07:00:00 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 2020
07:00:00 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Oct  1 07:00:00 2020 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
07:00:00 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
07:00:07 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
07:00:10 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-1st-oct-2020/2132
07:00:26 <sledges> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be polite.
07:00:33 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
07:01:30 <Nico[m]> #info Nico, Community
07:01:38 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla
07:01:40 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä - community
07:01:47 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla
07:02:04 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar, sailor @ Jolla
07:02:24 <santhoshmanikand> #info Santhosh Manikandan - community
07:02:57 <abranson> #info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla
07:05:55 <sledges> no topics today, gen. discussion only:)
07:05:56 <sledges> #topic General Discussion (30 min)
07:06:48 <Nico[m]> So 3.4 was a giant update! The new browser engine is amazing! I didn't think that just 58 would make such a big difference!
07:06:49 <ExTechOp> Sailfish Pallas-Yllästunturi landed, any new issues crop up?
07:07:46 <Nico[m]> On the other hand, it seems like upgrading was not very smooth: It deleted all my wifi connections and it bricked quite a few phones. Do you think we'll see a second EA release?
07:08:37 <ExTechOp> Indeed, took me a moment to notice that I was no longer on my wifi.
07:08:52 <rinigus> with long term future of OBS being shaky at best, should we expect 3.4.x.y targets on it?
07:10:43 <Nico[m]> Also, is the next browser engine update already being worked on or will other areas be focuesd on for now?
07:11:12 <abranson> rinigus: of course, it's been made clear that OBS isn't going anywhere until alternatives are in place
07:11:32 <rinigus> abranson: excellent, thank you very much!
07:12:04 <abranson> there's really no need to panic
07:12:41 <abranson> Nico[m]: you can see the progress on ESR60 in the browser repos
07:12:55 <abranson> that's why there's rust now
07:12:55 <rinigus> indeed, "no panic" is reasonable. :)
07:13:18 <Thaodan> I think also some stuff like some phones that look bricked is hard to test for, especially if you install packages that mod the system.
07:13:40 <Thaodan> Thinks like aliendalvik control are a huge source of problems
07:13:45 <ViGe> Nico[m]: I suppose the answer to your question is "yes, it is being worked on already" - as you can see from the abovementioned browser repos
07:13:51 <rinigus> technical blog is upcoming, as mentioned in release notes. please cover aarch64 aspects and gles3 support. or write up somewhere what it means for ports and official devices.
07:14:15 <Nico[m]> abranson, ViGe: awesome, thanks :D
07:15:07 <Nico[m]> Thaodan: Funnily enough, aliendalvik control didn't cause issues on my system. But yeah, those things are hard to test
07:15:12 <Thaodan> I think for aarch64 will come more once there is Sailfish X support there and the hadk gets updated
07:15:40 <abranson> those overlay apps are especially problematic. we'd even blacklisted aliendalvik-control 9.2.0 in this release to prevent people booting to a blank screen. but then 9.3.0-1 appeared the same morning as we released 3.4.0 , which tried to solve the problem but was a bit broken too :/
07:16:28 <rinigus> Thaodan: so we cannot switch yet over to 64bit stack fully?
07:16:35 <Nico[m]> abranson: aww, that sucks... But good try, I guess :D
07:16:54 <Nico[m]> rinigus: ABI is not stable yet
07:17:26 <Nico[m]> So I expect breaking changes :3
07:18:07 <rinigus> with SFOS X - the program got stalled a bit (haven't checked the repos though). but I guess you cannot say much over here about it
07:18:13 <abranson> Nico[m]: yeah, though the attempt is appreciated. there is a new system in 3.4.0 which will warn you if you have packages installed that aren't from the system repo that might interfere with the upgrade process. of course that will only work on the next release, but it should prevent these half-upgraded system problems.
07:18:34 <Thaodan> rinigus: its still early I think and things will be fleshed out once things a port that is open to the public
07:19:14 <Nico[m]> Btw, I noticed it has become increasingly hard to update on Xperia X devices, since Sailfish is almost 1.5GB big now and the root partition is like 2GB, so 500MB updates get tight! Is there a good solution to that apart from doing smaller updates? :D
07:19:43 <ViGe> Nico[m] is right - the aarch64 ABI is not stable yet, and there *will* be breaking changes. So you can play around with it, but expect to rebuild everything later on...
07:19:52 <Nico[m]> abranson: How does that work? Does it flag all packages or just those, that modify similar files?
07:20:14 <Nico[m]> I think something like the latter was mentioned in the release notes
07:20:35 <rinigus> thanks for insights regarding aarch64
07:20:49 <abranson> Nico[m]:  It should still be enough to update, but maybe its more the case that an older installation would have accumulated cruft. we should have lists of places to check for mess, like /var/log
07:21:15 <flypig> There's the info page under Settings>Storages that helps with some of that cruft.
07:21:17 <rinigus> re updates and storage: maybe should use system_a for those official devices that have it?
07:21:35 <mal> there is already one community device using aarch64 by me, not public yet because it's not perfect
07:22:06 <ExTechOp> "Perfect is the enemy of good" :-D
07:22:16 <rinigus> mal: knowing you a little bit, it will never be perfect by your standards
07:22:24 <Thaodan> Nico[m]: Also community packages should have no vendor set and Jolla packages have vendor: meego
07:23:06 <abranson> Nico[m]: no third-party package should be involved in the upgrade at all, even if it needs to be uninstalled because the libs it depends on have changed. these problems occur when uninstall hooks try to run in these packages that don't work in the upgrade environment. if one is present in the pending transaction, then you get warned.
07:23:35 <mal> in the original 32-bit build for that device there was a graphics hack and some small issue with fingerprints, aarch64 build has also issue with video recording in addition to that
07:24:15 <rinigus> mal: looking forward to see those changes ... it is great that there is a progress on aarch64. I presume it is aosp10 as well, right?
07:24:34 <Thaodan> rinigus: no its not
07:24:38 <mal> that is hybris-16.0 based
07:24:49 <Thaodan> AOSP10 is still wip
07:25:34 <rinigus> sounds like they both are.
07:26:23 <abranson> one's pretty much done, the other has really just started
07:26:53 <Nico[m]> abranson: I tried very carfully to check for cruft. I do have 20mb of logs or so, but I was missing like 200mb. In the end I uninstalled a few apps and that worked, but it took a while and is probably not that easy to do for less technical users.
07:26:59 <mal> related to interesting things, I should try to finish my vulkan support at some point
07:27:14 <Nico[m]> Also, the upgrade stuff is ineresting, thanks :3
07:27:14 <rinigus> now I have to ask - which one is almost done and which one just started?
07:28:08 <abranson> well the 64bit one has actually been mentioned in the release notes, which should give you a clue :)
07:28:22 <Nico[m]> Also, has there been some consideration regarding the overlays in the mail app? The don't look very Sailfish :3
07:28:42 <abranson> Nico[m]: I think also there might be some apps that put too much stuff in /usr/share that could go somewhere on the home partition where the space is
07:28:44 <flypig> Nico[m], currently debug packages are stored in the system partition I believe. If you have any of those installed, it can help to remove them.
07:28:49 <Nico[m]> abranson: Well, since it was announced, it means we will never see it?
07:28:54 <abranson> cheeky!
07:28:56 <abranson> :)
07:29:23 <Nico[m]> flypig: Ah, that can be, I debugged quite a bit on my device :3
07:30:07 <sledges> Nico[m]: flypig: Developer tools has new setting to store debug symbols under home
07:30:31 <flypig> sledges, I missed that. Nice :)
07:30:56 <Nico[m]> It would also be nice to have an official way to contribute to the silica docs, they have some issues, like using Column properties only available in 5.6, but only importing Quick 2.5...
07:31:04 <Nico[m]> sledges: Oh, cool, thanks for the tip :3
07:31:06 <sledges> 5mins remaining everyone
07:31:10 <abranson> before that, you can't beat a 'zypper rm *debug*' to free up a bit of space
07:33:42 <Nico[m]> Also, switching users shows a garbeled texture for a bit, I guess I should report that in the forums...
07:33:57 <abranson> though that now removes 'jolla-developer-mode-home-debug-location' which probably isn't best :D
07:34:32 <Nico[m]> abranson: That's why you run it before enabling the option!
07:34:46 <abranson> zypper rm *debug[si]* is much better
07:35:19 <ExTechOp> Anyone have suggestions on adding Google Hangouts connectivity, haven't had it since Sailfish dropped support?
07:35:52 <Nico[m]> ExTechOp: I think Google changed their sign in stuff again, which broke everything
07:36:48 <abranson> ExTechOp: there's still no public API for that, is there? it all depends on apps people have reverse engineered and it's a cat and mouse game when google change something. I liked that Hangish app but the dev stopped working on it.
07:37:03 <sledges> #info Summary of discussion: ESR60 is progressing. 3.4.0: fixable niggles should warrant another RC, 64bit support is experimental, new "Store debug symbols to home partition" setting in Developer tools should ease future updates (those devs still on 3.3.0 can helped themselves to `zypper rm *debug[si]*`)
07:37:43 <flypig> Very succinct :)
07:37:47 <abranson> ^ first rate chairing there
07:37:53 <Nico[m]> Good summary :3
07:38:02 <sledges> speaking of which, time's up ;) any last words to extend? :D
07:38:49 <sledges> silence means consent:))
07:38:50 <sledges> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
07:38:55 <sledges> Proposing 15th October at 7am UTC
07:39:04 <Nico[m]> I think I'm good. I have so much I could talk about the update, because it is so awesome, but... that would take too long :3
07:39:14 <sledges> thanks for good words Nico[m]
07:41:29 * sledges enjoys the silence together with Depeche Mode
07:41:43 <Nico[m]> Good choice :3
07:42:02 <Nico[m]> But as we all know, if none disagrees, everyone agrees.
07:42:12 <Nico[m]> So I guess 15th is good
07:42:35 <flypig> I can't think of a reason to object to 15 October :)
07:42:38 <ExTechOp> I guess so.
07:42:58 <Nico[m]> 7am sounds early, but probably because of the timezone
07:42:58 <sledges> a'ight:)
07:43:23 <flypig> Is there anywhere on UTC right now?
07:43:33 <sledges> not yet:)
07:43:47 <sledges> we'll turn the clocks at the end of the month, so will belate the meeting too
07:44:00 <sledges> 8am UTC means that a meeting over an hours spills into Finnish lunchtime :/
07:44:28 <sledges> let's keep it ticking for now
07:44:29 <Nico[m]> Fair, you shouldn't miss lunch
07:44:31 <sledges> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th October 2020 at 7:00am UTC:  2020-10-15T07Z
07:45:00 <flypig> Some of Greenland is on UTC, apparently :)
07:45:06 <sledges> thanks all, let's continue massagging 3.4.0 :))
07:45:11 <sledges> #endmeeting