08:00:52 <Jaymzz> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020
08:00:52 <sailbot_> Meeting started Thu Jun 25 08:00:52 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:52 <sailbot_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:01:01 <Jaymzz> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2020-June/009213.html
08:01:07 <Jaymzz> I am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.
08:01:16 <Jaymzz> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info
08:01:23 <Jaymzz> #info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla
08:01:30 <ggabriel> #info Gabriel - community
08:01:39 <piggz> #info Adam Pigg - Community porter/dev
08:01:40 <louisdk> #info Louis - community
08:01:40 <lbt> #info David Greaves - sailor and Mer guy
08:01:43 <remote__> #info remote - community
08:01:55 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson - sailor
08:01:58 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor@Jolla
08:02:04 <Sefriol> #info Joakim - Community / dev
08:02:10 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor@jolla
08:02:15 <Mister_Magister> #info Mister_Magister - community
08:03:04 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:06:08 <Jaymzz> #topic Decouple LUKS password from PIN code (by remote – 5 min)
08:06:19 <Jaymzz> by remote__ *
08:06:30 <Jaymzz> #info currently LUKS password is the same as PIN code for unlock (numeric). It is very easy to crack it offline. We need an option to have a separate full-keyboard option for LUKS encryption password.
08:06:48 <Jaymzz> #info Alphanumeric keyboard for device lock is in our plans, but we don't have clear schedule to share as of yet.
08:06:54 <Jaymzz> Answer ^^
08:07:13 <remote__> ok
08:07:19 <Jaymzz> move on? :)
08:07:23 <remote__> right
08:07:32 <flypig> I'm curious to know about the threat model here.
08:07:46 <remote__> offline cracking when somebody has your phone for a couple of minutes
08:07:55 <Mister_Magister> if package is opensource changing numbers to letters shouldn't be too hard?
08:07:55 <flypig> Someone would have to remove the memory though, right?
08:07:58 <Jaymzz> you have 4 minutes to discuss it :)
08:07:58 <remote__> boot into recovery, dump 2mb of luks headers
08:08:04 <remote__> crack it in minutes
08:08:10 <flypig> Ah, okay, it's the recovery that's the vector.
08:08:13 <remote__> on gpu[s]
08:08:49 <remote__> Also, main question is to decouple passwords
08:08:57 <ggabriel> well, allowing alphanumeric isn't the same as decoupling
08:09:05 <remote__> even with alpha-num keyboard nobody would want to enter it every time the phone is locked
08:09:06 <ggabriel> but equally, you can have a complex password and unlock with fingerprint
08:09:24 <ggabriel> so it depends on how precious is your data I guess
08:09:26 <remote__> so it should be decoupled
08:09:26 <Mister_Magister> if you have fnigerprint
08:09:34 <flypig> How would decoupling help?
08:09:43 <piggz> ^^even on ported devices these days :D
08:09:46 <flypig> If the numeric unlocks the password, without an enclave.
08:09:48 <ggabriel> Mister_Magister: it is pretty common these days - I don't use it, but then my cat pictures aren't so important
08:10:03 <remote__> enter very strong pw on boot, easier PIN - on every unlock
08:10:20 <ggabriel> I agree that remote__ was referring to that ^^
08:10:41 <Thaodan> #info Thaodan Community
08:10:47 <ggabriel> it's probably not a bad idea to have a "master" password and a "lock" (easier) password
08:10:48 <Jaymzz> 1 minute on this then we have to move on as the schedule is tight today
08:11:18 <flypig> Okay, it all fits into place from my point of view now, I understand better the request :) Thanks.
08:12:01 <Jaymzz> Moving on :)
08:12:08 <Sefriol> Maybe add a clarification to the topic? i.e. strong pw on bootup Jaymzz
08:12:35 <Sefriol> or something
08:13:32 <Jaymzz> Sefriol: Need to move it as the schedule is tight. Adding more sentences will create more discussion at this moment. Will see what I can do a bit later in the meeting
08:13:34 <Jaymzz> #topic Implement a hook for wrong PIN code (panic PIN) (5 min by remote)
08:13:43 <Jaymzz> #info create a hook for a wrong PIN code, so it checks e.g. /etc/panic-pin for the wrong PIN and if it matches, execs the script in that file, that could for example zero out 4096 sectors (luks header) of /dev/mapper/sailfish-home. For advanced users.
08:13:56 <Jaymzz> #info This isn't something we have immediate plans for, but the component handling the actual unlocking is systemd-cryptsetup, which is open source. Our systemd packaging is here: https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/systemd/. We think it would be possible for an interested community dev to create something that does this.
08:14:03 <Jaymzz> #link https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/systemd/
08:14:09 <Jaymzz> Answer ^^
08:14:57 <Mister_Magister> possibly systemd has some hooks
08:15:04 <remote__> thanks. I'll take a look into that
08:15:28 <flypig> Personally, this would be a neat feature to hvae.
08:16:27 <Mister_Magister> think we can move on
08:16:37 <remote__> yep
08:17:13 <Mister_Magister> james lagged out :D
08:17:33 <ggabriel> again? :D
08:17:50 <Sefriol> Damn these third world countries that do not have proper internet
08:18:14 <Thaodan> Did you talk about Germany? xD
08:18:16 <Jaymzz1> Do you read me?
08:18:20 <Mister_Magister> aye we do
08:18:34 <Jaymzz1> My internet has covid. It dies all the time :(
08:18:52 <ggabriel> we have to assign some time for Jaymzz1 to reconnect ;)
08:19:14 <Jaymzz1> ggabriel: yep :(
08:19:22 <Jaymzz1> Not sure if the bot will read me now
08:19:29 <Jaymzz1> anyway where are we in the discussion?
08:19:35 <Mister_Magister> next topic
08:19:44 <Jaymzz1> ok let's see if the bot reads me
08:19:52 <Jaymzz1> #topic I/O Errors on working XA2 (by LouisDK – 5 min)
08:19:55 <Jaymzz1> nope
08:19:56 <Jaymzz1> damn
08:19:57 <Sefriol> Since Jaymmz internet has covid, it must be 5G
08:20:00 <ggabriel> Jaymzz1: change your nick?
08:20:11 <Jaymzz1> ggabriel: sec
08:21:36 <Jaymzz> now
08:21:38 <Jaymzz> YES
08:21:40 <Mister_Magister> nice
08:21:47 <Jaymzz> #topic I/O Errors on working XA2 (by LouisDK – 5 min)
08:21:58 <Jaymzz> #info I recently did a file system check on my XA2 with Sailfish and got I/O errors. Fearing that my hardware was broken I reached out to Jolla Care which confirmed the same result on their XA2 running Is this expected behavior due to the encrypted filesystem? TJC ticket:
08:22:04 <Jaymzz> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/227495/xa2-bug-io-error-doing-file-system-check-on-working-device/
08:22:41 <Jaymzz> I haven't been able to secure an answer for this one yet. So if available sailors have anything to say on this, please go ahead. '
08:23:11 <Jaymzz> If we don't get to a conclusion, I'd bring this up again during the next meeting louisdk
08:23:30 <louisdk> Jaymzz: Cool
08:25:13 <flypig> Nothing to contribute from me I'm afraid.
08:25:55 <Jaymzz1> damn :(
08:26:16 <Mister_Magister> ohnu
08:26:21 <piggz> maybe of interest? https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/howto-centos-rhel-fedora-debian-fsck-ext3-on-luks-volume/
08:27:26 <louisdk> piggz: Thanks will read the link later. Let's move on :)
08:27:51 <Thaodan> Shouldn't the recovery unlock the partion before?
08:29:16 <Jaymzz> I'm back. Will change my ISP soon. This is unbearable.
08:29:36 <Jaymzz> Anyway, sorry about that, where are we?
08:29:36 <louisdk> Thaodan: good question.
08:29:47 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: next question i believe
08:29:58 <Jaymzz> louisdk: should I move on?
08:29:58 <piggz> the other thing, if the errors were on rpmb partition, that is an early boot parition, not a user partition
08:30:42 <louisdk> Jaymzz: Sure.
08:30:47 <Jaymzz> alright
08:30:58 <Jaymzz> #topic Official Fxtec Pro 1 port (by LouisDK – 5 min)
08:31:08 <Jaymzz> #info There's a pretty stable port of SailfishOS for the Fxtec Pro 1. Due to the hardware adaption the alien dalvik from the XA2 should run on this device. Are there any current plans for making an official port for this device?
08:31:21 <Mister_Magister> Hey i actually added same topic but about asus 5z just to mock this one :D
08:31:28 <Jaymzz> #info We are very interested in all projects using Sailfish OS. We are also very eager to support these projects if there is an opportunity to do so. Nevertheless, we do not have an official plan to provide the port for FxTec Pro at this point.
08:31:30 <piggz> (staying ouf of this one :D )
08:32:07 <Mister_Magister> piggz: we're pretty biased  :D
08:32:23 <louisdk> Jaymzz: alright.
08:32:26 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: feel free to remove my topic aswell cause answer gonna be same :D
08:32:46 <Mister_Magister> jolla won't pick up random community ports :P
08:32:52 <piggz> Jaymzz: as a different tactic, would there be a possibility of users purchasing an AD license....maybe without support at a reduced cost?
08:32:56 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: your topic isn't gonna be here because you were too late with it ;)
08:33:02 <piggz> thats basically what people are asking for
08:33:06 <remote__> I suppose Jolla doesn't want to officially support community ports because of the burden to continue that support. Makes sense.
08:33:10 <Jaymzz> piggz: for Fxtec?
08:33:12 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: i'm aware just saying don't leave it for next meeting
08:33:21 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: ok
08:33:23 <piggz> Jaymzz: yes, or generally, if the porter is able to make it work
08:33:38 <rinigus> stepping in here as a porter... I'd like to acknowledge the work of Jolla's personnel in helping with the ports. thanks for it!
08:33:45 <Thaodan> maybe their could some kind of sfos license without any support from jolla for a cheap price
08:33:47 <Mister_Magister> we've talked about it and last time Jaymzz said it's not possible due licenses etc
08:34:00 <Mister_Magister> but ye many ports would benefit (including mine)
08:34:01 <Thaodan> Just for the label basicly
08:34:49 <Jaymzz> piggz: I believe that we are looking into that still. What I know, since it varies from device to device, it makes it difficult and time consuming to maintain over time. But let's see what the future brings on that front. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.
08:34:53 <rinigus> its better if people would actually write apps instead of trying to get android back on the phone. the same one they removed before
08:35:16 <rinigus> in this respect, ported devices are fine already
08:35:18 <piggz> rinigus: true
08:35:22 <Jaymzz> rinigus: Sometimes that is not a possibility. for example banking apps in different countries etc.
08:35:28 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: basically if jolla just sold xa2 ad porters would adapt it to ports so porters would have to support it not jolla
08:35:52 <rinigus> its actually cheaper (in terms of developer time as well), to get a simple android device for banking apps
08:35:56 <rinigus> Jaymzz: ^
08:36:03 <piggz> rinigus: maybe a cut down version of AD that only runs whatsapp would suit most people :D
08:36:04 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: That is way more complicated than what you seem to think it is :D
08:36:17 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: licenses etc?
08:36:28 <Mister_Magister> it's not like it's first time that topic is here
08:36:37 <abranson> not just that. support is complex too.
08:36:40 <Jaymzz> rinigus: Valid argument, but many people don't want to have an extra device with them. It adds to it being inconvenient
08:36:41 <remote__> old skool user here: why do people love bank apps on the phone... don't they have a site for it?
08:37:01 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: not just licenses. liability among other things
08:37:20 <Mister_Magister> remote__: some banks now proceed to remove websites cause keeping both website and mobile app is just too expensive so not like you have a choice
08:37:30 <rinigus> remote__: its not even an app, but login into the bank
08:37:45 <remote__> that's a very bad tendency. you should talk to the bank
08:37:45 <louisdk> Jaymzz: I think we're getting oft here. Should we move on?
08:37:50 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: yeah yeah i don't think answer will change in next 5 years so we should search still for opensource solution
08:38:01 <Jaymzz> remote__: As an example, in Sweden, digital identification is becoming ever so popular and for that you need either iOS or Android if you wanna have it on the phone. It makes your life way easier and that's what people want.
08:38:07 <Mister_Magister> remote__: not my bank  but that's the future
08:38:20 <remote__> not the future I want to live in... let's move on
08:38:26 <Jaymzz> louisdk: True, yes.
08:38:38 <Jaymzz> #topic Jolla and public communication (by LouisDK – 20 min)
08:38:47 <Jaymzz> #info Lately Jolla have been quite sparse regarding their public communication. This might make some people nervous about the future of the OS and might keep someone from being interested in and developing apps for the platform. Would Jolla consider keeping the community more updated (eg. by making more blog posts about OS development and insights)?
08:38:57 <Jaymzz> #info We love this suggestion, and we'd love to write more blog posts, but usually if there are no posts it's because we're hard at work creating new designs, code, functionality and business. But the request is noted and we'll get as much out there as we can.
08:39:33 * Mister_Magister tries not to scream at jolla designers
08:40:31 <louisdk> Jaymzz: alright. I wanted to point out not to forget the community nor social media so the platform still feels active and alive for outsiders and fans :)
08:40:44 <dcaliste> About community contributions in that respect, already following git.sailfishos.org and writing a weekly digest of the commits would give an idea of what is happening.
08:41:17 <dcaliste> I planned to do this once, but give up due to the work required by writing the diggest every week.
08:41:31 <flypig> Interesting idea, but yes, not effort-free.
08:41:39 <Jaymzz> louisdk: Noted :) Community won't be forgotten, absolutely not!
08:42:24 <louisdk> Jaymzz: Cool. I got my answer. Anyone have something else to add about this topic?
08:42:30 <Mister_Magister> Community is the powerhouse of the jolla
08:42:31 * ggabriel thought that jolla was affected by covid like everybody else, hence the silence
08:43:02 <flypig> louisdk, nice question. It's a very good point to make.
08:43:03 <Mister_Magister> ggabriel: jolla is mostly remote guys if i'm not wrong
08:43:12 <Jaymzz> ggabriel: we are a bit less affected in that front. Workflow still goes on
08:43:39 * ggabriel is not going to indirectly suggest scapegoats any more ;)
08:43:54 <Jaymzz> alright moving it
08:44:04 <Jaymzz> #topic general discussion (15 min)
08:44:29 <Sefriol> Speaking of communication: Dev Forum?
08:44:30 <Mister_Magister> piggz: u wanted to move some topic
08:44:37 <Jaymzz> Sefriol: Almost there
08:44:42 <piggz> Jaymzz: a questions from a user....
08:44:59 <piggz> Are there any plans for system wide RTL support?
08:45:33 <remote__> I'd like to get back to my question about panic-pin.
08:46:08 <Jaymzz> piggz: Unfortunately I don't have an answer to that. If any other sailor knows anything on this please chime in
08:46:57 <abranson> Mister_Magister: there are a lot of sailors working remotely, but still a minority. of course during the lockdowns that became everyone, but it was probably easier than most places because Jolla were already very online-focused.
08:47:20 <Mister_Magister> abranson: hecc how big is jolla anyways,wasn't it 20-something people?
08:47:24 <flypig> piggz, sorry, I'm sure it should be obvious, but what do you mean by RTL? Right-to-left text? Real-time-something? Ride the Lobster (a unicycle race, apparently)?
08:47:54 <piggz> flypig: i guess right to left text
08:47:54 <Mister_Magister> Ride the lobster ofc
08:48:04 <abranson> Mister_Magister: more than that. less than fifteen thousand though.
08:48:23 <Mister_Magister> abranson: xd
08:48:42 <Mister_Magister> abranson: when will jolla start earning moni
08:49:09 <Sefriol> If you hired everybody laid off by Nokia, you could get into those numbers
08:49:12 <abranson> rtl = radio luxembourg
08:49:37 <Mister_Magister> when i googled rtl i found tv
08:49:43 <piggz> abranson: thats up there with atlantic 252
08:50:09 <abranson> long wave!
08:50:18 <flypig> System-wide radio Luxembourg would be a great feature.
08:50:48 <flypig> Sadly I don't know the answer to the text direction question.
08:50:52 <abranson> i'm embarrassed we don't already have it after so long
08:51:08 <piggz> abranson: yes, seems like it should be in by default
08:51:15 <ggabriel> I guess it depends on the customer base needing it, same with japanese input
08:51:15 <abranson> i bet the rtl is a qt thing?
08:51:30 <Mister_Magister> it's sad that sfos doesn't have japanese input by default
08:51:49 <ggabriel> Mister_Magister: making the keyboard is not an easy thing I guess
08:51:54 <abranson> hebrew is rtl i think. arabic also?
08:51:59 <Mister_Magister> ggabriel: heckyeah it is
08:52:14 <Mister_Magister> community did it, jolla can aswell
08:52:37 <Sefriol> something something resources
08:52:39 <piggz> abranson: you should be embarassed, it was supported in symbian qml components!
08:52:50 <Mister_Magister> Sefriol: something something sure
08:53:08 <abranson> piggz: radio luxembourg?
08:53:12 <piggz> https://doc.qt.io/archives/qtquick-components-symbian-1.1/qt-components-right-to-left.html
08:53:34 <flypig> It opens up lots of tricky design questions.
08:53:58 <ggabriel> +extra testing
08:54:27 <abranson> especially when there's no supported language that needs it.
08:54:29 <ggabriel> although the competition doesn't test non US English so much anyway
08:54:34 <flypig> ggabriel, yes. It might be technically straightforward, but to actually support it as a first-class feature, that's very hard I think.
08:54:45 * Mister_Magister laughing too hard at system-wide radio luxemburg
08:55:09 <piggz> speaking of radio, i see someone released a decent shoutcast app
08:55:11 <abranson> stop it, i've got bright red
08:57:31 <Jaymzz> 3 min on this :)
08:57:48 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: how's your work at jolla you seem extremely busy
08:58:05 <Mister_Magister> well like every sailor except for mal
08:58:37 <abranson> mal's the busiest! he practically never stops
08:58:51 <Mister_Magister> abranson: but he is also always on irc
08:59:01 <flypig> abranson, I was thinking the same.
08:59:11 <Mister_Magister> is sledges even working still? haven't seen him in ages
08:59:20 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: My work or in general? I'm not particularly busy compared to many. I am working less hours than before tho :)
08:59:28 <Mister_Magister> aye i remember
09:00:02 * Mister_Magister curses jolla recruiters
09:00:38 <Mister_Magister> volte when lol
09:01:11 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: will contact u after meeting
09:01:15 <Jaymzz> Mister_Magister: you ask this as the time is up ;)
09:01:18 <Jaymzz> ok do so
09:01:25 <Jaymzz> moving on
09:01:26 <Mister_Magister> Jaymzz: just feeling time
09:01:31 * Mister_Magister filling*
09:01:39 <Jaymzz> #topic next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:01:47 <Mister_Magister> +1
09:02:01 <Jaymzz> #info Next meeting will be held on July 9th 2020 at 08:00 UTC
09:02:35 <Jaymzz> Alright people, ending the meeting. Thanks all for attending and for your discussions! much appreciated :)
09:02:41 <ggabriel> thanks Jaymzz
09:02:46 <ggabriel> good luck with your internet ;)
09:02:57 <Jaymzz> ggabriel: I'm definitely changing ISP
09:03:01 <Jaymzz> #endmeeting