07:00:00 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 3rd June 2021
07:00:00 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Jun  3 07:00:00 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
07:00:00 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
07:00:05 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
07:00:09 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-3rd-june/6673
07:00:16 <sledges> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and hebave.
07:00:19 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
07:00:31 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
07:00:31 <ExTechOp> We promise to hebave well.
07:00:45 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä -- community
07:00:50 <sledges> (there's a crypting message there somewhere;)
07:00:53 <sledges> *cryptic
07:00:58 <karry_> #info Lukas Karas - community, developer
07:01:01 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela -- Sailor @ Jolla
07:01:04 <abr> #info Andrew Branson - sailing by
07:01:07 <fridl> #info fridlmue - community
07:01:27 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla
07:01:28 <sledges> abr: from where to where?:)
07:01:53 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
07:02:24 <abr> sledges: who knows, man? who knows
07:03:16 <pketo> #info Pami Ketolainen, Sailor @ Jolla
07:04:02 <sledges> jolla 5:4 community
07:04:11 <lbt> #info David Greaves, Sailor @ Jolla
07:04:20 <lbt> make that 6
07:04:36 <sledges> goooo ... ooo ... al
07:05:20 <jpetrell> #info Joona Petrell, sailor at Jolla
07:05:22 <sledges> hmm at least ddobrev could score one for the team
07:05:25 <lbt> ROFL
07:05:29 <sledges> (he's got 3 topics today)
07:05:44 <sledges> *they've
07:06:40 <sledges> (hattrick?)
07:06:41 <sledges> #topic Bluetooth with Android applications (15min -- asked by ddobrev)
07:06:49 <sledges> #info <ddobrev> Some Android applications cannot function without Bluetooth and have no equivalent so this is important. Let's discuss the technical challenges and the possible solutions and deadlines.
07:07:11 <sledges> #info <Jolla> We are looking into this, but we do not have any schedule to announce on this.
07:07:51 <sledges> it's a truly sore topic, especially now that i got given a fitbit:))
07:08:18 <ApBBB> you can always write a native app for fitbit X-P
07:08:57 <flypig> Amazfit has a plugin interface, it'd be great to have a fitbit one.
07:08:59 <sledges> true, i hope it's not too closed down and this still works: https://github.com/benallard/galileo
07:09:32 <flypig> Nice :)
07:09:39 <ApBBB> i have to get this off my chest but it pains me that we have so many support requests for android stuff. (in the forum and everywhere). yes i know SFOS isn't there yet for many things but it pains me =(
07:09:42 <fridl> would be also very nice for all the garmin stuff. There protocol hacking seems to be a issue there. And for outdoor activities it really is some kind of standard device.
07:10:09 <fridl> (Also i would love a native solution there!)
07:11:49 <sledges> #info (in the meantime, talking about community (and sailors' freetime) writing native support for popular BT accessories, here's one hopeful for fitbit:)
07:11:52 <sledges> #link https://github.com/benallard/galileo
07:12:09 <flypig> ApBBB, we unfortunately live in a world of closed APIs and proprietary apps.
07:14:03 <sledges> but for the open parts, it only takes someone to plant a seed, and then hopefully more PRs come in:)
07:14:05 <ApBBB> @flypig yes i know that, and i also know that these wont come until we have a big enough userbase. I personally make the choice to not use them.
07:14:37 <flypig> sledges, yes!
07:14:45 <sledges> Fernschreiber being a very good example
07:14:52 <sledges> but i digress, maybe time to move to another Q
07:15:16 <sledges> #topic Upgrading to 64-bit on older devices (5min -- asked by ddobrev)
07:15:20 <flypig> ApBBB, I honestly admire your resolve.
07:15:27 <sledges> #info <ddobrev> Many devices Jolla supports are 64-bit but so far 64-bit Sailfish is only offered for Xperia 10 II. Let's discuss when we can expect support for all devices and how it would proceed, such as upgrading in place or first saving all data and then transferring it back.
07:15:47 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Upgrading devices to 64-bit would require all users to reflash and for Jolla to support double amount of product lines. There are not many tangible benefits of 32-bit vs 64-bit Sailfish OS that would accellerate such transition.
07:15:59 <sledges> #info <Jolla> We will try to address this matter differently, such as figuring out ways on how to support Sailfish OS community ports (that could then include 64-bit variants of existing adaptations) better in the future of Sailfish X program.
07:17:56 <fridl> that is a great Idea. If there is a way to fuel the community ports with the license-only components this would mean a huge step (imho)
07:19:14 <ApBBB> for things like exchange yes. for things like preddictive text it would be nice to have an open solution for everything so the community can contribute and maybe ???? save some money for jolla (not having to pay for a lisence)
07:19:46 <ApBBB> there was a discussion waaaayyyy back in the day for something like that
07:19:59 <sledges> ApBBB: very true, because Jolla's predictive text is limited only to a handful of 'early' languages
07:20:15 <ApBBB> i know the pain. my language isn't supported
07:20:32 <sledges> if Presage could be integrated out-of-process, then licensing issues could be addressed
07:20:58 <sledges> but if Presage has some UTF limitations, there has been another effort by ljo and his team
07:21:48 <sledges> so hope for better news in the future for all SFOS languages
07:21:50 <sledges> moving on
07:21:52 <sledges> #topic Update on the future of the community OBS (7200sec -- asked by piggz)
07:22:02 <sledges> #info <piggz> It has been some time since an update was given on the future of the community OBS, can you give one? Read the rest about the topic here:
07:22:07 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-3rd-june-2021/6403/4
07:22:20 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Community OBS has been given an extension of at least another 12 months:
07:22:23 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-obs-refurbished-and-re-floated/6556
07:22:52 <sledges> ddobrev's hattrick has been interrupted by piggz:)
07:23:12 * sledges curious if piggz was the first to ask this question, or us starting to write that forum post obs news:)
07:23:36 <lbt> I think he asked first... but I didn't know :D
07:23:40 <sledges> :))
07:24:27 <sledges> well, we have 7130 seconds remaining on this topic, but...
07:24:32 <sledges> where's piggz?:))
07:24:33 <lbt> So we have quite limited resources available to work on the OBS at the minute
07:25:08 <lbt> we need to do OS updates on multiple machines and then upgrade the OBS itself
07:25:13 <sledges> rinigus: ^^
07:25:27 <lbt> there are side-issues such as the dependency on webhooks
07:25:38 <lbt> which needs yet another machine updating
07:25:52 <lbt> so there's a lot to do under the hood
07:25:54 <sledges> machine jenga!
07:26:03 <lbt> yes - many rabbit holes :/
07:26:25 <lbt> once that's all up and running we then need to get the aarch64 version building
07:26:59 <lbt> I'm hoping that will just work as by then we'll have the same OBS version as we use internally
07:27:30 <sledges> #info <lbt> we need to do OS updates on multiple machines and then upgrade the OBS itself
07:27:31 <lbt> the bad news is that the UK is looking quite sunny...
07:28:38 <lbt> I've had offers of help but there's nothing that can realistically be handed off right now. However it's nice that the offers were made :)
07:29:13 <sledges> +1
07:30:28 <sledges> jfdi? :D
07:31:13 <lbt> hehe
07:32:01 <lbt> #info There will be OBS downtime - and probably for extended periods - sorry!
07:32:30 <sledges> probably piggz' and rinigus' apps are the main ones being blocked from going 64
07:32:48 <ApBBB> rinigus rolled his own tool
07:32:51 <sledges> and they are covered in our today's flypig's edition of...
07:32:56 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-3rd-june/6673
07:33:22 <flypig> Thanks for the plug sledges :)
07:33:41 <sledges> tried to transition smoothly, like some youtuber towards ads:)
07:34:16 <flypig> Haha. Pretty smooth :)
07:34:27 <ApBBB> "todays chat session is sponsord by _insert popular YT advert_"
07:34:30 <sledges> still, i'm not an op ;)
07:34:56 <sledges> @smooth - a very old popular song
07:34:58 <sledges> ok, moving on
07:35:02 <sledges> #topic UI responsiveness (15min -- asked by ApBBB)
07:35:10 <sledges> #info <ApBBB> Many have observed that SFOS doesn't feel snappy enough compared to the competition (be it scrolling, transitions of various UI elements etc) and this is not something that has to do with HW. There have been patches that "fix" the situation but jolla hasn't commented in any of the topics.
07:35:22 <sledges> #info <ApBBB> So is it something technical behind all that or just an area that there hasn't been any time spend by the devs. And has jolla been discussing any of that internally. Forum topic for reference:
07:35:38 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/perceived-responsiveness-of-the-ui/2499
07:35:53 <sledges> #info <Jolla> There is definitely room for improvement. We have been shortening transitions (app launch, page opening, sliding in App Grid and other panels) and shortening gesture trigger thresholds (e.g. long-press time out, flicking Home carousel, etc.) in the last few years, but the performance is the kind of work that is never really complete.
07:36:07 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Recently sandboxing caused a bit of regression to the app launch times, but future Qt upgrade should give Sailfish OS notable speed increase through the pre-compilation of QML code, the programming language of the UI. The recent Browser upgrades have greatly improved the speed of handling modern websites.
07:37:17 <jpetrell> Sailfish UI is inheretly a Qt/QML stack, benefits and suffers from many root qualities of QML and underlying scene graph there
07:37:52 <ApBBB> there are some things that are affected by QT the Browser engine etc. That is not the area that i wanted to talk about. the transitions are handled by QML afai understand and there are numbers in there that control them.
07:38:16 <ApBBB> there is a patch in openrepos somewhere that changes these numbers and makes things faster
07:38:35 <flypig> ApBBB, is your concern the type/speed of the animations, or that the animations are dropping frames?
07:38:46 <ApBBB> its those stuff that IMO at least affect the responsiveness of the OS
07:38:54 <ApBBB> type speed
07:38:57 <jpetrell> what transitions specifically?
07:39:45 <ApBBB> jpetrell hmmm from one page to another for example (tap something in the settings the movement to the next page feels slow)
07:40:21 <ApBBB> in the forum topic many more are mentioned
07:41:07 <sledges> https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/perceived-responsiveness-of-the-ui/2499
07:41:15 <jpetrell> page loading was made quite much faster in Sailfish 3 times. most pages take 200-300ms to load so going any faster will just cause you to see the additional fade in transition
07:41:46 <jpetrell> when we get precompilation of QML that 200-300ms goes down
07:41:59 <jpetrell> app launch transition has few parameters which make app fade in faster, but that then start breaking on various occasions. we need more coupling with lower levels to be able to speed those transitions more
07:43:39 <jpetrell> any work on the area will definitely lead to improvements. we periodically visit the transitions and usualle shave off hundreds of milliseconds here and there
07:44:22 <jpetrell> keyboard transitions are one area where I would really like us to improve, but it is also tricky to sync app (native, Android) drawing with composed keyboard window
07:44:38 <sledges> 5 more mins on the topic
07:45:32 <flypig> It would be interesting to know the timings people are using with the patch discussed in the thread.
07:45:56 <ApBBB> i am ok with the explanation by jpetrell.
07:46:09 <jpetrell> also more examples of transitions that feel particularly slow are welcome. we have hundreds :)
07:46:24 <ApBBB> we can discuss further in the forum topic if someone wants to add something
07:47:13 <sledges> #info Further reducing transition timing may bring other visual quirks such as delayed rendering
07:48:04 <jpetrell> yes lets do. this is one of my favourite topics :)
07:48:07 <sledges> #info Findings of reducing delays successfully via patchmanager are welcome, and can be discussed in that dedicated forum topic
07:48:08 <jpetrell> I would like to see everything load semi-instantly, but preloading is a balancing act of using too much resources. and some improvements would require substantial rewrites
07:48:26 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/perceived-responsiveness-of-the-ui/2499
07:48:56 <sledges> cool! let's move forward
07:48:59 <sledges> #topic Download all e-mail at once (10min -- asked by ddobrev)
07:49:03 <sledges> #info <ddobrev> The built-in e-mail client cannot download everything with a single operation. The only way to do it at all is to scroll to the earliest already loaded e-mail and then keep requesting small batches by hand. It's completely impractical for existing accounts with many e-mails.
07:49:18 <sledges> #info <Jolla> The email loading heuristics during scrolling could definitely be improved. Downloading all emails from particular folder is probably impractical, but the view should try to preload more emails in advance and in smarter way to not get into the way of browsing experience.
07:50:03 <jpetrell> please verify we actually understood the question :)
07:51:03 <jpetrell> i.e. whether this is about scrolling email lists or downloading full email content
07:51:22 <sledges> it's about scrolling to the bottom of the list
07:51:29 <sledges> and using pulley to load more
07:51:30 <jpetrell> ok then the answer is ok
07:51:45 * lbt mutters about there being no "next email" either...
07:52:07 <sledges> jpetrell: Thunderbird asks how many emails to sync during an account setup iirc
07:52:13 <sledges> and also can be changed later
07:53:06 * lbt looks at the 6000+ emails in his inbox and is glad they're not all sync'ed at once...
07:53:17 <flypig> We have something like that for Exchange (based on time), but not IMAP or POP I guess.
07:53:45 <jpetrell> qt models don't hold your hand very much so these kind of things are unnecessarily difficult to do for app models. the original QML team experimented with models that would say to view "preload these 100 items will be there in couple of frames" instead of constantly asking for data just when it should appear
07:54:15 <lbt> and don't mention the mailing list folder with 20k *unread* emails... I should unsubscribe...
07:55:12 <sledges> also the search function now also searches in the server, so i'm curious what is ddobrev's use-case
07:55:16 <jpetrell> email view/model is not very well done. like gallery or browser it should let you scroll freely and then items would appear with slight delay if not already there
07:55:20 <flypig> lbt, it makes me feel uncomfortable just from your description.
07:55:58 * lbt is master of wierd use-cases that break apps
07:57:04 <flypig> jpetrell, I could be wrong (didn't check the code), but I think we already have something similar to that for collecting messages from the messageserver backend. But it doesn't trigger fresh downloads.
07:58:09 <sledges> it's time to move to general discussion
07:58:20 <jpetrell> flypig: cool
07:58:24 <sledges> #topic General discussion (15 min)
07:58:40 * fridl reads the phrase "qt upgrade" from Jolla without being "forced" to talk about it in the responsiveness topic and got very interested... ;-P
07:59:32 <flypig> I was just thinking that maybe whatever logic is there for that could also be used for triggering downloads. Anyway, it probably needs proper thought.
08:00:05 <lbt> talk about scrolling always makes me wonder why we don't have better "labelled scrolling" ... as in the People app
08:00:26 <jpetrell> yeah good idea. maybe n9 did this better way (used qmf framework for emails too)
08:00:27 <lbt> like scrolling through pictures showing date ranges
08:00:32 <lbt> or emails
08:00:41 <sledges> +1
08:01:20 <jpetrell> lbt: yeah we should do that. not rocket science. but work nevertheless
08:01:37 <lbt> those may have to be dynamic in the case of emails since the data may not be known - but fast scrolling then would be able to trigger downloads at the bottom
08:02:16 <lbt> hehe - it is indeed- and as you mention it makes the models even more complex to create
08:02:20 <jpetrell> jump to date/section requires model to keep track of section idexes. each model is different so tricky to do as general component
08:02:21 <ExTechOp> What are people's experiences with the brand-spanking-new Xperia 10 II release?
08:03:30 <lbt> jpetrell: would it be a heirarchical mult-level model
08:03:52 <ApBBB> wanted to touch again on the "inconvenience" of SFOS (discussed earlier today with flypic). On april due to an unfortunate event i was away of my main PC and hadn't moved stuff (passwords) to the phone. TBH i didn't miss much. I wouldn't have any issues with it if everything in my main browser was synced to the browser of my phone
08:04:22 <fridl> ExTechOp: Xperia 10 II experience is good so far. Some random app crashes and I particularly have some problems with Mobile Network (https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/4-1-0-24-xperia-10ii-no-internet-connection-on-mobile-data-for-some-webpages/6697), but in general its a lot of fun so far.
08:05:54 <flypig> ApBBB, I've not looked at the FF sync sever API. But something to do that could be written as a third-party app using a webview and accessing the FF backend.
08:05:55 <ApBBB> And for example this is something that we have an open solution for. Firefox has sync. The SFOS browser doesn't support it. Idealy Firefox would be the main browser of the OS but mozilla doesn't care much to put some resources on it. Or at least collaborate with jolla
08:06:08 <karry_> @ExTechOp I have new shiny Xperia 10.II and first experience is good (after week of usage). It has some bugs, like screen freezing time to time, but I can live with that...
08:06:30 <ExTechOp> fridl karry_ Thanks!
08:07:27 <ExTechOp> fridl Switching between wifi and mobile data and back again seems to "always" have been a bit of a problem for Sailfish
08:07:59 <karry_> btw, it seems to me that low-memory-killer is too agresive on Xperia 10.II, I would expect less app stops with 4 GiB ram. Is there some way to tune it?
08:08:22 <ApBBB> flypig what i was trying to say is that if you choose your stuff (services, devices) carefully (ie my bank has a nice web interface) you can live without android. not everybody can but if you can tolerate a few inconveniences then its doable
08:08:53 <sledges> karry_: if OOM kicks in when all memory has been filled up, what was the app(s) that filled it up?
08:09:51 <flypig> ApBBB, yes, I agree with you. You do have to choose your services, but it's entirely possible.
08:10:02 <karry_> sledges, I am not talking about OOM killer, but about low-memory killer. It is different guy
08:10:52 <sledges> karry_: in which scenario does it start killing?
08:11:29 <ApBBB> flypig it also goes to show that if some issue that have to be solved on jollas side get sorted the phone will become even more usable. and this is a way of growing the userbase. the more you solve the more usable the phone becomes for more people
08:11:49 <ApBBB> but i get it that its a matter of resources
08:12:23 <sledges> karry_: LMK looks like Android-only
08:12:55 <fridl> ExTechOp: yeah, it is a problem. But also some kind of a main task for a smartphone, isn't it?
08:12:56 <karry_> sledges - during normal usage I would say - browser, email reading. I don't had time to look on it more deeply. It is just my feeling so far :-)
08:13:13 <flypig> ApBBB, it is a virtuous circle though: more users also equals more resources
08:13:42 <sledges> karry_: android app support running too with some heavy app?
08:15:37 <sledges> btw, what does community think about O{thisisnotspam}F{thisisnotspam}T{thisisnotspam}C irc? it sounds like a more seasoned/stable service and also in neutral waters
08:16:13 <sledges> (and no one has hijacked mal's nick:)
08:17:40 <lbt> I have been wondering how to get the community view on chat services
08:18:34 <ApBBB> TBH instead of IRC i prefer matrix
08:18:49 <sledges> that might come in the future, and have a bridge until then
08:19:02 <ApBBB> feels like going from the old phones with the round dial to a smartphone
08:19:26 <lbt> there are arguments for and against changing technologies as well as considering irc networks
08:20:25 <ViGe> Should we create a poll on the forum?
08:20:35 <karry_> sledges - yes. I will try to look on it, why it is happening :-)
08:20:39 <sledges> once on matrix, then bridges could be created to any network, so people don't have too many accounts
08:20:44 <lbt> I suggested that too ViGe
08:20:47 <sledges> karry_: thanks, will try to replicate
08:20:58 <ApBBB> ViGe there was a topic on the whole situation
08:21:15 <ApBBB> https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/freenode-hostile-takeover/6388
08:21:51 <sledges> we need a short-term solution, and matrix isn't one of them
08:22:18 <sledges> i only asked about the opinion on the abovementioned irc option as most technical and practical aspects within the company veer toward it
08:22:59 <ExTechOp> I haven't checked for a while, what is the current support for device connectivity, eg. to what extent can I expect a PC USB-C "docking station" with things like ethernet, displays, cameras, keyboards to work when plugged into a Sailfish phone?
08:23:40 <sledges> keyboard yes, and audio also surprisingly yes iirc, no display though
08:24:15 <flypig> There was someone doing work on external displays...
08:24:22 <sledges> yep
08:24:57 <ExTechOp> I remember once on a whim plugging in a mouse and being surprised the UI had some kind of support for it.
08:25:01 <ApBBB> doesn;t this mean that the compositor needs to be patched heavily?? to have external monitors?
08:25:04 <ApBBB> on sfos
08:27:40 <sledges> #info about external displays effort:
08:27:42 <sledges> #link https://github.com/sailfish-on-fxtecpro1/droid-config-t5/issues/43
08:28:01 <flypig> That's it; thanks sledges
08:28:09 <sledges> i knew i've seen it somewhere:)
08:29:10 <ApBBB> our compositor also needs the newer wayland protocols (cough cough) X-P
08:29:59 <sledges> and on that bombshell it's time to end!
08:30:02 <sledges> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
08:30:08 <sledges> Proposing Thursday 17th June at 7am UTC
08:30:33 <sledges> oh hang on
08:30:35 <flypig> I think that may be a bad day internally.
08:30:40 <sledges> scratch that, we do
08:30:43 <sledges> yep:))
08:31:17 <sledges> we might have to do a bump-stop meeting now, and that would be the last meeting before the holiday month of July ;)
08:31:53 <sledges> Proposing Thursday 24th June at 7am UTC
08:31:57 <ExTechOp> 24th would be day just before Midsummer eve.
08:32:24 <flypig> Midsummers eve eve
08:32:36 <sledges> it says 18 is midsummer in Fi
08:32:39 <sledges> is our internal calendar wrong?
08:32:53 <ExTechOp> (Finns celebrate both Christmas and Midsummer on the eve)
08:32:59 <sledges> it seems wrong haha
08:33:08 <sledges> well let's hope not too many will take thursday off
08:33:14 <sledges> as any other thursday is worse
08:34:16 <sledges> thanks ExTechOp! i'll poke our calendaree person:))
08:34:21 <ExTechOp> :-D
08:34:32 <sledges> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 24th June 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-06-24T07Z
08:35:07 <sledges> thanks y'all and see you in a fortnight-and-a-half!
08:35:13 <sledges> #endmeeting