08:00:02 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th Feb 2024
08:00:02 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 15 08:00:02 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:02 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:20 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:00:20 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-15th-february-2024/17982
08:00:20 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
08:00:20 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:01:08 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today
08:01:45 <Nico> #Nico, from Barcelona (but in Japan rn). SFOS user, but haven't been active in the community for quite a while
08:02:06 <dcaliste> Good morning,
08:02:12 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:02:14 <Nico> #info Nico (sorry)
08:02:15 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela, community
08:02:36 <tuplasuhveli[m]> #info tuplasuhveli, community
08:02:40 <Crabster> #info Crabster - lurker
08:03:33 <rainemak> We have two topics today and some discussion/feedback topics for the general discussion. So, we have good amount of time.
08:04:21 <rainemak> Let's give a minute for intros. And as usual, it's perfectly fine to come a bit late as well.
08:05:36 <rainemak> Ok, let's go...
08:05:37 <rainemak> #topic Ofono Updates  (10mins -- asked by piggz)
08:05:47 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar  - Sailor at Jolla
08:05:47 <rainemak> #info <piggz> Sailfish uses the Ofono Telephony stack to communicate with modems.
08:05:47 <rainemak> #info <piggz> The version of Ofono use in Sailfish is quite old, and diverged from
08:05:47 <rainemak> #info <piggz> the upstream project quite a lot. This was possibly understandable
08:05:47 <rainemak> #info <piggz> when the upstream looked stagnant, however it seems to have had
08:05:47 <rainemak> #info <piggz> somewhat of a revival, and has pushed out several release lately.
08:05:48 <rainemak> #info <piggz> Would it be worth re-basing the Sailfish Ofono and plugins on top of
08:05:50 <rainemak> #info <piggz> upstream to reduce the divergence and future maintenance? I
08:05:52 <rainemak> #info <piggz> understand some of the reluctance to use upstream has been around
08:05:54 <rainemak> #info <piggz> the ell library, can you expand as to why this cant be used, it
08:05:56 <rainemak> #info <piggz> doesnt seem like a very large lib to include. I have had PRs on
08:05:58 <rainemak> #info <piggz> sailfish ofono to update it for quite some time, these were created
08:06:00 <rainemak> #info <piggz> by painstakingly cherry-picking each upstream commit that would
08:06:01 <piggz> morning :)
08:06:02 <rainemak> #info <piggz> apply against the sailfish version, but the longer the divergence
08:06:04 <rainemak> #info <piggz> remains, the harder this gets. Upstream has improvements for the
08:06:06 <rainemak> #info <piggz> quactel modem, many code cleanups and improvements, and maybe useful
08:06:08 <rainemak> #info <piggz> for other porters.
08:06:12 <rainemak> jit
08:06:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Indeed, Ofono has started to be painful to maintain and we’ve talked
08:06:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> doing what’s described here. Just rebasing all our changes on top of
08:06:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> upstream, and possibly just starting to use the libell. However, no
08:06:19 <piggz> yes
08:06:20 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> idea yet on the schedule.
08:06:41 <piggz> ok, thats good to know at leaat
08:06:46 <piggz> seast
08:06:51 <piggz> fsck ... least!
08:07:12 <piggz> for info, i have libell packaged and used in my ofono fork for the PP
08:07:24 <dcaliste> For reference, I think you have already some rebases done piggz: https://github.com/sailfishos/ofono/pulls
08:07:37 <dcaliste> Are they still valid ?
08:08:08 <piggz> those are cherry-picks of commits that would apply ... if it was entired rebased they wouldnt be needed
08:08:29 <piggz> if switched to libell, things would be much simpler to rebase
08:08:56 <piggz> here is libell https://github.com/sailfish-on-dontbeevil/ell
08:09:17 <Thaodan> was it that libel was a replacement for glib info conman and ofono?
08:09:33 <rainemak> #info <piggz> Here is libell https://github.com/sailfish-on-dontbeevil/ell
08:09:33 <piggz> something like that yes
08:09:55 <piggz> the devs i spoke to said the plan was to remove glib ... so rebasing would get even harder in the future
08:11:04 <Thaodan> sounds like a lot of nih
08:12:15 <rainemak> timing wise these kind of bigger changes are good to merge after major release (more precisely after branching in OBS)
08:12:47 <rainemak> there always tend to be corner cases that need to be fixed
08:12:50 <piggz> rainemak: sure ... i imaging there would be quite a bit of work to do on the jolla side, re-writing all the plugins
08:14:00 <piggz> Thaodan: at may be nih ... but there may be more to it .. its quite a small lib, intended for small embedded systems iirc
08:15:07 <rainemak> Good discussion but it's time to move on.
08:15:24 <dcaliste> Just for ignorant, is ELL this thing : https://layers.openembedded.org/layerindex/recipe/397464/ ?
08:15:52 <piggz> this https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/libs/ell/ell.git/tree/
08:15:55 <piggz> its a kernel project
08:15:59 <rainemak> I'll give a moment still
08:16:07 <Thaodan> yeah it's the same thing
08:16:19 <dcaliste> Ok, thanks for the pointer.
08:16:27 <rainemak> #topic Restore Sailfish Weather  (5mins -- asked by cquence)
08:16:36 <rainemak> #info <cquence> Will the native Foreca Weather app be restored in the next
08:16:36 <rainemak> #info <cquence> release? Also are there any possibilities to use the native app
08:16:36 <rainemak> #info <cquence> with different configurable backends? User will have to provide
08:16:36 <rainemak> #info <cquence> their own key/credentials for paid services.
08:16:45 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Foreca Weather app is not restored to the next release. Having means
08:16:45 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> to use different backends is something that we’re thinking as well.
08:16:45 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Community raised yr.no as plausible option and it would a good
08:16:45 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> candidate to check how feasible it’d really be.
08:16:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
08:16:46 <Thaodan> strange from my pov where the man power at those projects is already quite low
08:16:47 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> If you haven’t yet disabled, you can disable Weather banner from
08:16:49 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Events view from Settings -> Events View -> Install Weather from
08:16:51 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Store.
08:17:37 <dcaliste> During the time the weather component appeared on Github, I start modifying them to allow multiple providers.
08:18:08 <dcaliste> I'm running with weatherAPI at the moment (whuch has bad forecast, but which is free).
08:18:27 <dcaliste> It would be nice if the components could be published (again).
08:21:03 <rainemak> Having possibility for different plugins would be neat
08:21:41 <rainemak> dcaliste, hopefully soon.
08:21:44 <tuplasuhveli[m]> If I'm not mistaken, GNOME Weather uses yr.no. But it would be nice to give the user an option to choose between different providers
08:21:50 <dcaliste> Great !
08:22:57 <rainemak> I guess this is pretty much covered
08:23:21 <Thaodan> there's a kde widget too that uses yr.no
08:23:28 <rainemak> Let's move on.
08:23:37 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
08:23:44 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
08:26:10 <nephros> hello, I'm late.
08:26:55 <nephros> I don't have a PR yet, but would it be acceptable to file one to package "poppler" private/unstable headers?
08:27:40 <dcaliste> What would be the purpose ? (not objecting, just curious)
08:28:00 <nephros> I have a package queued for chum which needs them to build.
08:29:16 <nephros> See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/poppler/poppler#stable-and-unstable-apis
08:29:37 <dcaliste> Thanks, I'll read their policy.
08:30:14 <rainemak> As there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.
08:30:17 <nephros> Modified package: https://build.sailfishos.org/package/view_file/home:nephros:devel:qt515:itinerary/poppler/poppler.spec?expand=1
08:30:29 <nephros> ok thx.
08:30:46 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (15 min)
08:31:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Few things from our side that we haven’t yet covered.
08:31:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> The next release, 4.6.0 Sauna, was already featured in the FOSDEM
08:31:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 2024 on Linux on Mobile stand. You can easily see that the release #info <Jolla> is not far away. Before that we will have translation round and
08:31:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> inform this separate in the Forum. Stay tuned.
08:31:14 <rainemak> Target would be to get translations synced during next week then have a time period of a week to contribute translation. Let's see how much winter vacation period affects.
08:33:00 <dcaliste> Thanks for these planning info, rainemak. Good to know.
08:33:06 <Nico> Looking forward!
08:33:24 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Ooh, that sounds intriguing!
08:34:49 <rainemak> Like said above, there will be a separate forum post.
08:35:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Second topic, during the community event we had discussions regarding
08:35:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> subscription-based pricing model. To continue that discussion, we’d
08:35:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> like to ask your thoughts.
08:35:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> How much would you be willing to pay from a subscription. Let's think
08:35:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> two different models. Both would have software updates done in
08:35:11 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> similar fashion like we did last year (even year 2022). Few major
08:35:13 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> releases plus a few minor updates. Approximately a year ago we had
08:35:15 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> a vote about this in the newsletter.
08:35:27 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-23rd-february-clat/14752
08:35:35 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 1) Software updates euros / month ?
08:35:40 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 2) Software updates + AppSupport euros / month ?
08:36:38 <piggz> do we get a qt upgrade with that? :D
08:36:45 <piggz> (sorry!)
08:37:10 <Thaodan> thanks for saying it :D
08:37:26 <piggz> heh
08:37:53 <nephros> SaaS? (Sauna as a service)
08:37:58 <rainemak> :-)
08:38:36 <rainemak> There might be even more models
08:39:44 <rainemak> Nobody dare to say anything
08:40:06 <tuplasuhveli[m]> 1.) This one is a bit hard to judge, but maybe 1-3 euros per month? 2.) I'd say anything around 5 euros sounds reasonable to me. To be fair, I personally, would be willing to pay up to 10 euros, because I really want Jolla to succeed in the future.
08:40:44 <rainemak> personally, I'm think something like 1) ~2e/month 2) ~5e/month
08:41:09 <Nico> I mean, it's hard to decide whether we should reply what would be ideal for us, or what would be sustainable for Jolla :P
08:41:09 <dcaliste> While we can have live discussions here, it's a question that makes sense to have on the Forum, so more people will see it and discuss it in an async way.
08:41:19 <nephros> Well, this would mean that users (curently licensees of the SF X Program) would become proper customers right? With Terms Of Service, SLAs etc.
08:41:45 <rainemak> Nico, more like what's your thought on the pricing
08:42:01 <dcaliste> Paying monthly may imply having regular updates (date based ?) otherwise, people may feel that they pay for something that is a bit random to come.
08:42:13 <Crabster> an option for a yearly subscription, perhaps something like how fastmail handle theirs
08:42:17 <rainemak> dcaliste, everything happens in phases
08:42:23 <nephros> I like having AAS available, but I don't use it very often.
08:42:45 <nephros> So I'm not sure I'd subscribe.
08:43:03 <Thaodan> maybe similar to humble bundle where you can  select what to pay starting from a minimum
08:43:11 <dcaliste> Not saying that I would like to go in the direction of date based releases. Just thinking how it could be received.
08:43:44 <rainemak> dcaliste, good point
08:44:07 <Thaodan> I think  release cycles have to be figured out how they can be handled
08:44:19 <Nico> Well; if we keep a similar price to now's model, accounting for inflation, for me it would be something like 15€/year, but I keep my phones for longer than most people, and I don't think that would pay for the staff, etc
08:44:22 <rainemak> Thaodan, not necessarily
08:44:22 <Thaodan> since some might take longer
08:44:37 <nephros> I definitely would subscribe for OBS access though if that will guarantee it will remain available.
08:44:59 <Nico> I tend to put myself in the place of a poor student too often, since I've been one for most of my life
08:45:15 <Nico> But again, they would still have other options
08:46:39 <rainemak> but there are of course things like Forum, this meeting, newsletter, OBS, pootle (maybe weblate some day), software hosting, etc
08:46:48 <nephros> Oh, and, hopefully subscription would mean transferrable licenses, and easier switch of devices?
08:47:34 <rainemak> nephros, it could be so that you close subscription on one device and continue on another for example
08:48:07 <rainemak> and without AppSupport it'd cost 2e/m
08:48:21 <nephros> rainemak: yeaa, so I pay for "one device" not "this device".
08:48:39 <Nico> What's the yearly price of general productivity suites nowadays? I'm unfamiliar with the topic
08:49:25 <nephros> Nico: you mean something like https://www.softmaker.com/en/products/softmaker-office/order
08:51:12 <Thaodan> I have seen people talking about this kind of topic before
08:51:35 <rainemak> Let's start wrapping up! We'll appreciate this discussion and certainly continue this open dialogue with you.
08:51:47 <Thaodan> subscriptions are  a little easier than let's say bug bounties
08:51:53 <Nico> nephros Yeah, any. How much is it in euros? In yen it is 7500/month for 5 devices, which is about 10 euro per device
08:52:35 <nephros> Nico: I see 30, 50, 130, and 100 Euros on that site.
08:52:37 <Nico> (I meant what is the cost in Europe)
08:52:43 <Nico> thanks!
08:52:52 <rainemak> Thank you very much about your feedback!
08:52:58 <Nico> so yeah, about 10/davice
08:53:02 <saltpie[m]> The best Option in my opinion would be to still make the OS a one time Purchase and add a subscribition for updates but also make the updates available for a one time purchase wich is cheaper than the Subscription but still increases in Price with every Update that you did not buy or subscribe to. Sorry for barging in. Also sorry for my bad Typing im on Mobile.
08:53:35 <rainemak> saltpie[m], I don't see that free version of Sailfish OS would disappear
08:54:09 <nephros> Some go with a pay-as-you-like model, like the HumbleBundle.
08:54:13 <rainemak> saltpie[m], further now we have also moment in time to simplify things
08:54:30 <saltpie[m]> Oh sorry, my bad i only thougt about the Paid Version
08:54:57 <rainemak> pay-as-you-like is not necessarily a bad idea either
08:56:06 <nephros> I also like how SDF does it (https://sdf.org), they have layers mixin one-time and recurring payments.
08:56:59 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)
08:57:01 <Nico> rainemak I think pay-as-you-like may be a good idea in the context of our community, actually
08:57:09 <Nico> rainemak Are general topics only introduced by Jolla?. I have a general question about how to contact Jolla about their new direction
08:57:14 <tuplasuhveli[m]> I think the mentioned subscription model has some advantages the current model doesn't have. For example, one could pay 5 euros to test and see, if they can successfully run the Android applications they need in their daily life
08:58:06 <rainemak> Nico, no... general is for all kind of general discussion that you'd like to have
08:58:29 <Nico> Nice! Thanks
08:58:37 <Nico> then I copypaste quickly
08:58:54 <Nico> The feedback form to Jolla about their future AI operations has been closed
08:58:58 <Nico> I had prepared several notes with ideas and resources which may be hepful
08:59:04 <Nico> But was too busy to merge and format them into something more consistent before it closed
08:59:09 <Nico> Is there any place where those kind of things can be sent?
08:59:14 <Nico> Jolla's website only shows mails for business partnerships, job applications and helpdesk
08:59:31 <rainemak> Please ping me via forum
08:59:42 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 29th February at 08:00am UTC
08:59:44 <Nico> ok, I'll create an account :D
08:59:53 <rainemak> ah, so you don't have one
09:00:56 <Nico> I'ts been on the "on day" list for quite a while
09:00:59 <Nico> not proud
09:01:08 <Nico> *one
09:01:27 <rainemak> any objection regarding proposed next meeting?
09:02:02 <rainemak> sounds not...
09:02:06 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Nope!
09:02:11 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th February 2023 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-29T0800Z
09:02:19 <Nico> That will be right after MWC, right?
09:02:24 <rainemak> Thank yo all!
09:02:28 <rainemak> #endmeeting