16:00:45 <rainemak> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 15th January 2026
16:00:45 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 15 16:00:45 2026 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:45 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:45 <rainemak> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
16:00:45 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/26416
16:00:45 <rainemak> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.
16:00:45 <rainemak> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
16:00:47 <rainemak> #info Raine Mäkeläinen, Jolla
16:00:56 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
16:00:59 <Nico> #info Nico, Community
16:01:10 <poetaster> #info poetaster, community
16:01:45 <HengYe[m]> #info Heng Ye, community
16:02:02 <direc85[m]> #info Matti Viljanen, Jolla
16:02:34 <sebix[m]> #info Sebix, community
16:03:02 <mal> #info mal, Jolla
16:03:14 <jojomen> #info jojomen, community
16:04:46 <pherjung> hi!
16:04:59 <pherjung> #info pherjung, community
16:05:08 <poetaster> ahoi!
16:05:21 <rainemak> We have 7 topics to cover -- excellent start of the year. Please keep on asking and raising topics on forum.
16:05:21 <jojomen> hi!
16:05:30 <rainemak> let's start
16:05:45 <rainemak> #topic Less extreme Store limitations (15 mins -- rikudou)
16:05:45 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> I have two apps which IMO don’t do anything extraordinary but
16:05:45 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> neither can be currently published to the Jolla Store. One of
16:05:45 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> them is BitSailor and the other is the Beginner’s Guide. The
16:05:45 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> Beginner’s Guide app uses DBus calls to open a store page
16:05:47 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> directly, while BitSailor needs node.js. Especially the DBus
16:05:48 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> stuff is ridiculous, that’s like disabling Intents on
16:05:50 <rainemak> #info <rikudou> Android.
16:05:54 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Thank for your question. One can feel D-Bus limitation
16:05:54 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> ridiculous but this boils down to Sailjail and how sandboxing
16:05:56 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> has been built. Whitelisting D-Bus services or interfaces can
16:05:58 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> surely be done but how it should be done is another topic.
16:06:00 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Allowing D-Bus services in the Store doesn’t help until the
16:06:02 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> sandboxing is fixed. We have been thinking an approach where
16:06:04 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> application developers could somehow rather easily manifest that
16:06:08 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> the app would like to talk to a D-Bus service xyz. Requirement
16:06:10 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> basically would be that end user should be able to understand
16:06:12 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> the needed permission.
16:06:14 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:06:16 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> The Store limitations are defenitely something that we should be #info <Jolla> looking during the 1H/26. This is also somewhat related to the
16:06:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> next topic.
16:07:23 <sebix[m]> Are you sure that opening a link (in this case to another app) does require special permission by the user?
16:08:48 <poetaster> well, in the case of calendar, the Fahrplan solution was to push out a file which could be handled within the limits of sailjail
16:09:09 <ExTechOp> A tangent off this question is, what is the limitation preventing Chum and applications installed it from being in the standard Store? I find it a bit silly I have to install several stores with differing trust levels.
16:09:13 <rainemak> sebix[m], opening a link is different
16:09:25 <rainemak> D-Bus are different as well
16:09:57 <rainemak> ExTechOp, that's more like for the next topic
16:10:18 <poetaster> rainemak, we know that, can harbour be associated with a mime-type to open it?
16:10:22 <sebix[m]> from the user perspective (and app permissions are for this purpose), opening a store page is like opening a link.
16:10:25 <ExTechOp> ✅
16:10:34 <rainemak> sebix[m], having let's say store://harbour/baah could be a solution
16:10:57 <poetaster> rainemak, that'd be cool.
16:11:18 <rainemak> should be actually introduce store url schema
16:11:27 <rainemak> s/be/we/
16:11:27 <poetaster> +1
16:11:54 <Nico> Alternatively you could register to the store http url?
16:11:56 <jojomen> I thought I didn't have an opinion, but that sounds nice :)
16:12:08 <filip> #info filip, community sorry for the delay
16:12:56 <rainemak> store url was a really just an idea but I think it could work... more thinking needing
16:13:08 <rainemak> out of stetson, I'd say
16:14:00 <poetaster> rainemak, yes, but it is a neat work-a-around that respects the boundries and let's the user decide.
16:14:01 <rainemak> any other ideas
16:14:35 <Nico> I like the url stuff, because it would also work for all kinds of other apps
16:14:41 <rainemak> the next topic is interesting as well
16:14:41 <Nico> possibly even websites in the browser
16:14:59 <rainemak> exactly
16:15:53 <rainemak> at the same, in long run we need improvements for Sailjail D-Bus handling
16:18:12 <ExTechOp> Yes, some finer granularity than on/off would be good.
16:19:02 <jojomen> What about defining schemes for services that are sort of system services, but not quite?
16:19:05 <jojomen> Thinking out loud. Map tiles? TTS engine?
16:19:42 <jojomen> WiFi settings (from camera/code reader app)?
16:20:04 <rainemak> ExTechOp, agree
16:20:12 <Nico> Afair there was a forum topic to suggest new permissions in the past?
16:20:33 <rainemak> Nico, also rather easy to contribute ;-)
16:20:48 <rainemak> let's continue with the same theme
16:20:52 <rainemak> #topic Featuring good apps from Chum or Storeman in the Jolla Store (15 mins -- asked by pherjung)
16:20:58 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> There will be various new users and Sailfish ecosystem may be
16:20:58 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> difficult to understand for beginner users. Jolla Store could
16:20:58 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> be a little bit modified to include featured apps from Chum
16:20:58 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> or Storeman. The list should be provided by trusted users and
16:20:58 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> any app listed in the Jolla Store would have a warning with
16:20:59 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> some explanation. This information could be provided by the
16:21:01 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> trusted users or even by the developer. See this thread for
16:21:03 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> further details: Merging Jolla Store, Chum and OpenRepos
16:21:07 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> together
16:21:09 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/merging-jolla-store-chum-and-openrepos-together/26711
16:21:11 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> The idea behind Chum is very good and transparent. As user you
16:21:13 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> have change to check in git SHA1 level what has been built and
16:21:15 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> also audit source code as the source code repository needs to be
16:21:17 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> open.
16:21:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:21:21 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Idea behind trusted users or developer is also interresting.
16:21:23 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:21:25 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> This Jolla Store vs Chum vs Storeman thing will be messy for new
16:21:27 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> users as you rightfully raised. Let’s have open discussion on
16:21:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> this.
16:21:40 <poetaster> https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailjail-and-d-bus-interaction-between-apps
16:21:56 <poetaster> last topic
16:22:26 <pherjung> In my opinion, chum and storeman could be merged together. But that need some works and energy could be set elsewhere
16:23:08 <pherjung> I usually prefer apps from Chum, but that has some restriction too. See sailpipe. So we need to keep it
16:23:15 <poetaster> storeman and openrepos can't be merged if we want chum to be reliable.
16:23:33 <pherjung> I meant the front-end. Infrastructure should stay as it is
16:23:41 <rainemak> I'd personally like to steer Jolla Store towards chum like transparent approach. I'm not stating that we'll do so.
16:23:47 <poetaster> we need package signing (ala redhat/suse) and we can start thinking of a path from obs -> harbour
16:24:00 <rainemak> poetaster, correct
16:24:47 <poetaster> rainemak, I've been trying to support rinigus and piggz for precisely that reason. Long term, it could also be a human resources benefit for Jolla.
16:25:34 <rainemak> we should also think harbour rules probably differently if the store app building and delivery pipeline would be traceable
16:25:45 <jojomen> I'm not sure merging Chum and Storeman UIs would be good, since I think the underlying repositories are very different with different levels of caution needed,
16:26:07 <poetaster> yeah, chum and storeman need a clear demarcation.
16:26:32 <poetaster> I mean, I support the wild west and all, but it is too much of a liablity for Jolla.
16:26:35 <nephros_> #info nephros, community, late-comer
16:26:48 <jojomen> I think of cum as the F-droid of SailfishOS
16:26:54 <jojomen> I think of chum as the F-droid of SailfishOS
16:26:55 <rainemak> any thoughts about the trusted users / developers?
16:27:22 <rainemak> could we
16:27:26 <pherjung> It's important that a team is built and that the task is not done by someone alone
16:28:20 <rainemak> we could indicate somehow in the Store app that an app is delivered from open source repositories / chum.
16:28:40 <jojomen> that sounds good
16:28:45 <pherjung> Other possibility is to bring a discussion in the community-meeting
16:29:09 <pherjung> Someone raise an app and attendes agrees or not
16:29:23 <direc85[m]> Openrepos supports publishing closed source applications
16:29:51 <pherjung> that's a detail. At least if it's mentioned in the description in the Jolla Store
16:29:56 <poetaster> rainemak, like a permanent record from the rpm to the repo which is used, for instance, by the chum web gui: https://sailfishos-chum.github.io/pkgs/AtomicParsley/
16:31:20 <rainemak> however we do it'll take time and development efforts
16:31:38 <poetaster> let's start: https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=blueprint@poetaster.de
16:31:40 <poetaster> :)
16:34:01 <rainemak> almost time to move forward
16:34:08 <poetaster> rainemak, question, go you guys use obs heavily internallly?
16:34:33 <rainemak> poetaster, depends how you look it but yes
16:35:14 <rainemak> mostly due to continuous integration
16:35:59 <rainemak> let's move to the next topic... this Store theme we understand quite well already.
16:36:01 <rainemak> #topic xmpp system integration open sourcing (5 mins -- asked by poetaster)
16:36:06 <poetaster> ok, thought as much. I have several kinds of ci (github actions, etc) but find obs more useful
16:36:19 <rainemak> #info <poetaster> I recall accounts was headed for opening? Is xmpp perhaps
16:36:19 <rainemak> #info <poetaster> possible. As it stands xmpp integration isn’t really usable
16:36:19 <rainemak> #info <poetaster> since both cryptography and groups features are missing.
16:36:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Yes, absolutely xmpp account is an option. Before open sourcing
16:36:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> it, we’ll need to separate the repository so that all relevant
16:36:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> pieces would be in the same repository. Few accounts were split
16:36:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> into multiple repositories in the past in contrast for example
16:36:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> to NextCloud account where all is in place.
16:38:12 <poetaster> Ah, cool. I did some work (packaging, helping ron) and know enough about omemo to get in trouble. Even though it's fallen out of fashion, it's standardized, etc.
16:38:22 <rainemak> we should think about other account types such as sip, fruux, memotoo, etc
16:38:47 <rainemak> as well
16:38:51 <poetaster> yeah, for sure. sip accounts would be very sweet.
16:39:14 <ExTechOp> (Unfortunately xmpp is a bit of a thing of the past these days, but this could well be a stepping stone for other protocols)
16:39:14 <nephros_> and maybe new ones! e.g. github, mastodon
16:39:26 <jojomen> Does an Account encompass more thatn the authentication bits?
16:40:08 <nephros_> jojomen: yes, at least a Settings plugin so you can add it.
16:40:22 <poetaster> ExTechOp, yeah, but I wonder if it might not have a renaisance out of necessity (ie. EU vs. US big tech)
16:40:25 <jojomen> I mean, omemo could be part of an app or there could be a system/background service that takes care of pumping messages in and out
16:40:35 <nephros_> jojomen: and then, depending on what it does, a couple of other things like sync plugin etc.
16:40:37 <rainemak> plus the actual interaction with the actual account backend
16:40:44 <poetaster> omemo is just the double ratchet crypto
16:40:54 <ExTechOp> poetaster I'd say ActivityPub and others seem more likely these days
16:41:17 <rainemak> time to move on
16:41:28 <poetaster> ActivityPub is not chat. And is not inherently useful for secure communication.
16:41:36 <rainemak> poetaster and others, is this one covered well enough?
16:41:43 <poetaster> yes, thank you.
16:41:43 <ExTechOp> poetaster xmpp died because the field became fragmented into mutually incompatible client/server pairs which implemented only parts of the huge protocol stack
16:42:07 <poetaster> No, it became fragmented because of Google, Yahoo and Facebook.
16:42:13 <rainemak> :)
16:42:42 <ExTechOp> Tomato, Tomato
16:42:44 <rainemak> Moving to next in 45mins past if no objections
16:43:09 <poetaster> nope. direction noted.
16:43:16 <rainemak> great
16:44:05 <rainemak> and we'll continue open sourcing components... but we have our hands super full. So, please give us a bit of time.
16:44:27 <poetaster> sure, ting.
16:44:49 <pherjung> by the way, I have a meeting with a journalist this Monday :)
16:45:00 <rainemak> #topic Clarification between shop.jolla.com and commerce.jolla.com (5 mins -- asked by pherjung)
16:45:00 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> Actually, it’s a bit confusing. Do you plan to replace
16:45:00 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> shop.jolla.com with commerce.jolla.com? See Download not
16:45:00 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> available after Jolla shop purchase
16:45:00 <rainemak> #link shop.jolla.com
16:45:02 <rainemak> #link commerce.jolla.com
16:45:24 <rainemak> pherjung, let's take that journalist in the general at the end
16:45:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Sure, we know as well. Getting rid of the old shop.jolla.com and
16:45:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> having the downloadable Sailfish OS images available somewhere
16:45:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> needs more efforts. Unfortunately, we have not had time to clean
16:45:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> this up. Frankly, not even highest priority item whilst same
16:45:29 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> time something that we want to fix as well.
16:45:31 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:45:32 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> But yes problem is noted, acknowledged and understood.
16:46:07 <Nico> How did commerce.jolla.com even come to be, I only noticed it the first time a few weeks back?
16:46:10 <pherjung> I just wanted to be sure. Perhaps a banner on the old shop could help new users?
16:46:22 <jojomen> And a banner in the new shop, too
16:47:02 <rainemak> Nico, we needed a new platform when we started selling and shipping physical products
16:47:47 <Nico> rainemak Ah, thanks!
16:48:05 <jojomen> Meanwhile I suppose we'll just have to canned replies ready for those threads on the forum
16:48:25 <rainemak> jojomen, and thanks for that
16:49:16 <jojomen> de nada :)
16:49:33 <nephros_> jojomen: do you have a link to an example canned reply?
16:49:38 <rainemak> the next topic is probably interesting for many as well
16:49:49 <rainemak> and thanks jojomen for asking it
16:50:16 <jojomen> nephros_: not yet, but I can draft one
16:50:23 <rainemak> #topic Back cover of the upcoming J2, specifically cameras (5mins -- asked by jojomen)
16:50:23 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> To protect front lenses, cameras should be recessed.
16:50:23 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:50:23 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> The renders on commerce.jolla.com show that, when laid down,
16:50:23 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> the phone will rest on the cameras. So it is quite likely the
16:50:25 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> front lenses will get scratched, impairing image quality.
16:50:26 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:50:28 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> How final is the design? Is there any chance to change the
16:50:30 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> design to make cameras at least slightly recessed?
16:50:37 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> The design is not yet final. We just received so called
16:50:38 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> “appearance models” with the real dimensions, weight, materials
16:50:40 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> and feel as-close-as-possible to the actual device. So not to
16:50:42 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> confuse: the appearance model does not have functioning
16:50:44 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> electronics inside yet - actual functional samples are to come
16:50:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> down the road later.
16:50:48 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:50:50 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We are looking into this as well. Having cameras recessed would
16:50:52 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> likely not fix this.
16:50:54 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/jolla-phone-update-design-appearance-models/27024
16:51:16 <jojomen> Hehe, there's my topic ;) and I see at least one more person commented about this re: the latest physical model
16:51:55 <jojomen> wdym, recessed cameras won't help?
16:52:33 <ExTechOp> I should have requested that an attempt be made to have the phone dimensions / buttons match some already existing phone, so more ready-made cases would have been available.
16:52:43 <rainemak> jojomen, you can all sorts of things on your table.
16:53:03 <rainemak> jojomen, you can have all sorts of things on your table.
16:53:12 <poetaster> lenses of a particalur quality also have a given dimension. Better lens, bigger.
16:53:39 <jojomen> That's right. I see there is a thin rim around the lenses
16:54:05 <jojomen> So probably not goint to rest on the glass - but that depends on the curvature, oc
16:54:09 <rainemak> that rim should help a bit but we're also looking other kind options
16:54:24 <poetaster> I'm one of those weirdos that always puts the phone on the table screen down. Don't ask.
16:54:25 <mal> for example Xperia 10 III has a very thin rim around the cameras which is tiny bit higher than the lense
16:54:35 <jojomen> Will the case be thick enough to make lenses a bitmore recessed?
16:54:38 <jojomen> (Given ta
16:54:47 <jojomen> (Given that the case doesn't exist...)
16:55:12 <poetaster> well, all my phones have big bumpers and I'd rather risk a screen scratch than a lens scratch, I guess.
16:55:33 <jojomen> Me too
16:55:34 <rainemak> or maybe one creates 3D printed back cover... what it was called ? :-)
16:56:21 <jojomen> Camera related, but off-topic: Is there a NPU in the SoC? Thinking it could be useful for photo post-processing
16:56:44 <poetaster> I managed to find the same manufacturer for both the xperia 10iii and my volla / gs5 and they both have a 1mm clearance from the the table.
16:57:01 <poetaster> NPU?
16:57:02 <jojomen> Or will the potential NPU be dedicated to Mind2 companionship
16:57:04 <rainemak> jojomen, we'll come back to the more detailed spec in moment
16:57:25 <jojomen> poetaster: NPU ~ AI engine
16:57:35 <jojomen> rainemak: ok!
16:57:47 <poetaster> neural processing unit. I wouldn't put money in that just yet.
16:58:21 <jojomen> :)
16:58:57 <rainemak> let's move on... and continue with the Forum rules.
16:59:01 <rainemak> #topic Updated Forum rules to address AI generated posts (15 mins -- asked by jojomen)
16:59:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> Unfiltered AI posts regurgitate falsehoods, waste effort and
16:59:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> turn threads into an offtopic mess
16:59:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:59:01 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> We are seeing an influx of new members, which is a good thing.
16:59:03 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> It’s probably unavoidable that newcomers post questions or
16:59:04 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> ideas that have already been discussed at length. Even if this
16:59:08 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> is a burden for forum regulars, it is something we need to
16:59:10 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> deal with as gracefully as possible.
16:59:12 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:59:14 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> However, posting unfiltered AI content is a new trend that
16:59:16 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> brings a concentrate of all the normal forum challenges with
16:59:18 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> more harm than benefit. I would like to see the forum rules
16:59:20 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> updated to discourage or ban the practice. Maybe like:
16:59:22 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:59:22 <jojomen> ExTechOp: That is a good thought!
16:59:24 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> > Please avoid posting AI generated content. People will be
16:59:26 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> much more interested in engaging with your original ideas.
16:59:28 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
16:59:30 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> Edit: Active moderation is better than detailed rules. Also, I
16:59:32 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> my allergy towards AI slop resulted in a harsher-than
16:59:34 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> -necessary reaction. I do think it should be mentioned in the
16:59:38 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> Forum Rules, but something short (like the above) would
16:59:40 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> suffice.
16:59:42 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Like pherjung comment in the Forum, we had a discussion under
16:59:44 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> moderators about this as well.
16:59:46 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
16:59:48 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Let’s have an open discussion here as well.
17:00:11 <jojomen> I'll start: I was pretty vexxed at the influx, but I have cooled off
17:00:26 <poetaster> I wouldn't trade all the LLMs on the planet for one nephros. Not a chance.
17:00:38 <jojomen> Actice moderation and active community is better than rules
17:00:45 <poetaster> +1
17:00:48 <rainemak> +1
17:00:58 <pherjung> and rules can evoluate
17:01:10 <pherjung> but they must stay simple
17:01:14 <nephros_> awwww :)
17:01:20 <ExTechOp> The newbie rules should note that LLM's do not produce correct answers, only statistically plausible ones.
17:01:21 <poetaster> pherjung, evolve?
17:01:24 * nephros_ almost blushed
17:01:35 <pherjung> sorry, I used a french word thinking it would work :D
17:01:35 <jojomen> But I still think it is a problem when people post AI plans for action instead of the prompt, and then community members take all the different parts and run with them in a mess of posts
17:01:36 <poetaster> nephros_, heh :)
17:02:05 <pherjung> Actually, you can just ignore it. It's the simplest solution
17:02:13 <jojomen> ExTechOp: that was in my original draft, but I think it might not be useful
17:02:28 <poetaster> jojomen, yeah, you do have a point. I'm sometimes a close reader and I get very distracted/involved in reading that stuff.
17:02:59 <jojomen> Well, ignoring stuff works to a point, but there is also the risk of encouraging more of the same if we don't act on it
17:04:17 <jojomen> I enjoy discussing someones actual ideas, even if I don't share them. That would be the prompt, not the answer from the stochastic parrot
17:04:23 <nephros_> Mods could post a "This topic contains inaccurate, wrong or dangerous information. The topic has been closed." and then freeze the post.
17:05:14 <pherjung> I usually apply slow mode on some topics if I see it getting hot
17:05:51 <poetaster> +1
17:05:56 <filip> yeah, sometimes it does
17:06:17 <rainemak> pherjung, one thing that we should check is the default timeouts on different levels
17:06:30 <jojomen> pherjung: filip And let me add that I immensely appreciate the work you do!
17:06:39 <poetaster> ++2
17:06:45 <rainemak> ++2
17:07:11 <pherjung> thank you very much
17:07:20 <filip> thx. but mostly it's pherjung
17:07:24 <poetaster> we (well, me especially!) are forever in your debt.
17:07:26 <jojomen> Especially that you break out OT posts very early, before a thread descends into chaos
17:07:33 <pherjung> I hope I'll be able to contribute later with code :)
17:07:57 <jojomen> :)
17:08:09 <nephros_> agreed, thank you very much.
17:08:32 <nephros_> It also has the side effect of making the forum (at least look) much more active.
17:08:42 <pherjung> oh yes!
17:08:55 <jojomen> :D
17:08:59 <poetaster> confused. you mean the ai content of the moderation!!!!????
17:09:02 <jojomen> On-topic: It is easier to break out OT posts when the thread doesn't start with an AI plan
17:09:13 <pherjung> it depends
17:10:18 <filip> evil me would rather lock AI confusing salats topics ;)
17:10:33 <jojomen> maybe easier and better...
17:10:51 <filip> with a warning of course
17:11:28 <pherjung> Actually, it's quite easy to handle. I just ask the user to clarify and if he does nothing -> I ignore the topic or I warn the user
17:11:42 <filip> luckily it's sometimes just language barier
17:12:04 <pherjung> the reason why I try to stay polite and friendly
17:12:23 <pherjung> and I have much more to win if I ask friendly
17:12:26 <poetaster> pherjung, polite and friendly are in your nature.
17:12:29 <rainemak> let's move on 15 mins past
17:12:34 <jojomen> The "new forum rule" could be something like "please avoid posting AI generated content. If you have a question, do ask in the forum and get replies from people who care and have subject knowledge.
17:12:42 <filip> yeah you get what you give
17:12:57 <jojomen> This is much better than asking an AI and expecting other people understand the generated reply
17:13:11 <jojomen> le's move on
17:14:05 <filip> there's seems that there is no conclusion what to change
17:14:31 <jojomen> true
17:14:35 <filip> but overall it's allright I guess
17:14:56 <poetaster> Seems like we +1 the moderation approach? And pherung/moderators are up to the challenge?
17:14:57 <jojomen> rainemak: would you be open to amend the Forum rules with something short?
17:15:06 <rainemak> sure
17:15:14 <rainemak> PM me in the Forum
17:15:27 <jojomen> in that case I could draft something for moderators to discuss before possibly including it in the rules
17:15:32 <rainemak> or do we want to draft it here
17:15:42 <jojomen> no, better do that in the forum
17:15:53 <rainemak> agree
17:15:59 <filip> Thx jojomen. that's helpfull
17:16:04 <jojomen> :)
17:16:09 <poetaster> +1
17:16:10 <rainemak> moving on
17:16:11 <rainemak> #topic Support backlog (5 mins -- asked by jojomen)
17:16:11 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> In mid-December, there was mention of a long list of support
17:16:11 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> tickets resulting in delayed replies. What is the current
17:16:11 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> situation?
17:16:11 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
17:16:13 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> A month ago, there was this message asking for patience:
17:16:15 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/jolla-phone-pre-order-campaign-has-started/25772/492
17:16:17 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> …and since then we’ve had major holidays, so it could be that
17:16:19 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> you still have a long queue of tickets to deal with. What is
17:16:21 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> the current situation for support, what kind of delays could
17:16:23 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> be expected?
17:16:25 <rainemak> #info <jojomen>
17:16:27 <rainemak> #info <jojomen> Edit: removed reference to resolved issue
17:16:32 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> We’re dequeue it. As you understand we have of course received
17:16:33 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> new questions after this. In the backlog we have for example a
17:16:33 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> task to improve Jolla Phone (2026) FAQ based on the answered
17:16:35 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> frequent questions. If you haven’t noticed there’s an anchor now
17:16:39 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> as well.
17:16:41 <rainemak> #link https://jolla.com/phone#faq
17:16:43 <rainemak> #info <Jolla>
17:16:45 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Thank you all for your help as well.
17:18:02 <jojomen> This was originally prompted by a thread on the forum, big thank you for sorting that so quickly!
17:19:03 <jojomen> I do realize there are always new questions arriving. Would you say that you are now down to "normal" response times?
17:19:29 <rainemak> jojomen, define what is normal?
17:19:37 <jojomen> Hehe
17:19:58 <jojomen> My context is: Someone posts about waiting "too long"
17:19:58 <rainemak> jojomen, we do have tons of new people joining
17:20:32 <jojomen> There are two things I can do about it: Ask them to have a little more patience, or try to escalate if it seems to be off
17:20:57 <poetaster> I'm hoping Olf finds some time to read them leviticus
17:20:58 <jojomen> rainemak: I know. A nice problem to have, for sure, but stressful I imagine
17:21:13 <rainemak> jojomen, little patience is good... I usually notice when something is escalated in the forum
17:21:38 <jojomen> So, if I have a feeling that things take X time, that will be what helps me decide what path to take
17:22:04 <jojomen> But I don't want to escalate too early, because that will only increase the burden on you.
17:22:20 <rainemak> jojomen, that sounds like a right approach
17:23:05 <rainemak> let's take the File Browser next
17:23:09 <jojomen> I have been in you place, and if I can help remove a little of the heat I will
17:23:17 <jojomen> I have been in your place, and if I can help remove a little of the heat I will
17:23:32 <rainemak> thank you
17:23:35 <rainemak> #topic Harbour exception for File Browser (15 mins -- asked by pherjung)
17:23:35 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> There’s question itself. As it is rather long, please check
17:23:35 <rainemak> #info <pherjung> the link.
17:23:37 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-15th-january-2026/26416/14
17:23:38 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/make-file-browser-official/27097/1
17:24:17 <rainemak> sorry, actually asked by ichthyosaurus
17:24:35 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> The starting point is pretty much covered by nephros.
17:24:35 <rainemak> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/make-file-browser-official/27097/32
17:25:47 <jojomen> That was a long discussion and there seemed to be some confusion/misunderstandings about what Sailjailing does or doesn't
17:26:19 <jojomen> Personally, I think a File Browser is a must-have tool.
17:27:08 <jojomen> And I would expect it to see the same stuff I would see issuing `ls` in the terminal
17:27:09 <poetaster> I think, in the main, it's a question of making ichthyos life a bit easier and confusing users a little less. Oboviously sailjail only allowing XDG dirs is an issue
17:28:12 <rainemak> poetaster, correct and that could be alleviated by introducing "File Manager" like permission or app profile
17:28:37 <poetaster> ah, that would be cool.
17:30:27 <nephros_> app profile would be tailored for that File Browser app specifically. A permission file could be used by more than one app (but would only work from the SFOS realease it is introduced in.)
17:30:40 <rainemak> how to describe "File Manager" like permission is one thing. Creating app profile would be simpler but that would require an exception to the Harbour in-take I believe.
17:31:32 <rainemak> nephros_, exactly like that
17:31:56 <poetaster> yeah, I think a File Manager permission, if it is clear what it MEANS, would be advantageos. I fear it won't be easy to show that in the dialog when an app installs?
17:32:23 <nephros_> rainemak: So would there from the Jolla side be something that would be a No-Go if an app could access it?
17:32:58 <rainemak> nephros_, app accessing what?
17:33:13 <nephros_> a location on the file system
17:34:14 <rainemak> Those links that you posted in the comments would be a good starting I think. I don't have answer yet, needs more thinking.
17:35:04 <rainemak> file-manager-common.profile and let's say nautilus.profile
17:35:12 <rainemak> those did have some other includes as well
17:35:44 <nephros_> Yes, and they are currently not shipped with the Sailfish FireJail config.
17:36:01 <rainemak> nephros_, yes, I know
17:36:22 <nephros_> but placing them there and testing should be easy.
17:36:32 <rainemak> indeed
17:36:47 <poetaster> ah! I missed the nautilus.profile. ah.
17:38:01 <rainemak> I guess, we are done with this topic
17:39:05 <rainemak> #topic Progress in Xperia 10 IV/V ports?  (5 mins -- asked by AlmuHS)
17:39:05 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> The Xperia 10 IV and V ports seems freezed from many months
17:39:05 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> ago. Some users got to use the Xperia 10 V using v4b blobs, to
17:39:05 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> fix the battery monitor, but the camera, microphone (only works
17:39:07 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> in calls) and hardware codecs doesn’t works yet.
17:39:08 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS>
17:39:10 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> I want to know about the progress in these ports, especially
17:39:12 <rainemak> #info <AlmuHS> camera and microphone.
17:39:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> Hopefully mal is able to join and update on this if there's
17:39:19 <rainemak> #info <Jolla> something to update.
17:40:37 <rainemak> Please, rest assured that we'll update when there is something meaningful to update.
17:40:40 <rikudou> Totally forgot about the meeting, am I too late?
17:41:11 <poetaster> just a little :)
17:41:20 <ExTechOp> Also, the time at 18 instead of 19 (Finnish timezone)
17:41:20 <rainemak> 1h 40mins, yeah
17:41:25 <mal> audio recording fix is waiting to be merged, maybe I'll merge it tomorrow, also there is fix to be added for headphone audio
17:42:22 <poetaster> yeah!
17:42:23 <mal> the new blobs also introduce issues with suspending which has been a bit problematic to solve
17:43:06 <rainemak> thanks mal
17:43:11 <rainemak> moving on
17:43:12 <rainemak> #topic Open Pull Requests (PRs) to discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)
17:45:02 <rainemak> I'm happy to move on if nothing here. Likely in the next meeting there will be more after holiday season.
17:45:54 <rainemak> #topic General discussion (15 mins)
17:46:06 <poetaster> ok, next?
17:46:32 <rainemak> Who's joining to FOSDEM? We'll have Sailfish OS meetup but the venue is still open.
17:46:46 <nephros_> Can't unfortunately.
17:46:50 <ExTechOp> Anyone use Danske Bank mobile app? I noticed that pasting a virtual barcode doesn't work: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/banking-apps-on-sailfish-os/18438/217?u=extechop
17:47:31 <poetaster> virutal barcode meaning the hash?
17:48:05 <rainemak> We'd like to have a cozy pub like place... If they are serving food that is a plus, the one that we had last year was quite noisy. That noisiness made it difficult to chat/discuss.
17:49:07 <nephros_> For the Jolla Phone (2026), could the flashed image for the first batch include the 'nemo' user per default? You know, a nod to the good old times?
17:49:31 <filip> @mal: a bit slow for Xperia 10 IV and V. but is there any light on the end of this looong tunnel?
17:50:24 <poetaster> rainemak, that tapas night 2024 (I think) was quite nice. That bar seemed appropriate?
17:50:25 <rainemak> nephros_, only for the very first batch (#1). interesting idea.
17:50:44 <rainemak> poetaster, it was in two floors
17:50:46 <ExTechOp> poetaster I think "virtual barcode" is a Finnish thing, it's basically the same information that is given with a paper bill as a barcode made available as fairly long number, which you should be able to paste into your banking app: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuaaliviivakoodi
17:52:12 <poetaster> ExTechOp, ah, ok.
17:52:30 <ExTechOp> poetaster This way, if you are given your bill via email or as a pdf file, you can just copy-paste that number without fiddling with the camera, and everything should just work, filling in the recipient account, amount to pay, payment date, and transaction codes
17:53:08 <poetaster> ExTechOp, sounds reasonable. Transaction -> hash -> basta.
17:53:37 <rikudou> What's the progress on having the DBus Sailjail be less crazy? Reading through the logs, it seems the conclusion was exactly that though nothing else was mentioned.
17:53:38 <rikudou> Jolla can't possibly whitelist all DBus calls they deem necessary.
17:54:09 <mal> filip: yes
17:54:34 <filip> @mal: thx. can't wait
17:55:01 <rainemak> rikudou, app developer should have means to manifest what would be needed... same time end user should understand what she is granting
17:55:41 <ExTechOp> Another app question: does anyone here use Slack? I have the issue on SFOS that every time I exit one channel, the app seems to reset, reload, and mark everything under that channel as read.
17:55:49 <rainemak> rikudou, after whitelisting all, you could likely do all kind of weird things without user knowing
17:56:19 <rainemak> ExTechOp, i'll note that down
17:56:39 <rainemak> I guess you're referring to Android Slack
17:56:49 <poetaster> rikudou, perhaps something like only making access to services that support introspection?
17:57:04 <mal> ExTechOp: it's just the same as the content of the barcode afaik, if you parse the barcode it's just a long number
17:57:33 <ExTechOp> mal Indeed. However, for some reason on the Danske Bank application it isn't working for me.
17:57:44 <rikudou> rainemak @_oftc_rainemak:matrix.org Doesn't sound very specific.
17:57:55 <poetaster> rikudou, the question is if the issue is with upstream firejail (idk).
17:57:58 <mal> I don't have that bank in use so can't test myself
17:58:19 <nephros_> rikudou, rainemak: I repeat myself, but SFOS should adopt XDG Portals. Is was created specifcally to have well-defined DBus things providing useful things to Sandboxed/Jailes applications.
17:58:21 <ExTechOp> rainemak Indeed I do.
17:58:27 <ExTechOp> (the barcode thing is also a Finnish-only thing, it doesn't support foreign accounts)
17:58:49 <rainemak> nephros_, it was on the list long time back
17:59:05 <poetaster> nephros_, ah, forgot that, too. You sadly must repeat yourself. Thank you.
18:00:06 <nephros_> By the way, there is already one XDG Desktop Portal running on Sailfish OS today: Tracker3
18:00:09 <rainemak> nephros_, but on tops of that you have that app-to-app problem left which would need something as well
18:00:27 <rikudou> In Android, you simply can send intents either to system services or target specific packages.
18:00:28 <rikudou> For querying providers etc. you have to declare specific packages you'll be querying, perhaps that could be the solution?
18:00:28 <rikudou> So here we could be listing specific DBus calls.
18:00:29 <poetaster> nephros_, but that isn't actually in freedesktop, is it?
18:00:58 <nephros_> poetaster: no it's not.
18:01:07 <poetaster> nephros_, ah well.
18:01:29 <rainemak> rikudou, can background service in Android actually implement an intent
18:02:24 <rikudou> What exactly you mean by that? But yeah, you can send data both from and to background services
18:03:04 <nephros_> rikudou: maybe a dedicated DBus service, where apps can "register" their supported calls, and other apps can query the list?
18:03:05 <rainemak> in a way if intent always triggers something for the end user then that itself solves the issue.
18:03:40 <poetaster> it's not really relavent what android has. it's a question of what Firejail permits. nephros_ has a suggestion, I'd have to read the firejail code.
18:03:43 <rainemak> whereas when talking about D-Bus there's no such interaction
18:04:08 <poetaster> rainemak, yeah, the whole point is to get the BUS BACK. in a safe way.
18:04:45 <rikudou> nephros_: nephros_: That could work. That would be equivalent to Android apps declaring their broadcast receivers and marking them exported.
18:04:45 <rainemak> poetaster, correct and I think comparing intents and d-bus is misleading and wrongly understood
18:05:32 <rikudou> poeataster: IMO Android is relevant for inspiration, not for implementation
18:06:04 <rainemak> we're a bit of overtime already
18:06:22 <rainemak> shall we schedule the next meeting
18:06:23 <poetaster> rikudou, I have yet to be inspired by android, but I get what you mean. I need a bus. I'm old. For me bus means the thing on the back plane you plug disks, network, etc in.
18:06:30 <poetaster> No bus. No joy.
18:06:43 <rainemak> :)
18:07:10 <rainemak> #topic Next meeting time and date (2 mins)
18:07:10 <rainemak> Proposing Thursday 29th January at 04:00 PM UTC
18:07:34 <rikudou> rainemak: so, what other protocol for cross-app communication there is? Intents are pretty equivalent to DBus in that regard. Of course Intents do a lot more, but that's beyond the point, no one says we should reimplement intents
18:07:52 <ExTechOp> Where would one submit SFOS feature requests these days? I'd like to have both Wifi hotspot and Location services to have an optional timeout to switch them off if no other host / application is using them.
18:08:20 <rainemak> both https://github.com/sailfishos/issue-tracker/issues and forum work
18:08:35 <nephros_> ExTechOp: Good idea! Bluetooth as well maybe.
18:08:41 <rainemak> +1
18:09:12 <poetaster> rikudou, I think it's just a question of Firejail's interfaces vis. d-bus. D-Bus supports all you've described (via proerperties and introspection and authentication'
18:09:35 <ExTechOp> Thanks, I'll try to submit these on Github. The meeting time sounds good.
18:09:42 <poetaster> +1
18:09:58 <rainemak> that's also right before FOSDEM if there's something to sync
18:10:03 <rikudou> poetaster: true enough
18:10:13 <rainemak> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th January 2026 at 04:00pm UTC: 2026-01-29T1600Z
18:10:37 <ExTechOp> Remember to update the /topic too :-D
18:10:38 <rainemak> thank you all! a great meeting to start this year!
18:10:42 <ExTechOp> Thank you, everybody!
18:10:43 <rainemak> ExTechOp, I'll try to
18:10:48 <direc85[m]> Thanks!
18:10:56 <rainemak> #endmeeting