08:00:40 <flypig> #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 17th February 2022
08:00:40 <sailbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 17 08:00:40 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:00:40 <sailbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
08:00:49 <flypig> #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
08:00:54 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-irc-17th-february-2022/10181
08:01:03 <flypig> I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and stay away from the tiger.
08:01:08 <flypig> #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info
08:01:12 <ExTechOp> #info Otto Mäkelä, community
08:01:32 <flypig> #info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor@jolla
08:01:39 <pherjung> #info pherjung, community
08:01:45 <attah> #info attah, community
08:02:07 <ViGe> #info Ville Nummela, Sailor@Jolla
08:02:20 <fridlmue> #info fridlmue, community
08:02:27 <Keto> #info Pami Ketolainen, Sailor@Jolla
08:04:30 <flypig> Nice to see everyone. It's quite balanced today.
08:05:10 <attah> 4-3 to community \o/
08:05:20 <flypig> Next time... ;)
08:05:27 <TheKit[m]> #info Nikita/TheKit, Sailor@Jolla :)
08:05:36 <flypig> Ahaa!
08:06:31 <attah> Oh well, can't complain about more particiaption
08:06:42 <flypig> Very true!
08:06:48 <flypig> Let's move on to our first question. Good that you're here attah, since it's from you!
08:06:51 <flypig> #topic Calculation of minimum SFOS version in Store/Harbour (15 min -- asked by attah)
08:07:00 <flypig> #info <attah> Continued from the discussion on the forum.
08:07:04 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/apps-that-havent-been-ported-to-aarch64-store/7331/67?u=attah
08:07:11 <flypig> #info <attah> Adding aarch64 packages limits the minimum SFOS version to 3.4 for the other architectures too.
08:07:16 <flypig> #info <attah> Ideally the minimum versions should be specific to each architecture determined by applying whatever magic to the individual packages.
08:07:21 <flypig> #info <attah> From last time the question was brought up it sounded like that was hard to do with the current Harbour architecture.
08:07:28 <flypig> #info <attah> So i would like to ask if it is possible to not count the aarch64 package in current checks - since getting 3.4 as minimum version is just as wrong as 2.0 anyway.
08:07:32 <flypig> #info <attah> Many nice apps are missing for aarch64 due to this.
08:07:56 <flypig> Does that cover everything attah? If so, I can give the answer we prepared.
08:08:14 <attah> And some time yesterday(?) Wordle for aarch64 popped up in store, so something moved?
08:08:19 <attah> Yes, go ahead
08:08:25 <flypig> Yes, something moved :)
08:08:27 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Thank you for raising this attah. There's been a lot of earlier discussion about this internally, and it was useful to be prompted again to review it.
08:08:34 <flypig> #info <Jolla> The Hourbour Masters have taken another look at the backend Store code, and have found a way to accommodate all of the requirements.
08:08:40 <flypig> #info <Jolla> The changes have been deployed, so you can now already upload aarch64 binaries without blocking armv7hl binaries with support for Sailfish OS releases earlier than 3.4.0.
08:08:43 <attah> Wohoo!
08:08:47 <flypig> #info <Jolla> If you run into any difficulties with the version detection, please let us know.
08:08:52 <flypig> #info <Jolla> This is also a good opportunity to remind users that only the latest Sailfish OS release (4.3.0 as of today) is supported and receives updates from Jolla.
08:08:55 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Older releases may be vulnerable to security issues which have been fixed in the latest release.
08:09:48 <flypig> We also have Keto here, who made this happen, in case you have any questions.
08:10:43 <attah> Do you have some insight into how the heuristics work that you can share?
08:11:00 <Keto> It now picks the oldest version compatible with any of the different architecture rpms uploaded
08:11:44 <attah> Nice, good to know - should work fine for almost all cases
08:12:45 <attah> With that i'm happy to surrender the rest of my allotted time unless anyone else has something on the topic
08:12:57 <Keto> It is in theory not the correct way to do it, applying different versions to different architectures does not fit easily in other places in the model
08:13:23 <Keto> And in practice this should not cause any issues
08:14:22 <flypig> If an app is built against the latest SDK, it probably gets locked to something relatively recent anyway?
08:14:38 <attah> I agree... my preliminary suggestion was to do that unless version_magic(aarch64) came out to anything more than 3.4, but indeed this should work fine too
08:14:58 <attah> 3.4 seems to be what you get from recent SDKs, via glibc i guess?
08:15:14 <flypig> Okay, interesting, that's not so recent.
08:15:44 <Keto> Do note that the compatibility there is purely checked based on the Requires that the rpm defines, so it does not guarantee that things actually work
08:15:46 <attah> Perfectly fine by/for me... but having limitations just because "computer says no" is also not nice
08:16:13 <attah> True - but at least in my case it does work
08:16:15 <flypig> Keto, the developer has to do their due diligence?
08:16:34 <Keto> yes
08:17:20 <Keto> for example qml side things don't automatically get versioned dependencies
08:17:56 <flypig> Right, there's no easy way around that.
08:19:20 <flypig> Okay, well, going with attah's suggestion, let's move to the next topic a little early if there are no objections. We can always discuss further at the end.
08:19:33 <flypig> Thanks for raising this attah, it was good to be reminded about it.
08:19:43 <attah> Thanks for the fix
08:19:57 <flypig> #topic Small/low screen mode for the longphones (15 min -- asked by attah)
08:20:01 <flypig> #info <attah> Continued from the discussion on the forum.
08:20:05 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/small-screen-or-double-screen-for-the-long-models/6310?u=attah
08:20:10 <flypig> #info <attah> Would it be possible to get a cropped display mode on the longphones? 16:9 would be especially relevant and should work out of the box with apps and UI.
08:20:14 <flypig> #info <attah> Use-cases include better one-handed usability, producing screenshots in the correct aspect ratio for Harbour, and adapting to possible future video output (Xperia 10 III).
08:20:26 <flypig> Thanks again for the questions attah. Here's our next answer.
08:20:34 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Good idea, although we cannot really give roadmap promises for such new features.
08:20:40 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Technically it is definitely possible, although it would require changes to closed-source UI packages like the homescreen so e.g. external contribution is not really possible.
08:20:46 <flypig> #info <Jolla> When working with the feature phone proof-of-concept we have had versions of the homescreen draw the system UI and apps in a smaller area (and e.g. with a virtual phone keypad below).
08:20:51 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Productisation naturally requires a different level of effort, e.g. to do this in an architecturally maintainable way.
08:21:53 <flypig> That's the answer. Does that answer your question attah? Feel free to discuss it further.
08:22:11 <attah> Sounds good, and yeah -i was afraid it was partially in the closed bits
08:22:19 <attah> I also found this since https://github.com/mer-hybris/qt5-qpa-hwcomposer-plugin/pull/93
08:22:46 <attah> "Support for external displays #93"
08:22:46 <flypig> attah, could you summarise what's behind that link for us?
08:22:55 <flypig> #link https://github.com/mer-hybris/qt5-qpa-hwcomposer-plugin/pull/93
08:23:33 <attah> So a PR to the hwcomposer plugin that can take into account and use external displays... i only glanced at it
08:24:05 <attah> I assume it deals with mirroring only, and i saw some things with geometry that looked like it could take change sinto account
08:24:33 <TheKit[m]> regarding that PR, it is only for older HWComposer (pre-Android 8)
08:24:53 <attah> Oh, i see
08:24:54 <TheKit[m]> some extra adaptation is needed for HWC2 when the first one is merged
08:25:12 <flypig> Is that planned TheKit[m]?
08:26:19 <flypig> I ask because it looks like this is all open, so it could be looked at by the community otherwise?
08:26:45 <TheKit[m]> I don't know if it is planned, but could be nice to have on Xperia 10 III
08:27:03 <attah> Definitely would be :)
08:27:23 <attah> And while you are here... how far away is video output on a device like the Xperia 10 III? (not so much in time as effort)
08:28:49 <attah> Mostly the similar improvement, or a long line of things?
08:29:07 <TheKit[m]> hwcomposer2 part itself is not much, but it will be screen mirroring with current MR and different resolution of main display may cause issues
08:30:31 <flypig> So, it would only be expected to work with 2520 x 1080 displays?
08:31:18 <TheKit[m]> it can be scaled, but then we have either black borders or cropping because of different aspect ratio
08:31:41 <flypig> That still sounds like a nice feature.
08:34:07 <flypig> We have a few mins more on this topic, anything more to add?
08:34:34 <attah> Indeed, already a cropped output is better than none... and then if the os eventually grows a way to get this low display mode, i'd say it sorts pretty much all use-cases
08:34:56 <attah> I think output to 4:3 is mostly academic at this point
08:35:35 <flypig> Academic because it's uncommon, or because those two cases would cover it?
08:35:47 <attah> Because it is uncommon
08:36:36 <attah> A letterboxed version would do in a pinch... and most apps wouldn't know what to do with it anyway
08:37:13 <attah> So at least from my outside view cost/benefit stops looking good there
08:37:23 <flypig> I don't recall what the Tablet aspect ratio was.
08:37:41 <attah> wider than 4:3 at least
08:37:50 <attah> or taller..
08:38:15 <ViGe> it was 4:3
08:38:17 <flypig> Just checked... 1536 x 2048 pixels, 4:3 ratio in fact.
08:38:18 <attah> 16:10 by eye
08:38:21 <attah> :O
08:38:29 <attah> need to have my eyes checked
08:38:36 <flypig> :)
08:38:53 <ViGe> attah: there's a lot of black in the top and bottom, that's why it looks taller
08:39:30 <attah> True, i did look at just the screen but was fooled all the same
08:40:05 <flypig> Okay, we used up the extra time, so we should move on to the next topic.
08:40:09 <ExTechOp> Non-square pixels is common in television, not so much with computers.
08:40:20 <flypig> Thanks for another nice question attah.
08:40:37 <flypig> #topic Duplex Telegram bridge for #saiilfishos-meeting (5 mins -- asked by flypig)
08:40:40 <attah> Thank you for good discussion
08:40:47 <flypig> #info <flypig> During the last meeting we discussed how we could improve the community meetings.
08:40:53 <flypig> #info <flypig> A nice suggestion from pherjung was to make full participation possible via Thaodan's Telegram bridge, which is currently read-only.
08:40:59 <flypig> #link https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2022/sailfishos-meeting.2022-02-03-08.00.log.html#l-24
08:41:02 <flypig> #link https://t.me/joinchat/AAAAAFcbasJX67Fu-aGxxQ
08:41:07 <flypig> #info <flypig> We said we'd look into it, and this will be our chance to give an update.
08:41:13 <flypig> #link https://irclogs.sailfishos.org/meetings/sailfishos-meeting/2022/sailfishos-meeting.2022-02-03-08.00.log.html#l-74
08:41:25 <flypig> So, not really a question, but just an update on where things are at.
08:41:30 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We looked further into what's needed to provide full-duplex support for Thaodan's Telegram bridge.
08:41:35 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We concluded that meetbot would need updating to interpret the <user> prefixes sent by the bridge.
08:41:41 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Since the user assigned to the bridge can change, we've not yet decided how to tackle the issue of impersonation.
08:41:47 <flypig> #info <Jolla> We plan to look at this further in the coming weeks and try to get something sorted by the end of May.
08:41:52 <flypig> #info <Jolla> Either way, we'll set a deadline to give a further update at the 31st March meeting.
08:41:56 <flypig> #info <Jolla> The meetbot code is open source python, so if anyone from the community wants to help with the update, let us know.
08:41:59 <flypig> #link https://github.com/emonty/meetbot
08:42:32 <flypig> In short: sorry, we didn't get it sorted yet, we hope to, but can't promise anything just yet.
08:42:32 <pherjung> I'm not a python expert at all, but I'll be happy to try and help
08:43:14 <flypig> I'm not a python expert either, but the code looked quite clean to me. I think Keto looked at it in more detail though. What do you think Keto?
08:46:06 <Keto> Yeah, so the bot runs Limnoria, and the initial idea is to see if a event filter plugin can be implemented that does some conversion on the messages coming from the bridge
08:47:04 <flypig> Limnoria... This one? https://limnoria.net/
08:47:11 <Keto> yep
08:47:31 <flypig> #info Meetbot runs Limnoria, the initial idea is to see if a event filter plugin can be implemented that does some conversion on the messages coming from the bridge.
08:47:38 <flypig> #link https://limnoria.net/
08:47:52 <Thaodan> flypig we are using this meetbot https://github.com/keto/meetbot
08:48:24 <flypig> Thanks Thaodan for the correction.
08:48:26 <flypig> #info Jolla's meetbout source is https://github.com/keto/meetbot
08:48:32 <flypig> #link https://github.com/keto/meetbot
08:48:39 <Keto> the meetbot plugin does not matter if the message mangling can be done on lower level
08:49:45 <Keto> anyway, if someone wants to take a look at that, you can ask me for more details
08:49:46 <flypig> We hit time on this topic, I thought it'd be a quick one, so let's go to general discussion and we can continue.
08:50:03 <flypig> pherjung, please do follow up with Keto!
08:50:23 <flypig> #info Ask Keto for more info if you'd like to help.
08:50:29 <pherjung> should I create a topic on the forum?
08:51:02 <pherjung> perhaps other people would help
08:51:09 <Keto> sure
08:51:48 <flypig> pherjung, can I give you that as an action?
08:52:13 <pherjung> yes, I do it now
08:52:31 <flypig> Great, thank you!
08:52:43 <flypig> #info pherjung will create a topic on the forum about the IRC-Telegram bridge update.
08:52:56 <flypig> #topic General discussion (20 min)
08:53:32 <piggz> PSA: chum for version 4.3.0.15 finished building overnight
08:53:39 <fridlmue> Thank you, Jolla, for considering the suggestion of one of the last meetings to release an interim bug fix version if needed. This was a welcome surprise for the security issues.
08:54:26 <flypig> #info PSA from piggz: chum for version 4.3.0.15 finished building overnight
08:54:58 <flypig> piggz, that's a rebuild of every package in chum?
08:55:08 <piggz> yes, on 3 architectures
08:55:40 <piggz> 190 packages
08:55:41 <ExTechOp> Yes, thanks for the update. Question from a dilettante: why was this handled as a OS version bump instead of just making a package update, does this somehow make it more widely available?
08:55:58 <flypig> fridlmue, ExTechOp, good to hear it was welcomed.
08:56:09 <flypig> piggz, impressive :)
08:56:49 <Thaodan> ExTechOp: Because SailfishOS branches of every version of the OS
08:57:04 <Thaodan> It's just how we structure the development
08:57:18 <Thaodan> It's really like in the meego/maemo days I think.
08:58:21 <piggz> flypig: less impressive is that atleast one node has now ran out of disk space  ...ping lbt! :D https://build.sailfishos.org/project/monitor/nemo:testing:hw:volla:yggdrasilx:4.3.0.12?arch_aarch64=1&defaults=0&failed=1&repo_sailfishos_4_3_0_12_aarch64=1
08:59:00 <ViGe> Yes, in a sense it was "just" a package update. All package updates come with a version number bump.
08:59:26 <piggz> out of interest .. aswell as the security update, it was mentioned that it makes upgrade to 4.4 easier .. how/why is that?
08:59:36 <flypig> piggz: pinged internally.
08:59:41 <piggz> thx :)
09:00:23 <ViGe> piggz: for some users the repository configuration was wrong. This update fixes it, thus fixing the next upgrade.
09:00:27 <ExTechOp> Anyone dare to give estimates on 4.4 schedule?
09:01:01 <fridlmue> ExTechOp: I was afraied to ask, haha. I would more ask if Jolla would share what are the main blockers ;-)
09:01:30 <ViGe> ExTechOp: Would you rather take "When it's ready" or "soon(tm)" as an answer? :)
09:02:36 <flypig> fridlmue, the best place to look to see what's being worked on is the repo PRs. I'm not sure you'll get anything more concrete than that I'm afraid!
09:02:58 <ExTechOp> I already have a new phone I'd like to install :-D
09:03:28 <flypig> ExTechOp, Xperia 10 III?
09:03:35 <fridlmue> flypig: not that I expected anything else... ;-)
09:03:43 <ExTechOp> Yep.
09:03:50 <flypig> fridlmue, of course :)
09:04:03 <pherjung> Topic is created : https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/update-meetbot-to-provide-full-duplex-support-between-telegram-and-irc/10331
09:04:12 <flypig> ExTechOp, technically you already can.
09:04:37 <flypig> pherjung, many thanks!
09:04:58 <pherjung> My English isn't so good, so if somebody can review it to avoid misunderstandings, could be nice :)
09:05:17 <flypig> #info pherjung created a topic for discussion of the Telegram-IRC bridge update
09:05:20 <flypig> #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/update-meetbot-to-provide-full-duplex-support-between-telegram-and-irc/10331
09:05:58 <flypig> pherjung, looks excellent to me. Thank you.
09:06:05 <pherjung> you're welcome!
09:06:09 <fridlmue> flypig: haven't we seen some 4.4 previews already running on the 10th year celebration in berlin? It looked relatively mature already. So my hope is a very well tested an solid release!
09:06:44 <flypig> Yes, I think you're right fridlmue.
09:07:17 <pherjung> About the 4.4 update, why Jolla couldn't be a little more transparent? Perhaps Community can help with resolving som blocking issues :)
09:08:18 <piggz> one feature missing from the gitlab -> github transition is the lack of the "activity" view which gave a handy overview of what was being worked on
09:08:29 <piggz> was great for spying
09:09:11 <pherjung> like this https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/pulse ?
09:09:26 <piggz> no, project wide, across all repos
09:09:51 <pherjung> oh, much easier actually!
09:10:37 <flypig> pherjung, we do try to be transparent, and we're always getting useful input from the community, it just maybe isn't always flagged as being release-related.
09:11:59 <flypig> I'm sure there was a discussion about github visibility on the forum too, but I forget where exactly.
09:12:32 <attah> This is from there: https://github.com/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+user%3Asailfishos
09:13:15 <piggz> attah: looks like a lot of ofono activity :D
09:13:27 <flypig> How would you describe that link for the minutes attah?
09:13:29 <attah> Pretty good, but closed PRs are not there of course... so maybe the query could be improved
09:13:56 <attah> List of open PRs to all sailfishos (organization) projects
09:14:10 <flypig> Perfect; thanks!
09:14:23 <flypig> #info List of open PRs to all sailfishos (organization) projects
09:14:25 <flypig> #link https://github.com/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+user%3Asailfishos
09:14:37 <piggz> i guess this is the list of stuff that recently got merged https://github.com/pulls?q=is%3Aclosed+is%3Apr+user%3Asailfishos+
09:14:38 <attah> So titles of features, and repos touched can be seen easily
09:14:52 <attah> piggz: yes, good job
09:14:54 <fridlmue> Now the same for mer-hybris and we are on track. :-)
09:15:14 <flypig> #info List of PRs that recently got merged
09:15:16 <flypig> #link https://github.com/pulls?q=is%3Aclosed+is%3Apr+user%3Asailfishos+
09:15:33 <flypig> We're bumping up against time I'm afraid. Any final comments?
09:15:57 <pherjung> Oh, on the forum there is now a tracked tag. Some bug report don't have this tag, does it mean that Jolla didn't see it? Should the community ping Jolla's dev? Or just wait?
09:16:46 <flypig> Pinging doesn't hurt I think.
09:17:05 <flypig> As long as you don't go crazy.
09:17:26 <flypig> Alright, we have to wrap up I'm afraid. Thanks for he great discussion today.
09:17:30 <flypig> #topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)
09:17:34 <flypig> Proposing Thursday 3rd March at 08:00am UTC
09:17:46 <flypig> Any objections to the 3rd?
09:18:53 <flypig> Okay, no objections raised :)
09:19:00 <flypig> #info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 3rd March 2022 at 08:00am UTC:  2022-03-03T0800Z
09:19:10 <flypig> Thanks again all!
09:19:11 <flypig> #endmeeting