07:00:32 <flypig> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 13th October 2022
07:00:32 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 13 07:00:32 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
07:00:32 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
07:00:39 <flypig> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
07:00:43 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-13th-october-2022/13107
07:00:48 <flypig> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings, look after yourselves, and each other.
07:01:05 <flypig> (that's from Jerry Springer)
07:01:08 <flypig> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
07:01:32 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ jolla and chairperson
07:02:03 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla
07:02:13 <abr> #info Andrew Branson - sailor
07:02:13 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä - community
07:02:36 <fridl> #info fridlmue - community
07:03:26 <flypig> Good that you're here for your question ExTechOp. Does anyone know whether PeegeeTips will join us today?
07:03:36 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
07:03:52 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
07:06:04 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla
07:06:12 <pherjung> #info pherjung, community
07:06:40 <flypig> Thanks everyone for joining us and making yourselves known. We've got a nice balance today :)
07:07:10 <flypig> Since PeegeeTips isn't here, let's switch the questions around in case they're able to join a little later.
07:07:20 <flypig> #topic Future plans for SFOS hardware (5 minutes -- asked by ExTechOp)
07:07:39 <flypig> #info <ExTechOp> I am well aware that SFOS for the Xperia 10 III came available only fairly recently, and I am definitely **not** trying to whip the Jolla developers into a death march.
07:08:05 <flypig> #info <ExTechOp> However, numerous Xperia series devices (including the Xperia 10 IV) are currently available for bootloader unlocking at Sony Open Devices.
07:08:12 <flypig> #link https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/get-started/unlock-bootloader/
07:08:24 <flypig> #info <ExTechOp> Are there plans for ports, are hardware platforms other than Sony being considered? Can a brief summary and/or a coarse time scale be revealed?
07:09:04 <flypig> Thanks for your question ExTechOp. It was a little close to the meeting, but I got an answer, and one that I think would be the same if we delayed until the next meeting.
07:09:13 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Currently we don't have any updates to share on potential upcoming ports.
07:09:40 <flypig> That's the full answer at this point ExTechOp. Sorry that I can't share more with you.
07:10:45 <ExTechOp> Thanks for pushing my question through, it's a bit of a shame you cannot share anything more.
07:11:27 <flypig> Yes, but I hope not too unexpected. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to hear your and others' opinions about the device space.
07:11:31 <Thaodan> Xperia 10 IV port is still work in progress on Sony's side.
07:12:00 <Thaodan> #info Xperia 10 IV port is still work in progress on Sony's side.
07:12:01 <Thaodan> #link https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/bug_tracker/#supported-devices
07:12:24 <flypig> Thaodan, could you elaborate on what "work in progress" means?
07:13:29 <Thaodan> Unfinished, early porting stage.
07:13:50 <flypig> And specifically their AOSP release?
07:13:57 <ExTechOp> Since the 10 III has had some issues on the Sony-supplied software side, do you give, and do they accept feedback on that? Are updates to that expected from Sony, and does SFOS a way to apply them?
07:14:18 <pherjung> By the way, there is this issue https://github.com/sailfishos/docs.sailfishos.org/issues/75 where we can list ported devices
07:14:39 <Thaodan> Were we not talking about Sony-AOSP?
07:15:01 <flypig> Thaodan, yes, I'm just clarifying.
07:15:05 <Thaodan> Sony != Sony AOSP, the Android versions are unrelated.
07:15:34 <Thaodan> Xperia 1 III would be the same base and is not wip. It would be a good base to start porting for Xperia 10 IV.
07:16:17 <flypig> Thanks for that useful link pherjung.
07:16:22 <flypig> #info <pherjung> By the way, there is this issue where we can list ported devices
07:16:28 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/docs.sailfishos.org/issues/75
07:17:40 <flypig> Is anyone able to answer ExTechOp's query? I don't feel competent to give an accurate answer.
07:18:33 <Thaodan> Yes we regularly apply updates from Sony's side or contribute updates back to Sony such as kernel updates.
07:19:00 <flypig> 1 more min on this topic.
07:19:03 <Thaodan> Or audio fixes thanks to sledges and Jusa's work.
07:19:15 <Thaodan> I could go for hours probably.
07:19:27 <flypig> Thanks Thaodan, that's useful... but please don't ;)
07:19:38 <ExTechOp> In the case of 10 III, there are two Sony bug issues, networking and cameras. Any updates expected on these?
07:19:38 <Thaodan> Yes we accept feedback on that process in any case.
07:20:08 <Thaodan> Some issues like those related to blobs are some that we can't do much about.
07:20:46 <flypig> I think cameras we are in a position to work on as a community, it's not blob related.
07:21:13 <ExTechOp> Yes, by switching over to a non-buggy software interface, if I understood correctly?
07:21:13 <Thaodan> Yes we can try help on these things too.
07:21:22 <flypig> ExTechOp, exactly.
07:21:32 <Thaodan> Yes if possible.
07:21:53 <flypig> I'm going to have to move us on, but we can return to it in the general discussion.
07:21:57 <ExTechOp> This is kinda what I was trying to ask, the Sony binary blob type software doesn't get feedback or updates?
07:22:28 <Thaodan> It does please look at the sony bugtracker as linked above.
07:22:39 <Thaodan> But yeah let's move on.
07:22:44 <flypig> ExTechOp, it's a good question, please hold that thought, we can return to it.
07:22:45 <flypig> #topic Request an update from Jolla of any work work underway to improve general mobile-data compatibility for the 10iii with mobile network operators. (10 minutes -- asked by PeegeeTips)
07:23:02 <flypig> #info <PeegeeTips> Reading the forum on a regular basis i get the subjective sense that since the release of the 10iii support there has been a significant number of bug threads from new 10iii users reporting problems accessing mobile data from their mobile operator supplied sim.
07:23:13 <flypig> #info <PeegeeTips> By 'significant' I mean more than I am used to seeing in recent years for other new hardware releases like the 10ii.
07:23:22 <flypig> #info <PeegeeTips> What I would like is a comment from Jolla on whether they recognise a general compatibility problem that has resulted in a significant number of edge-cases where people have had problems with [their] mobile operator.
07:23:35 <flypig> #info <PeegeeTips> And in addition, if there is a problem with more edge-case compatibility problems; how this is being addressed in upcoming releases like SFOS 4.5?
07:23:59 <flypig> That's the question. It's a shame PeegeeTips isn't able to join today, but here's the prepared answer.
07:24:05 <flypig> #info <Jolla> There were significant changes made to the telephony stack in recent releases.
07:24:11 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We continue to work to bring VoLTE support out of beta and to improve connectivity reliability overall. There were two telephony bugs fixed in the release and there are more in the pipeline.
07:24:22 <flypig> #link https://github.com/mer-hybris/ofono-binder-plugin/pull/17
07:24:26 <flypig> #link https://github.com/mer-hybris/ofono-binder-plugin/pull/18
07:24:31 <flypig> #info <Jolla> This is part of a continual process. We touched on earlier fixes in your previous related question.
07:24:37 <flypig> #link https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2022/sailfishos-meeting.2022-08-18-07.00.html
07:24:46 <flypig> #info <Jolla> PeegeeTips, we're aware that you're experiencing a particular issue with Talkmobile in the UK. Unfortunately we've not been able to get to the bottom of it, but hope we can work with you on it.
07:24:56 <flypig> #info <Jolla> For anyone else wanting to help diagnose issues, please see this Zendesk article for how to collect oFono logs.
07:25:03 <flypig> #link https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203294343-How-to-collect-oFono-logs
07:25:14 <flypig> That's the prepared answer.
07:25:49 <flypig> We have some time on this, but has anyone else experienced related issues?
07:29:42 <flypig> If PeegeeTips isn't here, and no one has other points to add we can move on early. I'll give it 2 more mins just in case.
07:31:48 <flypig> Alright, if silence means others haven't experienced these issues, then that's a good thing. Time to move on.
07:31:52 <flypig> #topic Open PR discussion (10 min -- asked by jolla)
07:31:56 <flypig> #info <jolla> We didn't have any PRs raised in advance of the meeting. Feel free to raise any now if you'd like to discuss them.
07:36:15 <flypig> It seems there are no pressing to raise here; that's good I think. I'll give it 1 more min just in case.
07:37:28 <flypig> Okay, moving on...
07:37:30 <flypig> #topic Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung)
07:37:44 <flypig> #info <jolla> The Community Bug Coordination Team have done a superb job once again this fortnight.
07:37:50 <flypig> #info <Jolla> As a result of their work, we now have:
07:37:53 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 6 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".
07:37:57 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 2 bug reports tagged as "fixed".
07:38:00 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 2 marked as duplicates and closed.
07:38:03 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 2 closed as being unrelated to Sailfish OS.
07:38:16 <flypig> On top of that, there is the new Bugger! tool which I see being increasingly used.
07:38:54 <flypig> Since we have representatives of the Bug Coordination Team here, would you mind giving a quick update on how you see the State of the Bug Union?
07:40:19 <flypig> pherjung, thilo[m]?
07:40:20 <thilo[m]> Bug reports increased in quality recently, thats nice to see
07:40:52 <thilo[m]> Bugger and the better description in the template helped a lot, i think
07:41:08 <flypig> That is indeed good, and a credit to your efforts as well.
07:41:33 <thilo[m]> What i am missing is a larger cheatsheet for basic diagnosing
07:42:14 <flypig> You mean, things that a user should do before posting a bug, or info to collect to accompany a bug?
07:42:26 <flypig> Collecting logs, that kind of thing?
07:42:42 <thilo[m]> Working on it tho. But i/we spend considerable time trying to remember where again those logs were to find ;) thus help on my forum wiki post regarding debugging is appreciated ;)
07:42:54 <thilo[m]> Logs etc
07:43:03 <flypig> Could you share a link please?
07:43:28 <thilo[m]> https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/wiki-collecting-debug-information/12751
07:43:56 <flypig> #info <thilo[m]> i/we spend considerable time trying to remember where again those logs were to find ;) thus help on my forum wiki post regarding debugging is appreciated ;)
07:44:01 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/wiki-collecting-debug-information/12751
07:44:25 <flypig> It's shaping up to be a nice resource.
07:46:03 <flypig> Thanks for the summary thilo[m], and great work as always. Anything else to add on this topic?
07:46:17 <thilo[m]> No :)
07:46:31 <flypig> Okay, thanks again, let's open things out to General Discussion then.
07:46:33 <flypig> #topic General discussion (20 min)
07:46:36 <Thaodan> Just thanks for the awesome work they provide.
07:47:01 <flypig> Yes, seconded Thaodan.
07:47:09 <abr> thirded!
07:47:37 <sledges> +4
07:48:24 <flypig> There is much appreciation amongst the sailors :)
07:48:51 <ExTechOp> I'd like to bring up again network switching, which has always been a pain specially for Android applications running under SFOS. I know people that for this reason just don't use wifi on SFOS, at all. Are long-term solutions for this problem being worked on?
07:48:56 <thilo[m]> Thanks on behalf of the others as well :)
07:51:31 <flypig> ExTechOp, this is a good question, and useful feedback about people not using wifi. Can anyone shed some light on this?
07:52:50 <fridl> I can, I do not use WiFi on my 10 II, as most of the time after some hours and network switches, the Android apps lose connection. Sometimes also the sailfish apps start to get trouble. Therefore I activate WiFi most often only for SFOS updates.
07:53:48 <fridl> I know, that I can restart the services helps often, but still i the time between i miss notifications from android apps etc.
07:56:25 <flypig> Thanks fridl and sorry if it causes you trouble.
07:57:26 <fridl> My data plan has enough reserves ;-P
07:57:46 <fridl> But it would be so great to get that sorted out at some point.
07:57:46 <ExTechOp> But the main thing is, are the SFOS developers aware how much pain this issue causes people? I have Settings/System Utilities/Network restart always open to fix problems, occasionally even that isn't enough.
07:58:21 <abr> yeah, we get the same issues :)
07:58:22 <fridl> ExTechOp: That is true. I would, indeed, love to use wifi and start to also watch sometimes videos etc. on my phone.
07:58:23 <ExTechOp> Do we have any idea how Android does this, apparently at least a bit more gracefully?
07:58:54 <abr> there are quite a few fixes for it coming in the next release that haven't been able to go out with the 4.4.0 bumps
07:59:12 <ExTechOp> abr That's good to hear!
07:59:33 <abr> but there's no real single big fix can be done. we're mapping state between sfos and android, so it's a load of corner cases that need to be picked off one by one
07:59:44 <abr> it's a lot better now in devel than it was, but still not perfect
08:00:07 <abr> i leave wifi on until i get an issue right now anyway
08:02:32 <flypig> Thanks abr, that's a really helpful addition.
08:02:34 <thilo[m]> i think its good for the empathy of the community to hear that the devs actually use the devices and live through the same frustration :)
08:03:20 <abr> contrary to some opinions i've seen, the vast majority of sailors use sfos on their daily devices.
08:03:42 <Thaodan> Just some use less or more time with AAS.
08:03:47 <abr> those who don't have to be a bit secretive about it or else they get distainful looks
08:03:55 <thilo[m]> maybe you should do a feature where that becomes more clear to the community
08:03:57 <Thaodan> For my self I mostly only use it for banking apps.
08:03:58 <abr> disdainful!
08:05:11 <flypig> I definitely think abr is right. We experience the same things as the community because we're using Sailfish OS all the time.
08:05:36 <abr> the only difference is that we're on the latest code. for better and definitely for worse.
08:05:37 <ExTechOp> "Eat your own dog food" or if you're feeling a bit more morbid, "drinking the Kool-Aid" :-D
08:06:00 <fridl> with the pros and cons to the dev / cbeta access, so no waiting for the releases...
08:06:06 <thilo[m]> :D
08:06:08 <flypig> ExTechOp, yeah, a bit of both ;)
08:06:34 <thilo[m]> yeah i definatley know the pleasures and frustrations of using your own products
08:06:56 <flypig> Just 2 more mins before we wrap up.
08:07:03 <thilo[m]> maybe you could talk a bit about that in an interview section in a community news @flypig?
08:07:30 <flypig> thilo[m], it's a really great idea. Let's see what can be done :)
08:07:37 <ViGe> Pros of using your own product: If there's an issue, you can fix it. Cons of using your own product: If there's an issue you have to fix it.
08:07:47 <thilo[m]> that would be interesting, maybe sailors tell how it is to be on dev devices and how they get around with sfos, and what fixes make it into the os because they have certain struggles in real live, etc...
08:08:04 <Thaodan> ViGe: That hits hard because it's true..
08:08:07 <thilo[m]> ViGe: exactly....
08:08:16 <flypig> ViGe, haha :)
08:08:35 <thilo[m]> the problem is, that you also experience that in your free time i imagine
08:08:49 <thilo[m]> saturday night at 11 when your code doesnt work... yet again
08:08:58 <flypig> I wanted to do a regular feature on the apps sailors use on their devices. We did do a games section like that.
08:09:42 <thilo[m]> oh nice, that sounds cool. The stuff you come up with is really cool always flypig :)
08:10:06 <flypig> Thanks thilo[m] :)
08:10:09 <flypig> ExTechOp, fridl, since you raised this topic of Android connectivity, perhaps you could bring it up again after the next release to share your experiences again?
08:11:06 <fridl> flypig: I can do that. Hope to remind it (and remind to turn wifi on again ;-P )
08:11:17 <flypig> Great, thanks fridl :)
08:11:29 <flypig> Time is up I'm afraid. Thank you everyone for the really nice discussion here.
08:11:40 <flypig> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
08:11:44 <flypig> Proposing Thursday 27th October at 07:00am UTC
08:11:45 <ExTechOp> When I visited last year for the Christmas party, and first saw the 10 III demo device, there was Signal on it. Moving Signal over to another device is a bit tricky, as the wifi method doesn't work with SFOS, and also accessing removable devices is a bit wonky. Is there anything that can be done about this?
08:12:29 <flypig> Hmmm. Sorry ExTechOp, I was too hasty.
08:12:52 <ExTechOp> 27th works 4 me.
08:13:13 <flypig> It's still before the clocks change, so no time change just yet.
08:13:22 <abr> last one though!
08:13:27 <flypig> Indeed :)
08:13:42 <flypig> Alright, 27th it is.
08:13:43 <flypig> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 27th October 2022 at 07:00am UTC: 2022-10-27T0700Z
08:13:46 <Thaodan> Just use utc for the calendar events no time change needed.
08:14:18 <flypig> Thaodan, we do use UTC, but we actually want the meeting to stay at 10:00 Finnish time.
08:14:49 <flypig> Anyway, have to wrap it up. Sorry for cutting off the discussion, but hope we can pick it up again!
08:14:54 <flypig> #endmeeting