08:00:00 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024
08:00:00 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 29 08:00:00 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:00 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:00 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:00:00 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-29th-february-2024/18036/3
08:00:11 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
08:00:12 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:00:17 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
08:01:08 <piggz[m]> #info Adam Pigg, community
08:01:16 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today
08:01:30 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones, community
08:01:59 <sledges> #info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for wotsits:)
08:02:02 <Crabster> #info Crabster - lurker
08:02:06 <abr> #info Andrew Branson, sailing by
08:02:32 <dcaliste> #info Damien Caliste, community
08:03:11 <pvuorela> #info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla
08:04:11 <flypig> Hope you're fully recovered Pekka?!
08:04:35 <pvuorela> flypig: quite ok at this point
08:04:45 <rainemak> We have two topics today. Let's have lively discsussions today as usual.
08:05:07 <flypig> Glad to hear that!
08:05:17 <rainemak> #topic Jolla’s retraction of ~ 15 open sourced components in October 2023 (15mins -- asked by olf)
08:05:17 <rainemak> #info <olf> Is Jolla planning the re-release the source code of the ~ 15
08:05:17 <rainemak> #info <olf> software components, which had been released BSD-licensed each in
08:05:17 <rainemak> #info <olf> an own GitHub repository in September to Oktober 2023?
08:05:17 <rainemak> #info <olf> If so, …
08:05:19 <rainemak> #info <olf>     When?
08:05:21 <rainemak> #info <olf>     all fifteen of them, less, or even more?
08:05:23 <rainemak> #info <olf>     using the same BSD license as the first time?
08:05:25 <rainemak> #info <olf>
08:05:27 <rainemak> #info <olf> Background:
08:05:29 <rainemak> #info <olf>
08:05:31 <rainemak> #info <olf> The source code of some of these software components was really
08:05:33 <rainemak> #info <olf> helpful as a documentation how things really work, plus how to build
08:05:35 <rainemak> #info <olf> software using them and how to extend them.
08:05:39 <rainemak> #info <olf>
08:05:41 <rainemak> #info <olf> Furthermore, having the source code of these components accessible at
08:05:43 <rainemak> #info <olf> GitHub allows for writing proper bug reports or even bug fixes for
08:05:45 <rainemak> #info <olf> contributors.
08:05:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Open sourcing more components in general is in our roadmap. Timing
08:05:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> is an open question. Please keep following these meetings and
08:05:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> fortnight newsletters. You’ll hear about this. At the end you
08:05:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> likely (should) see more components available. License selection
08:05:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> happens case by case. There can be cases were dynamic linking/
08:06:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> static linking/IPC (details matter) affects to what license can be
08:06:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> chosen.
08:06:05 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
08:06:09 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Your background thinking is spot on! Documenting, use them (goes
08:06:11 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> hand in hand with documentation), extend them, better bug reports,
08:06:13 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> and even contributing fixes are very much in the core of our
08:06:15 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> thinking as well.
08:06:40 <Thaodan> sorry late
08:06:49 <rainemak> No worries
08:06:59 <Thaodan> #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla
08:09:42 <dcaliste> Open sourcing various components has been on the radar from the start of Jolla compagny, as far as I remember. It happened for some (browser, office document) and that was great. But then nothing came out for various internal reasons that you cannot disclose here I guess.
08:10:00 <dcaliste> Can you say that such internal blockers are now gone or mitigated ?
08:10:16 <rainemak> May ask on this context how familiar you're with roadmap ? I'm asking out of curiosity as I'm think we do need to explain these kind of planning tools at point as well.
08:10:58 <rainemak> dcaliste, and middleware development has been done in open
08:11:30 <dcaliste> Yes, I forgot to mention secrets and various amber components. You're right.
08:12:17 <rainemak> dcaliste, and others
08:12:38 <dcaliste> Sure, non exhaustive listing ;)
08:14:44 <rainemak> dcaliste, we have still some let's say more urgent topics on our table and those need to be sorted out first. I'd expect that during spring you should start seeing new open source components.
08:15:57 <dcaliste> Great, that definitely answer my question. Of course, urgent topics first, no problem. Thank you for your answer.
08:19:43 <Thaodan> Regarding documentation I think it is very important that both the community and we Jolla try to give each some room. Sometimes it can be very difficult to communicate with some. It would help to try to read first, then write and forgive us if we make mistakes or don't have the time to answer.
08:19:43 <rainemak> I've thinking about about community roadmap but it has it's downsides. As this community comes from various background it's not necessarily easy to understand what is roadmap as planning tool versus promises. This can cause misinterpretations. How do you see this?
08:20:53 <dcaliste> I understand roadmap target are moving target (in term of time) depending on which depends on them.
08:20:56 <Thaodan> I think communication on the required work, how easy it is do the work and how community can help is important.
08:21:01 <flypig> It's ironic that the community can't help with the actual process of open sourcing. But we can help with docs once the code is available.
08:21:45 <rainemak> I'll extend this topic by 5mins
08:22:08 <rainemak> Meaning 3mins left :-)
08:23:06 <Thaodan> If community could answer how we can help them to understand the merits of a community roadmap better it would help.
08:23:45 <Thaodan> It would really help to get some in IRC which try to avoid it.
08:23:49 <Thaodan> i.e. olf
08:24:20 <dcaliste> Thaodan, sure, I agree with you about being understanding and forgiven. Mistakes are made from both side and everyone makes some.
08:24:44 <rainemak> dcaliste, indeed! Well said.
08:25:03 <flypig> More info on the roadmap would be really helpful in my opinion. We can all do our bit to emphasise that it's not a promise but an intention.
08:25:34 <rainemak> Thing is that we're sailing together
08:25:49 <flypig> +1 to that
08:26:03 <Thaodan> +1 I agree on that very much too
08:26:25 <Thaodan> I think we are talking to the quire here.
08:26:42 <Thaodan> It's more about those which don't join these meetings
08:26:46 <rainemak> let's see what could be proper timing but we'll come back to this roadmap topic as well
08:27:01 <rainemak> Time to move on
08:27:12 <rainemak> #topic eSIM support in Sailfish OS (5mins -- asked by cquence)
08:27:12 <rainemak> #info <cquence> Can you clarify what is the situation with eSIM support? Is the
08:27:12 <rainemak> #info <cquence> eSIM transparent to the OS and can be used as a regular SIM card
08:27:12 <rainemak> #info <cquence> or does it need work? If additional work is required is it
08:27:13 <rainemak> #info <cquence> something that can then be used across all devices or is work
08:27:13 <rainemak> #info <cquence> required for each supported device to enable eSIM for it?
08:27:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Certainly, we’ll try to clarify. The eSIM support needs development
08:27:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> effort so it’s not that transparent. We have not been looking eSIM #info <Jolla> too deeply, but we’d not be surprised if the implementation would
08:27:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> be hardware specific. Based on initial investigation, changes are
08:27:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> probably needed at a higher level to add support for handling the
08:27:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> QR-codes specific to downloading the eSIM profile, and then more
08:27:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> code would be needed to process the profile, and finally oFono
08:27:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> would need additions to support the eSIM profile for setting up the
08:27:31 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> mobile network. So not a trivial piece of work.
08:28:41 <flypig> I've not been following, but are handsets generally dropping hardware SIM support now?
08:29:17 <flypig> Or are carriers dropping hardware SIM support?
08:29:24 <rainemak> Not yet, I'd say but eSIM certainly help a lot if you're traveling a lot
08:29:53 <rainemak> No need for roaming and associated cost
08:30:05 <abr> It's becoming more popular for a second SIM than an additional slot
08:30:17 <rainemak> abr, very much so
08:30:18 <Thaodan> I fear that something's are moving more in a way were old methods don't work any more like carrier configuration messages.
08:30:37 <Thaodan> Or that carriers implement things in a way which makes competition harder
08:30:48 <flypig> Right, that makes sense. Can you have more than two? Sailfish is quite locked to max two SIMs at the moment if I recall correctly (in the UI at least).
08:31:38 <Thaodan> Maybe two active sims but not all sims are always active?
08:31:46 <abr> I think if it's possible then it's very rare
08:31:57 <rainemak> flypig, you're right. Multi sim is limited to two. I'm not familiar with eSIM myself, but I think it goes like abr said
08:31:58 <Thaodan> The modem only can do one
08:32:29 <flypig> Interesting. Two is more than enough for me right now, so just asking out of curiosity :)
08:32:29 <rainemak> Thaodan, there are two modes: dual active and dual standby
08:32:38 <Thaodan> confusing that abr isn't abranson :)
08:32:51 <rainemak> last time I check dual active was like totally not supported
08:32:58 <rainemak> ^ almost like that
08:34:13 <rainemak> Something more? It would be time to move on
08:34:39 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
08:34:39 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
08:34:46 <Thaodan> Some only support one call sim where the other is data only or something
08:35:10 <rainemak> That'd be even more limited than dual standby
08:35:20 <rainemak> but let's move on
08:35:36 <rainemak> if needed we continue this on the general discussion at the end
08:37:15 <dcaliste> I guess you (in general or mal) are aware of https://github.com/sailfishos/droidmedia/pull/124 and https://github.com/sailfishos/gst-droid/pull/80 ?
08:39:16 <rainemak> dcaliste, thank you for reminding
08:40:02 <rainemak> As there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.
08:40:10 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (10 min)
08:41:14 <flypig> We had reports from a new user that is having trouble getting the fingerprint reader on an Xperia X to scan. Does anyone have any advice I could pass on?
08:41:40 <rainemak> I don't have anything special in mind. Glad about this very good discussion that we had once again.
08:42:27 <sledges> #info Wanted to share this crazy workaround to fix voice echo during calls to Xperia 10 III:
08:42:27 <ExTechOp> rainemak, how have you people been at Jolla/Jollyboys?
08:42:28 <sledges> #link https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/bug_tracker/issues/771#issuecomment-1969923419
08:42:40 <rainemak> flypig, we have done some fixes... hopefully those would help.
08:42:42 <sledges> Sadly you'll have to sacrifice your loudspeaker for this fix...
08:43:49 <Thaodan> I'm working for quite some time on an update notification/search service that allows community ports to have nearly the same device upgrades experience as those have been ported by Jolla: https://github.com/SailfishOS-SonyXperia/cosupdateservice
08:44:02 <Thaodan> #link https://github.com/SailfishOS-SonyXperia/cosupdateservice
08:45:11 <ExTechOp> sledges Do you have any idea how Sony avoids falling into this echoing pit of despair themselves, do they kludge this somehow on their own Android installation?
08:45:21 <dcaliste> Maybe Thaodan, may you explain (again?) what you meant earlier about "a community roadmap" ? Did you mean that we as a community should create a page somewhere where we can put what we plan as contributions ? Or something else that I did not get...
08:45:47 <sledges> ExTechOp: they must be spending more time debugging and patching up their stock Android parts
08:46:40 <dcaliste> Thaodan, looking at your COS update, it sounds great ! Thanks.
08:46:46 <sledges> I.e. their "productisation" team leaves AOSP behind...
08:46:55 <flypig> Thanks rainemak; I'll pass that on! If anyone else has suggestions, please ping me (the discussion is here for ref: https://mastodon.social/@lazarus@fosstodon.org/112009627957795896
08:47:20 <Thaodan> dcaliste: I was referring to what Raine was talking about, how we show things in away that makes it easy to understand for community
08:47:47 <flypig> Thaodan, as we discussed, it'd be great to cover cosupdateservice in the newsletter. Can we discuss it this weekend?
08:47:48 <Thaodan> sledges: I think their productisation team is different from sony aosp
08:47:56 <Thaodan> flypig: yes of course
08:48:05 <flypig> Great, thanks!
08:48:13 <rainemak> dcaliste, more open community roadmap like of thing I'd say
08:48:31 <Thaodan> The trouble is to figure out from where the issue comes and that we don't tend to upgrade ports
08:48:41 <flypig> sledges, can we put something in about your work as well?
08:48:50 <Thaodan> all the fixes go to their latest target port
08:49:02 <sledges> flypig: sure, it was a dealbreaker for many to install SFOS to their x10ii.iii
08:49:06 <rainemak> dcaliste, provided by us, updated by us/together, ... something like that. The actual tool could initially be quite limited
08:49:07 <sledges> *x10iii
08:49:35 <dcaliste> Thaodan, rainemak, ok, I think I get it. The last newsletter was great in that regard : it gave an idea of what is the plan for the next let say 3 months. Which is new as far as I can say. And that is great !
08:49:35 <Thaodan> It have been quite bad on Xperia 1 II too..
08:49:37 <ExTechOp> sledges That is, they are breaking the AOSP license?
08:50:37 <sledges> ExTechOp: AOSP is not the same as for e.g. Linux kernel licence, where you must disclose all source changes
08:50:48 <flypig> sledges, really great work.
08:51:31 <sledges> Crazy amount of banging head into the wall:)
08:51:49 <rainemak> dcaliste, I'm thinking / pondering that we could piggyback "roadmap news" in the newsletter... let's see how that thinking evolves
08:52:06 <Thaodan> I have been creating these meta bugs where I collect all the upstream bugs affecting my port(s). something like this could be helpful for Jolla ports too
08:52:14 <Thaodan> #link https://github.com/SailfishOS-SonyXperia/bugs/issues/46
08:52:24 <flypig> I can only imagine :) Your comment on GitHub shows quite a story :)
08:52:44 <sledges> flypig: to make the kludge-script to be SFOS friendly, we'll just need to add the `scp ... defaultuser@...` line
08:53:01 <sledges> (and devel-su)
08:53:31 <dcaliste> rainemak, that would be great. Don't need to be a mandatory part of the newsletter if there is no change to the previous plan of course.
08:53:47 <rainemak> yeap, something like that
08:54:06 <flypig> Thanks sledges, I'll message you for a bit more info. I have to drop off now due to trains, but thanks for a nice meeting everyone.
08:54:20 <rainemak> thanks flypig !
08:54:28 <sledges> Sure, catch me on socials
08:54:32 <rainemak> nice and lively discussion once again
08:54:32 <Thaodan> I like the script but I fear I accidentally will enable speaker :D
08:54:36 <dcaliste> Thank you flypig.
08:54:51 <Thaodan> flypig: bb see you
08:55:03 <sledges> P.S. A patch to SFOS for removing loudspeaker icon was many times crossing my mind
08:55:03 <rainemak> let's schedule next meeting still...
08:55:11 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)
08:55:13 <ExTechOp> sledges Does Sony actually release updated firmware for eg Xperia 10III hardware?
08:55:32 <sledges> ExTechOp: yes, it received Android 12 then 13
08:56:25 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 14th March at 08:00am UTC
08:56:51 <ExTechOp> works4me
08:56:58 <ExTechOp> sledges Do the blobs that come with those still contain these bugs?
08:57:22 <sledges> ExTechOp: not, because that's where I took the fix from (AOSP 12 blobs)
08:58:19 <ExTechOp> sledges ah, missed that. Could the SFOS install process be updated to use these?
08:58:29 <rainemak> sledges, and thank for the echo tips!
08:58:53 <sledges> ExTechOp: the whole adaptation needs to be bumped, that never happened to a SFOS devices, it stayed on initial firmware
08:59:22 <Thaodan> There were effort to look it can be done but we haven't come to that point
08:59:22 <sledges> There were many community efforts though (sorry for spamming:)
08:59:45 <Thaodan> I have some ideas how to at least ensure that the device won't boot without the right blobs
08:59:49 <rainemak> no objects regarding the next meeting...
08:59:55 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 14th March 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-03-14T0800Z
09:00:12 <Thaodan> Some community/voidanix ported my Xperia 1/5 port to A11 for example.
09:00:47 <rainemak> Thank you everybody! This was a good one as usual!
09:00:51 <sledges> Xperia X newer port was the most famous
09:00:58 <rainemak> feel free to continue :-)
09:01:03 <sledges> o/
09:01:31 <ExTechOp> Thanks everyone! And sledges, your hard-hitting hacking is most appreciated.
09:01:51 <sledges> Sad it took so long, but better later than later than that
09:02:01 <rainemak> :)
09:02:21 <rainemak> #endmeeting