08:01:21 <flypig> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 2nd February 2023
08:01:21 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 08:01:21 2023 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:01:21 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:01:30 <flypig> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:01:33 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-2nd-february-2023/14091
08:01:41 <flypig> Hello everyone! I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please r-e-s-p-e-c-t the timings and find out what it means to me.
08:02:07 <flypig> We actually received an enormous number of questions. Thank you! And especially lolek :) But it means I'll have to be super-strict with the timings.
08:02:12 <flypig> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:02:35 <lolek> #info just a regular user
08:02:41 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla and the chair today
08:02:56 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela - sailor @ jolla
08:03:06 <jojo_> #info  jojo regular user
08:03:28 <nephros> #info nephros, community member, (and bug squishing team)
08:04:17 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla
08:04:20 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:05:30 <flypig> I think the community are going to win today :)
08:05:51 <pvuorela> #info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla
08:06:09 <ExTechOp> Good morning, everyone!
08:06:18 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
08:06:21 <flypig> Good morning :)
08:07:05 <flypig> It looks like 5-4 to the community, if my fingers are telling-me correctly.
08:07:54 <lolek> flypig: so we have only one from Jolla?
08:08:28 <jojo_> 4
08:08:30 <flypig> Four from Jolla: ViGe, sledges, pvuorela and myself :)
08:09:21 <flypig> Let's move straight on to the questions... we had nine submitted today. Any latecomers, please still feel free to #info yourself later.
08:09:41 <flypig> It's a win for the community :)
08:09:49 <flypig> #topic Sailfish OS system encryption (5 mins -- asked by lolek)
08:09:57 <flypig> #info <lolek> Current encryption implementation in SFOS is almost useless because of very easy way of breaking it.
08:10:04 <flypig> #info <lolek> Some time ago there was info that Jolla is working on improving it.
08:10:08 <flypig> #info <lolek> There's also a community version of a solution made by rinigus to fix this issue.
08:10:13 <flypig> #info <lolek> When will this get finally fixed/implemented as it's critical from the security point of view.
08:10:40 <flypig> Thanks for your question lolek; I hope I paraphrased it okay. Here's the prepared reply.
08:10:47 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We recognise this is a feature that many users consider important, and we commend rinigus's work on a community implementation.
08:10:53 <flypig> #info <Jolla> In fact we've been working on an implementation of alphanumeric security codes for some time, and you can expect it to arrive in the next release.
08:11:18 <flypig> That's the answer, hopefully that helps give more clarity lolek?
08:12:06 <lolek> ok, implementing alphanum is something that's good to hear! I know that the team is small etc but do you still consider accepting or using solutions from rinigus as additional solution?
08:13:03 <flypig> Could you elaborate a little? Is there something from rinigus's solution that you're particularly interested in?
08:13:31 <lolek> rinigus: maybe you could drop two cents here as you're the author :)
08:13:39 <Thaodan> Sorry a little delayed
08:13:52 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla
08:13:58 <flypig> Glad you're here Thaodan.
08:14:23 <ViGe> 5-5!
08:14:43 <flypig> :D
08:15:08 <lolek> well he added some extra layer. Please forgive me if I'm messing up things but I think it was related to TPM storage? I'd need to get back to his implementation and see what's there but what's left in my brain is that his work was quite nice and SFOS could really benefit from it. Of course alphanum is also important. Imho these two can perfectly work together and improve it even more
08:16:19 <flypig> Okay, that's interesting, thanks lolek. I'd suggest, see what comes out with the release, and then we can come back to this question again.
08:16:21 <lolek> flypig of course I know that it's hard to get answer right now so I'm perfectly fine to move this to the next meeting so people from Jolla will have time to analyze this more. Yet tbh I did explicitly mention his work in this question but well.
08:17:06 <Thaodan> I think he wrote some integration to use the android keystore.
08:17:39 <piggz_> rinigus solution utilises hwcrypt
08:17:57 <piggz_> (morning btw)
08:18:02 <flypig> Good morning :)
08:18:09 <lolek> Thaodan: yes it seems so I'm right now checking that thread
08:18:09 <Thaodan> Systemd has systemd-cryptsetup which can use in the later versions fido hardware encryption as well as tpms.
08:18:18 <lolek> hi piggz
08:18:41 <lolek> ok so can't we also use that alongisde with alphanum?
08:18:42 <nephros> https://github.com/sailfishos-open/sailfish-device-encryption-community
08:18:46 <lolek> I mean the hwcrypt?
08:18:53 <Thaodan> piggz: that integration he wrote = hwcrypt. Which makes you be able to use the android keystore.
08:19:01 <piggz_> yes
08:19:20 <piggz_> downside of that for jolla i beleive is that it requires waiting for the android side to "come up"
08:19:30 <Thaodan> yes
08:19:42 <lolek> well that would be good to know what are the problems from jolla side
08:19:50 <Thaodan> similar why gis backed rndis doesn't work in the recovery.
08:21:02 <flypig> I'd personally like to see that, but how long is the wait that you refer to piggz_?
08:21:51 <lolek> flypig imho this is something that could be discussed easily on forum, maybe even some tests to see "how long" etc
08:22:04 <Thaodan> Personally from my own side I think using pgp or a fido key is the best solution that comes from the userspace. On x86 the tpm which is the equivalent of the Android key store is low level and has free software tools avaiable to acess it making using it a non issue if you trust it.
08:22:05 <piggz_> flypig: well, not long ... i use it on most of my ports and dont notice it
08:22:34 <Thaodan> If there was something similar for the keystore it would be much easier to use from our side.
08:22:37 <flypig> Okay, thanks for clarifying.
08:23:09 <Thaodan> I think for some ports it's ok to have to enter your password in the recovery.
08:23:28 <nephros> with a decent pass phrase, inputting it on a screen should take much longer than any wait times, right?
08:23:29 <Thaodan> Since luks support multiple keyslots.
08:24:08 <lolek> hmm I see that TEE is a problem because of binary blobs from Qualcom, at least this is what I understand from olf post: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/rfc-revision-of-home-encryption-on-sfos/7486/10
08:25:00 <flypig> #info rinigus's solution supports hwcrypt, and this may be a topic to come back to in a future meeting.
08:25:29 <Thaodan> lolek:  olf has a point..
08:26:06 <flypig> Alright, we should move on, given how many questions we have. Thanks for the nice question lolek. Useful discussion.
08:26:12 <ViGe> I would also expect issues with TEE, as it quite likely doesn't like the fact that we have unlocked bootloader.
08:26:27 <Thaodan> THat doesn't matter so far.
08:26:36 <Thaodan> If it would the device wouldn't boot.
08:26:46 <Thaodan> We use keystore in the hal already.
08:27:12 <lolek> well I forgot to put this on the question list... I wanted to start conv about potential problems and obstacles that need to be fixed in order to get locked bootloader ;)
08:27:34 <lolek> Thaodan: about other security issues or TEE only?
08:28:25 <Thaodan> lolek: if the bootloader supports user signatures you can relock it with your own key to accept only kernels e.g. from Jolla but Sony phones don't support that so far.
08:29:07 <lolek> Thaodan: then the next question is: what Jolla can do, and if community can help here. Maybe sending letters to "concrete" Sony?:D
08:29:37 <flypig> Okay, I'm going to kindly request we delay this discussion for a future meeting. Would you please add it as a future question lolek?
08:29:46 <Thaodan> lolek: TEE and outdated components. Using USB tokens is a matter of updating systemd. We already can use fido tokens.
08:29:50 <lolek> flypig: which one?:)
08:30:03 <flypig> lolek, bootloader locking
08:30:06 <lolek> surely
08:30:33 <flypig> Okay, thank you :) Let's go to the next question.
08:30:38 <flypig> #topic Different sounds for different sim/user/group/alarm (5 mins -- asked by lolek)
08:30:45 <flypig> #info <lolek> Different sounds for different sim/user/group/alarm is a critical feature especially for those who are using dual sim functionality.
08:30:52 <flypig> #info <lolek> So at least for the beginning it would be great to have:
08:30:56 <flypig> #info 1) different ringtone for every sim card;
08:31:00 <flypig> #info 2) different ringtone for contact specified as favourites;
08:31:03 <flypig> #info 3) different ringtone for each alarm;
08:31:07 <flypig> #info 4) different ringtone for every contact.
08:31:12 <flypig> #info <lolek> Please state when we can expect this.
08:31:15 <Thaodan> For relocking the bootloader: I'm afraid there isn't much we can do, Sony has to implement more of avb.
08:31:25 <flypig> Here is our prepared answer.
08:31:27 <Thaodan> but new topic now.
08:31:37 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We agree this is a nice feature, and changes that we've introduced in the upcoming release have been designed to make an implementation easier, by routing ringtone requests via the user interface code. See for example the following PR.
08:31:42 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/voicecall/pull/8
08:31:50 <flypig> #info <Jolla> However, more work is needed to integrate it with the Contacts app. We can't therefore give any guarantees about a future implementation.
08:31:57 <flypig> #info <Jolla> For some context, the Personal Ringtones app from rinigus offers this as a third-party feature.
08:32:05 <flypig> #link https://openrepos.net/content/coderus/personal-ringtones
08:32:10 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We discussed it during a community meeting in August 2021 and some useful links for anyone interested in contributing to development are provided in the minutes.
08:32:13 <flypig> #link https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2021/sailfishos-meeting.2021-08-05-07.00.html
08:32:46 <flypig> pvuorela worked on the PR, in case you'd like to add something pvuorela?
08:32:59 <ExTechOp> (this kind of also ties in with automatic silent times at night, which currently are not really available without much hacking)
08:33:50 <flypig> Is the Situations app still available?
08:34:00 <sebix[m]> flypig: yes
08:34:14 <pvuorela> that was quite good description already. but could note that per contact alarms might be easiest UI-wise and serve most people.
08:34:49 <lolek> pvuorela: ok, that's good to know, wasn't there even a patch for that?
08:35:11 <pvuorela> hm, don't remember any directly.
08:35:16 <nephros> Situations does not work well since SaiJail, upstream development say they are working on refactoring but have not too much time to dedicate to SFOS development.
08:35:18 <flypig> It might be interesting top see if Personal Ringtones can be updated to use the new code.
08:35:23 <lolek> yeah, don't see it :(
08:35:33 <lolek> pvuorela: and how about having at least the first one - as a starting point?
08:35:45 <lolek> I mean the "different ringtone for every sim"
08:36:07 <flypig> nephros, does that apply even if it's configured not to run sailjailed?
08:36:14 <pvuorela> on that i'm wondering how to do the ui so it's not too confusing with the generic ringtone selection.
08:36:33 <lolek> pvuorela: so it's only the gui prblem then?
08:36:40 <nephros> flypig: yes, the backend seems to use some outdated APIs to do things as well.
08:36:59 <flypig> I see; that's a shame, but thanks for clarifying nephros.
08:37:09 <pvuorela> lolek: yea, mnore of that. on the per-contact the ui should be simple ringtone picker on contat editor.
08:37:31 <pvuorela> and it's easy to understand that if the contact has the ringtone it overrides the generic setting.
08:37:38 <nephros> sure. Most of Situations is closed source, so fixing is hard. There is its helper app which is Open source though.
08:37:51 <lolek> pvuorela: tbh it's easy... in the "Sounds and ringtones"  there's "Ringtone" with option to select a tone. So if user has two sims, there should be a sub category: Ringtone (sim1), Ringtone (sim2) ... simple and clean
08:38:09 <lolek> well maybe the same for Message ..
08:38:41 <lolek> the grouping can be based either on the type: Call/Message or Sims: Sim1 [ ringtone, message], Sim2 [ringtone, message]
08:38:48 <pvuorela> lolek: what about if the user doesn't want to override sim2?
08:39:04 <lolek> nothing by default both will have the same setting
08:39:28 <nephros> If anyone is touching the DualSIM UI, why not pull in this as well: https://coderus.openrepos.net/pm2/project/patch-named-sims
08:40:08 <lolek> yes, naming sims is also something that's needed and would work quite well with that cause then in the ringtones a simcard name could be used instead of sim1/sim2
08:41:33 <lolek> yeah just checked .. on Android it's groupped by sim name
08:41:52 <lolek> erm, sorry the opposite, by the type of the sound
08:42:01 <lolek> so it's ringtone: sim1/sim2
08:42:12 <nephros> Other parts of the UI (i.e. mobile network) also jsut duplicate all the settings for each SIM. Cound be done for Tones as well.
08:42:12 <lolek> personally I have no preference
08:42:41 <flypig> Okay all, we only had 5 mins on this, so I propose to move to the next question.
08:42:55 <lolek> flypig we need a summary for this one
08:43:01 <pvuorela> hm, could check if that could be easy to accomplish.
08:43:14 <lolek> pvuorela: so quick confirmation: ringtones for simcard and alarms is not a big problem and should be doable, right?
08:43:28 <lolek> see that I'm not asking for dates ;)
08:43:36 <pvuorela> yea, shouldn't be a huge thing.
08:43:40 <ExTechOp> flypig As noted, Situations doesn't currently work very easily with SFOS, and anyway it's a bit of an overkill for "night silence" type functionality.
08:43:42 <lolek> awsome...
08:43:43 <ExTechOp> If the OS had something like this (eg. automatically switch over from one ambience to another at a given time) it would also be a natural extension to have only people with certain ringtones able to call at that time.
08:43:58 <flypig> #info It was noted that ringtones for simcard and alarms would be a nice first step, and potentially achievable.
08:44:36 <flypig> Is that a fair summary lolek? Anything to add?
08:44:52 <lolek> nope it's great, next step would be how to push this ;)
08:44:59 <flypig> ExTechOp, noted, that would also be nice :)
08:45:20 <flypig> pvuorela, any suggestions for how the community can encourage or help?
08:45:30 <flypig> (for the minutes)
08:46:28 <pvuorela> dunno. profiled and voicecall are open source, and the contacts backend too, but then again these requires UI side changes with them.
08:47:22 <flypig> #info For community help, pvuorela noted that profiled and voicecall are open source, and the contacts backend too, but this requires UI side changes, so it may not be so easy to propose changes from the community's side.
08:47:52 <flypig> Alright, we have to move on I'm afraid... my timings are already out the window!
08:48:06 <flypig> #topic Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek)
08:48:15 <flypig> #info <lolek> This is actually seen in the gallery app but the issue is maybe related to tracker.
08:48:21 <flypig> #topic Current Gallery App has a bug - loading files from unwanted folders (5 mins -- asked by lolek)
08:48:25 <flypig> #info <lolek> This is actually seen in the gallery app but the issue is maybe related to tracker.
08:48:34 <flypig> #info <lolek> The second link mentions about Folder View in gallery as also limiting which directory is scanned for images.
08:48:42 <flypig> #info <lolek> The gallery app should get a configuration option to allow us to exclude unwanted directories from showing up in it.
08:48:47 <flypig> #info <lolek> When we can expect this to be fixed/implemented?
08:48:50 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/gallery-app-loading-images-outside-of-image-folders/13516
08:48:53 <flypig> #link https://together.jolla.com/question/1948/feature-request-folderalbum-view-in-gallery
08:49:04 <flypig> Thanks again for the question lolek. Here's our prepared answer.
08:49:09 <flypig> #info <Jolla> After looking into this, it's already the case that images in the Music folders don't appear in the Gallery.
08:49:16 <flypig> #info <Jolla> On further discussion, it transpired that the problem images were stored on an SD card.
08:49:21 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We don't have any plans to change the way tracker handles SD cards, or to introduce configuration options in the user interface for this.
08:49:30 <flypig> #info <Jolla> However, tracker itself does have configuration options, and the Gallery App QML can also be tweaked for more specific requirements (see /usr/share/jolla-gallery/gallery.qml), at your own risk!
08:49:39 <flypig> #link https://gnome.pages.gitlab.gnome.org/tracker/faq
08:50:07 <flypig> Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to achieve masking Images alone from specific folders using Tracker configurations alone.
08:50:14 <flypig> But maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
08:50:27 <lolek> it is not from what I know and I really don't like the answer
08:50:38 <nephros> Interesting. Am I to read here that Jolla encourages users to hack around in their shipped apps?
08:51:00 <flypig> lolek, I understand that it's not the answer you wanted, but we wanted to be open with you about it, as your request was quite specific.
08:51:19 <lolek> yes I understand... you don't always get an answer you want ;)
08:51:34 <flypig> nephros, absolutely not :)
08:51:36 <flypig> But the device belongs to the user.
08:51:38 <pvuorela> by tracker sparql query it's possible to limit the results, but it's a different thing should we do that.
08:51:39 <ViGe> nephros: The users hack around whether we encourage them or not. There was the "at your own risk" part :)
08:51:47 <Nico> So I can control tracker using dconf?
08:51:57 <lolek> well we discussed this on the forum and I think another approach would be better
08:52:03 <flypig> pvuorela, yes, but that's essentially at the UI end, right? That's what we already do with the Gallery.
08:52:22 <pvuorela> flypig: yes, app deciding what it wants.
08:52:24 <Thaodan> I think other apps that use traker could be a start to look at to implement folder support.
08:53:01 <nephros> Well, I take form this that Patchmanager shall update documentaiton on how to do a proper patch, so people don't just `devel-su nano foo`.
08:53:05 <Nico> Ah, if the app tells tracker what it wants, that is indeed annoying :D
08:53:15 <Thaodan> But for excluding folders we can already do that.
08:53:20 <flypig> In theory, excluding specific folders wouldn't be hard. But getting the UI right for that... I think that's more of an issue.
08:53:27 <Thaodan> Commuity implemented a ui for that.
08:53:49 <lolek> flypig: so yeah... first is what Thaodan mentioned - support for folders in the gallery that's a must
08:53:56 <flypig> This isn't just about excluding folders of course, it's about excluding folders for specific media types.
08:54:09 <Thaodan> From my pov it did work fine but I think for "official" it could use some polishing.
08:54:31 <lolek> flypig: second is what I proposed related to sd card structure. This is what I saw in Android, and Blackberry. The system assumes the same structure that's on the phone and that's it
08:54:36 <nephros> There is https://coderus.openrepos.net/pm2/project/virgi-sailfish-patch-trackerpathsettings but I don't think that still works with tracker3. Not sure.
08:55:15 <lolek> I think that there's like 99% of the users that use sdcard that will have folders to keep music, photos, video
08:55:19 <flypig> nephros, but that's all or nothing tracker configuration right? Not based on media types.
08:55:27 <lolek> they won't be using sdcard like a big bag of everything
08:55:35 <lolek> the only thing is the folder naming
08:55:41 <nephros> flypig: yes, only path-exclusion and such.
08:56:04 <Thaodan> Flypig: A quick fix would be to ignore */cover.png
08:56:06 <flypig> Because as others have pointed out, there's already the option to put a .notrack file in a folder to prevent tracking.
08:56:14 <lolek> so the solution ... sfos will expect Music, Pictures, Video on sdcard the same way as on the system.. if user have different, sorry then gallery can easilly support albums
08:56:29 <lolek> as files from filesystem and sd can be easily "merged" into one collection
08:56:30 <flypig> Sorry, it's ".nomedia"
08:56:57 <flypig> lolek, do you have some docs for that behaviour on Android? That would be useful info.
08:56:58 <lolek> Thaodan: nah... it's not only cover, it can be front_cover, back_cover... etc
08:57:12 <lolek> flypig I could try to find this out
08:57:17 <Thaodan> sure but you can add those too to the list.
08:57:38 <flypig> That would be good: it's the sort of area where it makes sense to match what other systems are doing, in case SD cards are moved between systems.
08:57:52 <lolek> well that would be a problem imho
08:58:17 <lolek> for use there's pictures but I think I also saw dcim like for camera
08:58:22 <Thaodan> the topic came up on the tracker mailing list: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/tracker-list/2017-December/msg00004.html
08:59:03 <nephros> flypig: but while putting .nomedia in a Music folder will remove images from Gallery I guess it also removes music from Media right?
08:59:25 <Thaodan> But the best fix right now is to exclude $XDG_MUSIC_DIR/*.{png,jpg} this would be covered by the simple path expansion.
08:59:27 <flypig> nephros, yes, exactly. I only meant that it's an alternative to the patch.
08:59:30 <lolek> nephros: yes
08:59:53 <Thaodan> since the path expansion can also match on file names but not their types
09:00:05 <lolek> Thaodan: as I presonally pointed aout the problem I'll allow myself to say that the quick solution in this case is bad idea
09:00:38 <flypig> So, we've hit time again. Anything for the minutes on this? It would be good to move to the next.
09:00:48 <Cryx> #info Cryx - community; late but here before my topics
09:00:59 <flypig> Hi Cryx, good to have you here :)
09:01:00 <Thaodan> It's not bad since in that directory any png or jpg file doesn't matter, you don't need to check the mime type.
09:01:07 <Thaodan> the extension is good enough.
09:02:49 <lolek> flypig it seems this is what you asked for: https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/media
09:03:13 <flypig> #info There was a lot of discussion about different options, but none that lolek was satisfied with as a solution for the issue experienced.
09:03:27 <flypig> #info lolek provided a useful link to the Android approach.
09:03:36 <flypig> #link https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/media
09:04:19 <flypig> Alright, let's move on to the next.
09:04:34 <flypig> #topic Security of stored credentials (10 mins -- asked by lolek)
09:04:38 <Thaodan> I think excluding file extensions with a path match in front is the 95% of cases soluton right now.
09:04:51 <flypig> #info <lolek> For the built in mail client credentials are stored in plain text and easily accessible having just elevated privileges.
09:04:53 <lolek> Thaodan: can I hack this on my own?
09:05:22 <flypig> Sorry, can we park it for General discussion (it's good discussion, but this will get confusing).
09:05:26 <flypig> #info <lolek> This is something that shouldn't be possible in current world. Malicious app can escalate privileges and could easily get mail credentials.
09:05:33 <lolek> yes sure
09:05:34 <flypig> #info <lolek> I proposed a solution in the following thread. I'd like to know what are the plans to fix the problem of having password so easily accessible.
09:05:48 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/someone-else-with-clear-mail-password-in-home-defaultuser-config-signond-signon-secrets-db/10842/9
09:06:15 <flypig> Thanks lolek. And thanks again for this question. Here's our prepared answer.
09:06:18 <flypig> #info <Jolla> There are security benefits to encrypting the credentials separately from the device encryption, but these benefits are not as big as they may appear.
09:06:24 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Any implementation would require the unencrypted credentials to be stored in memory, with similar risks from elevated privileges as the current implementation.
09:06:33 <flypig> #info <Jolla> In both cases developer credentials, or a successful privilege escalation attack, are needed to access the unencrypted credentials.
09:06:41 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Our focus is therefore on avoiding the need to store any passwords on your device by moving accounts to OAuth2 so there is no need to store passwords at all.
09:06:52 <flypig> #info <Jolla> See for example this StackOverflow comment for a similar perspective:
09:06:56 <flypig> #link https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1925486/android-storing-username-and-password#comment3608058_1925534
09:07:01 <flypig> #info <Jolla> For app developers we recommend storing credentials using Sailfish Secrets, since apps don't have privileged access.
09:07:04 <flypig> #link https://docs.sailfishos.org/Reference/Core_Areas_and_APIs/Apps_and_MW/Secrets_and_Crypto/
09:07:24 <lolek> yeah but what with mail servers that doesn't support oauth2?
09:07:44 <lolek> and does it mean that from your point of view, kernel keyring is not secure? I'm asking cause I'm not security expert
09:08:02 <flypig> Unfortunately there is a fundamental insecurity in using such email servers.
09:09:05 <flypig> If the keyring is using a hardware security module, then that would be more secure.
09:09:44 <flypig> Or if the password is decrypted on every use by asking a user for a passphrase, say.
09:10:19 <lolek> well I can think of a solution as I wrote. PW are decrypted only once and stored in kernel restricted area
09:10:25 <lolek> so no other process can access it
09:10:28 <Thaodan> I think the issue is that each prodider needs at least some work to have their oauth working.
09:11:01 <lolek> Thaodan: yes but you can't expect everybody will adapt to SFOS
09:11:28 <flypig> lolek, it's already the case that non-system processes can't access the email passwords.
09:11:36 <Nico> Yeah, I think it is unlikely that every provider will provide oauth
09:11:51 <Thaodan> lolek: It's not about Sailfish OS but about Sailfish OS to adapt to each providers oauth.
09:12:12 <abr> Not just for sfos. OAuth is getting adopted all over the place these days. Even MS require it now for their mail.
09:12:18 <lolek> yes but the providers must support oath2 and not everybody does
09:12:27 <lolek> abr: please don't got with AM$
09:12:30 <lolek> not here
09:12:50 <Thaodan> It's just one example, Oauth is widely accepted.
09:13:08 <abr> it's an indicator that it's getting widely adopted. The SFOS mail plugin for Office had to migrate to use it.
09:13:33 <Nico> Well, from the 3 email providers I use, only one of them supports oauth afaik
09:13:46 <flypig> OAuth2 has many security benefits, that also benefit the providers; I'd expect it increasingly to be adopted.
09:13:48 <Thaodan> Personally I use pgp to encrypt my passwords with my hardware token. Adapting pass into Saifish Secrets should be possible.
09:13:59 <Nico> Otoh, for me the password being protected from user processes is good enough
09:14:22 <abr> it's the same on your desktop really isn't it
09:14:22 <lolek> abr: as I said, please don't use M$ as a guide... cause then we would be locked and would be allowed to do nothing. That company is something you don't want to follow.
09:14:45 <Thaodan> Yeah and two factor/topt  also works without oauth.
09:14:55 <abr> lolek: you're misunderstanding - no-one's using MS as a guide. It was an example of how widespread OAuth is now
09:15:24 <Nico> abr: On my desktop it is stored in kwallet, so encrypted by my login password. Otoh kwallet does no process hash pinning, so it can be read by any process :D
09:15:44 <Thaodan> Microsofts oauth is actually rather good for foss apps since it doesn't require you to store api secrets.
09:15:50 <Nico> I do have an alternative secrets store that pins by executable hash the permissions though
09:15:58 <lolek> abr: I'm sorry but you're doing this right now
09:16:03 <Nico> wouldn't protect againt system services though :3
09:16:52 <abr> OAuth isn't an MS standard. It's not the first account type in SFOS to use it.
09:16:54 <flypig> Even OAuth2 doesn't prevent the tokens from being stolen and reused, but they are much less powerful than a password.
09:17:46 <flypig> It would be good to summarise the topic. Any suggestions?
09:17:49 <Thaodan> The implementation aren't standardtized fully at least but that's besides the topic.
09:17:58 <abr> yeah, the only advantage is that they're short lived. If it's on the filesystem, then it can be lifted.
09:18:28 <abr> Thaodan: yeah extending it to support the Office account required some... loosening... iiuc
09:19:05 <Thaodan> Flypig: Encrypting passswords is a valid concern but it is not feaseable right now.
09:19:10 <lolek> flypig we need to have a solution to have short lived password imho or again.. TEE?
09:19:20 <flypig> Thaodan, you mean hardware encryption?
09:19:52 <abr> yeah it would be nice to use the TEE. I think there's some work going on to look into that.
09:19:56 <Thaodan> flypig: Any encryption helps even pgp with tokens stored on the same machine.
09:19:58 <flypig> lolek, can we say: "protection is still needed for accounts that don't support OAuth2, TEE may therefore be something to consider here"/
09:20:10 <lolek> I think so
09:20:11 <flypig> Thaodan, I don't really understand how that helps.
09:20:18 <Thaodan> But using pgp opens up hardware Encryption with external hardware quite easy.
09:20:31 <flypig> Sure, that helps, that I get :)
09:20:48 <flypig> #info Protection is still needed for accounts that don't support OAuth2, TEE may therefore be something to consider for that.
09:20:48 <piggz_> Thaodan: all my hardware secruity keys are usb-a :(
09:21:00 <abr> slava's work on using an external key over NFC for his foil apps is very cool
09:21:16 <flypig> abr, that sounds really nice; I've not seen that.
09:21:20 <Thaodan> Best option is to add a new pass backend to Sailfish Secrets to store paswords.
09:21:33 <Thaodan> piggz: There is a yubikey usb c
09:22:00 <piggz_> Thaodan: does that do pgp/ssh keys like a nitro-key pro?
09:22:28 <Thaodan> abrs: Sadly there is no ccid support for nfc so for in our nfc implementation if so we could be able to use the smartcard of the yubikey through nfc.
09:22:40 <Thaodan> piggz_: yes
09:23:03 <abr> Thaodan: I'm not sure which device slava was using for it, but it worked :)
09:23:31 <Thaodan> abr: slave just implemented topt not smardcard support.
09:24:24 <flypig> Alright, we really need to move on. If there's more to say, we should continue in General discussion.
09:24:36 <flypig> #topic New demo apps (5 mins -- asked by jojo)
09:24:43 <flypig> #info <jojo> Currently the only demo app we have from Jolla is the component gallery app.
09:24:48 <flypig> #info <jojo> It would be nice to have additional demo apps showing how to use other components of the device such as the camera, Bluetooth sharing, uploading documents, etc.
09:24:55 <flypig> #info <jojo> The docs on these topics are also very thin. Could Jolla provide such docs?
09:25:02 <flypig> #info <jojo> To avoid having to dig into the git repos of other apps to try guessing how it works.
09:25:07 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/component-gallery-app-more-functionalities-to-the-demo/14129
09:25:28 <flypig> Thanks for your nice question jojo_. Here is our prepared answer.
09:25:34 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We do provide a few other examples as part of the SDK: Camera Gallery, Lipstick Notifications Gallery, Media Gallery as well as the Component Gallery.
09:25:40 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Select "Welcome" then "Examples" in the Sailfish IDE to try them (or check the examples folder in the SDK installation).
09:25:46 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We also provide sample apps on GitHub to demonstrate C, C++ and QML usage of libsailfishapp.
09:25:50 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/sample-app-c
09:25:56 <flypig> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/sample-app-cppqml
09:26:05 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We've been working hard updating the docs recently, as you can see from Damien's Repository Roundups.
09:26:10 <flypig> #info <Jolla> But we always like suggestions for improving them. We're also always happy to receive PRs to our docs or new example apps for the SDK.
09:26:16 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Ideally these should be provided in a public git repo with a BSD licence.
09:26:37 <flypig> It's hard not to agree that the more examples people have access to the better. Would you like to add anything jojo_?
09:26:56 <lolek> a little nitpick... so only BSD licence MIT no?:)
09:27:15 <jojo_> I was not aware of the camera ones, do they show how to access the camera api from an other app ?
09:27:36 <jojo_> (I'll add those links and descriptions to the wiki to)
09:27:42 <jojo_> too*
09:27:55 <flypig> lolek, I'd expect MIT would be fine too. I guess the point is that copyleft licences may not be ideal for example code.
09:28:28 <flypig> jojo_, thanks for offering to add the links, that would be great.
09:28:42 <flypig> Is anyone able to comment on the camera example app?
09:28:46 <lolek> flypig yeah I know.. that's why the ":)" at the end ;)
09:29:01 <flypig> :)
09:30:18 <flypig> Understood lolek :) I may have a problem with taking everything too literally... ;)
09:30:35 <jojo_> ideas of demos I had because they are issues I'm facing rn, are: importing documents, using the camera, access to keyboard word suggestion (the calendar app does that when suggesting new event names).
09:30:38 <lolek> flypig no worries, it's hard to not do this when you never meet someone ;)
09:30:49 <flypig> Indeed!
09:31:39 <flypig> jojo_, nice ideas, especially keyboard word suggestions. Could you clarify what you mean by importing documents for me?
09:32:15 <flypig> jojo_, maybe if you check the camera example, you can feed back whether it satisfies your needs or not.
09:33:21 <jojo_> in the next release of the deepfish app i wanted to be able to pick a document from the $HOME/Documents folder, send it through the Deepl API, get the translation, and download it to the same (or different) folder. I managed doing that by reading someone else's code, but I'd have appreciated a "official" demo
09:33:41 <jojo_> will do for the camera example
09:34:22 <flypig> I'm just looking at the camera example code. It includes a VideoOutput area tied to the camera... is that what you're after?
09:34:32 <jojo_> yes !
09:34:43 <jojo_> great than that's one solved
09:34:51 <flypig> Okay, great! Worth looking at then, and your feedback would certainly be appreciated.
09:35:13 <flypig> So importing documents would relate to the Document Picker?
09:35:17 <jojo_> if you know how to get the input from the keyboard that would be cool too haha
09:35:21 <jojo_> yes
09:36:22 <flypig> #info jojo suggested additional examples related to the following would be useful: selecting documents using the Pickers and controlling keyboard autocomplete suggestions.
09:36:41 <jojo_> My idea would be (please tell me if this is out of scope for the meeting), if the user allowed it in the settings (i dont know where), upon selection of a word, it gets translated automatically in the keyboard word suggestion line
09:37:02 <flypig> jojo_, I don't know of demo code for autocomplete I'm afraid. Sorry.
09:37:17 <flypig> jojo_, that sounds really neat :)
09:37:50 <jojo_> yeah no problem, if anyone else has an idea or his/someone else's code doing it, feel free to send it to me
09:38:13 <flypig> I'm afraid we have hit time though. Would you like anything further added to the minutes before we move on?
09:39:07 <jojo_> nope, that was out of scope, pm me the url/idea on the forum if anyone has one
09:39:52 <flypig> #info Please contact jojo on the forum with suggestions for autocomplete usage code.
09:39:57 <flypig> Thanks again jojo_ for your question.
09:40:05 <flypig> #topic Handling of X10 III hardware button (Assistant Button) (15 mins -- asked by nephros)
09:40:13 <flypig> #info <nephros> Question 1: Making the key accessible to the OS components:
09:40:22 <flypig> #info <nephros> 1) re-use the existing functionality of MCE and lipstic-jolla-home;
09:40:26 <flypig> #info <nephros> 2) Replicate handling HOME key in MCE with separate signal to lipstick;
09:40:31 <flypig> #info <nephros> 3) Similar to 1 and 2 but handle it in the evdev codepath of MCE;
09:40:37 <flypig> #info <nephros> 4) make the code known to Qt instead of MCE;
09:40:40 <flypig> #info <nephros> 5) other?
09:40:43 <flypig> #info <nephros> Question 2: Handling key press events: Once the button press can be signalled to the OS, it should do something. Preferably this should be user-configurable:
09:40:51 <flypig> #info <nephros> 1) hardcode UI actions in Lipstick;
09:40:58 <flypig> #info <nephros> 2) something similar to the power key using MCE and DBus calls;
09:41:01 <flypig> #info <nephros> 3) DConf key containing .desktop file to launch;
09:41:04 <flypig> #info <nephros> 4) set of DConf keys to trigger a DBus call;
09:41:07 <flypig> #info <nephros> 5) hardcode a Jolla-conceived very sexy killer feature.
09:41:17 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/xperia-10-iii-make-google-assistant-button-a-camera-trigger/8983
09:41:35 <flypig> nephros, your question was quite long, I hope I preserved the thrust of it.
09:41:45 <nephros> Yes, thanks.
09:41:52 <flypig> Here is our prepared answer (sort of)
09:41:53 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Thanks for working on this, it would certainly be nice functionality.
09:41:57 <flypig> #info <Jolla> As this is a detailed question, rather than give a prepared answer, we've invited some of the relevant Sailors to join the discussion.
09:42:47 <flypig> nephros, I understand there was also some further discussion with pvuorela on your PR.
09:42:56 <nephros> A little yes.
09:43:27 <nephros> The purpose of this was to find the general direction this should be tackled. Like MCE/no MCE, Lipstick/Qt.
09:43:35 <nephros> Details I think  can be done in the PR.
09:44:10 <flypig> nephros, from what I understood, the message I heard was that MCE is probably not the right way to go. Better to handle it at the Qt layer.
09:45:31 <flypig> And personally, I thought 3 or 4 for question 2 seemed most sensible. I'm not whether DConf is the right place.
09:45:42 <nephros> Okay. THe second question is what should the button do - redoing the HOME button ins really lame. Making it a Camera button is easy, but also kinda boring.
09:46:01 <flypig> Configurable would be really nice.
09:46:02 <nephros> flypig: I have a PoC lipstick patch doing either ;)
09:46:17 <jojo_> <flypig> Configurable would be really nice. +1
09:46:27 <jojo_> "<flypig> Configurable would be really nice." +1
09:46:29 <flypig> nephros, could we have the link here for the minutes please?
09:47:18 <pvuorela> i think what most people would expect or need is the camera key. configuration comes at cost.
09:48:16 <pvuorela> and then if it's configurable, also the devices with camera key event should be configurable.
09:48:55 <nephros> pvuorela: it's about 15 LoC or so.
09:49:04 <jojo_> maybe Jolla could do the camera key one, and users could then create an app for making it configurable instead ?
09:49:05 <nephros> in Lipstick/composer I mean.
09:49:07 <flypig> It might be the sort of thing where having it configurable, but not user configurable (i.e. not exposed in the UI) would be enough for many.
09:49:34 <flypig> jojo_, sorry, I guess I'm repeating what you said.
09:49:38 <ExTechOp> Generally speaking, I feel there should be other similar customizable "user input methods" (like we already have for flipping the phone over for making it stop ringing)
09:50:06 <nephros> https://postimg.cc/gallery/YQP2hs2
09:51:01 <nephros> ^^ my PoC, using MCE from https://github.com/nephros/mce/tree/assistant-contd
09:51:36 <ExTechOp> Yeah, it'd probably be nice if didn't immediately wipe the phone for every button press :-D
09:52:24 <nephros> ExTechOp: I do agree there.
09:52:49 <nephros> ExTechOp: but maybe if we detect a 10 second press, oe even a knock-knock pattern?
09:54:27 <flypig> nephros, I'm not sure whether you got the answers you needed. Can we summarise?
09:54:51 <nephros> Fine with me.
09:54:53 <flypig> I suppose what you really need is more discussion on the PR?
09:55:17 <nephros> ion case there is interest in any of it, yes.
09:55:22 <flypig> Or, are you in a position to create a new PR already?
09:55:46 <nephros> #link https://github.com/sailfishos/mce/pull/21
09:55:56 <nephros> flypig: not at this moment, no.
09:56:12 <flypig> Okay, so let's log that you're encouraging more discussion on your PR.
09:56:12 <pherjung[m]> #info pherjung, community
09:56:17 <flypig> Hi pherjung[m]!
09:56:44 <flypig> #info nephros still needs more input to make progress with this. More discussion and direction on the PR would be useful.
09:57:04 <flypig> Is that okay? We hit time, so it would be good to move on.
09:57:10 <nephros> Sore, no problem.
09:57:13 <nephros> *u
09:57:17 <flypig> Thanks :)
09:57:23 <flypig> #topic Current policy for support of new devices (10 mins -- asked by lolek)
09:57:28 <flypig> #info <lolek> Maybe it's time again to rethink the support of new device and skip every second one?
09:57:34 <flypig> #info <lolek> Or get back to some conversation with the Indian government? Or maybe even add option to get subscription-based support?
09:57:41 <flypig> #info <lolek> Either way is fine to get more human power to move on and give us really viable alternative to iOS and Android.
09:57:46 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sony-xperia-10iv-for-299/14230
09:57:50 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/why-doesn-t-jolla-lobby-indian-government-for-sailfishos-release/14190
09:57:52 <jojo_> hahaha
09:58:15 <flypig> Thanks for your encouragement lolek. Here's our prepared answer.
09:58:21 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Thanks for your suggestions. As it happens, we're currently reviewing both our device support and pricing strategy, so what you've provided is useful input.
09:58:30 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We're not planning any changes in the short term, but we've been following the discussions on the forum carefully and are interested in all views.
09:58:35 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Please keep an eye on the forums, as we plan to invite more feedback there.
09:58:52 <flypig> That's the answer. Feel free to comment :)
09:59:22 <lolek> well I think there's nothing to comment. It's good to hear this :) btw is there any option of freely supporting Jolla?
09:59:30 <lolek> or it's only by buying license?
09:59:41 <flypig> Freely support? You mean like donating money?
09:59:45 <lolek> yeaz
09:59:54 <pherjung[m]> Personnaly, I prefer a postmarketOS approach than having a new device each year
10:00:10 <jojo_> what's their approach ?
10:00:28 <pherjung[m]> Support each device 10 years
10:00:38 <flypig> Concerning donating money, I'm not aware of such an option. The foundation was looking at something like that though maybe?
10:00:46 <pherjung[m]> And bring Linux Mainline
10:00:55 <nephros> jojo_: having a shitload of ancient devices barely booting.
10:01:11 <jojo_> yes indeed, but, the fundation is not linked to Jolla anyhow
10:01:27 <lolek> pherjung[m]: well I don't think it's good. It's too long, and why support device that's useless because of missing VoLTE as it's becoming mandatory in some countries?
10:01:44 <lolek> nephros: :D
10:01:56 <jojo_> so if lolek's goal is to donate directly to the company, unfortunately the fundation wouldn't be the correct approach
10:02:02 <flypig> jojo_, understood it's not Jolla linked, but it might be good to encourage more links, even if just informal.
10:02:11 <jojo_> indeed
10:02:25 <lolek> well one more thing. When I'm buying a license for SFOS I'll get exchange support, does it meen there's some license fee paid for AM$?
10:02:32 <jojo_> i just wanted to be clear in case that was lolek's goal
10:02:51 <flypig> lolek, oh, that's an interesting question. I don't immediately know the answer I'm afraid.
10:04:18 <lolek> flypig yeah, please see if you can find out this information,
10:04:28 <flypig> lolek, am doing...
10:06:29 <flypig> Alright, I've not immediately got an answer, but will let you know if I do before the end of the meeting.
10:06:53 <lolek> no worries, you can also let me know on the forum, that's fine
10:07:09 <flypig> Okay. Should we move on to the next then? Would anyone like anything added to the minutes for this topic?
10:07:32 <pherjung[m]> Let's move to the next topic :)
10:07:46 <lolek> let's move
10:07:50 <flypig> Okay moving on...
10:07:52 <flypig> #topic Behaviour of location services (5 mins -- asked by Cryx)
10:07:59 <flypig> #info <Cryx> Location service starts to get a GPS fix when an app actively requests it.
10:08:06 <flypig> #info <Cryx> This way geotagging of photos is not possible as the time for a fix is too long.
10:08:10 <flypig> #info <Cryx> It's unclear if this is a bug or battery-saving feature.
10:08:16 <flypig> #info <Cryx> If the latter then there should be a toggle implemented in location settings to choose between the current behaviour and always-on.
10:08:24 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/q-how-can-i-change-behavior-of-location-in-upper-menu-turn-on-gps-immediately-after-enabling-location/14272
10:08:34 <flypig> Thanks for the question Cryx. Here's our prepared answer.
10:08:37 <flypig> #info <Jolla> You raise a good point: there is certainly a trade-off between a fast GNSS fix and battery usage.
10:08:43 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Some work was already done on this to support Advanced Mobile Location (AML) released in 4.4.0.64.
10:08:49 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We're not actively considering continuous GNSS. However, if you'd like to look into it further, we recommend the following steps.
10:09:00 <flypig> #info <Jolla> 1. In /etc/location/location.conf and /var/lib/location/location.conf edit "enabled" to be "true" to move positioning to a higher level of standby.
10:09:09 <flypig> #info <Jolla> 2. Create a service to periodically poll position using geoclue. See the Positioning docs for info about geoclue. Ideally, have the service reduce polling when the screen is blanked.
10:09:13 <flypig> #info <Jolla> 4. If it works well, let us know and we'll look at it seriously.
10:09:16 <flypig> #link https://docs.sailfishos.org/Reference/Core_Areas_and_APIs/Apps_and_MW/Positioning/#platform-api
10:09:28 <flypig> Cryx, good that you could join, would you like to add anything?
10:10:04 <Cryx> Not at the moment. I'm more the user guy, but I'll lok into the provided docs.
10:10:27 <Cryx> I know there are other user with that question, willtry to team up with them.
10:10:52 <flypig> Yes, it's rather a technical answer I'm afraid, but primarily because there isn't an official way of achieving what you want right now.
10:11:00 <dcaliste> Do you have a point 3. missing, flypig ?
10:11:06 <sledges> if above suggestion is too techy, there's a battery-hungry workaround: run CSD GPS test continuously (launch from Settings | About product | tap Build number 5 times | All tests | GPS Satellite Lock)
10:11:38 <flypig> dcaliste, you make a very good point. I merged points 2 and 3 into point 2. So it's not missing, just badly numbered. Sorry!
10:12:03 <dcaliste> Sure, thanks.
10:12:10 <flypig> #info Note: 3. Isn't missing; 4. was incorrectly numbered.
10:12:30 <Cryx> I don't think it's to techy, will give it a try.
10:12:49 <flypig> sledges, nice suggestion.
10:13:05 <flypig> #info <sledges>  if above suggestion is too techy, there's a battery-hungry workaround: run CSD GPS test continuously (launch from Settings | About product | tap Build number 5 times | All tests | GPS Satellite Lock)
10:13:30 <nephros> What could be a reason I sometimes see geoclue logging to journal that it starts GPS while the UI switch is off?
10:14:20 <pvuorela> could help here having also MLS location data downloaded if not already
10:14:23 <nephros> To be precise, the logs appear precisely every two hours.
10:14:28 <Thaodan> sledges:  or have a heartbeat gps that passively scans in an interval.
10:14:46 <Thaodan> gps for such uses cases doesn't need to be precise
10:14:47 <ViGe> sorry for off-topic comment: There's an interesting new post on the forum ;)
10:14:48 <flypig> nephros, unsure about that I'm afraid.
10:15:32 <flypig> You are teasing us ViGe :) Perhaps you could share a link?
10:15:51 <nephros> Ah the chain has been unchained!
10:15:54 <ViGe> https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/release-notes-struven-ketju-4-5-0-16/14290
10:16:37 <abr> does that change one of the earlier answers?
10:16:39 <flypig> I would like to re-write the answer to Question 1 now ;)
10:16:43 <abr> :D
10:16:52 <lolek> ViGe: :)
10:16:53 <ExTechOp> nephros This happened while this meeting was ongoing, checked it before it started
10:18:12 <flypig> Alright, let's move to the next question, since it's on a similar topic.
10:18:17 <flypig> #topic "Find my Phone"-Feature (5 mins -- asked by Cryx)
10:18:21 <flypig> #info <Cryx> Would it be possible to implement a feature to locate the phone?
10:18:26 <flypig> #info <Cryx> I mainly think about support for the NextCloud PhoneTrack feature, especially as NextCloud is already implemented into the system.
10:18:31 <flypig> #info <Cryx> A second option would be writing the last location data in regular cycles to a defined cloud service.
10:18:34 <flypig> #info <Cryx> https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/phonetrack
10:18:42 <flypig> Here's our prepared answer.
10:18:46 <flypig> #info <Jolla> It would certainly be possible, and it would be a great feature. We'd actually recommend using the Sailfish MDM framework for this, specifically LocationSettings and LocationInfo:
10:18:49 <flypig> #link https://sailfishos.org/develop/docs/sailfish-mdm/sailfish-mdm-locationsettings.html/
10:18:52 <flypig> #link https://sailfishos.org/develop/docs/sailfish-mdm/sailfish-mdm-locationinfo.html/
10:19:07 <flypig> It's rather a short answer Cryx, but hopefully gives some ideas.
10:19:59 <flypig> Cryx, did you want to add anything further?
10:20:14 <Cryx> Maybe, I need further reading.
10:20:33 <Cryx> At the moment I guess we made a start wuth that.
10:21:02 <Cryx> Nevertheless this is one of the points on my list of missing features in SFOS....
10:21:24 <flypig> This would be a really nice feature, but I also think it's potentially good for a third-party implementation.
10:21:49 <flypig> I also can understand there are benefits of having it tightly integrated though, too, given it's a security feature.
10:22:07 <Cryx> Third party implementation für a pull request or as an app?
10:22:08 <lolek> flypig it could be part of paid support imho
10:22:37 <flypig> lolek, an interesting idea for sure.
10:22:55 <flypig> Cryx, I meant as a third party app in fact.
10:23:02 <nephros> hmmm, a Nextcloud plugin for Sailfish MDM? :)
10:23:12 <flypig> nephros, yes, something like that.
10:23:16 <Cryx> But app have still to activly run.
10:23:18 <lolek> flypig yeah, to clarify... two options: 1 user can set up their own service to handle this, then it's free... jolla offers this as subscription say hmm 5$ per year? don't know
10:23:22 <piggz_> flypig: fun fact relating to your last community news, which the above reminded me of ... installing quartermaster installs sailfish-mdm ... i was quite worried when i got those warnings on screen!
10:23:58 <flypig> Cryx, I'm not sure it would be possible to have it harbour-compatible, so it could run as a service (no UI).
10:24:06 <nephros> WE already have an app using NC phonetrack, and it even is in Harbour: LiveTrack.
10:24:07 <Cryx> A system task like backup function would be more useful for that case.
10:24:32 <flypig> piggz_, really? I wonder why that is.
10:24:41 <piggz_> flypig: i wonder too! :)
10:24:53 <nephros> And PhoneTrack is basically just a GET request, so it shouldn't be too hard to make a background service.
10:24:59 <flypig> Do you see the MDM banner anywhere in Settings?
10:25:04 <Cryx> And as said in my initial post: For me I primary think about nextcloud, but there would al,so be other optins...
10:25:30 <flypig> Nextcloud makes sense in terms of the existing integration. I think it's a nice suggestion.
10:25:46 <piggz_> i got the mdm banner when i installed quartermaster, got worried, carried on ... and the above just reminded me to check, and "zypper rm sailfish-mdm" wants to remove harbour-quartermaster
10:26:02 <flypig> lolek, thanks for the idea.
10:26:25 <piggz_> i dont see any mdm stuff in settings though
10:26:41 <flypig> piggz_, if it's working with something specific, there may be some other banner elsewhere... sounds like not though.
10:26:55 <Keto> we don't want to deal with your location data, so Jolla providing it as a service is not really an option :)
10:27:26 <lolek> Keto: ahh the UE regulations?
10:27:35 <piggz_> Keto: you have all our data from connectivity check anyway ;)
10:27:36 <Cryx> That was also not what I asked. I'm happy that Jolla doesn't run any service...
10:28:03 <piggz_> has anyone ran a wireshark on ipv4.jolla.com ? :D
10:28:11 <lolek> Cryx: well it's nothing mandatory but optionally for those who don't want/can't set up their own service
10:28:23 <lolek> piggz_: what you found out?
10:28:31 <Cryx> So the main idea was an option to use existing services by users choice.
10:28:54 <nephros> piggz_: https://github.com/black-sheep-dev/harbour-quartermaster/blob/master/src/service/locationservice.h#L12 that's why.
10:28:58 <lolek> Cryx: yep... and suggestion that jolla may benefit from it is valid as this would be a bigger motivation to do that ;)
10:29:04 <piggz_> lolek: i was joking :)
10:29:54 <Cryx> BTW there where some additional points added by others to the topic. But may be too much for today.
10:30:07 <piggz_> nephros: interesting
10:30:13 <flypig> We are already heavily over time on this topic and the meeting I'm afraid Cryx.
10:30:23 <Cryx> No problem.
10:30:35 <flypig> Cryx, please raise it again in another meeting though. This one happened to be particularly packed.
10:30:49 <Cryx> I'll do.
10:30:51 <flypig> We must move on, but thanks for the question and the nice discussion.
10:30:53 <flypig> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by jolla)
10:30:57 <flypig> #info <jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
10:31:10 <lolek> I've got something related to todays release ;)
10:31:16 <lolek> but it's not PR
10:31:18 <lolek> :D
10:31:28 <flypig> lolek, can you hold it in until General discussion
10:31:29 <flypig> ?
10:31:43 * piggz_ is also holding until general
10:31:45 <lolek> there's nothing about echo cancellation on 10 III, is it finally fixed or we still have no fully usefull phone?
10:31:49 <lolek> aaa ok
10:31:50 <lolek> sorry
10:31:54 <flypig> :)
10:31:55 <flypig> We didn't have any PRs suggested in advance, but if someone would like to raise one, now is the time.
10:32:13 <flypig> Let's give this 2 mins for someone to reply, then we'll move on.
10:32:30 <pherjung[m]> I have one
10:32:44 <flypig> Yes! Please tell us.
10:33:28 <pherjung[m]> https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/pull/959
10:34:11 <pherjung[m]> And https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/pull/957
10:34:14 <Nico> Oh, that was a while ago :3
10:34:18 <flypig> Okay, so this is dcaliste's PR awaiting input from Jolla.
10:35:02 <dcaliste> Yeh, I let these slip a bit. I was occupied with calendar stuff ; )
10:35:34 <flypig> Unfortunately Raine, who has commented on the first PR, is attending the Yrityspaivat even this morning.
10:35:40 <flypig> event
10:38:46 <ExTechOp> First impression on Struve: somehow, many applications fell out of their folders and ended up on the main screen?
10:38:58 <flypig> I've nudged Raine to take another look at the first PR.
10:39:00 <dcaliste> We may plan them for next community meeting PR discussion.
10:39:08 <dcaliste> I'll try to be present.
10:39:24 <flypig> Okay, thanks dcaliste that would be great. And thanks for flagging them up pherjung[m].
10:39:43 <flypig> Let's do the bug tracking, then we can move to General discussion.
10:39:46 <flypig> #topic Untracked bug reports (5 mins -- asked by pherjung)
10:39:54 <flypig> #info <pherjung> Untracked bug reports... (see the forum)
10:39:59 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Thank you again for all of your work in checking and collating bug reports.
10:40:03 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Here are the results:
10:40:06 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 8 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".
10:40:10 <flypig> #info <Jolla> - 2 bug reports tagged as "fixed".
10:40:16 <flypig> Given all we had so many questions I didn't have time to go through the "to be closed" and "duplicate" sections I'm afraid, but all of the bugs went in.
10:40:39 <flypig> Thanks once again for all your and the team's work pherjung[m], nephros.
10:41:04 <flypig> There isn't usually too much to discuss here, can we move straight on?
10:41:14 <pherjung[m]> Just a question
10:41:33 <pherjung[m]> Sould I limit to only 10 bugs
10:41:48 <pherjung[m]> Without taking care of his category?
10:42:05 <flypig> That's a good question.
10:42:12 <nephros> ExTechOp: About Struve: that is true for all *android* apps. Not for *any* sfos apps.
10:42:36 <flypig> pherjung[m], last time we agreed that I'd focus on the first 10, and then give a best-effort for the others.
10:43:03 <flypig> If you are really keen for the other categories to be tackled on a weekly basis, I think limiting it to ten, and not categorising, might help with that.
10:43:15 <flypig> Sorry, not weekly, I mean fortnightly.
10:43:45 <flypig> But if you prefer to focus mostly on the bugs, then stick to what you're doing.
10:44:20 <ExTechOp> nephros Ah, that's true
10:44:38 <pherjung[m]> No problem. I'll always priorize untracked bugs report. But if I don't have enough I'll fill the rest with "duplicate" and "to close" bugs report
10:44:52 <flypig> pherjung[m], that sounds really good.
10:45:05 <flypig> pherjung[m], I will also contact you today privately to discuss some other points.
10:45:18 <flypig> Related to the bug coordination.
10:45:32 <pherjung[m]> Great
10:45:59 <flypig> Let's go to General discussion.
10:46:01 <flypig> #topic General discussion (10 min)
10:46:11 <piggz_> mine is more of a request....
10:46:16 <piggz_> pleeeeeease fix build.sailfishos.org.   using build.merproject.org as a workaround doesnt really fit with the saillfishos message (common site names), plus, all the emails i get point to invalid urls .... i dont suppose you would want to change all the server config to make it officially build.merproject.org in the emails it sends?
10:46:41 <flypig> Keto, is that something you can help piggz_ with?
10:47:13 <ViGe> we have a task about that in our backlog...
10:47:29 <ExTechOp> Anyone here who would like to make a mosh package, perhaps on Chum? https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/easy-mosh-installation-on-sfos/14118
10:47:47 <flypig> ExTechOp, I would like that too.
10:48:16 <piggz_> it was sad to see this change https://github.com/sailfishos-chum/sailfishos-chum-gui/pull/133
10:48:36 <ViGe> I'd also like mosh
10:48:44 <piggz_> ViGe: ....for over a year?
10:49:20 <piggz_> it must have been broken for about that long now :(
10:50:06 <lolek> ok so now the question I asked above... with the current release, will 10 III get the echo issue fixed or we still have no good officially supported phone for SFOS?
10:50:14 <ViGe> piggz_: not quite, it was opened in August :-P my understanding is that it's not that simple to fix
10:51:06 <piggz_> ViGe: i figure there is some complexity .... would be interested to hear those details seperatly ... but its def been broken longer than that :)
10:51:09 <sledges> lolek: not with current release, but there might be a way to flash (when) fixed Sony blobs at any point in time. At the moment, there is a dirty workaround by copying relevant files from Android 12 SW binaries, but the list first needs to be truncated and pass that information to Sony, for them to fix Android 11 blobs respectivelly. Also need to check if flashing stock Android 12 (only
10:51:15 <sledges> obtained by XperiFirm for now) is needed, too. This is on my next TODO list
10:51:37 <piggz_> another note, for anyone at FOSDEM ... loolk for Sailfish being mentioned on the libcamera talk/slides :)
10:51:37 <nephros> Regarding the previous Meeting topic of Gallery images, it turns out doing custom (filtered) displays in gallery.qml is quite easy, as suggested in https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/gallery-app-loading-images-outside-of-image-folders/13516
10:52:04 <Thaodan> Similar issue regarding blobs is also that the camera server crashes because of a missing blob.
10:52:21 <Thaodan> Both issues should be fixed by a new blob release.
10:52:39 <lolek> sledges: I know I ask for much but could you please rise a prio for this? For now it seems that 10 III could be the first "fully" working SFOS device.
10:52:56 <sledges> it's already maxed out:)
10:53:00 <flypig> piggz_, which devroom is that?
10:53:12 <lolek> sledges: then instead of making it p1, make it p0 :D
10:53:16 <sledges> p-1
10:53:17 <piggz_> flypig: i dont know, i just got a sneak peak at the slides
10:53:20 <lolek> yayayaya :D
10:53:53 <Keto> I guess I can say that we have new hardware for the community obs. But not clear when exactly we get things fixed there, hopefully does not take too long
10:54:20 <piggz_> flypig: https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/event/mobile_camera/
10:54:38 <ExTechOp> (I must go now, thanks for the meeting!)
10:54:50 <flypig> Thanks ExTechOp!
10:54:54 <flypig> We should wrap up.
10:55:10 <flypig> Thanks for the link piggz_, but that seems to be last year :(
10:55:22 <flypig> If anyone is attending FOSDEM, you must come and visit us on the Linux on Mobile stand please!
10:55:24 <piggz_> yeah, just realised
10:55:40 <lolek> flypig would love to :(
10:55:48 <flypig> Sorry that you can't make it lolek.
10:56:15 <flypig> Alright, I'm afraid my timing for this meeting has been terrible. It's time to go and play with 4.5.0.
10:56:20 <flypig> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
10:56:25 <flypig> Proposing Thursday 16th February at 08:00am UTC
10:56:34 <lolek> why not march?
10:56:44 <lolek> I mean there's some mandatory two meetings per month?
10:56:59 <flypig> Usually they are every two weeks.
10:57:02 <lolek> ah ok
10:57:21 <flypig> Unless there's some reason not to, but I don't know of anything that applies here.
10:57:33 <lolek> nah, didn't know the rule
10:57:41 <flypig> Okay, so no objections?!
10:57:49 <flypig> 3
10:57:51 <flypig> 2
10:57:52 <flypig> 1
10:57:54 <flypig> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 16th February 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2023-02-16T0800Z
10:57:59 <flypig> I'm sorry my timekeeping was so bad in general. The good news in this respect is that this is also my last meeting as chairperson.
10:58:05 <flypig> But I'm delighted that ViGe will be taking over at the next meeting. Thank you for all of your excellent questions and discussion over the last year!
10:58:22 <flypig> And thanks all for the lovely discussion this meeting too!
10:58:23 <lolek> flypig why it's your last meeting as chairperson?
10:58:28 <ViGe> I'm already a bit scared about the next meeting
10:58:41 <flypig> lolek, ViGe will be much better than me.
10:58:48 <lolek> ViGe: no worries I'll try to keep the question list low from my side :d
10:58:59 <ViGe> No I won't
10:59:02 <lolek> flypig I've got nothing to comment about you personally
10:59:05 <piggz_> flypig: this one https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/linux_camera_apps/
10:59:09 <flypig> Haha. You asked good questions lolek, but there were quite a few!
10:59:10 <Nico> What, this was the last pig meeting? D:
10:59:13 <dcaliste> Thanks a lot flypig for these meeting animations all the year long.
10:59:31 <lolek> flypig questions is one... what will be the outcome of that is second thing
10:59:47 <flypig> Nico, there will still be pigs/gz at the meeting, I'm sure!
11:00:03 <Nico> Okay, fair, but...
11:00:08 <flypig> lolek, indeed so.
11:00:19 <Nico> Are you flying off or just not chairing?
11:00:24 <lolek> for example, I'm still waiting for the home unlock api
11:00:28 <lolek> :>
11:00:52 <flypig> Nico, let's have that discussion at the next meeting!
11:01:07 <flypig> Time to wrap up now though. Thank you all again!
11:01:10 <flypig> #endmeeting