08:00:10 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020
08:00:10 <sailbot_> Meeting started Thu Jun 11 08:00:10 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:10 <sailbot_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:26 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2020-June/009208.html
08:00:35 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:00:45 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:00:59 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
08:01:09 <piggz> #info piggz/Adam pigg - community porter
08:01:17 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla
08:01:18 <ggabriel> #info Gabriel - community
08:01:29 <peperjay> #info peperjay - community
08:01:35 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste - community
08:01:45 <birdzhang> #info BirdZhang  - community
08:01:52 <attah_work> #info Anton Thomasson - developer of shitty apps... just watching with half an eye
08:02:06 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones- sailor @ Jolla (partially present).
08:02:27 <pasik> #info pasik - community
08:03:21 <nobodyinperson> #info nobodyinperson: community
08:04:48 <Jaymzz> Welcome everyone :) we'll be moving to the 1st topic of the day in a minute
08:06:19 <Jaymzz> #topic sailfishos Qt5 upgrade (15 min – by pasik)
08:06:34 <Jaymzz> #info community is curious about the current plans and timeframe for sfos Qt5 upgrade, especially with the rest of the sfos toolstack recently upgraded. Newer Qt5 version would obviously help developing native apps and porting existing Qt5 apps more easily to sfos. In earlier meetings it was mentioned Qt licensing isn't a problem anymore for sfos community devices, so that's hopefully sorted out now? Is it likely sfos moves d
08:06:35 <Jaymzz> irectly to a newer Qt version (such as Qt 5.12 LTS) rather than the old plan of Qt 5.9, which is now quite old already? Any news?
08:06:43 <Jaymzz> And here comes the answer:
08:06:55 <Jaymzz> #info As you have noted we did preparation work for Qt 5.9 earlier. The current plan is still to proceed step by step, but we are not announcing any schedule for the update.
08:06:56 <piggz> *drum roll*
08:07:00 <Jaymzz> XD
08:07:27 <pasik> :)
08:07:34 <piggz> ok, moving on :D
08:08:00 <Jaymzz> pasik: do you have anything to add? Or shall we move on? the stage is still yours :)
08:08:09 <ApBBB> the issue is that this QT delay also delays a lot of cool stuff the comunity is dong :/
08:08:18 <rinigus> just to be clear. while no schedule is replied, you plan to move as 5.9->5.12?
08:08:58 <nobodyinperson> I think nemomobile just recently went to Qt 5.12, what exactly prevents SailfishOS from migrating? That Silica is closed-source so the community can't help?
08:09:17 <pasik> Jaymzz: I guess not much to add to that.. except all the discussion that comes up :)
08:09:20 <abranson> rinigus: I think when updating things that are very far behind, it's better to jump at most between LTS versions. otherwise it can turn into a mess.
08:09:38 <abranson> nobodyinperson: it's a licensing thing. mentioned many times before
08:09:59 <nobodyinperson> abranson: sorry
08:10:10 <rinigus> abranson: maybe. but as nemo is working on 5.12 update already, it could be reasonable to see how well that works
08:10:46 <abranson> yeah that's true, though as nemo and sailfish vary in mostly qt related parts, it's not a shoo-in
08:13:15 <rinigus> so, but from Jaymzz replly, we should conclude that the path is planned as 5.6->5.9->5.12
08:13:39 <rinigus> at least that some kind of specific plan. or do I read it wrong?
08:14:27 <birdzhang> lol, Jaymzz is offline
08:14:33 <dcaliste> abranson, just wondering, I thought it was replied at one moment that licensing issues where sorted out, in a way. Are there new issues in that respect ? Or is it for newer versions of Qt only ?
08:14:50 <abranson> rinigus: not sure if there's much use in that info. intermediate versions may not be released.
08:15:18 <rinigus> abranson: ok, good to know
08:15:19 <piggz> is it possible to state clearly which modules have problematic licenses?
08:15:38 <abranson> dcaliste: i think at one point we thought we could proceed with the update and sort the licensing out separately. but couldn't.
08:16:02 <abranson> piggz: the whole thing. 5.9 is either GPLv3 or commercial
08:16:16 <abranson> some 5.6 modules were the same. they weren't upgraded to 5.6.
08:18:03 <Jaymzz> damn
08:18:09 <Jaymzz> lost my internet for a sec
08:18:25 <Jaymzz> can you guys see my messages here?
08:18:31 <dcaliste> Ok, thank you abranson, so it may still take a while if it relies on sorting out licensing issues :/
08:18:32 <abranson> for someone in sweden, your internet is terrible
08:18:33 <ggabriel> Jaymzz: we read you
08:18:33 <flypig> We see them, yes.
08:18:38 <Jaymzz> ok thanks
08:18:43 <abranson> i though the swedes had the best internets
08:19:06 <ApBBB> koreans i think have the best internets
08:19:08 <Jaymzz> abranson: I guess my connection has gotten some Covid just like the rest of Sweden :/
08:19:08 <ApBBB> :P
08:19:26 <ApBBB> Jaymzz put some bleach on it :P
08:19:28 <ggabriel> Jaymzz: if I may summarise, I think there is a wish to know what the plan is wrt versions (i.e., which qt version will be released next)
08:19:29 <abranson> dcaliste: but when that is sorted, then the amount of time needed to actually do the upgrade will be relatively instantaneous :)
08:19:39 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: will try!! XD
08:19:57 <ApBBB> Jaymzz the murican way
08:20:07 <Jaymzz> #info community would like to know which version of Qt we plan to upgrade to.
08:20:25 <Jaymzz> ApBBB: Freedom
08:20:34 <Jaymzz> Anyway
08:20:35 <dcaliste> abranson, sure, waiting for it :D
08:20:43 <ApBBB> abranson are people working on resolving the lisencing stuff??
08:20:48 <ApBBB> activelly
08:21:21 <abranson> yeah of course
08:21:22 <ggabriel> I'm not sure Jolla has the commercial capability to convince developers to change their licence
08:22:30 <rinigus> tbh, I cannot figure out how does that work look like. "I am coming in into the office at 9:00 and now think how to resolve it. OK, its 17:00, time to go - no solution" ?
08:22:31 <Jaymzz> We are over time
08:22:36 <Jaymzz> Need to move on soon.
08:23:41 <Jaymzz> if pasik doesn't have anything more to add, we can move the rest of teh dicsussion to the end of the meeting and move on to the next topic
08:23:42 <piggz> Jaymzz: its probbaly easier to just get the update done, and stop us from asking every other meeting
08:24:20 <Jaymzz> piggz: if only it was that easy :)
08:24:27 <abranson> piggz: as previously mentioned, we tried that :)
08:24:42 <Jaymzz> moving it
08:24:44 <Jaymzz> #topic sailfishos wayland compositor and xdg-shell protocol upgrade (15 min – by pasik)
08:24:49 <dcaliste> I'm afraid it's more like: "Boss, could we allow GPLv3 ? no", "Ok, then could we afford the commercial one ? neither". Ok, I'll retry next week.
08:24:53 <Jaymzz> #info current plans and timeframe for sfos QtWayland and lipstick compositor upgrade to support wayland xdg-shell protocol, which is commonly used these days, and required by for example many flatpak apps which use Gtk/Gdk.
08:25:13 <Jaymzz> #info We are considering this along with lipstick architecture work that we are planning, xdg-shell may be supported in that work. We are not giving any estimate on when this may happen.
08:25:22 <Jaymzz> ^Answer
08:26:10 <ApBBB> isnt this blocked by the QT update??
08:26:39 <abranson> curiously, no :D
08:27:17 <dcaliste> Very good news, then !
08:27:36 <dcaliste> I thought it relied on upgrading QtWayland though ?
08:28:47 <ApBBB> yeah qt started supporting the latest xdg after 5.10 or something
08:30:09 <rinigus> abranson: if you would add xdg-shell support without qtwayland update, would you be doing some work which could be avoided with qt update?
08:30:54 <abranson> it's a bit complicated
08:31:07 <ApBBB> and since lipstick was mentioned PLEASE make it support multiple screens. it will be needed in the future i am sure
08:33:10 <abranson> rinigus: don't really want to get into the qt update again, but the amount of effort required to do it isn't a factor at all in why it's not been done. so saving time and effort elsewhere doesn't help.
08:33:20 <pasik> rinigus: that is my understanding aswell.. basicly qt5 should be upgraded first, to be get the newer QtWayland
08:34:03 <ggabriel> abranson: +1 I think we should let Jolla prioritise internal dependencies
08:34:58 <rinigus> abranson: no plan to get into qt update discussion; just don't want to have something done with great effort that will be out of the window soon
08:35:27 <abranson> rinigus: you mean on flatpak?
08:35:46 <rinigus> xdg-shell
08:35:53 <rinigus> on top of qt 5.6
08:36:52 <abranson> your effort is a different matter :)
08:37:53 <Jaymzz> dammit I lost connection again
08:37:57 <Jaymzz> What is happening today
08:38:25 <ggabriel> Jaymzz: you aren't supposed to talk on the phone while using a dialup connection ;) </jk>
08:38:42 <Jaymzz> ggabriel: hahaha
08:38:49 <piggz> ggabriel: he hasnt got his dsl filters plugged in
08:39:00 <abranson> rinigus: like the answer said, xdg-shell may during this lipstick work, but maybe not as part of qtwayland, if that helps. can't make any promises though - nothing is certain yet.
08:39:07 <ggabriel> piggz: I did say dialup, maybe you're too young ;)
08:40:01 <rinigus> abranson: thanks
08:40:27 <dcaliste> abranson, thank you for the insights. Do you think community members could help in certain directions ?
08:41:02 <dcaliste> I mean, try to backport patches from master QtWayland introducing xdg-shell support
08:41:09 <dcaliste> or other tasks ?
08:41:19 <abranson> dcaliste: that would still violate the license i think
08:41:27 <dcaliste> Ah, sure, indeed...
08:41:43 <abranson> i don't think so yet - it's too early. but I'll let people know that you're keen so they can bear that in mind
08:42:19 <dcaliste> abranson, sure, thanks.
08:42:45 <pasik> well, sounds good if xdg-shell might be possible even without qt upgrade..
08:42:46 <abranson> #info community wants to help with xdg-shell if they can
08:42:50 <piggz> ggabriel: im not too young ;)
08:43:05 <abranson> ggabriel: think you made piggz day :)
08:43:31 <ggabriel> we all need a smile, sorry for the off topic
08:43:32 <dcaliste> Now that libc, gcc, almost all the stack is actively updated, it's too bad that this part is still lagging behind. But I understand the issues and know that the work is huge and mainly behind the scene.
08:44:45 <abranson> we can be happy about the updates than have been done though :)
08:44:53 <pasik> abranson: definitely!
08:45:00 <pasik> thanks a lot
08:45:09 <abranson> there's something else exciting going on in the repos for those who watch them ;)
08:45:20 <pasik> esr52 update at least
08:45:23 <pasik> :)
08:45:31 <Jaymzz> Time is up for this one guys :)
08:45:49 <abranson> pasik: wasn't talking about that...
08:47:11 <Jaymzz> moving on to the next one
08:47:23 <pasik> abranson: I guess I'll have to take a look..
08:47:29 <Jaymzz> #topic Inclusion of avahi on the official sailfish repos (5 min – by ApBBB)
08:47:38 <Jaymzz> #info Its quite a useful utility (far easier sshing into something with host name than IP) So its basically a request. Also if there is something prohibiting its inclusion and what can be done to have it in.
08:47:49 <Jaymzz> #info While avahi might be nice, it raises potential security issues, which needs to be considered. It should be anyway allowed in wifi only and then potentially filtered in local network. While doing this in local network you can assign static ip's either on device end or from your dhcp server and when you can easily also get name based access by adding the ip to either hosts file or in the .ssh/config for example. Thus curr
08:47:49 <Jaymzz> ently there is no plans to include avahi as such.
08:47:54 <Jaymzz> ^answer
08:48:15 <ApBBB> mehhhh
08:48:17 <ApBBB> :P
08:48:59 <Jaymzz> unhappy much? :D
08:48:59 <ggabriel> what is the issue with ssh right now?
08:49:13 <ggabriel> I can ssh into any of my jolla devices by hostname since version 1
08:49:48 <flypig> Is your router acting as a DNS server though? I guess not all will.
08:50:27 <ggabriel> so, what problem are we trying to solve with avahi?
08:50:46 <ggabriel> you definitely don't want to advertise services to world+dog lightly, especially on a mobile phone
08:51:00 <ApBBB> Jaymzz a bit bummed since its nice to have for all king of stuff. ie on my pc i can redirect sound with pulse and all that with just afew clicks
08:51:17 <ApBBB> it discovers outputs automatically
08:51:50 <ApBBB> anyway
08:51:51 <flypig> ApBBB, there is a community version, could you use that?
08:52:02 <attah_work> Isn't it possible to have it not advertise by default and only there for reading things?
08:52:28 <ApBBB> flypig i know i can use it from the community
08:52:42 <ApBBB> its just that i prefer things done for everybody
08:52:46 <attah_work> then people wanting to advertise can reconfigure... and e.g. SeaPrint can use the discovery part
08:53:18 <flypig> ApBBB, okay, just checking. I see where you're coming from.
08:53:19 <ggabriel> perhpas this question should be split into discovery and advertising modes :) I agree discovery is an interesting feature
08:54:25 <attah_work> i rolled my own discovery... and i can open that code up to anyone, but still, the actual lib is often the better solution, at least if it can be made to behave
08:55:05 <ggabriel> yes, there are other applications that discover things on the LAN (any kodi remote to name a few)
08:55:09 <ApBBB> attah_work i was about to ask how you were handling discovery on the print app
08:55:12 <ApBBB> :)
08:55:24 <Jaymzz> ApBBB:  I get your point here
08:56:05 <ApBBB> as you can see it can be used in all sort of things (ie printing attah mentioned)
08:56:13 <ApBBB> but a no is a no :/
08:56:13 <Jaymzz> yes
08:56:19 <ApBBB> hence the mehhhhh :P
08:56:35 <ggabriel> ApBBB: I think the original answer is concerned about advertising mode, you are talking about discovery mode
08:56:39 <attah_work> Jaymzz: so no even if advertising is off?
08:56:53 <ApBBB> hopefully a dev can bring it up in an internal meeting or whatever
08:56:55 <ggabriel> maybe we should re-ask the question
08:57:03 <Jaymzz> let's move on to general discussion and talk more there as time is up for this one
08:57:12 <ApBBB> ok move on
08:57:24 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
08:58:02 <Jaymzz> attah_work: I unfortunately don't have an answer on that
08:58:09 <abranson> ApBBB: maybe a good step would be to package it up. publish it on openrepos and propose it for contrib to the sfos repos?
08:58:19 <Jaymzz> but based on the official answer I put up there, I think it would still be a no
08:58:24 <ggabriel> ok, I suggest we follow up on the avahi question - clarify it's only for discovery
08:58:32 <ApBBB> it is already in openrepos
08:58:34 <ggabriel> and remove that ssh example, that probably scared whoever answered it
08:58:45 <ggabriel> Jaymzz: why?
08:58:54 <abranson> ApBBB: a recent version? with advertising off?
08:59:57 <ApBBB> abranson not sure about that. it will also need some page in the settings app for setting it up and stuff if someone wants to make it production ready
09:00:52 <ApBBB> and yeah just checked the version in openrepos is old
09:01:16 <abranson> i'm not sure there's be much chance of a sfos UI for it unless there was a clear application for it in the OS
09:01:57 <abranson> but that could always be a community app
09:02:27 <ApBBB> abranson have i ever told you how much i have having seperate apps for stuff that should be in the settings :P
09:02:32 <abranson> saw a bunch of similar stuff recently on the media side. things like grilo that could do a lot more with a decent config app on top
09:02:46 <abranson> hehe
09:04:00 <ggabriel> abranson: thinking aloud, it would be a good idea to redirect loudspeaker sound to sinks available on wan (there's an app for that, but it's a bit inelegant)
09:04:15 <ggabriel> s/wan/lan/
09:04:27 <ApBBB> ggabriel thats why we need it in the os itself
09:04:38 <ggabriel> ApBBB: I guess I'm trying to make that point
09:04:43 <ApBBB> ie you should be able to do this from the media plauer
09:04:59 <ggabriel> correct - but the original question wasn't asked properly IMO
09:06:45 <abranson> nothing wrong with developing the question in one meeting for the next
09:07:06 <abranson> there's a ton of stuff we could do with media tbh. lots of potential in things like dlna
09:07:14 <abranson> in the community too
09:07:40 <ggabriel> yes, it would be good to catch up to the competition on that regard
09:08:25 <ApBBB> ggabriel in theory you can do a lot of stuff on SFOS as in any linux distro
09:08:38 <ApBBB> the problem is that you have to do it in an easy way
09:08:42 <ApBBB> a gui etc
09:09:29 <ApBBB> modifying files by ssh ing on the phone isn't what i would describe as user friendly
09:09:39 <ggabriel> ApBBB: agree; at least redirecting sound isn't as simple to do from the CLI as in a desktop linux
09:09:58 <abranson> the sound routing is very complicated.
09:10:11 <ggabriel> abranson: +1
09:10:26 <abranson> because it has to prioritize and mute rather than just mix
09:11:53 <Jaymzz> 4 mins on this
09:12:55 <Jaymzz> Actually we may move on, I don't see much happening :)
09:13:05 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:13:14 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on June 25th 2020 at 08:00 UTC
09:13:43 <Jaymzz> So, that's that for today! Thanks all for attending. Gotta go do some tasks before lunch :) see you in 2 weeks!
09:13:46 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting