15:00:11 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 19th June 2025
15:00:11 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 19 15:00:11 2025 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:11 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:18 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
15:00:18 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-19th-june-2025-new-time-slot/23373
15:00:18 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
15:00:18 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
15:00:24 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, Jolla
15:00:40 <Nico> #info Nico, Community
15:00:44 <tuplasuhveli[m]> #info tuplasuhveli, community
15:01:23 <rainemak> nice to have you here as well tuplasuhveli[m]
15:01:27 <rainemak> hello Nico
15:01:38 <mal> #info mal, Jolla
15:01:45 <Nico> I think I just messed up timezones
15:01:54 <rainemak> tuplasuhveli[m] familiar nick from forum
15:02:09 <rainemak> ^ is a familiar
15:02:18 <rainemak> hi mal
15:02:29 <CLMA31[m]> #info CLMA31, community
15:02:59 <Nico> I somehow assumed the meeting would be an hour later :D
15:04:23 <rainemak> While we do not have formally introduced topics, we could discuss on the pulley
15:04:23 <rainemak> menu activation raised by Fellfrosch.
15:04:53 <rainemak> We published two annouchment topics today
15:04:56 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/jolla-community-meeting-live-stream-2nd-july-from-tampere/23493
15:04:56 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/long-term-sailfish-os-updates-free-of-charge-for-all-jolla-c2/23491
15:05:13 <rainemak> let's discuss at least on the pulley menu
15:05:15 <rainemak> #topic A long standing major UX problem with pulley menus in long lists (10 mins -- Fellfrosch)
15:05:21 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> I’m still thinking that a two fingers swipe would be a simple
15:05:21 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> and elegant solution. But of course other solutions are as
15:05:21 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> well better than waiting another decade. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
15:06:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We should put this into a bit of context first. In what kind of
15:06:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> use cases you're hitting this issue, how ofter you're hitting,
15:06:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> would fast scroller help, and so on before raising this as
15:06:01 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> a major UX problem. Surely, this is good food for thought.
15:06:50 <rainemak> There are different aspect as well that must be considered. As a developer,
15:06:50 <rainemak> do you need to be able to disable this proposed behaviour in some cases.
15:06:50 <rainemak> Think a mapping application and using SilicaFlickable allow it to flick
15:06:50 <rainemak> on x-axis and y-axis. You probably would like to utilize two fingers for
15:06:50 <rainemak> pinch-to-zoom.
15:07:20 <CLMA31[m]> I can't participate in the call or don't know if these messages will be visible during the meeting. I would like to ask a light question related to the QT6 update (sorry in advance). Is there a roadmap to move Silica to use QT6 and give up on the QT5.6? I have zero SW knowledge but it seems to at least according the forum discussions one huge problem and personally I try to understand the road blocks better as SailfishOS seems so
15:07:20 <CLMA31[m]> great
15:08:04 <rainemak> CLMA31[m], thanks... let's cover that one after this pulley topic
15:08:14 <Nico> I think I haven't had issues with pulley menu+lists in ages. Usually the pulley menu gives me an option to refresh or otherwise update the list, in which case my scroll position isn't useful to be kept anyway
15:08:50 <rainemak> Nico, afaiu it's in the middle of a really long list where you hit this issue
15:09:21 <rainemak> how do you activate the pulley? answer, currently only by going back to the beginning of the list
15:09:21 <Nico> I would probably prefer to keep like a 2 finger gesture for enabling items, that require you to reach to the top of the phone, since that can be an issue when you 2 hand a larger phone
15:09:58 <Nico> rainemak: Yes, but fast scrolling to the start of the list to activate the pulley in those cases is fine, since I would often have to parse the list from the top again anyway
15:10:25 <Nico> I only think reaching the pulley is an issue if you want to keep your scroll position or don't have fast scroll to the top
15:10:48 <Nico> But maybe has some good examples, where I am wrong
15:11:23 <rainemak> indeed... but with some event filtering there could be options as well... and app developer would be able to choose. However, that would eventually create inconsistency.
15:11:25 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Nico just wrote what I was going to write. But I think there is an example, where it is important to maintain the current (or previous, after activating a pulley meny)
15:11:47 <tuplasuhveli[m]> ...position
15:12:20 <Nico> Well, I would like to see the example, I guess. Because that makes it easier to evaluate how a gesture for the pulley would help :)
15:12:44 <rainemak> by inconsistency I mean that some apps would have pulley working differently than with others
15:12:52 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Yeah, I'm currently reading the previous topic about this to find out if such case exists.
15:13:13 <rainemak> further, is the pulley the right component for that particular app in the first place
15:15:05 <Nico> Some examples are multi selection in the gallery app, at least in the forum thread. I think there moving that to the long press menu would just make more sense
15:15:42 <rainemak> Nico, correct
15:16:01 <tuplasuhveli[m]> You were faster than me, again :D Yes, I think a long press would solve that issue. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with the current pulley menus
15:16:35 <rainemak> good discussion... shall we move on
15:17:04 <rainemak> let's move on
15:17:06 <rainemak> #topic I would like to ask a light question related to the QT6 update (5mins -- CLMA31[m])
15:17:12 <rainemak> #info <CLMA31[m]> Is there a roadmap to move Silica to use QT6 and give up on the
15:17:12 <rainemak> #info <CLMA31[m]> QT5.6? I have zero SW knowledge but it seems to at least according
15:17:12 <rainemak> #info <CLMA31[m]> the forum discussions one huge problem and personally I try to
15:17:12 <rainemak> #info <CLMA31[m]> understand the road blocks better as SailfishOS seems so.
15:17:13 <mal> and also in case there are some global things you might want to do to a scroll list it would be possible to have some bar at the top, not exactly sfos style but bossible
15:17:25 <Nico> Maybe this should just be called out in the documentation about when a pulley might be preferred and when other solutions?
15:17:26 <mal> *possible
15:17:34 <rainemak> mal, to toolbar at the bottom
15:17:50 <Nico> But otherwise finding good cases of where the gesture would be the best option on the forum sounds reasonable to me
15:17:53 <Nico> ye, let's move on
15:18:00 <mal> yes, toolbar could be either at top or bottom, which ever is preferred
15:18:33 <mal> maybe bottom would be more sailfish style, some places have it
15:18:51 <mal> and easier to use
15:19:24 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Nothing really to update on the matter.
15:19:36 <rainemak> ^ for CLMA31[m]
15:20:38 <rainemak> let's continue toolbar discussion in the general topic
15:20:56 <CLMA31[m]> You probably can't say but I will try. Is it more of a financial problem, a human resource one or won't QT allow it?
15:21:28 <Nico> Clearly Qt6 will happen in SailfishOS 6.0, that would be the easiest to remember!
15:21:44 <rainemak> Nico, that's nice one
15:21:47 <CLMA31[m]> Does Jolla think it will happen at some point or will you write it from scratch not using QT at all?
15:22:09 <rainemak> CLMA31[m], let's see what happens ;-)
15:22:11 <CLMA31[m]> Nico: This would make sense😂
15:22:26 <Nico> CLMA31, but also totally made up
15:23:28 <CLMA31[m]> Ah the uncertainty. I just wish to see you thrive so hopefully you have had master plan all the time!
15:23:33 <CLMA31[m]> Nico: Yea thought so
15:24:41 <Nico> If there will be a qt6 launch event at some point for Sailfish, I'll buy a flight ticket to Finnland to attend :D
15:25:11 <rainemak> I guess we have covered this... let's move on
15:25:15 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
15:26:53 <rainemak> personally I don't have any
15:27:08 <rainemak> maybe directly to general discussion
15:27:11 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (10 mins)
15:27:14 <Nico> me neither
15:27:45 <rainemak> maybe worthy here to ask that have you feel about this new time slot?
15:27:50 <Nico> I'm still confused, I really thought the meeting would be 1h later :D
15:28:13 <tuplasuhveli[m]> At least now I feel like I'm awake, which is nice
15:28:19 <Nico> Apart from that it was easier for me to attend and I guess we had new faces
15:28:49 <rainemak> You're right... I'm one hour early :-)
15:28:56 <Nico> Hah!
15:29:02 <rainemak> then we have two of these :-)
15:29:07 <Nico> One time it isn't me getting confused about timezones
15:29:16 <Nico> otoh, I did get confused anyway...
15:29:44 <rainemak> Hi ExTechOp
15:29:45 <CLMA31[m]> At least for me this would be better time slot. Of course don't know how often I would actually attend
15:29:50 <Nico> (And I have stuff to attend to in 30min anyway, because of an unfortunate clash, but otherwise the later timeslot seems great to me)
15:30:40 <rainemak> Do we need another meeting in 30mins still ?
15:31:04 <Nico> Maybe the person who asked the pulley topic will show up?
15:31:09 <tuplasuhveli[m]> Perhaps we'll see if others will join
15:31:13 <Nico> And people who had that time in their calendar
15:31:31 <Nico> Hard to compare the timeslot choice this way
15:31:33 <rainemak> Yeap, we'll need to check that
15:31:38 <ExTechOp> Dammit, I seem to be 30 minutes late?
15:31:50 <ExTechOp> Hi rainemak
15:31:53 <Nico> ExTechOp, we were 30 min early
15:31:53 <rainemak> Nope, you're 30mins early :-)
15:31:58 <Nico> timezones are hard
15:32:32 <tuplasuhveli[m]> I didn't even plan to participate, but I saw the notification of raine's first message and decided to stick around :D
15:32:34 <rainemak> it happens and hopefully not harm done.
15:33:27 <rainemak> we just have a long meeting for the mid summer :-)
15:33:31 <ExTechOp> Hint: the "date" command also has a "--utc" option
15:34:02 <rainemak> ExTechOp, it just me in hurry the whole afternoon
15:34:23 <Nico> Doesn't help, when you are not sure what timezone a date is in
15:34:59 <Fellfrosch> It's bank holiday at my place, so no hurry today.
15:35:29 <Nico> Same here, holiday, so my feeling for time went out the window
15:36:26 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, we'll take your question again for sure
15:36:54 <Fellfrosch> That's fine, thanx.
15:37:07 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, my apologies, we start 1hour early
15:37:26 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, my apologies, we started 1hour early
15:37:47 <Fellfrosch> Ah so I got the time wrong?
15:37:48 <ExTechOp> From the /topic "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 19th June 2025 at 04:00pm UTC: 2025-06-19T1600Z":
15:37:48 <ExTechOp> % date -d "19 June 2025 16:00 UTC"
15:37:48 <ExTechOp> 2025-06-19T19:00:00 EEST
15:37:49 <Nico> We'll just give you double the props for putting in the effort for 2(!) meetings
15:38:03 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, nope, you're on right time
15:38:46 <rainemak> ExTechOp, that was not the issue at all
15:40:20 <CLMA31[m]> <tuplasuhveli[m]> "I didn't even plan to participat..." <- Happened kind of same and I wouldn't have been able to participate in the correct time so this was perfect!
15:40:46 <Nico> So the lesson from this is, 2 meetings are better than one?
15:40:51 <Nico> That sounds like a lot of work
15:41:52 <CLMA31[m]> I have to leave now. I hope everyone has a great mid summer! Thanks to everyone who makes SailfishOS better and more suitable for dummies like myself <3
15:46:59 <rainemak> CLMA31[m], tuplasuhveli[m] : glad to hear that
15:47:29 <rainemak> CLMA31[m], thank you for your participation
15:48:18 <rainemak> and have a great mid summer you too
15:56:17 <rainemak> hi ViGe
15:56:22 <ViGe> hi
15:56:34 <rainemak> and happy mid summer
15:57:21 <ViGe> same to you. Looks like you have been busy today, writing all kinds of announcements :-D
15:57:22 <rainemak> I accidentally started 1hour early... so meeting won't start in a way, it just goes back to beginning
15:58:38 <Saltpie[m]> I was wondering if there is any progress made in WPA3 Support for WiFi connectivity in Sailfisch OS. Since the last time I asked.
15:58:55 <rainemak> Saltpie[m], not really...
15:59:59 <direc85[m]> hello everyone
16:00:06 <rainemak> hi direc85[m]
16:00:10 <Fellfrosch> Hi
16:00:18 <ExTechOp> Hello!
16:00:26 <rainemak> as meeting is already "running" let's just have introduction again
16:00:28 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min) -- 2nd round. Please prefix your name/handle with #info
16:00:32 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, Jolla
16:00:45 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
16:00:49 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela, community
16:01:07 <Fellfrosch> #info Uli Müller, community
16:02:13 <direc85[m]> #info Matti Viljanen, Jolla
16:02:18 <piesalad[m]> #info tfinn, community
16:02:19 <tuplasuhveli[m]> #info tuplasuhveli, community
16:02:25 <rainemak> While we do not have formally introduced topics, let's discuss on the pulley
16:02:25 <rainemak> menu activation raised by Fellfrosch.
16:02:45 <rainemak> we already had good discussion on it...
16:03:01 <rainemak> 2 mins still for intro
16:05:11 <rainemak> all right, let's get going
16:05:17 <rainemak> #topic A long standing major UX problem with pulley menus in long lists (10 mins -- Fellfrosch) - part2
16:05:24 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> I’m still thinking that a two fingers swipe would be a simple
16:05:24 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> and elegant solution. But of course other solutions are as
16:05:24 <rainemak> #info <Fellfrosch> well better than waiting another decade. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
16:05:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We should put this into a bit of context first. In what kind of
16:05:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> use cases you're hitting this issue, how ofter you're hitting,
16:05:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> would fast scroller help, and so on before raising this as
16:05:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> a major UX problem. Surely, this is good food for thought.
16:05:45 <rainemak> There are different aspect as well that must be considered. As a developer,
16:05:45 <rainemak> do you need to be able to disable this proposed behaviour in some cases.
16:05:45 <rainemak> Think a mapping application and using SilicaFlickable allow it to flick
16:05:45 <rainemak> on x-axis and y-axis. You probably would like to utilize two fingers for
16:05:47 <rainemak> pinch-to-zoom.
16:06:17 <piesalad[m]> I read the messages on it. I can get why it would be usefull, to note the scrolling position and return to it. Even though it would make it a little bit inconsistence it would be nice to be able to use the pully menu while not being at the top or bottom. The two finger gesture seams to kill the one hand usability, for holding and using the phone.
16:06:23 <Fellfrosch> I already given up on the two fingers because of map solutions.
16:06:29 <rainemak> As a developer, have you chosen the right component for correct purpose?
16:06:40 <Fellfrosch> I often have this problem. On Mail and on file management
16:06:54 <Fellfrosch> Some apps already have a solution
16:07:05 <Fellfrosch> like filecase.
16:07:12 <ViGe> Fellfrosch: what kind of solution is that?
16:07:15 <rainemak> File Manager probably would deserve a bottom toolbar as there are easily so many actions
16:07:20 <Fellfrosch> That's the solution @ephros proposed
16:07:38 <Fellfrosch> The solution with a fixed header
16:08:00 <Fellfrosch> see over here: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/solving-the-issue-with-pulldown-up-menus/9315/16
16:08:29 <rainemak> on some cases it might be so that action should not actually be pulley action rather in the context menu
16:09:11 <Fellfrosch> Yes but I think search and mark multiple items is in pulley at the right place
16:09:21 <ViGe> The fixed header solution is nice as it's still usable with one hand
16:09:37 <Fellfrosch> but than it's hard to get there
16:10:34 <direc85[m]> a fixed header is one solution, but bottom menu can also help in some use cases. whisperfish doesn't have neither on the chat page, perhaps bottom menu is worth experimenting with
16:10:54 <tuplasuhveli[m]> For example, the community version of File Browser (available on openrepos), uses long-press for various different actions, including selecting multiple items
16:11:06 <rainemak> direc85[m], bottom toolbar (menu) would work for many cases indeed
16:12:01 <rainemak> tuplasuhveli[m], it's tiny little bit overloading of the contextual part of the menu... but yes, can be used as well
16:12:51 <Fellfrosch> I for myself can live with ANY solution. even so I find the fixed header solution quite elegant. Probably we have on any solution the problem, that the developers have to built it into the apps on their own.
16:12:56 <rainemak> tuplasuhveli[m], "global action" vs something that is effective and actionable within the long-press context
16:13:51 <Fellfrosch> A global gesture would solve this problem. But I think it makes it to complicated to find a proper one.
16:15:13 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, how do you feel, did you get a satisfactory answer?
16:15:18 <direc85[m]> the static title takes up some screen space, but it could be hidden when scrolling down and shown when scrolling up. something like what happens with browser for example.
16:15:38 <rainemak> direc85[m], or in the Documents app
16:16:09 <Fellfrosch> I'm satisfied sofar, as you recognized, that there is still a problem with UX. THanx.
16:16:26 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, yes and no
16:16:50 <rainemak> raising that to a major is bit too much I'd say
16:17:36 <rainemak> alright, let's move on
16:17:41 <rainemak> #topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
16:18:13 <rainemak> I don't have any
16:21:25 <rainemak> let's move on to the general discussion part 2
16:21:30 <rainemak> #topic General discussion part 2 (10 mins)
16:22:01 <Fellfrosch> What's the state of Xperia 10 V?
16:22:21 <rainemak> I'd like to understand how does this kind of a afternoon time slot works for everybody?
16:23:03 <Fellfrosch> For me it makes it possible to at least join from time to time.
16:23:26 <mal> a small update on the WPA3 question earlier, there was a work in progress test of wpa3 on sailfish and it worked on some device and with some hotspots but not all so it needs more work
16:23:27 <rainemak> Fellfrosch, not much progress lately I'd say. For the new blobs we'd need VoLTE, NFC and sensors... I am missing now one item I think.
16:23:40 <mal> gps
16:23:43 <rainemak> that one
16:24:20 <piesalad[m]> rainemak: Cameras are already working?
16:24:23 <mal> gps and nfc are pretty much ready but no PRs yet, sensors in half way there or so, volte is still to be done
16:24:50 <Fellfrosch> thanx for this update
16:25:07 <mal> I had camera working in some test I did with the new blobs
16:25:51 <ExTechOp> rainemak This time is a bit more difficult for me, as I have to specifically set up for it after work, instead of just joining during a normal workday.
16:26:46 <rainemak> ExTechOp, but something that you can live with. My assumption is that this would work better for central Europe
16:28:02 <ExTechOp> rainmak I feel the 10V is not ready for production before these rather core functionalities are ready. And unless these happen at some reasonable pace, the phones might not soon even be available.
16:28:16 <piesalad[m]> Sounds promising, although i thought that VoLTE was working but not for everyone. I did not really test it as I still use my other Phone until there is a stable/official non Beta release.
16:28:42 <rainemak> piesalad[m], VoLTE was only working with the previous blobs
16:29:01 <mal> the new blobs use a different volte binder interface
16:29:08 <rainemak> ExTechOp, agree
16:30:36 <rainemak> sounds to me that we're covered
16:30:37 <rainemak> let's schedule next meeting
16:30:41 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)
16:30:52 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 3rd July at 04:00 PM UTC (19:00 HKI time)
16:31:22 <ExTechOp> (And VoLTE was the reason I chose 10V over the Turkish phones, foolishly assuming software would be available)
16:31:45 <rainemak> ExTechOp, but C2 has VoLTE as well
16:32:21 <rainemak> ExTechOp, sorry to hear that
16:32:40 <ExTechOp> (sorry, it was some other network-related feature then)
16:32:59 <rainemak> Objections regarding time slot... Let's give a try to this slot for some time.
16:33:13 <rainemak> ExTechOp, maybe 5G
16:33:21 <ExTechOp> Yep, that was it
16:33:42 <ExTechOp> 3rd July works for me, and let's give this time slot more time to settle down.
16:33:44 <ViGe> Well, on July 3rd this time slot might work for me - and I know for sure that the morning time slot does not work for me so...
16:34:04 <direc85[m]> this time slot works well for me
16:34:25 <rainemak> agreed then
16:34:31 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd July 2025 at 04:00pm UTC: 2025-07-03T1600Z
16:35:05 <rainemak> Thank you everybody! Happy midsummer for all! See you in two weeks.
16:35:15 <ExTechOp> Which is 2025-07-03T19:00+0300
16:35:20 <rainemak> :-)
16:35:26 <ExTechOp> Just in case :D
16:35:36 <Fellfrosch> thanx see U.
16:35:42 <ExTechOp> Thank you, everyone!
16:36:04 <direc85[m]> happy midsummer everyone!
16:36:14 <ViGe> same to you!
16:36:30 <rainemak> #endmeeting