07:00:24 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 30th May 2024
07:00:24 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu May 30 07:00:24 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
07:00:24 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
07:00:24 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
07:00:24 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-30th-may-2024/18640/
07:00:24 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
07:00:24 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
07:00:42 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
07:00:49 <rainemak> ExTechOp, maybe I forgot to update it last time
07:01:05 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today
07:02:45 <direc85[m]> #info Matti Viljanen, community
07:03:04 <ilpianista> #info Andrea Scarpino, SailfishOS user, maintainer of some app
07:04:59 <Keto> #info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla
07:05:10 <rubdos[m]> #info Ruben De Smet, rubdos
07:05:40 <rainemak> Nice number of questions today. Unfortunately one come too late. We'll cover that at the forum.
07:05:52 <rainemak> Welcome all
07:05:59 <rainemak> #topic Sony Xperia 10 IV and V base firmware for Sailfish installation (5mins -- asked by ExTechOp)
07:06:05 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> Please let us know at your earliest convenient time what version
07:06:05 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> of the Sony Xperia 10 IV and V base firmware you want to have at
07:06:05 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> Sailfish install time. Once we get our phones and run them a while
07:06:05 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> on Android (to verify they are functioning normally, as you
07:06:05 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> recommend), the system may want to update itself to beyond what
07:06:07 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> the Sailfish installer expects, and this of course could be
07:06:08 <rainemak> #info <ExTechOp> problematic.
07:06:21 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Yes, thank you. Yes, do inform you as soon as possible. Currently
07:06:21 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> it’s Android 13 based.
07:06:35 <rubdos[m]> rainemak: Uh oh :)
07:07:33 <rubdos[m]> (Oh, it's not mine)
07:08:13 <rainemak> Not yours
07:09:03 <rainemak> Needed to cut time from direc85[m] 's first one as well
07:09:32 <ExTechOp> I currently have Android 14 on a Google Pixel, and I am a bit worried that Sony might at some point also update to that.
07:09:33 <rainemak> I believe we can cover that as well in time
07:09:56 <rainemak> ExTechOp, we noticed that 14 is available already
07:10:16 <rainemak> as a backup there's always Emma
07:10:36 <rainemak> let's move on
07:10:42 <rainemak> #topic The Jolla Mind2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen)
07:10:49 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Long list of questions. Hence, a link to forum.
07:10:49 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-30th-may-2024/18640/3
07:11:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Thank you jojomen & throwaway69 for the Jolla Mind 2 questions.
07:11:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Anything related to the Jolla Mind 2 please join to the established
07:11:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Jolla Mind 2 discord server 10 there’s a mind2 channel. There are
07:11:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> technical people to give you answers.
07:11:03 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
07:11:05 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We’ll pass these questions to Mind 2 team. Thanks.
07:11:06 <rainemak> #link https://discord.gg/K3BaqkuK
07:11:07 <ExTechOp> (Yes, I've messed around with Emma and would prefer to avoid that.)
07:12:08 <rainemak> somehow there's an extra 10... please ignore that
07:14:15 <rainemak> Have you already joined to the discord?
07:14:42 <direc85[m]> I have (finally)
07:15:47 <rainemak> let's take next one...
07:15:50 <rainemak> #topic Jolla Community Phone 2 (5mins -- asked by jojomen)
07:15:57 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 1) How long will it last on a battery charge? (Say, compared to the XA2 or 10III.)
07:15:57 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 2) Does it run a mainline kernel?
07:15:57 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 2.1) If not, for how long is the SoC supported by its
07:15:57 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 2.1) manufacturer?
07:15:57 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 3) Which periferals use mainline drivers?
07:15:59 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 3.1) For those that do not, for how long are drivers supported by
07:16:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> 3.1) the manufacturer?
07:16:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Thank you for your questions!
07:16:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 1) Seems to be lasting long but unfortunately, I do not have
07:16:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> comparison numbers.
07:16:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 2) No, it doesn’t run mainline kernel.
07:16:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> 3) No, it doesn't use mainline drivers.
07:19:45 <rainemak> what a silence...
07:19:58 <rainemak> #topic Licence subscriptions (5mins -- asked by jojomen)
07:19:58 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> What developer subscription options will there be?
07:19:58 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
07:19:58 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> The SFOS app ecosystem relies on individual efforts, with no
07:19:58 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> feasible way to recuperate costs. Making sure an app works and
07:19:59 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> looks ok means testing on many devices, which would make
07:20:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> subscription costs high for the developer. As a result, developers
07:20:03 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> will be incentivized to limit testing.
07:20:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> What kind of models would you like to see? Calling proposals from
07:20:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> those who feel it concerns them.
07:20:34 <rainemak> Above is also good for you rubdos[m] and direc85[m]
07:20:37 <ilpianista> I was proposing discounts based on number of PR merged in OSS projects owned by Jolla
07:21:01 <ilpianista> or "Pay (part of the) subscription for this dev" button in the Jolla Store
07:21:54 <ilpianista> or just implement paid apps in the Jolla Store...
07:21:58 <rainemak> Let's gather feedback and see ideas that you all have
07:22:56 <direc85[m]> Well, I do have a selection of supported devices, and those having perpetual license is certainly a good thing.
07:23:14 <rainemak> ilpianista, I've been thinking in different context some sort of a contributor of a month kind of reward
07:23:33 <rainemak> ^ not necessarily far from you idea
07:24:01 <direc85[m]> For the new license models, a reasonably-priced perpetual license came first to mind...
07:24:17 <rubdos[m]> Maybe integrating LIberapay somewhat into the Jolla Store would also be an idea. IMO those things map rather neatly
07:24:20 <ilpianista> yup, that would also be nice, but maybe "top 3" not just one? I mean with Ruben De Smet and direc85  around is hard to become number 1 :-P
07:25:04 <rainemak> ilpianista, surely that kind of a reward could not given always to the same
07:25:18 <direc85[m]> Then again, how many of us develop features that require Android App Support etc. features? I require Android App Support for my daily driver, but for development purposes with the things I tinker with the free license is actually enough.
07:25:21 <ilpianista> rubdos[m]: I would love liberapay integration, but often I've mailed privately because people don't like "subscriptions"
07:25:30 <ilpianista> and thus they prefer paypal
07:25:43 <rubdos[m]> ilpianista: FWIW, I have *nothing* on the Jolla store myself :D
07:25:51 <ilpianista> direc85[m]: agreed
07:26:13 <rubdos[m]> ilpianista: multiple options is certainly necessary. But I think it should be one of them. Jolla could facilitate a lot of the friction there.
07:26:34 <rainemak> rubdos[m], let's try to figure out how to get Whisperfish there :)
07:27:19 <rainemak> shall we move on... this deserves a forum thread of it's own
07:27:34 <rainemak> #topic Some details on few topics I care (5mins -- asked by ilpianista)
07:27:42 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> Is there any plan to implement these features? If not, could
07:27:42 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> you please opensource the components?
07:27:42 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista>
07:27:42 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> 1) Automatically mount *encrypted* sd-card
07:27:42 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> 2) ICE (In Case Of Emergency) field on lock screen 1
07:27:43 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> Option to scramble PIN layout when unlocking device 1
07:27:45 <ilpianista> rainemak: maybe we should also consider translators here
07:27:47 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista>
07:27:49 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> EDIT: using patchmanager to solve those isn’t a viable solution
07:27:51 <rainemak> #info <ilpianista> as I don’t want to mess with hacky workarounds.
07:27:55 <rainemak> ilpianista, certainly
07:28:02 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/automatically-mount-encrypted-sd-card/12023
07:28:02 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/ice-in-case-of-emergency-field-on-lock-screen/6726
07:28:02 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/option-to-scramble-pin-layout-when-unlocking-device/6944
07:28:10 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Currently these are not in the roadmap. First two would be nice and
07:28:10 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> valuable (surely 3rd one as well). Scrambling the PIN layout needs
07:28:10 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> more thinking. Very valuable input, we’ll consider these to the
07:28:10 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> roadmap.
07:28:41 <rubdos[m]> rainemak: Our side has a plan for that, but we should execute it at some point too :'-)
07:29:52 <ilpianista> rainemak: like for SailfishOS 4.6.x or 5?
07:30:10 <direc85[m]> Those would be nice features to have indeed :)
07:30:23 <rainemak> ilpianista, let's see
07:32:21 <direc85[m]> (I think we could list the current Store incompatibilities as a starting point.)
07:32:41 <rainemak> direc85[m], that's a good starting point
07:32:43 <rainemak> #topic Software licences (5mins -- asked by jojomen)
07:32:43 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> Please elaborate a bit on the good news about the GPL v3 “not
07:32:43 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> being a problem” (announced during Love Day) and the possibility
07:32:43 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> to open source parts (like happened briefly in October last year)
07:33:05 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Let’s clarify. We did not announce that GPLv3 is good. Sami talked
07:33:05 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> about former limitation that we had. Let’s see what future
07:33:05 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> brings :).
07:33:05 <rainemak> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nEC3sVExAU&t=5365s
07:34:16 <rainemak> direc85[m], would you like to take an action there regarding current Store incompatibilities from your point of view?
07:34:44 <rainemak> direc85[m], maybe drafting in forum
07:34:59 <direc85[m]> rainemak: Sure, I'll do that
07:35:07 <rainemak> direc85[m], thank you
07:36:16 <direc85[m]> I'm not sure how to react to the GPLv3 clarification. It doesn't sound like Qt 6 however...
07:37:24 <rainemak> #topic Catching Ctrl-Enter in QML (5mins -- asked by direc85)
07:37:24 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Requested 10mins, giving you 5mins.
07:37:34 <rainemak> #info <direc85> Many desktop chat applications can be configured so that while
07:37:34 <rainemak> #info <direc85> typing a message, Enter on the keyboard makes a new line and
07:37:34 <rainemak> #info <direc85> Ctrl-Enter or Shift-Enter sends the message. Using a Bluetooth or
07:37:34 <rainemak> #info <direc85> USB keyboard with Sailfish OS, it doesn’t seem to be possible to
07:37:34 <rainemak> #info <direc85> catch the modifier keys in QML TextArea item to replicate the
07:37:35 <rainemak> #info <direc85> behaviour. Is it possible to catch the modifiers, and if so, how
07:37:37 <rainemak> #info <direc85> could it be done? If not, would it be possible to have this
07:37:39 <rainemak> #info <direc85> feature in a future release?
07:37:41 <rainemak> #info <direc85>
07:37:43 <rainemak> #info <direc85> PS. Yes, the context is Whisperfish here, but this should apply to
07:37:47 <rainemak> #info <direc85> Messages and other messaging applications too - if they choose to
07:37:49 <rainemak> #info <direc85> implement it. There are plenty of other keyboard-navigation ideas
07:37:51 <rainemak> #info <direc85> I have, but let’s start with this first.
07:37:53 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Sorry Direc85, we just didn’t have time try to sort out this for
07:37:55 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> you.
07:37:57 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
07:37:59 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> That said, we’ll get back to you on the matter.
07:38:01 <rainemak> #info Please ping me if don’t hear from us.
07:39:16 <direc85[m]> Thanks for the answer, I'll ping you at some point if needed
07:41:12 <direc85[m]> I'm also happy to see the question received plenty of likes
07:41:27 <rainemak> Yeap
07:41:38 <rainemak> #topic Delete email action for events view (10mins -- asked by direc85)
07:41:38 <rainemak> #info <direc85> As I receive quite a lot of update notifications via email, and
07:41:38 <rainemak> #info <direc85> just reading the title is enough, it would be handy if there was a
07:41:38 <rainemak> #info <direc85> third action for the email in events view - deleting the email.
07:41:38 <rainemak> #info <direc85> I’m sure others users too would find good use of the feature. Some
07:41:39 <rainemak> #info <direc85> applications already provide more than two actions, for example
07:41:41 <rainemak> #info <direc85> WhatsApp messages offer three actions, so that shouldn’t be an
07:41:43 <rainemak> #info <direc85> issue. Could this feature be added to to Email in a future
07:41:47 <rainemak> #info <direc85> release?
07:42:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> While could fit some uses, we need to be cautious on deleting
07:42:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> content which cannot be (easily) returned. Commonly that’s protected
07:42:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> by remorse items, and notification actions can be even more easy to
07:42:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> trigger by accident. However, the remorse from client side does not
07:42:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> necessarily fit the notification system that well. Also, while we
07:42:13 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> cannot control how many notification actions Android apps use, there
07:42:17 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> should probably be some threshold of going over the two.
07:42:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
07:42:21 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> That said, we see and hear your point of view.
07:43:54 <rainemak> This requires a bit more thinking on how to approach this. In my daily usage I could see benefit of deleting email directly from notification.
07:44:10 <direc85[m]> Being cautious about deleting content is indeed a valid point.
07:44:56 <direc85[m]> Having it as a default-disabled setting would be one option to mitigate it...
07:45:18 <rainemak> dcaliste, we're just talking about delete email action for events view
07:45:47 <dcaliste> I'm reading the back log about it !
07:46:59 <dcaliste> Could lipstick event view page host a remorse item ?
07:47:08 <dcaliste> Lipstick would be the client then.
07:47:57 <rainemak> direc85[m], also the fact that you're doing a conscious decision
07:48:05 <abr> I wonder if that would need the opposite of a remorse dialog to guard against pocket deletions - a confirm countdown dialog?
07:48:49 <direc85[m]> Remorse timer would work, but doesn't protect against pocket deletions...
07:49:05 <rainemak> abr, good question... I'm not personally seeing pocket events view whatever actions but I do use security code and "No delay"
07:49:39 <direc85[m]> Double-tapping the delete button would make the action more conscious, but it would be a new interaction type...
07:50:15 <abr> yeah. that's a good point that requiring unlock would also do it, but only if no delay is set
07:50:34 <ExTechOp> One option could (in the case of email) be to just move it to Trash, instead of actually deleting it off the server, and let "someone else" take care of emptying the Trash.
07:50:50 <rainemak> ExTechOp, that's a good point
07:51:19 <rainemak> I'll certainly note a task / story about this
07:51:22 <ExTechOp> I'd prefer to have things like this selectable.
07:51:25 <direc85[m]> Some Android applications use sliding the item to left, which reveals the delete action underneath. That's been unintuitive to say the least...
07:51:44 <abr> but still vulnerable to you never knowing that you received the email at all. maybe it needs to leave the notif up saying that there was an email but it's deleted until that is manually dismissed
07:51:52 <direc85[m]> ExTechOp: I always delete to trash first
07:52:26 <abr> but that kind of negates the option to delete it from notif in the first place because it's still there
07:53:01 <rainemak> we have topic still and usual PR discussion and general... let's continue brainstorming this in the general topic
07:53:23 <rainemak> #topic Ruby dropped from repos (2mins -- asked by rubdos)
07:53:31 <rainemak> #info <rubdos> The changelog of 4.6.0.11 1 mentioned the removal of Ruby from the
07:53:31 <rainemak> #info <rubdos> SailfishOS repositories. I’m probably the only one using it (the
07:53:31 <rainemak> #info <rubdos> university restaurant menu gets pushed to my Pebble over DBUS with
07:53:31 <rainemak> #info <rubdos> that script), but I’d love to know the reasoning behind this.
07:53:39 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/changelog-sauna-4-6-0/18531
07:53:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We do not have anything requiring Ruby in the stack anymore. For a
07:53:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> long time, it was only a build requirement for some component, but
07:53:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> as that is no longer the case, we decided to drop Ruby to cut down
07:53:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> the maintenance burden, build cycles, etc.
07:55:14 <direc85[m]> Perhaps Ruby could be added to Chum, if a volunteer shows up?
07:55:27 <direc85[m]> Assuming the package sources are available.
07:55:54 <rubdos[m]> That's totally fine and expected. I'll just rewritemy script.
07:56:10 <rainemak> let's move on... let's consider chum
07:56:14 <dcaliste> ruby is still available at https://github.com/sailfishos/ruby
07:56:18 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
07:56:18 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?
07:56:18 <rainemak> As there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.
07:56:20 <rubdos[m]> Sorry Im on mobile atm and my touchscreen is very messed up. I really need that IV image :p
07:56:31 <dcaliste> Do you plan, Jolla, to keep it there, so it can be updated by community efforts ?
07:57:08 <abr> ooh community maintained repos in github/sfos :D
07:57:29 <direc85[m]> Or fork/donate it to github.com/sailfishapps
07:57:51 <rubdos[m]> abr: As long as they don't do that to Rust;)
07:57:57 <rainemak> dcaliste, why not. It can be there in github.com/sailfishos
07:57:58 <abr> probably best to fork though I dare say
07:58:17 <abr> i don't think rust will be going anywhere. gecko needs it and gstreamer probably will soon.
07:58:32 <rainemak> abr, gstreamer already needs it
07:58:47 <rainemak> this is already general
07:58:52 <rainemak> so let's make it so
07:58:53 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (5 min)
07:59:03 <abr> yep. though the component requiring it isn't very important, but the dep is already there!
07:59:16 <rubdos[m]> Yeh, just kidding honestly. Ill leave for now. Texting on the bus is hard
07:59:23 <rainemak> abr, I'm only talking about the dep
08:00:34 <rainemak> I guess that's it for today!
08:00:45 <rainemak> let's schedule still next meeting...
08:01:05 <rainemak> delete events view action thinking could actually go to forum as well
08:01:28 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (2 mins)
08:01:28 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 13th June at 07:00am UTC
08:01:28 <rainemak> Very good discussion once again! Thank you all!
08:01:45 <ExTechOp> Sounds good.
08:02:04 <direc85[m]> Works for me!
08:02:28 <rainemak> that's it then
08:02:38 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 13th June 2024 at 07:00am UTC: 2024-06-13T0700Z
08:02:41 <dcaliste> Thank you for the meeting.
08:02:54 <rainemak> #endmeeting