Thu May 14 08:01:24 2020 UTC. The chair is abranson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:01:24 <sailbot_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:01:40 <abranson> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2020-May/009195.html
08:01:42 <nobodyinperson> #help
08:01:49 <abranson> I’m chairing this meeting today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:02:03 <abranson> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:02:13 <abranson> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:02:27 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson – Sailor @ Jolla
08:02:39 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - Sailor @ Jolla
08:02:49 <ggabriel> #info Gabriel - Community
08:02:51 <nobodyinperson> #info nobodyinperson - Community
08:03:02 <Nico[m]> #info Nico - community developer
08:03:02 <birdzhang> #info BirdZhang  - Community
08:03:25 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:03:38 <JaKonator> #info jakonator - community
08:04:22 <julienb> #info Julienb, app developer
08:07:07 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla
08:07:35 <abranson> Right, we only have one question today, so off we go.
08:08:02 <abranson> #topic More useful python3 modules support (Asked by birdzhang - 10 mins)
08:08:31 <abranson> #info We have a lot of apps developed by python3 now, and many apps only on openrepos.net.
08:08:31 <abranson> #info Most of the reasons are rejected by harbour validator, or too painful to package python modules to our apps, as many useful modules are not pure python, like python3-pillow and python3-beautifulsoup4 etc..
08:08:31 <abranson> #info Please make them official support.
08:09:09 <abranson> birdzhang: I have an answer here for you:
08:10:10 <abranson> #info Allowing Python packages is a balancing act. If it's possible to do it in application's, always the better, but if some get used in many applications, take lot of disk space etc, it could be considered to be included.
08:10:10 <abranson> #info Helps a lot also if the Python modules are used somewhere by Sailfish. At the moment these are not. Pillow has python2 packaging (python-imaging) but it hasn't been updated for some time and not entirely sure is it used anywhere.
08:10:10 <abranson> #info So wouldn't like to promise much, but would be interested in what are the most commonly needed modules. FWIW beautifulsoup seems like pure python, noarch on my Fedora.
08:11:35 <birdzhang> okay, i asked because planetos made a greate app https://openrepos.net/content/planetos/imageworks
08:12:19 <nobodyinperson> python3-requests is also needed
08:12:20 <abranson> that's impressive
08:12:23 <flypig> Looks really nice.
08:12:26 <birdzhang> and it depend pillow, i packaged python3-pillow and put it on openrepos
08:13:07 <dcaliste> Maybe the version in mer should be updated to python3 via an MR.
08:13:09 <Thaodan> #info Thaodan #community  developer
08:13:13 <birdzhang> it's a little outdate and when jolla upgrade python3 version, i need repackage it
08:13:38 <Thaodan> Talking about python modules could you add pyqt?
08:13:54 <birdzhang> Thaodan: we use pyotherside
08:13:58 <dcaliste> There: https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/python-imaging
08:14:05 <nobodyinperson> birdzhang: yes, manual repackaging is hard, I package matplotlib and it has a lot of dependencies...
08:14:15 <Thaodan> birdzhang: thats no replacement for pyqt
08:14:16 <pvuorela> birdzhang: how feasible would it be to include a private pillow instance inside the app?
08:14:50 <birdzhang> nobodyinperson: yeah, and jolla upgraded from python3.6 to 3.7 and 3.8, we need repackage too
08:16:03 <birdzhang> pvuorela: not tested, pillow is not pure python, maybe reject by harbour
08:16:19 <nobodyinperson> birdzhang: not that an updates Python is bad, repackaging is just so much manual work. Of course we could automate it foe ourselves, but if the most important modules were in the official repositories it would help a lot.
08:16:38 <Thaodan> birdzhang: not as private lib, many apps do that like communi-sailfish
08:17:21 <birdzhang> Thaodan: i will take a look
08:17:28 <nobodyinperson> I have never uploaded to har our. Can one upload multiple RPMs at once? Or should one package the Python dependencies alongside the other sources? Because that would be really bad style...
08:18:13 <dcaliste> nobodyinperson, it seems to me that Harbour are one RPM only...
08:18:23 <birdzhang> nobodyinperson: only noarch or armv7hl and i486
08:18:24 <Nico[m]> Usually you upload one RPM with bundled dependencies to harbour
08:18:26 <flypig> You can't have dependencies in harbour on other things in harbour.
08:18:35 <flypig> If I recall correctly.
08:18:58 <ViGe> flypig: That is correct
08:19:12 <Thaodan> Many apps split noarch from arch components
08:19:25 <pvuorela> birdzhang: pure python part shouldn't per se matter.
08:19:25 <Thaodan> this should be supported
08:19:32 <nobodyinperson> Oh... So if two apps bundle the same Python package, they either conflict or need to put the package under their own directory and mangle with import paths!?
08:19:52 <birdzhang> nobodyinperson: imageworks is no harbour, but after install it also need download dependencies from openrepos
08:19:57 <pvuorela> i'm speaking about own directories. apps should't include global python modules.
08:20:10 <birdzhang> s/no/on/
08:20:39 <nobodyinperson> pvuorela: really?
08:21:06 <abranson> yes there are restrictions on where harbour rpms can write packages
08:21:13 <birdzhang> yeah, like requests module
08:21:28 <abranson> giving this one a bit longer
08:22:22 <abranson> so this one could be updated with a PR if someone fancies a crack at it: https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/python-imaging
08:22:24 <Thaodan> Which is kinda ok but apps usually install their modules to the python module part via the setuptools systems.
08:22:28 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Oh I didn't know that. Wow then that's messed up. Dependencies can recurse pretty deeply (e.g. matplotlib).
08:23:09 <abranson> nobodyinperson: the alternative is packages clashing on providing the same files
08:23:44 <abranson> you only need to bundle the modules that aren't already available
08:24:07 <Thaodan> abranson: or dependencies but if thats not what is wanted.
08:24:12 <nobodyinperson> abrason: Yes and for matplotlib pretty much none are :-)
08:24:22 <flypig> abranson, I guess the problem with contributing to the official version is that you still can't have it as a dependency in harbour.
08:24:49 <abranson> the only way to do that is
08:24:50 <Thaodan> Thats one rescriction that is hard when using python like not having pyqt
08:25:10 <Thaodan> *using python on SailfishOS
08:25:27 <abranson> get a newer version in the repos, then it can be allowed in the harbour?
08:27:33 <abranson> ok, I'll move onto general discussion.
08:27:50 <abranson> #topic General discussion (20 min)
08:28:45 <nobodyinperson> If it's that complicated, I guess it'll never be Harbour for me :-)
08:29:00 <Nico[m]> I think I asked it a while ago, but could a repo with the public documentations be made public, so that people can contribute to it? I had some fixes and some docs for the background process API I wanted to contribute.
08:29:47 <nobodyinperson> Nico[m]: Very nice idea!
08:29:58 <abranson> nobodyinperson: not sure it's complicated. that pillow packaging is fairly simple.
08:30:09 <abranson> https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/python-imaging/blob/master/rpm/python-imaging.spec
08:31:02 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Yes I have packaged a lot of Python packages, but hard-packaging a specific version into an app contradicts the whole repository-philosophy for me...
08:31:07 <Nico[m]> I think pillow is actually a very useful dependency, that could be used by a lot of packages, so providing that as an official module would make a lot of sense
08:31:52 <nobodyinperson> Nico[m]: And requests! THE package to implement web APIs.
08:31:53 <Thaodan> Talking about python, how is the move to python3 going?:p
08:31:59 <abranson> nobodyinperson: that's not an app, that's just a package for pillow? this is a way to avoid packaging within the app
08:32:09 <piggz> abranson: can we request from jolla mgmt that you are allowed to work on PP media/camera support? :D
08:32:42 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Sorry, Maybe I misunderstood.
08:32:43 <abranson> piggz: if you can find them, and if no-one else can help :D
08:33:09 <abranson> nobodyinperson: the trouble is that even when these modules make it into the repo, it's no guarantee that anyone will keep them up to date
08:33:55 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Yes, same on OpenRepos... In the end you keep maintaining them yourself in your own repo...
08:34:05 <abranson> I also see a 'pyver' variable in there that for some reason isn't included in the module path at the end. bet there's a lower maintenance package elsewhere
08:34:16 <Thaodan> abranson: could they go in mer-contrib and then updated by the community?
08:35:28 <Thaodan> Its a shame that python package system doesn't work like on other distros. packaging python apps is usually really easy.
08:36:01 <abranson> Thaodan: maybe, if these packages are on openrepos then that's possibly enough validation
08:36:12 <abranson> how does it usually work? i'm more of a Perl guy...
08:36:39 <nobodyinperson> abranson: You run setup.py bdist_rpm
08:36:48 <Thaodan> write setup.py call it in the packaging systems and done. It handles even the creation executables
08:37:04 <dcaliste> Contributing MRs directly on mer-core, if the package already exists there is very easy. The issue is, will that package allowed in harbour, as already said.
08:37:55 <Thaodan> abranson: %build:     python setup.py build; %install python setup.py install --skip-build -O1 --root="%{pkgdir}"
08:38:06 <abranson> and so why doesn't that work on sailfish?
08:39:19 <nobodyinperson> dcaliste: Sorry, I still don't understand. Does harbour reject RPMs containing specific Python packages, even if they're in a different directory?
08:39:24 <Thaodan> because of pythotherside which uses python from qml and not the other way around where you call python than qml/qt and because you package extra modules into your own path. This is no issue until you use modules with native code.
08:40:08 <Thaodan> nobodyinperson: I was about allowing packages in habour that are in mer-core. So for example if python-billow gets to mer-core
08:40:12 <dcaliste> nobodyinperson: no this works.
08:42:20 <rinigus> nobodyinperson: your app has to package python modules under /usr/share/appname. Make subfolder there and put packaged there. Then you have to ensure that python (via path) loads it from there.
08:42:54 <abranson> but only those modules that aren't already provided by the system
08:42:56 <nobodyinperson> rinigus: Makes sense. That's how QML apps work.
08:43:09 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Sure.
08:45:16 <nobodyinperson> Alright, different topic: Has anybody succeeded in hiding these ***** word suggestions? They take up a huge portion of the screen and I don't need them. The one patch doesn't work anymore. I tried looking thriugh the QML but it's a little abstract...
08:45:33 <abranson> Nico[m]: sorry, your question got swallowed. which documentation were you talking about? the sailfish wiki?
08:46:17 <flypig> nobodyinperson, you mean the suggestion bar above the keyboard?
08:46:32 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Exactly!
08:46:53 <nobodyinperson> flypig: And I don't like the split option :-)
08:47:02 <flypig> If you take them away, don't won't you lose cut&paste as well?
08:47:23 <nobodyinperson> This patch only showed the bar if the clipboard had something.
08:47:24 <ggabriel> nobodyinperson: you can switch split screen off from settings I think
08:47:49 <nobodyinperson> ggabriel: Sure. But there you have the huge bar again :-)
08:47:54 <flypig> You can uninstall Predictive text input, but I guess that doesn't give you the space back.
08:48:13 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Ah that's a start. Which package?
08:48:23 <Nico[m]> abranson: Mostly what's linked here: https://sailfishos.org/develop/docs/silica/
08:48:34 <Nico[m]> Afaik it is a bit integrated with the rest of the website though
08:48:54 <flypig> nobodyinperson, I'm not sure, but using the Jolla store it's under "Jolla > Precictive text input"
08:49:42 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Hm, it's not even installed?
08:50:05 <abranson> Nico[m]: Hmm yes, that would be trickier than a wiki. maybe sending a diff to the dev list would be easier!
08:50:11 <flypig> Oh. You're still getting suggestions outside of the Contacts app?
08:50:45 <Nico[m]> abranson: So the website is just plain html? Not generated from something?
08:51:26 <flypig> nobodyinperson, fwiw, it looks like the package is feature-xt9 and its dependencies.
08:52:41 <abranson> Nico[m]: that's going to be some sort of CMS, but I don't know myself. unlikely to be the sort of thing to allow public edits.
08:52:56 <ViGe> Nico[m]: The documentation is generated from the sources, but unfortunately those sources are not public :/
08:53:24 <Nico[m]> Well, it would be awesome, if they could be public, since the docs are a bit lacking at times :D
08:54:07 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Uninstalled, had no dependencies, killed maliit-server, suggestions still there.
08:55:10 <flypig> nobodyinperson, maybe do `pkcon search name xt9` and check if there are other. They all come from the xt9 repo (`ssu lr`).
08:55:35 <nobodyinperson> abrason: I humbly state that I'd ppreciate a setting to hide the word suggestions. And the whole bar stop the keyboard if the clipboard is empty :-)
08:55:53 <Thaodan> What about hiding the bar if there are no suggestions like when using apps like the browser?
08:56:15 <ggabriel> nobodyinperson: perhaps the best way to achieve that is to open a tjc (or look for one that requests that)
08:56:36 <nobodyinperson> ggabriel: Probably.
08:56:54 <nobodyinperson> Nico[m]: #aggreed
08:57:37 <abranson> Nico[m]: definitely sounds more likely on the wiki. they're much more suited to collaboration.
08:58:22 <Nico[m]> abranson: I don't think I ever used the wiki for API docs
08:58:28 <nobodyinperson> Thaodan: #aggreed
08:59:11 <abranson> Nico[m]: it's probably not as good yet, but it is improving: https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Guides
08:59:55 <abranson> nobodyinperson: here's one: https://together.jolla.com/question/13497/option-to-disable-input-suggestion/
09:00:05 <Nico[m]> Yeah, it actually looks a lot better than what I remember!
09:00:24 <abranson> it's probably a lot more up to date too
09:00:33 <Nico[m]> What account do I need to make/propose edits there? Same as git.sailfish.org?
09:01:25 <nobodyinperson> flypig: It's jolla-xt9.
09:01:52 <flypig> You no longer have suggestions?
09:01:55 <abranson> well that's the problem - i don't think you can there yet either! but it's a lot more feasible to aim towards allowing that than it is for the main website docs :)
09:01:57 <Nico[m]> Well, it doesn't have all the same APIs sadly, so it seems like you need to use both
09:01:58 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Thanks for the obvious suggestion :-)
09:02:53 <flypig> nobodyinperson, I don't think it will get you what you want, but if it's progress, then that's great :)
09:02:54 <Nico[m]> abranson: Would be awesome, if there could be a way to contribute to a single source of API docs. If it is feasible, maybe you guys can think about it a bit? :3
09:03:12 <abranson> Nico[m]: yeah it's a good idea
09:03:14 <nobodyinperson> kylxndmsi
09:03:20 <abranson> ok, I should wrap this up now as we're over an hour. last orders gentlemen please.
09:03:34 <abranson> nobodyinperson: gesundheit
09:03:41 <Nico[m]> But you are working on a forum anyway, so maybe that's something fo after that :3
09:03:52 <nobodyinperson> flypig: Yes, at least now I don't hit wrong suggestions :-)
09:04:06 <nobodyinperson> abranson: Yeah that was a fail sorry xD
09:04:11 <abranson> that's a point, it's probably very much within the scope of ViGe's forum
09:05:05 <Nico[m]> Anyway, I think we can move on for now :3
09:05:54 <abranson> ok, next meeting
09:06:05 <abranson> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:07:08 <abranson> Two weeks hence is 28th May. Is that a holiday or anything? hard to keep up with May this year
09:07:36 <flypig> I think 28th is a holiday in Finland at least, yes.
09:07:54 <abranson> which one's that?
09:08:00 <flypig> Oh, no scratch that. 21st is the holiday.
09:08:01 <flypig> https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/finland/
09:08:02 <ggabriel> isn't any day a holiday these days? :) just after end of may bank holiday in the UK
09:08:13 <flypig> Sorry abranson.
09:08:37 <abranson> flypig: no, thanks. now I see that ascension is 21st and whit is 31st
09:08:44 <abranson> so 28th is probably a good one
09:08:55 <abranson> any objections to that one?
09:09:03 <ggabriel> nay
09:09:12 <Nico[m]> Sound good
09:09:24 <flypig> Not here!
09:09:40 <abranson> ok, let's go with that then. James should hopefully be back next time! He was unavoidably detained today and sends his apologies
09:10:09 <ggabriel> thx abranson
09:10:13 <Nico[m]> Oh no, what did he do to get detained? ;p
09:10:39 <flypig> thx abranson +1
09:10:40 <ggabriel> Nico[m]: these days walking down the street without a "reason" is enough :P
09:10:45 <abranson> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 28th May at 0800 UTC hundred hours
09:10:58 <abranson> ggabriel: i'm sure it was nothing untoward
09:11:06 <Nico[m]> Fair
09:11:27 <ggabriel> mine was a joke, sorry
09:11:42 <abranson> Hope you enjoyed this community meeting today. Please tap the appropriate emoticon below:
09:11:42 <abranson> :D  :)  :|  :(  >:(
09:11:48 <abranson> #endmeeting