08:00:52 <flypig> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 12th January 2023
08:00:52 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 12 08:00:52 2023 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:52 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:01:02 <flypig> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:01:05 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-12th-january-2023/13729
08:01:12 <flypig> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. It is after all the thought that counts.
08:01:19 <flypig> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:01:24 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
08:01:29 <pherjung[m]> #info pherjung, community
08:01:38 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela, sailor @ Jolla
08:01:53 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
08:01:59 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ Jolla & chair
08:02:32 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar, sailor @ Jolla
08:02:34 <ExPLIT[m]1> Pawel Radomychelski, ExPLIT. Community
08:03:02 <flypig> While everyone is introducing themselves, we were hoping to switch the questions around so we have background services first, VoWIFI second. Would anyone object?
08:03:24 <flypig> ExPLIT[m]1, would you mind sticking a #info in from of your message so it goes in the minutes please?
08:03:29 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:04:01 <ExPLIT[m]1> * #info Pawel Radomychelski,
08:04:13 <ExPLIT[m]1> flypig: Changed, thanks
08:04:23 <flypig> Thanks!
08:04:38 <Thaodan> I'm not sure if it works with * prefix.
08:06:43 <flypig> Hmm. Yes, probably not. ExPLIT[m]1, if you could post again, with the #info at the start, that'd be appreciated.
08:07:24 <sebix[m]> #info Sebix, Community
08:07:41 <flypig> Anyhow, happy new year everyone, nice to see so many people joining today. Let's start with our first question.
08:07:52 <flypig> #topic Background services and unified push (10 mins -- asked by thigg)
08:08:03 <flypig> #info <thigg> E.g. native messaging apps are not very convenient to use on Sailfish OS because they do not run in the background.
08:08:06 <ExPLIT[m]1> #info Pawel Radomychelski (ExPLIT), community member
08:08:17 <flypig> #info <thigg> 1) are there any advances made towards supporting background services in Sailfish OS?
08:08:25 <flypig> #info <thigg> Is this just a Harbour problem or are we lacking infrastructure in the OS, or are we lacking concepts or is it just not used very much?
08:08:34 <flypig> #info <thigg> 2) Are there plans for something like a unified push client that could be used to wake up apps in background? (or maybe just send a notification for now?)
08:08:47 <flypig> That's the question, here's our prepared answer.
08:08:52 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Background services are already possible in apps on Sailfish, but not allowed in Harbour. We've looked internally into allowing them in Harbour many times in the past, because we know how useful this functionality is for developers.
08:09:07 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Background services are easier to support than unified push, and don't have the same privacy concerns, so are likely to be come first.
08:09:25 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Unfortunately on each occasion we've looked at it, we've concluded we don't yet have the right mechanisms to constrain services to avoid impacting performance or security. We would still love to support them though.
08:09:38 <flypig> #info <Jolla> As a first step we would need automated screening of service files using rpmvalidator to ensure services are sandboxed to the same level as the associated app, and to allow sandbox compliant DBus communication between service and app.
08:09:50 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Updating systemd would allow us enforce stricter resource limits, e.g. for idle execution.
08:09:57 <flypig> #info <Jolla> To progress this further, we welcome use-cases from the community, contributions to rpmvalidator and support updating systemd.
08:10:02 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/sdk-harbour-rpmvalidator
08:10:06 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/systemd
08:10:33 <flypig> That's the answer. It looks like thigg isn't around this morning unfortunately.
08:11:12 <flypig> ViGe, this falls under your area, would you have anything to add?
08:12:52 <Thaodan> Background services mostly work as is right now. Push services are in some way against the design of Sailfish OS apps that are running are visible if they are not visible they should stop acting. For some use-cases background services are essential e.g. companion apps for bluetooth hardware.
08:13:02 <ViGe> Not really, I think the prepared answer has the important things mentioned
08:13:34 <flypig> Is the systemd update a big change?
08:13:41 <ViGe> Yes, it is
08:14:01 <Thaodan> The updating itself not really but the testing.
08:14:12 <ViGe> But we don't need systemd update in the beginning
08:14:47 <Thaodan> It also marks the end of life for some devices with old kernels, e.g. everything before linux 4.4.0.
08:14:58 <flypig> So this could be a staged process? rpmvalidator/Harbour changes first, followed by systemd changes and improved resource management later?
08:15:10 <ViGe> flypig: exactly
08:15:38 <flypig> Thaodan, which devices would that EoL?
08:16:04 <flypig> My kernal <-> device mapping is hazy ;)
08:16:18 <Thaodan> I agree but before the systemd/sandbox changes the review for used background services need to be more in debt.
08:17:17 <Thaodan> flypig: Some commmunity ports, Xperia X. Some devices like the Xperia XA2 use a to told kernel to get all the new features from the kernel update.
08:17:20 <sebix[m]> Thaodan: Which devices are affected by that step? XA2 has 4.4.0.68
08:18:02 <ViGe> So we would first need to decide how we start the background services, and then we need to write rpm validator rules to check that the service files follow the rules. Actually that doesn't sound that much work in itself. But indeed we need to think about the sandboxing rules etc. first.
08:18:03 <flypig> So, it wouldn't EoL the XA2, it just wouldn't benefit from all the changes, if I'm understanding correctly.
08:18:48 <Thaodan> ViGe: Sandboxing is also more restricted without unified cgroups.
08:18:56 <Thaodan> flypig: yes
08:19:19 <flypig> Thanks ViGe. It sounds like there's pretty much a plan, but no timeline.
08:20:16 <ViGe> It indeed sounds like that
08:20:58 <flypig> Okay :) If there are no other comments, then we should move on to the next question. Anything to add to the minutes on this?
08:21:57 <Thaodan> All changes could be done by community, we just need write up the needed bugs and processes. https://bugs.merproject.org/ would be perfect for that  we just need to have something like it for Sailfish OS.
08:23:25 <flypig> In lieu of a public bug tracker, putting it in a forum post might be useful/of interest to the community. We can look into that.
08:24:41 <flypig> Alright, let's move on to the next question and talk VoWIFI.
08:25:05 <flypig> #topic VoWIFI support (15 mins -- asked by inte)
08:25:21 <flypig> #info <inte> Most (if not all) mobile networks which have implemented VoLTE do also support VoWIFI, which is a very useful feature especially in areas with poor indoor coverage (but good WiFi reception) or to avoid roaming costs.
08:25:32 <flypig> #info <inte> Implementation would probably be easy at least for the Xperia 10ii/iii, as these phones already support VoLTE and the voice channel only needs to be routed through the Wifi interface instead of the LTE connection (hopefully).
08:25:52 <flypig> That's the question. Here's our prepared answer.
08:25:59 <flypig> #info <Jolla> This isn't something we've looked into in great detail and we don't expect to have any VoWifi support in the upcoming release.
08:26:05 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Unfortunately the implementation may not be as straightforward as it sounds, as not much from VoLTE could be used.
08:26:15 <flypig> #info <Jolla> When we get to looking into it properly, if there are good areas for community contribution, we'll certainly aim to publicise the fact.
08:27:14 <flypig> That's the prepared answer. Unfortunately I don't think we have inte here either this morning, but if anyone else has any comments/suggestions, please go ahead.
08:29:43 <flypig> I'll add that inte made some interesting observations on the forum about this: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/vowifi-support-in-sfos/12440
08:30:01 <flypig> Perhaps that's a place to have further discussion about this too.
08:30:29 <Thaodan> I think the rmnet_data2 interface was mentioned elsewhere earlier.
08:30:58 <flypig> Could you be more specific Thaodan?
08:31:52 <Thaodan> I don't know but I think it might have been when we worked on volte initially.
08:33:04 <flypig> I'm afraid that's not something I recall about personally.
08:35:07 <flypig> We still have 5 more mins on this topic, in case anyone has other points to make.
08:38:57 <flypig> One more minute, and then we'll move onto the bug reports. Anything further to add to the minutes on this topic?
08:40:06 <flypig> Okay, moving on then...
08:40:27 <flypig> Thanks for the question inte, hopefully the answer will be useful.
08:40:28 <flypig> #topic Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by pherjung)
08:40:33 <flypig> #info <pherjung> Untracked bug reports...
08:40:54 <flypig> This is our usual bug report summary. Thanks pherjung[m] for the (huge!) list this fortnight.
08:41:00 <flypig> Here are the stats:
08:41:02 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Thank you again for all of your work in checking and collating bug reports.
08:41:06 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Here are the results for this fortnight:
08:41:10 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 7 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".
08:41:14 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 4 bug reports tagged as "fixed".
08:41:18 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 4 marked as duplicates and closed.
08:41:24 <flypig> #info <Jolla> It wasn't possibl to go through the full list, but as please do provide them for the next meeting as you suggested.
08:41:37 <flypig> #undo
08:41:37 <sailbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x7f65de3356a0>
08:41:45 <flypig> #info <Jolla> It wasn't possible to go through the full list, but please do provide them for the next meeting as you suggested.
08:42:34 <flypig> pherjung[m], would you like to add anything?
08:43:19 <pherjung[m]> From the untracked list, have you forgot https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/zendesk-lists-outdated-way-to-access-common-android-settings/8745 ?
08:44:06 <flypig> Ah, well spotted. You're right, I didn't take any action on that one. I wanted to discuss it internally first.
08:44:47 <flypig> The article has been moved, but I didn't have time to figure out where to.
08:45:19 <flypig> pherjung[m], if it's okay, I'll reply on the topic later today?
08:45:25 <pherjung[m]> No problem, I'll provide it on next community meeting
08:45:49 <flypig> Great, thank you! Hopefully it'll be possible to resolve it by then, but if not, that would be great.
08:46:03 <pherjung[m]> there are no rush ;)
08:46:49 <flypig> Sure, but it's good to act while the iron is hot, I always think :)
08:47:21 <flypig> Anything else pherjung[m], or can we move to the next topic?
08:47:56 <pherjung[m]> It's all fine, we can move to the next topic
08:48:07 <flypig> Okay, moving on. Thanks for all of your work once again.
08:48:07 <pherjung[m]> oh just a question
08:48:10 <flypig> Sure.
08:48:27 <pherjung[m]> should I limit the amount of untagged/to close bugs report?
08:48:40 <ViGe> flypig: If it helps anything, the new article is at https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Help_Articles/Android_App_Support/Android_Application_Settings/
08:49:10 <flypig> Are, excellent, that does help, thank you ViGe. Do you know when the links will start redirecting correctly?
08:49:30 <flypig> s/Are/Ah/
08:49:39 <ViGe> As soon as someone fixes the redirect ;)
08:50:08 <flypig> pherjung[m], in practice, if there are more than 10 untagged, I run out of time, so if you can limit them to that, it makes my life easier.
08:50:52 <flypig> For the "to close" reports it's not such an issue, because they're usually more complex, so I just do the ones I can.
08:51:55 <flypig> So, although I was a bit shocked by the list of "to close" reports this time, now that I've been through the process, I think it works fine the way you did it.
08:52:18 <pherjung[m]> well, I had a lot of time to provide this list haha
08:52:33 <flypig> There was a big gap between meetings this time, true :)
08:53:27 <flypig> pherjung[m], this takes more time for you than it does for me. Doesn't that limit the number of "untagged" you can process?
08:54:16 <flypig> ViGe, thanks for clarifying, I thought maybe there was going to be a big push at some point :)
08:54:59 <pherjung[m]> It's quite straightforward on my side
08:55:01 <flypig> Alright, we will move on to the next topic on 1 min.
08:56:12 <flypig> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by jolla)
08:56:25 <flypig> #info <jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
08:56:46 <flypig> We didn't have any posted in advance, but anyone is welcome to raise any now.
09:00:11 <flypig> Okay, nothing for this meeting. Let's move on to general discussion.
09:00:16 <flypig> #topic General discussion (15 min)
09:00:38 <flypig> Any and all discussion welcome.
09:01:14 <ExTechOp> Any even speculative dates for next SFOS version release?
09:02:17 <flypig> I think the latest official statement was "We aim for a January release after community testing and final fixes based on feedback."
09:02:39 <flypig> And I *think* that still holds. Do any sailors here know otherwise?
09:03:08 <ViGe> flypig: To return to your earlier question about the redirect. It's fixed now :)
09:03:38 <flypig> Oh, great work, thank you ViGe!
09:04:33 <ViGe> Well, I didn't do it, I'm just a messenger
09:04:51 <flypig> Then please pass thanks on :)
09:05:10 <flypig> So now, on the original forum topic, if there are errors like the one dry1 discovered, submitting a PR is now the easiest way to get it fixed.
09:05:42 <jpwalden> well, you pointed it out Vige -thanks for that, I somehow missed that.. :)
09:06:28 <flypig> Thanks jpwalden for fixing the link. This makes it much easier to resolve the topic on the forum.
09:06:57 <jpwalden> sure, if you spot those just please let me know -thanks
09:07:36 <flypig> How much more is there to move over?
09:09:34 <ViGe> That's not as easy to answer as you might think
09:09:37 <ExTechOp> flypig If aiming for a January release, would this include the changes mentioned in the previous meetings, like how network switching works (mobile/wifi/mobile)?
09:10:03 <flypig> ViGe, fair enough :) It was only idle curiosity on my part anyway.
09:10:47 <jpwalden> flypig: Yes, as ViGe said, not that easy to say. Most of those have been moved and updated, however there are still some dozens maybe left, but not all of those are needed and some can be combined etc. anyways most of those have been moved
09:11:23 <flypig> ExTechOp, that would depend on the exact change, but there's a good chance. If you can be more specific (either here or ping me later) then I can check.
09:11:25 <ViGe> Yeah, at some point we will just decide that now we are done and the rest will not be moved.
09:11:55 <flypig> I can appreciate it's a huge amount of work. But the results look very good, to me at least.
09:12:24 <flypig> And it will help with keeping the info up-to-date given anyone can submit a PR to make changes.
09:13:13 <flypig> Unrelated question: is anyone from the community here planning to attend FOSDEM?
09:13:48 <Thaodan> Community Dinners 2023?
09:13:55 <ViGe> Indeed, it's really easy to make PRs to the documentation, you can do them right on the github UI
09:14:02 <Thaodan> I think we should start planing that.
09:14:36 <ExTechOp> flypig I wrote in 2022-10-13: I'd like to bring up again network switching, which has always been a pain specially for Android applications running under SFOS. I know people that for this reason just don't use wifi on SFOS, at all. Are long-term solutions for this problem being worked on?
09:14:54 <flypig> I'm going to minute that ViGe, because I think it's worth advertising widely :)
09:14:56 <ExTechOp> flypig and then the answer was, the development version is better in this respect
09:15:03 <flypig> #info <ViGe> "it's really easy to make PRs to the documentation, you can do them right on the github UI"
09:16:31 <flypig> Thanks for clarifying ExTechOp.
09:16:45 <flypig> ExTechOp, unless a change caused big problems (which I've not heard about in this case), then if it was in the development version in October, it should be in the upcoming release, yes.
09:16:58 <ExTechOp> Excellent!
09:17:13 <flypig> It would be good to get your feedback on it once you've been able to try it.
09:17:33 <flypig> Alright, our time is up folks.
09:17:37 <ExTechOp> I will certainly try to do it.
09:17:46 <flypig> Thanks ExTechOp :)
09:18:14 <flypig> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:18:18 <flypig> Proposing Thursday 2nd February at 08:00am UTC
09:18:22 <flypig> This is in *3 weeks* because I stupidly managed to get the newsletters and meetings in sync, and it's much better for me if they alternate. Would anyone object?
09:19:06 <ExTechOp> Works for me.
09:19:26 <flypig> Okay, great, thanks ExTechOp.
09:19:41 <Thaodan> Every 3 weeks or just this time?
09:19:53 <ExTechOp> If the next SFOS release happens in January, we'll have some time to get acquainted with it.
09:20:11 <flypig> Thaodan, good question. Just this time, so that the newsletter and meetings stay on alternate weeks. So it'll be every two weeks from then.
09:20:53 <flypig> ExTechOp, that's also true :) We'll be keen to hear the feedback at the meeting.
09:21:00 <Thaodan> ok sounds good. I might be nice if community could send in emails to submit articles to the newsletter if they want.
09:21:45 <flypig> Thaodan, you think we should set up a specific account for it? I'd be all for it. Most of them time people contact/post on the forum about it, but email works too.
09:22:11 <Thaodan> Why isn't the community newsletter in the blog? it would be good be able to read the news letter with rss.
09:22:30 <flypig> You can read it with RSS already if you like :)
09:22:33 <Thaodan> flypig: If we can submit emails to the forum we don't need an account.
09:23:29 <Thaodan> I don't think rss works right now.
09:23:44 <pherjung[m]> on my side it works fine
09:24:07 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/tag/community-news.rss
09:24:32 <Thaodan> ah the forum doesn't show the rss icon on my firefox addon.
09:25:22 <Thaodan> but thanks
09:25:23 <flypig> I think everything (lots of things?) in Discourse can be an RSS feed. I guess they don't put it in the meta info though.
09:25:24 <Thaodan> looks good
09:25:29 <ViGe> https://forum.sailfishos.org/c/community-news/25.rss should work as well
09:25:50 <ViGe> Yeah, you can just add ".rss" to pretty much any url on the forum
09:25:56 <Thaodan> flypig:  Yeah the meta is missing I think so too.
09:26:22 <sebix[m]> Thaodan: FF removed showing the feed icon some years ago. Now you need an add-on: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/feed-indicator/
09:27:00 <Thaodan> sebix[m]:  I'm using that or the improved version: https://github.com/nt1m/livemarks/
09:28:15 <flypig> We'd better wrap up, this topic has drifted off topic a bit :)
09:28:19 <flypig> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 2nd February 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2023-02-02T0800Z
09:28:45 <flypig> #endmeeting