08:00:09 <sledges> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021
08:00:09 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 25 08:00:09 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:09 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:15 <sledges> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:00:20 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-25th-november-2021/9052
08:01:01 <sledges> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and always do homework:)
08:01:06 <sledges> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:01:09 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
08:01:14 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä -- community https://i.imgur.com/ufF7bdx.png
08:01:23 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - Sailor @ Jolla
08:01:30 <karry> #info Lukas Karas - community developer
08:01:33 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla
08:01:40 <meegouser> #info meegouser - Sailfish Community Member
08:01:55 <abr> #info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla
08:04:43 <thilo[m]> #info thigg, Community
08:06:10 <sledges> alrighty that's everyone in the class today then 8)
08:06:11 <sledges> #topic Jollas thoughts on giving the option to have the community repo "easily" enabled on the phones. (20 min -- asked by ApB)
08:06:31 <sledges> #info <ApB> The community repo includes all sorts of SW that gives the phone greater functionality than the currently available. Either because this SW is prohibited on the store or various other reasons.
08:06:48 <sledges> #info <ApB> Given that the commercial customers can control what their users use on the phones and assuming there aren't any legal stuff involved i'd like to know how open jolla would be to the idea of having it on the phones and enabled by a switch in the settings somewhere.
08:08:25 <sledges> looks like ApB overslept going to school this morning, so here goes the answer
08:08:31 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Unfortunately we cannot include such settings in Sailfish OS releases, which are made for both our enterprise and community customers.
08:08:38 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Users may include custom repositories to their devices if they wish, but we do not want to encourage use of them as installing software from external and community controlled sources has been a recurring reason for failures in the update process and a source for care requests.
08:08:58 <sledges> #info <Jolla> Our releasing process needs to have a carefully maintained set of repositories and packages that we can predictably maintain, track and verify, both technically and legally.
08:11:07 <flypig> Was any progress made integrating chum with OpenRepos/Storeman? https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/openrepos-and-chum-integration/7578
08:11:28 <ExTechOp> I have a strange feeling that this wasn't quite what was asked, but that the question was somehow misphrased?
08:12:02 <sledges> ExTechOp: 3rd party (community) repo to be added to devices(?)
08:12:16 <sledges> as an optional switch
08:12:43 <ExTechOp> Yes, I did read it, and the given answer did answer what was asked, but I have a feeling they were trying to ask something more but were unable to phrase it.
08:13:05 <sledges> hmm needs more mindreading:)
08:13:17 <flypig> Could you expand ExTechOp? What do you think they meant?
08:13:40 <abr> we've got 15 more mins to chew on it :)
08:13:41 <ExTechOp> Um, that's just it, I'm not sure what they really were about.
08:13:57 <sledges> what would you like to achieve? ;)
08:14:17 <abr> There was a similar thing on the n900 wasn't there? enabling an 'extras' repo that was similar (might have even inspired) the current chum
08:14:36 <flypig> There were discussions in the past about an "experimental" stream in the Jolla Store. I read this a bit like that, but where chum is the experimental stream.
08:15:02 <abr> That brought up a lot of warning about how you might break your phone if you enabled it, but those sort of warning don't stop people needing help if their devices break
08:16:03 <abr> The impression I got about the experimental stream was a looser set of harbour rules that you'd have to explicitly allow to see those apps. But they'd still be in the store rather than an additional repo
08:16:48 <flypig> Right; the store angle is a bit different, because the store needs screenshots, descriptions, etc. which aren't in the repo.
08:17:32 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla
08:17:41 <Thaodan> Sorry a little late
08:17:46 <abr> I think that's probably the furthest this sort of thing can go to be a built-in option on device
08:18:18 <thilo[m]> if i think about apps that already use the mpris api, an additional stream in the store would be an improvement. in some cases the risk for the system shouldnt be high.
08:19:47 <thilo[m]> maybe a different space for apps that use beta apis
08:20:53 <flypig> I think when we discussed this in the past, it was concluded that people will have higher expectations of anything that goes in the store; and OpenRepos is already a good solution for experimental stuff.
08:20:56 <sledges> if there was an opt-in switch somewhere deep in the settings, it would be an extra step to enable it, so alternatively an extra step can just as well be installing openrepos client with chum enabled -> no jolla's involvment
08:21:12 <sledges> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/openrepos-and-chum-integration/7578
08:22:49 <thilo[m]> i was specifically thinking about apis that are already in development but not yet released. so a set of upcoming store restrictions. just an idea tho, do not see much benefit over openrepos
08:23:07 <Thaodan> A store is a little different the community repo essentially allows apps to work normal packages being rebuild every time instead of blobs that are rebuild on demand. I think chum is kinda like commmunity contrib repo that was tried years ago.
08:23:21 <abr> enabling the repo still means you need a UI to install the actual packages
08:24:15 <Thaodan> Chum could be a testbed for new dependencies and APIs to be tested before they are allowed as stable  apis.
08:25:29 <flypig> Thaodan, isn't that essentially what it already is (or at least, it can be used that way already)?
08:25:29 <Thaodan> Harbour apps could be rebuild in a similar way avoiding issues when there are so version bumps.
08:26:10 <Thaodan> flypig: Community contrib was more official.
08:26:32 <flypig> Ah, yeah, okay. So you mean with an official switch. Understood.
08:27:37 <sledges> and time's up:)
08:27:48 <Thaodan> If there a chum category in Jolla store with a disclamation that they repo is not maintained by Jolla but the apps are installed and build fine we can get the best of both. Less issues, more tests and apps for all.
08:28:15 <flypig> I wonder if we answered ApB's question.. :/
08:28:31 <abr> Well at least now he can refine it for next time
08:28:41 <flypig> Indeed :)
08:28:45 <sledges> Jolla store needs screenshots and descriptions in addition to just a chum repo
08:29:04 <sledges> and who is going to test next release updates with chum enabled?
08:29:10 <abr> even storeman needs stuff like that
08:29:38 <Thaodan> sledges: They can be provided by appstream meta data just as harbour apps can
08:29:48 <sledges> they can, currently they're not
08:30:03 <sledges> but more important is to vet risks of breakages
08:30:44 <sledges> which was raised in Jolla's answer above
08:30:56 <thilo[m]> if you ever feel the need to do beta tests for new apis, this would be an idea ;)
08:31:30 <thilo[m]> /beta/public beta/
08:31:33 <flypig> It's an interesting idea, no doubt.
08:31:35 <sledges> restricting chum (or sub-chum category) to only beta API apps is certainly a less risky constraint
08:31:35 <ViGe> I would really like an openrepos/chum client which would just install the packages without adding any repositories. Well, I kind of have, it's called sailfish-browswer, but I think there could be a better one...
08:31:59 <sledges> ViGe: how about updating them?
08:32:36 <flypig> Like a UI/client for chum, where everything is in a single repo?
08:32:51 <Thaodan> sledges: a major issue was repos replacing system packages. If chum is in jolla store this is avoided since we control disabling chum before upgrading.
08:32:54 <ViGe> sledges: Yeah, updating is indeed one usecase which should be handled by the client. It's quite inconvenient to do that using the browser.
08:33:30 <flypig> ViGe, what is it that you dislike about adding the repos?
08:33:30 <Thaodan> Browser is hardly a way to install packages.
08:33:32 <sledges> Thaodan: wasn't there any repo isolation already happening? cc abr
08:34:16 <sledges> or it has become "uninstall these offending packages, or else.." :)
08:34:19 <ViGe> flypig: I dislike the fact that the repos contain packages which I don't want to install. And as long as the repos are enabled, it's always possible that those packages creep into my device by accident.
08:34:45 <abr> yeah in the store client upgrade, but I think version --dup doesn't do it
08:34:53 <flypig> Okay, I see. If it were one-package-per-repo then that would be okay?
08:34:54 <Thaodan> Personally I would like closer collaboration, a second app doesn't really help.
08:35:22 <ViGe> flypig: yeah, but one repo per package feels like a bit too much overhead
08:35:29 <abr> isn't that how the store repo works? you only see packages you've enabled in the store client?
08:35:59 <flypig> Interesting, I didn't know that.
08:36:18 <Thaodan> ViGe: well a repo can contain packages all it wants your fear is replacing of packages which doesn't happen with cum from what I see
08:37:23 <Thaodan> If someone is scared what is installed when a package is installed he should use a client that shows the packages being installed or replaced before the action is taken.
08:37:36 <ViGe> abr: It sure looks like that. How is that implemented?
08:38:40 <abr> ViGe: I've absolutely no idea how any of the store backend works sorry :)
08:39:14 <abr> but that's just what i've observed
08:39:15 <ViGe> abr: yeah, there's a lot of black magic going on in there :(
08:39:16 <thilo[m]> i would welcome something between openrepos and official store in terms of restrictions. openrepos packages do not always feel very safe ;) a unified user experience would be bonus
08:39:30 <sledges> chum is built from oss
08:40:18 <sledges> and that's what the above link is about, to integrate chum to openrepos/storeman
08:40:45 <sledges> we're nearly twice overtime, any other burning issues?;)
08:41:37 <sledges> silence means consent, spill out to gen. diss. if anything still crops up :)
08:41:40 <sledges> #topic General discussion (30 min)
08:42:11 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:42:18 <dcaliste> I'm sorry to be late.
08:42:25 <sledges> o/
08:42:42 <sledges> any reactions to the contributable https://docs.sailfishos.org ? :)
08:43:05 <meegouser> sledges: I asked you quite some time ago about Rostelecom's plans regarding 3G deactivation/sunset, are there news/feedback to be shared?
08:43:05 <thilo[m]> just saw it yesterday, still to hop in
08:43:06 <sledges> #link https://docs.sailfishos.org
08:43:09 <sledges> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/docs.sailfishos.org/#readme
08:43:13 <thilo[m]> but good idea
08:43:45 <sledges> meegouser: there have also been equivalent follow-up questions on VoLTE ;)
08:43:53 <dcaliste> ViGe, since you're already having specific customisation packages for parteners (or at least it was the case some years ago), like packages for Jala customisation… Could there be a community package that enable officially a community repo ? Repo that would be hosted officially by Jolla ?
08:44:31 <dcaliste> sledges: docs.sailfishos.org on public github is a _great_ thing \o/
08:44:35 <sledges> \o/
08:44:40 <sledges> thanks indeed
08:45:02 <flypig> I know I'm not totally unbiased, but I agree :)
08:45:05 <meegouser> sledges: questions yes, but no answers as far as i know..
08:45:26 <ViGe> dcaliste: I don't really see that happening :/
08:45:35 <sledges> meegouser: it's in the works but nothing to announce
08:45:58 <dcaliste> That's really something about community inclusion. Very nice. I guess slowly people will add PRs. After all, disgesting all the repo will take a bit of time !
08:46:22 <meegouser> sledges: last time i was here, i also asked about the dreaded Tablet refunds, since CEO announced Jolla to have been profitable.. are those refunds finally cleared then?
08:46:42 <sledges> see a typo -> scroll to bottom -> Edit this page in GitHub -> click "edit" button -> fix -> PR -> ... -> profit :) (and all done via browser:)
08:46:54 <dcaliste> ViGe, that would though allow to put GPLv3 there and be sure that it does not propagate to business customers devices since on a totally different repo that is not available on their device.
08:47:08 <sledges> meegouser: you would have to ask Jolla directly via support/care email
08:47:16 <Thaodan> I like dcaliste's idea but I see the potential issues with them.
08:47:21 <thilo[m]> just to tease: I was brought to you today by a native matrix client with persistent storage which will be released soon (tm). Off to work now, thanks everyone.
08:47:44 <flypig> thilo[m], not one of the existing public clients?
08:48:02 <sledges> thilo[m]: woo!
08:48:05 <Thaodan> We already have ad least two I would say
08:48:41 <sledges> with persistent storage?
08:48:44 <flypig> I was testing Sailtrix over the weekend and it's improved massively.
08:48:48 <meegouser> sledges: well, it's not like I care about it personally, but announcing it publicly should be in Jolla's own interest, doesn't it? Especially since it had become some kind of running joke, in comments, tweets and such
08:49:02 <sledges> meegouser: my answer stands:)
08:49:12 <thilo[m]> im cheating a bit, its just a packaged hydrogen, but its working really nice
08:49:16 <Nico> The new docs page is really cool, btw. Exactly what I wanted for a while!
08:49:21 <sledges> yay!
08:49:56 <flypig> thilo[m], nice; When will you release it?
08:50:04 <meegouser> sledges: alright.
08:50:32 <thilo[m]> weekend probably. depends on my mood to spend time at work ;)
08:51:08 <flypig> Okay, good luck, look forward to seeing it :)
08:51:20 <sledges> #info <thilo[m]> just to tease: I was brought to you today by a native matrix client with persistent storage which will be released soon (tm)
08:51:20 <thilo[m]> :)
08:51:39 <dcaliste> Thaodan, for discussion matter, what do you see as issues in that scheme ?
08:53:03 <Thaodan> dcaliste: business people and lawyers
08:53:20 <dcaliste> Thaodan, ah I see :/
08:55:22 <sledges> anything that grinds your gears with 4.3.0 ?
08:55:54 <meegouser> sledges: has the legal matter of "transferral/selling of bought Sailfish X licenses" been discussed before (forbidding it, like it is right now, afaik, violating German law for sure, and European law probably too), or should I make it a point on the agenda for next time?
08:56:48 <Nico> I still didn't have time to fix the browser UI to my liking and I seem to be sometimes losing connection for different reasons than before now, but apart from that 4.3.0 was pretty great :3
08:57:51 <Thaodan> I like to get community working closer and don't see any issue with that since its like putting those kind of patterns into community contrib with community customizations enabled. The offside is that there's no support but people will complain about issues. Increasing customization that comes now days from community side will create that any way, better structure will make those issues hit softer IMHO.
08:59:27 <sledges> meegouser: please create a topic for next meeting, because IANAL:)
08:59:43 <meegouser> ianal sounds kinda dirty
09:00:08 <meegouser> had to look it up :)
09:00:14 <sledges> some typos made today also sounded off, but i kept it cool :P
09:00:45 <sledges> Nico: how did your return the close tab on browser PR go?
09:00:52 <meegouser> "cum" instead of chum made me chuckle a bit, not gonna lie
09:01:02 <sledges> well, let's keep this chat clean please
09:01:36 <Thaodan> No PG13 community meetings :D
09:01:39 <Nico> sledges: It got some mixed feedback and I think I am going to solve the issue differently, but I didn't have time for it yet. :D
09:01:51 <sledges> i'm glad it's not stalled!
09:01:54 <meegouser> sledges: I'm not the culprit here
09:02:14 <Nico> Well, it is stalled, but... about 80% because of me :3
09:02:29 <sledges> as in, it's not in a dead-end
09:02:42 <Nico> That I do not know yet
09:03:10 <Nico> Some of the feedback sounded like I should just keep it as a personal patch, but it could also just have been a language issue :D
09:04:15 <sledges> the number of <3 reactions to your PR certainly shouldn't leave it as personal patch:)
09:04:41 <sledges> i think browser went towards firefox-on-android UI, there's no immed. accessible close-tab button there too atm
09:04:58 <sledges> but if you can still pull off de-modal-ising the pop-out menu, it'd be awesome
09:05:14 <Nico> I think I am going to have a much better solution, that will make everyone happy and that builds on the improvements in 4.3 :3
09:05:36 <flypig> For ref, we're talking about this? https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/pull/905
09:05:49 <Nico> YYes
09:06:25 <sledges> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/pull/905
09:06:38 <sledges> 5 min left
09:07:03 <flypig> I'm very curious to see your new solution Nico.
09:07:39 <Nico> I just finished most releases of other software, so I have a bit more time now to look at sailfish stuff again :D
09:08:10 <Nico> (Spent most of my time lately fighting with libzxing not parsing my covid QR codes...)
09:09:30 <flypig> A special format of QR code?
09:09:55 <Nico> No, normal QR codes, libzxing just doesn't like mine and my dads for some reason
09:10:06 <ExTechOp> SFOS for Xperia 10 III yet available?
09:10:15 <flypig> Strange :/ libzxing is usually pretty good.
09:10:34 <sledges> ExTechOp: you can help building it, it's in that stage now
09:10:45 <Nico> zbar worked for me, after I did this: https://github.com/monich/sailfish-barcode/pull/31
09:11:06 <ExTechOp> sledges I'll need to get the hardware first :-/
09:11:16 <sledges> minor detail, but helps:)
09:11:34 <sledges> time to wrap up this one!
09:11:37 <Nico> It is pretty strange, it always tried to scan it as a barcode instead, after wriggling about for like 5 minutes. zbar just scans it immediately and correctly
09:11:37 <sledges> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:11:45 <sledges> Proposing Thursday 9th December at 8am UTC
09:11:48 <sledges> last meeting of 2021
09:12:01 <flypig> Nico, that is strange indeed, but nice that you tried zbar.
09:12:17 <sledges> as there won't be many sailors on the eve of xmas eve:)
09:12:33 <Nico> Maybe I'll make a covid pass app out of it, sounds like it would be helpful for some people :D
09:13:09 <sledges> all aboard for the 9th Dec? ;)
09:13:13 <flypig> 9th LGTM :)
09:13:17 <Thaodan> m2
09:13:24 <ExTechOp> Works for me
09:13:38 <flypig> Nico, can you get the certs needed from a server for a covid pass app?
09:13:47 <sledges> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th December 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2021-12-09T08Z
09:14:06 <sledges> thanks y'all!
09:14:08 <sledges> #endmeeting