08:00:00 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 11th March 2021
08:00:00 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 11 08:00:00 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:00 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:02 <ExTechOp> Good Morning!
08:00:08 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:00:10 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-11th-mar-2021/5187
08:00:18 <sledges> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please, Austin, behave.
08:00:43 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:00:51 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
08:01:07 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä -- community
08:01:45 <rubdos[ma]> #info Ruben De Smet -- community
08:01:53 <karry> #info Lukáš Karas - community, developer
08:01:59 <ViGe_> #info Ville Nummela -- sailor@Jolla
08:02:03 <santhoshm> #info Santhosh Manikandan - community
08:02:06 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor@jolla
08:02:07 <xylobol[m]> #info Daniel Vinci -- community, probable future developer
08:02:39 <abranson_> #info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla
08:02:40 <UKSteveE> #info SteveE Uk user
08:03:12 <Setok> #info Krisroffer Lawson -- user, ex founder of Solu & CEO & attractive.ai
08:03:54 <sledges> welcome one and all, nice to see new nicknames!
08:04:36 <xylobol[m]> yo
08:05:33 <sledges> hmm thigg is not around (yet they promised to show up this time for the repetition of the topic)
08:05:39 <jpetrell> #info Joona Petrell - Sailor@Jolla
08:05:54 <sledges> we'd like to hear his thought first hand, so will swap the order of topics, Setok you're next :)
08:06:05 <Setok> OK
08:06:17 <sledges> #topic Status of Sailfish X (10 min -- asked by Setok)
08:06:29 <sledges> #info <Setok> No new device support has been announced in well over a year with currently supported devices ageing and mostly unavailable in shops. Jolla’s main page does not link to Sailfish X. Is it now considered to be in maintenance mode or is the plan still to develop it (for e.g. Xperia 10 ii)?
08:06:56 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Sailfish X is alive and well. We also noticed Jolla’s main page lacks link to Sailfish X, we are planning to add one there soon.
08:07:02 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Regarding Xperia 10 II, we’re looking into broadening the supported Sailfish OS hardware selection and into enabling this product to the officially supported products.
08:07:09 <sledges> #info <Jolla> However, please bear in mind that for now we can’t promise any schedule for it and should you choose to obtain this hardware it shall be your decision at risk. Thank you keeping this clear in mind!
08:07:44 <Setok> Is Sailfish X still of strategic interest for Jolla, so it will continue to be developed in the future?
08:09:28 <sledges> for now we're doing as much as we can to better the experience of current devices: please look forward to a nice fix addressing random reboots on Xperia 10 in the next release \o/
08:09:57 * rubdos[ma] reacts with a 🎉 emoji
08:11:00 <rubdos[ma]> Any future for non-Sony devices, is there any discussion on that?
08:11:06 <Setok> That's good to hear. Perhaps you can share some info about the current state of Xperia 10 II (or any other device), is it actively being developed (I understand the time isn't known) or just something that you are exploring?
08:11:07 <rubdos[ma]> (Probably a far fetched question at this point...)
08:11:23 <ExTechOp> I was just going to ask, are there any details of future hardware support that could be released?
08:11:43 <xylobol[m]> <rubdos[ma] "Any future for non-Sony devices,"> I've been thinking of attempting a port to the Pixel 4, although that obviously wouldn't be official
08:11:53 <ApBBB> Setok they are fixing the camera and sorting the other bugs. you can see it happening in various git branches
08:13:44 <Setok> ApBBB: yeah I can see that. Though it was stated this might be just Android 10 support work. I'd be keen to hear if Sailfish X is actively being developed for future decices or more of a backburner type of thing
08:14:27 <Setok> (I understand the real business may be in Sailfish business partners, rather than Sailfish X, so X might be more of an internal hobby)
08:14:56 <jpetrell> the need for Sailfish X hasn't gone away. while we don't develop devices like Jolla 1 ourselves anymore, we need to have developer devices available for community, customer evaluations, internal development, etc.
08:15:24 <Setok> (Good also to hear X will gain a link from the front page, showing it's at least of some importance :) )
08:15:59 <xylobol[m]> speaking of the links, sailfishos.org could do with some more information on it
08:16:27 <xylobol[m]> doesn't link to support or Sailfish X
08:16:33 <jpetrell> yeah true
08:17:06 <Setok> jpetrell: that's good to hear. I've been looking to get back into Sailfish (have a Jolla 1), but would probably only want to jump onto a shiny new Xperia 10ii (or similar newer device) which are now available at good prices :D
08:17:44 <xylobol[m]> I was recently able to get an XA2 Ultra for around $100 used on eBay, thing's a trooper
08:18:00 <xylobol[m]> been thinking of getting a 10ii for if/when SFX is released for it
08:18:01 <UKSteveE> jpetrell: so if Sailfish X is just for development devive use, evaluations and internal development does that mean you are not focussing on consumers who just want to use Sailfish?
08:18:06 <ApBBB> those phones are not the best fit for sailfish :/
08:19:26 <ExTechOp> xylobol[m] I also use a XA2 Ultra, I chose it because of the battery size :-)
08:19:36 <Setok> For Jolla folks I do want to say it's great there is a 3rd option which hopefully will grow. iPhones are fine for what they are, but I really can't get along with Android... got a stash of Android phones as travel phones and I would prefer to switch to something else :P Always enjoyed SF more
08:19:56 <xylobol[m]> <ExTechOp "xylobol I also use a XA2 Ultra, "> yeah I love the thing, particularly the SD card slot (put a 256GB SD card in there, enough to carry my entire FLAC library with me)
08:20:42 <flypig> Nice to hear Setok; I share your feelings :)
08:21:06 <abranson_> It's the only one of the three that actually lets you own your phone ;)
08:21:35 <Setok> Perhaps that ties into UKSteveE's concern: are you still hoping to get new consumers onto SF as well, or just developer types?
08:23:16 <ApBBB> you cant have general consumers at the curent state of SFOS. (app etc). it is more targeted at the more techy users
08:23:19 <jpetrell> UKSteveE: yes, the business focus is not on consumer side but more towards corporate customers. but the good thing is that both want security, smooth connectivity, good browser, etc. and many of us are both personal and work phone users
08:23:52 <xylobol[m]> both also want VoLTE ;)
08:24:04 <Setok> It's a valid question because while I get the privacy/hackability stuff on SF, it's actually the unique UX which interests me most :) It's much nicer to use than Android
08:25:26 <ApBBB> for most the cool UI matters little if he cant use the apps they need
08:25:36 <UKSteveE> ApBBB: but the current state of SF is, what, seven years in development and you're saying its still nit usable? ?
08:25:50 <UKSteveE> *not*
08:26:03 <sledges> Setok: community porters can already build a (limited) image for x10ii and other android10 phones, and here's the status: https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Xperia_Android_10_Build_and_Flash#Adaptation_Status
08:26:09 <ApBBB> UKSteveE depends on what you want to do with it.
08:26:45 <ApBBB> is for me that i don't use facebook insta or other stuff like that its perfectly usable. all i miss is a matrix client
08:26:54 <ApBBB> but i am not the typical smartphone user
08:27:23 <ExTechOp> ApBBB I doubt any of us are :-/
08:27:25 <ApBBB> ie if you cant run the companion app for you new gadget (which you can on android or ios) the phone is useless
08:27:43 <Setok> ApBBB: sure, which is why Android support is key, and hopefully an ever evolving Jolla store. Some users are willing to lose some apps for an overall better experience. For many usecases the basic set of apps are enough (I have one friend who just uses a SF Sony with no hacking and only 1-2 Android apps)
08:27:54 <xylobol[m]> Alien Dalvik has been managing to hold me over as far as Matrix and Instagram go but I'd like native clients that work with the SFOS UX
08:28:04 <Setok> 2nd phone use cases are also easily covered by a basic set of apps
08:28:36 <Setok> sledges: thanks, yeah, I saw that. That's probably what got most people excited :)
08:28:38 <UKSteveE> i ApBBB True, I use it everyday, but not as my maon phone as there are too many bits that don't work properly. but its not yet good enough to use as an only phone.
08:28:49 <sledges> Setok: just answering on adaptation status then:)
08:28:55 <ViGe_> ApBBB: That's why you only buy gadgets which are have Sailfish companion apps :-P
08:29:10 <sledges> let's move to the next topic, as much as we wait for thigg, they're not showing up, so we'll just slide through
08:29:23 <Setok> OK, thanks for taking the extra time on this
08:29:33 <sledges> good talk!
08:29:34 <ApBBB> ViGe_ that will save me quite a few euro :P
08:29:38 <sledges> #topic QtMediaPlayer, change audiosspeed with pitch compensation (10 min -- asked by thigg)
08:29:48 <sledges> #info <thigg> When playing audiobooks or podcasts people like to change the playback speed. Currently the mediaplayer allows adjusting the speed but it has no pitch compensation. Thus the speakers are pitched higher/lower. Gstreamer has plugins that can be put into the pipeline which do this, but the gstreamer pipeline is only modifyable after QT5.12.
08:30:00 <sledges> #info <thigg> Are workarounds possible? Is it planned to add some kind of feature that allows this easily?
08:30:12 <sledges> #info <Jolla> As we said last week, we have no plans to implement anything like this right now. However, maybe it's possible to modify QtMultimedia to include a suitable plugin while avoiding backporting upstream changes.
08:30:21 <sledges> #link https://git.sailfishos.org/mer-core/qtmultimedia/tree/mer-5.6
08:32:28 <xylobol[m]> just to make sure that I'm understanding correctly, the reason that the Qt version hasn't been bumped in a while is licensing?
08:36:47 <flypig> xylobol[m], I think that was covered in the last meeting, it's probably best to review the logs from there.
08:36:56 <sledges> last meeting we discussed Qt versions, and it's on the roadmap but no firm schedule
08:36:56 <xylobol[m]> alright
08:37:09 <flypig> https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2021/sailfishos-meeting.2021-02-25-08.00.html
08:38:13 <karry> It should be possible from c++ code, right? (building gst pipeline "manually"), what is preventing you to add small custom QML component?
08:39:18 <sledges> that's what we also suggested last time (a plugin, for QML-only apps)
08:40:23 <sledges> let's hope thigg will comment in the problem post
08:40:29 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/no-pitch-compensation-when-playing-audio-with-playbackrate-1/1369
08:40:31 <abranson_> Was he suggesting adding a pitch adjustment element to the pipeline? could that be something that is always there, but doesn't do much until it's set to change the pitch on seek?
08:41:32 <sledges> thanks for chipping in, karry! Let's move it to general discussion
08:41:35 <sledges> #topic General Discussion (30 min)
08:42:40 <xylobol[m]> any chances of an official launch of Sailfish X in the States?
08:42:42 <ApBBB> since we are in GD i have a question about future SFOS development. Has anyone looked into integratind the systemd-homed stuff and pipewire?
08:43:33 <ApBBB> systemd will probably make some things like backup, transfers to new phones etc easier and pipewire seems to solve quite a few audio issues plus video issues.
08:43:58 <ExTechOp> ApBBB I will admit I'm not a fan of systemd
08:45:27 <rubdos[ma]> pipewire, at this point, seems to have quite some rough edges currently in my experience. But it's probably "necessary" at some point, since it's there to stay and the rough edges will be gone at a point.
08:46:02 <rubdos[ma]> Would be interested to hear from Jolla on this nevertheless, because it's the same book as all the other "outdated" things.
08:47:06 <ApBBB> rubdos[ma] on a desktop many use the pulse layer for compatibility and it works. (minus a few bugs here and there). on a phone it will probably be more complex
08:47:10 <xylobol[m]> what issues have you had with pipewire?
08:47:57 <ApBBB> idealy we would have sfos natively use pipewire but that probably need to go through Qt
08:48:10 <xylobol[m]> oh, as a side note, I need to file a bug report for this, but audio on the XA2 Ultra freaks out when system audio (e.g. notification chime, keyboard noises) are played over an Android app's audio
08:48:13 <rubdos[ma]> Locked up a few times on me, doesn't seem to have a memory of the preferred outputs. PulseEffects seemed to trigger some lock up too, but they all seem debuggable and fixable things.
08:48:24 <xylobol[m]> I encountered this in a voice call using Jitsi Meet for Android the other day
08:48:33 <xylobol[m]> some experimentation determined it to be system audio
08:49:03 <ApBBB> also pipewire also makes it easier to create screen recorder apps and whatever. we need those on SFOS
08:50:17 <flypig> xylobol[m], if you can consistently reproduce, it would be good if you could put a bug report on the forum, as you say.
08:50:44 <xylobol[m]> I need to do some more research to see exactly what it is, I'm not totally confident
08:51:01 <flypig> The more info you can give, the better of course.
08:51:08 <xylobol[m]> for now you can """reproduce""" by installing Jitsi Meet in Alien Dalvik then trying to do other things on the phone
08:51:14 <xylobol[m]> the audio will get super choppy
08:51:29 <xylobol[m]> you need to switch back to Jitsi and tap around for a minute to get it back to normal
08:51:34 <xylobol[m]> sometimes it works fine, it's so strange
08:52:02 <xylobol[m]> I'm going to try to put together a test using other Android apps as the only Android app I use that plays audio is Jitsi
08:52:06 <sledges> xylobol[m]: does it get choppy when UI animation is happening? I had this on GoToMeeting android app when pressing menu button that slides out a side pane
08:52:21 <xylobol[m]> sometimes
08:52:33 <xylobol[m]> it seems to happen either way
08:53:04 <abranson_> yeah I see that on whatsapp calls too, whenever the UI overlay appears after a tap
08:53:31 <xylobol[m]> interesting
08:56:43 <sledges> any impressions while using SFOS4 for the last weeks? :)
08:58:06 <rubdos[ma]> I like it.
08:58:16 <rubdos[ma]> Most of it, at least.
08:58:51 <ExTechOp> I've had a bit of issues with SFOS4 contact sync, as in, Google contacts have been missing but re-syncing has brought them back. This resembles an earlier SFOS3 bug where this happened on a regular basis, but this hasn't recurred.
08:58:59 <rubdos[ma]> Some elements seem to have gone less Sailfishy (ie, buttons in the mail app, the notification bar is a bit... Androidy), but other than that I've been quite happy with it
08:59:04 <rubdos[ma]> Also lost a few contacts, sadly :(
08:59:53 <xylobol[m]> <sledges "any impressions while using SFOS"> I love it
08:59:54 <karry> SFOS4 is nice update, it seems to me that "jailed" applications starts bit slowly, but not big deal...
08:59:56 <flypig> ExTechOp, I think that was expected: there were some changes that required an initial re-sync of contacts.
09:00:09 <xylobol[m]> <karry "SFOS4 is nice update, it seems t"> this is pretty noticable
09:00:27 <flypig> ExTechOp, so hopefully shouldn't recur.
09:00:37 <UKSteveE> The OS itself is getting better slowly in 4 but the core apps not so.
09:01:07 <karry> ...And I have issue with account configuration: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/4-0-1-45-account-configuration-is-not-working/4578
09:01:09 <Setok> No OS4 on Jolla 1, but the other week I went through the process of updating my Jolla 1 from 2.0 all the way to 3.4. Took me some time, but I got there! 4 looked really interesting in the pictures (tabs etc). Just waiting for a more recent device to run it on :)
09:01:14 <rubdos[ma]> Oh and I love Firefox 60, it's so much faster.
09:01:45 <rubdos[ma]> (I even dare say so while Gabriel Margiani and I had so much time spent on getting ESR 60 to work with Whisperfish captchas...)
09:01:46 <sledges> rubdos[ma]: always need a bit of poison (Android) in any good recipe:))
09:01:53 <ApBBB> slow is never good. SFOS already feels unresponsive in a way
09:02:00 <ExTechOp> The consistency of the user interface seems to still be a continuing issue, eg. the Settings / Accounts UI is still the same as it has been, where all the changes you make are immediately saved, as opposed to other places where you have to "accept" the changes you make.
09:02:42 <Setok> On a sidenote I'll say the Jolla calculator is still the best app ever. I really wish my iPhone had it :P ('digits' is a poor alternative)
09:03:01 <xylobol[m]> ^
09:03:15 <UKSteveE> need to concentrate also on simple system wide functionality like copy/ paste, share, etc. E.g still cant copy text from an email
09:03:25 <xylobol[m]> <Setok "On a sidenote I'll say the Jolla"> chick in my engineering class yesterday was actually impressed by it
09:03:39 <Setok> xylobol[m] <3
09:03:41 <ExTechOp> Setok It's a shame the RPNcalc app never got updated to newer SFOS :-/
09:03:42 <xylobol[m]> on the other hand the guy behind me said "Sony still makes phones?!" so your mileage may vary
09:04:00 <Setok> :D
09:04:02 <sledges> UKSteveE: i can long press and select text in email view hmm
09:04:15 <ViGe_> UKSteveE: What do you mean? Copying text from emails has been supported for quite a long time
09:05:05 <ApBBB> BTW does SFOS has some kind of motion blur or something?
09:05:16 <ApBBB> when scrolling on the browser or email?
09:05:36 <UKSteveE> sledges: onlw way i can is to press repky and copy from the quoted text... drives me nuts!
09:05:45 <flypig> karry, I'd not seen your bug report before, but that's not normal behaviour. Not sure what would cause that I'm afraid.
09:05:51 <sledges> UKSteveE: which version are you on? that's very odd, WFM :
09:06:13 <UKSteveE> or whatever
09:06:34 <ExTechOp> When I went to a mobile phone repair shop to replace the battery on another phone, the guys there were intrigued by SFOS :-)
09:07:37 <ExTechOp> UKStevE For me, copy from emails works.
09:07:48 <sledges> UKSteveE: it's been implemented in 3.4.0: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/release-notes-pallas-yllastunturi-3-4-0/2258 "Text selection and copying from email messages implemented"
09:08:16 <flypig> UKSteveE, does text selection work for you in the browser work?
09:08:49 <UKSteveE> i can select text with s long press, but no copy button
09:09:02 <flypig> It should automatically copy when selected.
09:09:08 <sledges> UKSteveE: SFOS is a click-paste system like Linux:)
09:09:10 <UKSteveE> flypig: hang on.....
09:09:44 <Setok> <ExTechOp "guys there were intrigued by SFOS"> :) I think that's how the word can spread. My rekindled interest came from when the above-mentioned friend inherited his SF Sony phone and started using it. I had to grab it for a while to see how things had evolved and I was hooked again by the top menus, app view etc. It's just full of nice ideas
09:09:45 <karry> @flypig I know, it seems that I am the only one with such issue... Debug packages for account library would help to investigate it, but I understand that you don't want to publish debugsource :-)
09:10:40 <UKSteveE> flypig: browser, yes... i get a nice 'copief to clipboard' message...
09:10:48 <rubdos[ma]> karry, you need to hold quite a long time on a word before it gets selected, like 3 or 5 seconds or so.
09:11:04 <rubdos[ma]> (wrong nick, should've been UKSteveE )
09:11:30 <UKSteveE> maybe its just tge message thats missing in email si i assimed it didnt work
09:13:20 <UKSteveE> ok, just tried in email.it does work but no message to confirm
09:13:39 <ApBBB> BTW the text selection on the email is not the most precise thing. its a bit hit or miss
09:13:39 <ExTechOp> So it's a bit like traditional X mouse copy-paste
09:14:01 <flypig> karry, that definitely needs to be looked at. It may be that you're just missing a package/file or something, but it'll need deeper investigation.
09:14:43 <sledges> that or maybe tempt karry into "NDA is the way" just like Damien Caliste is doing:)
09:14:58 <sledges> for contribs on closed source code
09:15:24 <flypig> Yeah, if karry's up for that, it would make it easier.
09:16:29 <sledges> okeydo! let's wrap up, thanks for your insightsfos4!
09:16:33 <sledges> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:16:36 <sledges> Proposing Thursday 25th March at 8am UTC
09:16:49 <karry> @sledges I have no problem with it (if conditions are sane :-) )
09:16:58 <UKSteveE> bits of sailfish like this are very non-intuitive as it works so differently to other mainstream phone os's. if you guys hadnt have told me about copy/paste, how would i have known? probably just gone on thinking it didnt work...
09:18:27 <flypig> UKSteveE, I think this has always been the way SF worked, but it's understandable with email, since it didn't work like this for a long time.
09:18:28 <sledges> karry: awesome! shoot me your contact info (via forum if you're ok with that)
09:19:06 <sledges> UKSteveE: it shows "copied to clipboard" message in email as well, so something's fishy:)
09:19:35 <ExTechOp> sledges This time would work
09:19:53 <xylobol[m]> these times are painful as an american
09:19:57 <xylobol[m]> it's 2:30AM here in Denver
09:20:06 <xylobol[m]> * it's 2:30AM here in Denver, Colorado
09:20:08 <sledges> ExTechOp: great!
09:20:09 <flypig> You are truly dedicated!
09:20:26 <sledges> xylobol[m]: ouch sorry, we try to cater Australia as our sailor chriadam is often around:)
09:20:37 <sledges> can't brace the whole earth sadly:]
09:20:39 <xylobol[m]> paging srxl
09:20:45 <srxl> hi
09:20:46 <xylobol[m]> 😔✊
09:20:49 <sledges> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 25th March 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2021-03-25T08Z
09:21:20 <sledges> thank you all! true dedication from across the pond, indeed:)
09:21:22 <sledges> #endmeeting