07:00:14 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 26th Oct 2023
07:00:14 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 26 07:00:14 2023 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
07:00:14 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
07:00:30 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
07:00:30 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-26th-october-2023/16955
07:00:30 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
07:00:30 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
07:01:22 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones - community
07:01:22 <direc85[m]> #info Matti Viljanen, community
07:01:35 <rubdos[m]> #info Ruben De Smet, community
07:01:39 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today
07:01:40 <tuplasuhveli[m]> #info tuplasuhveli, community
07:01:42 <voidanix[m]> #info voidanix, proficient lurker/community
07:01:59 <flypig> :D
07:02:11 <Crabster> #info Crabster - lurker
07:03:03 <Keto> #info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla
07:04:25 <flypig> A solid community win?
07:04:34 <rainemak> Seems so :)
07:04:36 <rubdos[m]> Don't jinx it!
07:04:53 <flypig> Haha :) But a 4-4 draw between matrix and IRC!
07:05:11 <rainemak> #topic Recently released repositories (10mins -- asked by sailr)
07:05:22 <rainemak> #info <sailr> As also announced in the latest community news, various repositories
07:05:22 <rainemak> #info <sailr> have been published by jolla on github under bsd license and made publicly
07:05:22 <rainemak> #info <sailr> available. Since a few days they have disappeared again. Here are some
07:05:22 <rainemak> #info <sailr> questions:
07:05:22 <rainemak> #info <sailr>
07:05:24 <rainemak> #info <sailr> 1. Will the repositories be released again and if so, when? If not, why?
07:05:25 <rainemak> #info <sailr> 2. Is the release of other currently proprietary components under bsd
07:05:27 <rainemak> #info <sailr> license planned? If so, will this affect all components of the system?
07:05:29 <rainemak> #info <sailr> If not, which components should remain proprietary?
07:05:31 <rainemak> #info <sailr> 3. Can you give reasons for releasing the components under bsd license?
07:05:38 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We have communicated reasoning in the re-organisation thread.
07:05:38 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Thank you for your understanding.
07:06:50 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/re-organisation-of-jolla-company/17133/17
07:07:18 <Sailr> Thanks for your reply. Were these repositories licensed under bsd ?
07:08:16 <Sailr> Some people forked these repos and would like to know if they are allowed to use it or republish it on
07:09:14 <flypig> It's good to see the update. I'm certain everyone is rooting for Jolla to succeed with the re-organisation.
07:10:33 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Yes, kudos for being open about the current situation.
07:11:01 <voidanix[m]> to add to this, what was the reasoning at jolla for releasing the repositories before? Assuming the restructuring was already ongoing then
07:11:12 <rainemak> Sailr, unfortunately I'm not a layer. Thus, I'd rather not want to dive there.
07:11:50 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
07:13:10 <tuplasuhveli[m]> I feel like some of parts of the original question were left unanswered. So, to return to them:
07:13:10 <tuplasuhveli[m]> To what extent are you planning to re-license previously closed code in the future, if the situation allows it? If you have any particular goals in mind, feel free to share them as well.
07:13:23 <Sailr> Can you publish an answer to these questions in one of the next community newsletters, once the restructuring process is finished?
07:13:31 <rainemak> great typo: lawyer that :-)
07:13:44 <flypig> :)
07:14:51 <rainemak> as communicated, we'll update on the matter the soonest
07:15:50 <flypig> I'm not a lawyer, and have no inside knowledge. My lay and context-free interpretation would be that once something is released under BSD, anyone who has the code can use it. But if it was an error to release it, good etiquette says people should abide by the owner's wishes.
07:16:04 <rubdos[m]> My IANAL take: Jolla did probably not intend to release those repositories, which is why they are not visible anymore.  On the other hand, you could probably use them, and it might even hold in court (or it may not, IANAL).  Jolla is clearly not in a position to answer, and possible not even in a position to take it to court.  So the real question in my opinion is: do you want to go against Jolla's intentions, or do you just want
07:16:04 <rubdos[m]> to use the code?
07:16:53 <rubdos[m]> ... and flypig managed to phrase that idea into fewer sentences than I did :)
07:17:15 <flypig> I'm reassured that we both said basically the same thing :D
07:17:24 <rubdos[m]> :-D
07:17:56 <Sailr> Correct =) Just wanted to place teleshoes question.
07:18:08 <rainemak> Thank you for the discussion. 10mins up.
07:18:37 <rainemak> Let's move on.
07:18:47 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by jolla)
07:18:54 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
07:20:17 <rainemak> Didn't spot myself anything special. Anybody else? flypig rubdos[m] maybe?
07:20:44 <rubdos[m]> I would throw https://github.com/sailfishos/rust/pull/19 in here, although it's only 3 days old.  I could however be a nasty person and claim that https://github.com/sailfishos/llvm/pull/3 is older than the requirement, and trigger the discussion anyway.  Either way: to test those PRs (direc85 and I are trying), we'd need cross-{aarch64,armv7hl}-glibc packages, and I can't seem to find how to get a hold of them.
07:21:09 <rubdos[m]> mal will still comment on that outside of this meeting however, so I don't really expect an answer
07:21:36 <rainemak> yeap, saw the discussion between you and mal
07:21:57 <rubdos[m]> And mal is not in the meeting, so I don't really expect anything out of the above statement.
07:22:14 <rubdos[m]> It would however be nice if some clarification could be given on those packages, even if it only were instructions on how to build them ourselves
07:22:20 <rubdos[m]> either in here, or outside of the meeting :)
07:22:31 <rubdos[m]> My feeling is that there's some secrecy going on around them.
07:22:38 <rubdos[m]> but my feeling might be very well off.
07:23:40 <flypig> For context in the meeting here, could you briefly explain what these patches are for rubdos[m]?
07:23:53 <rainemak> Noted outside of the meeting part. Thank you anyhow.
07:24:04 <rubdos[m]> Also, just in case, this may come across as an attack on mal.  It's rather the contrary.
07:24:34 <rubdos[m]> Context: these patches are my attempt to get LLVM and Rust to horribly recent versions, such that Gecko and Whisperfish can keep pace at updating.
07:24:38 <rainemak> I read exactly that way.
07:24:40 <rubdos[m]> #info Context: these patches are my attempt to get LLVM and Rust to horribly recent versions, such that Gecko and Whisperfish can keep pace at updating.
07:24:49 <flypig> Thank you!
07:25:14 <flypig> It's great that you're working on this.
07:25:33 <direc85[m]> I also ran into the same packages missing when I patched GCC to fix the aarch64 bug flypig ran into - but OBS managed to build other architectures than i486.
07:25:34 <rainemak> indeed! great stuff!
07:25:55 <rubdos[m]> It's more efficient to work on rust 1.72.1 than it is to maintain all the patch sets for Whisperfish to keeps libs 1.52 compatible at this point :'-)
07:26:18 <flypig> Oh interesting direc85[m], I hit that as well trying to build your changes locally. I thought I was just doing something wrong.
07:26:31 <rubdos[m]> (and it seems that 1.72.1 is actually finished already!  mal is going to test it when he finds the time)
07:26:50 <rubdos[m]> OBS is still black magic to me...
07:27:06 <rainemak> As we don't have too much topics. Let's use extra 10mins for this.
07:28:11 <rubdos[m]> Okay, then maybe I can give some more context.
07:28:37 <flypig> I know the feeling rubdos[m]. It's a heady mixture of opaque SUSE documentation and magical sb2.
07:29:32 <rainemak> the magical sb2 is not well documented
07:29:38 <rubdos[m]> Upstream Rust 1.64 (https://github.com/sailfishos/rust/pull/19) requires the statx syscall, which is currently not supported by sb2.  I decided to revert the specific patch (which has been done by Jolla in the past) that introduces the statx dependency.  It turns out to be a rather trivial revert, but Jolla might oppose on introducing that complexity.  Instead they could opt to implement statx in sb2.
07:29:39 <direc85[m]> On that note, I managed to install the necessary Rust and LLVM packages in Sailfish SDK and successfully build Whisperfish with Rust 1.72.1 for i486.
07:30:17 <flypig> What is statx for?
07:30:31 <rubdos[m]> #info Jolla has to choose whether to support statx in sb2 or maintain revert patches for Rust.
07:30:39 <rubdos[m]> statx is used for time64 on 32-bit platforms
07:31:04 <flypig> Thanks for clarifying. That helps make it a bit more concrete.
07:31:19 <rubdos[m]> It's going to become increasingly cumbersome to maintain the patches, but at the moment they're rather trivial
07:31:50 <rubdos[m]> We could also opt to patch upstream Rust and add a meego or jolla vendor target, but that's quite an endeavour on its own :'-)
07:31:59 <rubdos[m]> (and we'll still require some patches that they would never want to accept anyway)
07:32:18 <rubdos[m]> #info statx is used for time64 on 32-bit platforms
07:32:46 <rainemak> not meego please
07:33:38 <rainemak> if something, how about sb2 vendor target
07:33:52 <rainemak> there's nothing jolla specific per se
07:34:36 <rainemak> some food for thought
07:34:38 <rubdos[m]> I fear that an sb2-target will open a can of worms that I would not intend to touch :'-)
07:34:41 <rubdos[m]> food for thought indeed
07:35:05 <rainemak> good discussion... let's move on
07:35:14 <rubdos[m]> yes!
07:35:35 <rainemak> #topic Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung)
07:35:41 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> Untracked bug reports
07:35:41 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-26th-october-2023/16955/19
07:35:41 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> As always, the Community Bug Coordination Team have done a superb job.
07:35:42 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> As a result of their work, we now have:
07:35:42 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 7 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".
07:35:42 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 1 report issue got fixed already.
07:35:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 1 report is still under investigation.
07:36:56 <rainemak> as direc85[m] is here as well maybe you'd like to add some more input to the https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/4-0-1-48-sms-conversation-title-fields-overlap/4867 ?
07:37:07 <flypig> Great work from both the bug team and Jolla.
07:38:07 <flypig> direc85[m], it's cool that you know a pirate!
07:38:08 <rainemak> We tried to reproduce it many ways and so far have not managed to reproduce it.
07:38:49 <rainemak> Certainly we can continue the discussion on the issue as well.
07:39:12 <direc85[m]> This is a bit from-the-hip as I did that a while ago.
07:39:42 <rainemak> No worries there
07:40:13 <direc85[m]> To me it occurs with XA2 Ultra only, with all text sizes. There's an additional layout glitch in portrait orientation too.
07:40:50 <direc85[m]> My device has gone through many OTA updates, so I could try reflashing it and see if that fixes the issue.
07:41:47 <rainemak> I could do the same as well.
07:42:32 <rainemak> All in the all, like flypig put it, great work
07:42:42 <tuplasuhveli[m]> I was able to to reproduce this one with 10 III. It wasn't obvious at first, but I scrolled the conversation slowly up and down and suddenly the overlap took place.
07:42:45 <rainemak> #info Great work from both the bug team and Jolla.
07:43:42 <rainemak> tuplasuhveli[m], my any chance did you happen to rotate the device whilst scrolling?
07:43:46 <rainemak> by
07:44:05 <tuplasuhveli[m]> No, I use locked orientation.
07:44:14 <rainemak> like wise
07:44:30 <rainemak> but that's one factor there as landscape works differently
07:44:58 <rainemak> Let's move on to the general discussion
07:45:03 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (5 min)
07:45:13 <rainemak> #info Daylight saving time ends at 29th Oct and clocks are turned backward 1 hour.
07:45:32 <poetaster> moin, all. sorry to be late.
07:45:40 <rainemak> flypig, you'll finally get your extra hour :-)
07:45:42 <flypig> Hei poetaster!
07:45:49 <flypig> I've been waiting for this hour all year!
07:46:00 <direc85[m]> Me too!
07:46:26 <poetaster> I lost the hour in debugging this morning.
07:46:49 <rainemak> Hehe, that happens occasionally
07:46:54 <flypig> Haha! Wisely "lost" I'm sure :)
07:46:59 <flypig> Can I quickly ask about forum moderation. There's been a bit of disruption recently.
07:47:13 <rainemak> sure
07:47:52 <flypig> I didn't want to get involved (not my place) but would you/jolla mind if I try to be more active? I understand if you prefer me to keep out of it.
07:47:52 <ExTechOp> Apparently no progress has been made on reproducing/fixing https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/4-1-0-23-4-0-1-48-4-4-0-64-4-5-0-16-no-notification-sounds-ringing-sms-alarm/4886 ?
07:49:20 <rainemak> flypig, I see you as a trusted community member. Thus, I'd like if you'd be more active.
07:49:51 <ExTechOp> I concur.
07:50:08 <poetaster> Ditto.
07:50:15 <Crabster> please
07:51:00 <poetaster> It's becomming difficult to use the forum since I'm actively avoiding two users who, currently occuppy the 3 of the top seven threads.
07:51:04 <thilo[m]> What is considered a good strategy? Currently i just try to keep out of toxic conversations... Would it help if more people speak against it?
07:51:19 <flypig> Thanks; I'll be try to be responsible and adult :D
07:51:35 <rainemak> Thank you flypig!
07:51:56 <voidanix[m]> Speaking against does not help, it looks like
07:52:05 <Sailr> Thanks, flypig!
07:52:27 <rainemak> thilo[m], there's no easy answer.
07:52:57 <thilo[m]> voidanix[m]: But just leaving them the conversation an visibility is dangerous as well..
07:53:21 <thilo[m]> Hey, cool.. We're a small politics lab now...
07:53:25 <poetaster> I hate to say it but I'm for three strikes you're banned.
07:54:01 <rainemak> this is what we used to use
07:54:01 <rainemak> https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Collaborate/IRC_Guidelines/
07:54:25 <rainemak> personally think that works well to forum as well
07:54:38 <thilo[m]> Recently I feel some love for banning in me too ..
07:55:34 <poetaster> it's suck. but life is short.
07:55:56 <rainemak> let's move on
07:56:19 <rainemak> we don't need to solve this now
07:56:23 <thilo[m]> I'd like to have an option to report borderline illegal stuff
07:56:36 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
07:56:36 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 9th November at 07:00am UTC.
07:58:30 <direc85[m]> Isn't that 09:00 EET?
07:59:04 <Nico> Thanks for the DST reminder <3
08:00:12 <direc85[m]> I mean, 9 o'clock works better for me, just making sure it's intentional :)
08:00:44 <voidanix[m]> I think that's 9am CET
08:00:52 <rainemak> It's not intentional. Even though I raised daily light saving ending :-)
08:01:20 <direc85[m]> :')
08:02:04 <rainemak> I should be 08:00 UTC, how does that sound like?
08:02:41 <rainemak> that should give that long requested hour for flypig :-=
08:02:43 <rainemak> :-)
08:02:44 <flypig> Sopii!
08:02:49 <rainemak> Kiitos
08:02:59 <ExTechOp> I'd also prefer 10:00+02:00 so 08:00Z
08:03:21 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th November 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2023-11-09T0800Z
08:03:24 <rainemak> Thanks
08:03:32 <rainemak> Thank you everyone for the meeting!
08:03:37 <ExTechOp> Thanks everyone!
08:03:39 <flypig> Thanks rainemak and everyone!
08:03:42 <rainemak> #endmeeting