08:00:00 #startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th March 2024 08:00:00 Meeting started Thu Mar 14 08:00:00 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 08:00:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 08:00:00 #info Meeting information and agenda can be found here: 08:00:00 #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-14th-march-2024/18132 08:00:00 I am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive. 08:00:00 #topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info 08:00:15 Wow, that was sharp 10:00 08:00:26 Not too many topics today but surely some will take more than proposed/reserved. 08:00:40 #info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today 08:00:46 #info nephros, community desktop portal poodle 08:00:54 #info Ville Nummela - community 08:01:12 #info tuplasuhveli, community 08:01:15 #info Andrew Branson, sailing by 08:01:21 #info voidanix - community, i think 08:01:30 #info David Llewellyn-Jones, community 08:01:46 #info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla 08:03:15 #info Jetset 08:03:44 #info Matti Viljanen, community 08:03:56 #info Crabster - lurker 08:04:50 very good number of participants 08:04:59 let's get going 08:05:08 #topic Increased root partition size on older devices (5mins -- asked by jojomen) 08:05:20 #info There are numerous threads here and in the old forum about people 08:05:20 #info running into trouble after filling up their root partition. 08:05:20 #info @olf has written a good guide on resizing it. However, it’s 08:05:20 #info tedious work on top of the already somewhat convoluted flashing 08:05:20 #info procedure, and low-level work on the storage config can be scary. 08:05:21 #info 08:05:23 #info Link to guide, that also has some links to forum topics about 08:05:25 #info resizing: 08:05:27 #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/problems-when-trying-to-resize-the-root-partition/10563/12 08:05:30 #info Having the SFOS installation image default to a 4 GB root 08:05:32 #info partition (same as newer devices) would make things easier, and - 08:05:34 #info as olf’s guide points out - an SD card can compensate for the 1.5 08:05:36 #info GB lost from the home partition. 08:05:38 #info 08:05:40 #info Would Jolla consider making this change or, if not, what are the 08:05:42 #info key factors against it? 08:05:44 #info 08:05:48 #info A comment from olf 08:05:50 #info …, but not automatically altering partition sizes on extant 08:05:52 #info SailfishOS installations. 08:05:54 #info 08:05:56 #info IMO, this simply requires changing two characters in a 08:05:58 #info Otto Mäkelä. community 08:05:58 #info configuration file and no extra quality assurance beyond review 08:06:00 #info and checking for typos, because the space on internal mass storage 08:06:02 #info (FLASH memory) is always sufficient for this on all supported 08:06:04 #info Xperia models. 08:06:06 #info 08:06:08 #info This measure would alleviate a very common failure mode for 08:06:10 (sorry for being a bit late) 08:06:10 #info SailfishOS upgrades and installing SailfishOS-native software: no 08:06:12 #info space left on root volume. 08:06:14 Sorry there will be longish answer 08:06:18 #info Let’s start from the problem. We’d like to first understand how 08:06:20 #info people end up running out space. What’s causing it? There shouldn’t 08:06:22 #info be anything blocking to increase root partition size for older 08:06:24 #info devices but only for flashable image (no resizing during upgrade). 08:06:26 #info Something similar that we did for newer devices. 08:06:28 #info 08:06:30 #info There are few scenarios that are easy to foresee / understand. 08:06:32 #info 08:06:34 #info From platform developer point of view root partition size can be 08:06:36 #info problematic especially if you’re working on large project(s) and 08:06:38 #info need debug symbols. First thing is to toggle on “Settings -> 08:06:40 #info Developer Mode -> Store debug symbols to home 08:06:42 #info partition” (alternative you can install package 08:06:44 #info jolla-developer-mode-home-debug-location). This way debug symbols 08:06:48 #info won’t consume space from root partition. 08:06:50 #info 08:06:52 #info Secondly using alternative Sailfish app stores might cause 08:06:54 #info problems. Of course, also just installing tons of apps. 08:06:56 #info 08:06:58 #info For apps we are considering something like /opt/apps// 08:07:00 #info application root path that would be out of root partition. Under 08:07:02 #info this application root path, developers should still use & follow 08:07:04 #info Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS) for example like: 08:07:06 #info 08:07:08 #info /opt/apps//usr/bin/ 08:07:10 #info /opt/apps//usr/share// 08:07:12 #info /opt/apps//usr/share/applications/.desktop 08:07:14 #info 08:07:18 #info There are two related goals that should be kept in mind: 08:07:20 #info 1) apps should not be installed to the root partition 08:07:22 #info 2) root partition should eventually be readonly 08:07:24 #info 08:07:26 #info If both of these would be met, then size of root partition would 08:07:28 #info not be that big of an issue. For time being maybe we just adjust 08:07:30 #info root partition for the older devices – we’ll comment this more a 08:07:32 #info bit later. 08:07:34 ExTechOp, no worries 08:08:29 Would somebody have case where you have run of space on root? What has caused it? 08:08:49 waydroid 08:09:01 rainemak: it is always apps, through to library packaging requirements making packages very small. 08:09:04 sorry large. 08:09:34 voidanix[m], ok thank you 08:10:01 nephros, moving apps to out of root partition to let's say /opt/apps would help that 08:10:17 w/ 4GB root you can install very few apps in the container; it installs itself in /opt/waydroid IIRC 08:10:24 I guess, yes. 08:10:49 There's a nice application that lets you visualize the disk space used; Space Inspector. 08:10:57 Maybe /opt/apps could even be something like unionfs, collecting apps from device storag, and SD card? 08:11:00 voidanix[m], it should probably create a symlink from /opt/waydroid to /home/.system/waydroid 08:11:06 this way it'd go to home 08:11:39 Using /opt/apps/ for user-installed applications sounds excellent! 08:11:46 thinking is that whatever is the size of the root partition, it can be filled 08:11:54 One thing that is eating some space from the OS is l10n files. 08:12:14 I agree, moving the app executable dir out of root makes sense. 08:12:15 /usr/share/locale is 80+MB 08:12:16 it would like be a symlink to /home/.system/apps 08:12:45 flypig, target / goal is that eventually root partition would be turned to readonly 08:12:54 Even better :) 08:12:55 I've also experienced it (yesterday as it happens) installing libraries to /usr/lib64. But this was for development; not typical. 08:12:59 direc85 wouldn't /usr/local/ be a better candidate? 08:13:20 flypig, that's platform dev headache :-) I feel you 08:13:26 #info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla 08:13:32 Sorry lost track of time 08:13:47 FDO/FHS people do not like /usr/local 08:14:07 They don't like /opt/apps either.. 08:14:24 true! 08:14:34 #info Extended topic by 5mins 08:14:36 at least one is standardized across basically all distros 08:14:38 What's the situation with apps on a multi-user device? 08:14:42 ~ minute to go 08:14:54 flypig, no difference 08:14:54 I think /opt/apps is a solution for a problem that is self created that will create more problems 08:15:15 App access is controlled by shortcuts? 08:15:33 deduplication and using more of the unused storage should help further 08:15:41 Or everyone has access to all apps? 08:15:43 voidanix Could be. Using /opt/ would keep the separation larger and simpler in my opinion. And in some distros /usr/local/bin and /usr/bin point to the same place. 08:15:45 Another place for the OS that could be reviewed is /usr/share/fonts. That's 33MB, and maybe thinks like the symbola font are not necessary. 08:15:56 flypig, I'm not sure if I'm following 08:16:20 it'd be nice to see the old maemo word 'optification' brought back :) 08:16:22 flypig, Sailfish OS are shared for each device users... app specific data is user specific 08:16:41 have we covered this topic 08:16:47 Using something like /opt/apps// could make per-user applications possible. 08:17:01 rainemak, sorry, I'm describing it poorly, but you just answered me. I was wondering if there are user-specific apps, but there aren't (only user-specific data). 08:17:37 Actually, disregard my previous comment. ~/.local/bin is the place for per-user binaries. 08:17:37 over time already... let's move on 08:17:37 nephros: Symbola is used for is used for emojiis? I think. not sure 08:17:56 #info Damien Caliste, community 08:18:01 Sorry to be late. 08:18:02 Any work like we talk about should not be done before /usrmove is done 08:18:05 Thaodan: yes, but there are better emoji fonts 08:18:35 I'll give 2 more mins 08:18:38 direc85 sure, apps can also be snug under ~/.apps ala flatpak 08:18:48 after usrmove we can separate /usr and /var better 08:18:56 what's usrmove? 08:19:20 nephros: /bin /lib -> to /usr/bin /usr/lib 08:19:20 as this discussion is flourishing 08:19:28 ah that one. 08:19:43 essentially you can remove all files from / that are in /usr and just have /usr as rootfs 08:19:48 discussion drifting quite a bit... 08:19:59 let's do not fix whole world now 08:20:15 sounds like a plausible newsletter topic actually 08:20:27 moving on 08:20:28 #topic RCS Messenging (5mins -- asked by Cryx) 08:20:28 is empty besides /etc and /var can be on a separate volume. The point is that don't add more mess before cleaning up. 08:20:39 #info RCS seems to be at least the new Standard as Apple jumps on that 08:20:39 #info train too (forced by the DMA of course…). On the long road RCS 08:20:39 #info will be the successor of SMS/MMS services. What’s the status for 08:20:39 #info RCS support on Sailfish OS? 08:20:39 #info 08:20:41 #info We brought that topic on from time to time here in the forum (not 08:20:42 #info just my me…), but it seems we never had that in a community 08:20:44 #info meeting. So, the main questions are if there was any 08:20:48 #info thinking/investigation if and how these services could be added 08:20:50 #info to SFOS. 08:20:52 #info 08:20:54 #info To my mind it’s an interesting topic to also now if this might be 08:20:56 #info possible as an implemented always on service like phone and SMS 08:20:58 #info (as, we all know that other native messengers need to run in 08:21:00 #info background to receive messages). 08:21:02 #info 08:21:04 #info As said above I’ll probably won’t make it into the meeting, but 08:21:06 #info in fact I’m just user and no dev and might not really help in the 08:21:08 #info discussion at all. 08:21:10 #info Thank pherjung for your checking what other distributions are doing 08:21:12 #info to enable Rich Communication Services (RCS). No findings. 08:21:14 #info 08:21:18 #info Apple’s jump was not forced by Digital Markets Act (DMA) as 08:21:20 #info iMessage was not deemed as gatekeeper by the European Commission. 08:21:22 #info Actually, Rich Communication Services (RCS) is not even mentioned 08:21:24 #info there. 08:21:26 #link https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/mex_24_785 08:21:28 #info 08:21:30 #info The Rich Communication Services (RCS) has been “coming” around 15 08:21:32 #info years. Maybe now with Apple’s push it could really lift off and 08:21:34 #info GSMA will agree on standard. That said, it’s still a phone carrier 08:21:36 #info protocol just like SMS with similar security model. 08:21:38 #link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services 08:21:40 #link https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/01/what-apples-promise-support-rcs-means-text-messaging 08:21:43 #info 08:21:45 #info We have been looking into this but so far always seen this as not 08:21:49 #info yet mandatory. Effort wise this is huge. Whether RCS would be 08:21:51 #info compatible with current messaging architecture is another big 08:21:53 #info topic. 08:21:55 #info Further, we should think & compare RCS to Signal for example. 08:21:57 #info Could/Should we somehow facilitate deeper Whisperfish integration – 08:21:59 #info maybe we should? 08:22:42 We should! 08:22:43 (just a side note, dammit, why did they want to use the RCS acronym, the world is full of 3-letter acronyms, and they reuse the one for Revision Control System?) 08:23:10 tbh RCS is not better than SMS - the reason it's getting adopted so much is because every phone ships Google Messages 08:23:10 switch to VCS (Version Control system) :) 08:23:15 :D 08:23:18 which is absolutely packed with proprietary extensions 08:23:25 I didn't know apple were going for RCS now. It's been in Google's messaging app for a while so that's going to be important 08:23:35 ExTechOp, hehe, indeed 08:23:55 but sfos messages need to support multi-user chats first. MMS does those. very popular in the US 08:24:01 I think RCS will be necessary sooner or later. 08:24:20 If we would have a connection manager that does rcs for telepathy it would be great. 08:24:22 Thaodan, eventually yes 08:24:23 I remember back when Sailfish started, the "selling point" of the device was thorough integration of the different messaging protocols, unfortunately it hasn't been like that for a while. 08:24:34 yup, when both google and apple use RCS, it's going to be expected to be supported by everyone. 08:24:37 the volte work implemented IMS a bit, which volte shares with RCS 08:25:11 but google uses a 3rd party to provide RCS iirc 08:25:14 abr: Not really. IMS is done inside the modem mostly. Can we do RCS outside the modem using that? 08:25:15 As a Whisperfish dev, I know we'd love to be able to integrate into the OS in a Harbour compatible way. Whisperfish is already highly non-compatible. But that's another topic. 08:25:16 abr, +1 for multi-user chat 08:25:47 I expect apple's implementation to be very barebones, not by choice, but because the standardized spec is 08:25:48 Sailfish OS telepathy was the only one missing group chat ui 08:25:50 Thaodan: iiuc the modem provides the auth tokens for RCS 08:25:57 abr: ah thanks 08:25:58 through ims 08:26:07 same for the wifi calling stuff 08:26:17 vowifi 08:26:27 I think a requirement for rcs would be that all the volte stuff is available for all devices not just Jolla devices. 08:26:48 my ports are volte capable but dont get access to them 08:26:52 not even sure if that's possible. it's all super proprietary isn't it 08:28:03 abr, these are all big items and I can almost surely say that we cannot pull them off this year... maybe plausible to get some of them done by doing together with you all 08:28:19 That would be a great idea. 08:28:24 huge amount of work. might be good to try to do it with other distros 08:28:35 If we can implement some of the enables for the community that would be great 08:28:41 abr: agreed 08:28:49 abr, I thought the same regarding rcs 08:29:07 this apple news is good motivation 08:29:22 however I wonder how can the work be shared in hybris vs mainline stacks 08:29:35 next by nephros is long one 08:29:38 I think Jolla should be aiming to provide interfaces for others to add things to. A messaging interface that apps can plug in to (so messaging apps don't have to run services), and which different backends can attach to. 08:29:42 plus it has to be independent of the network manager involved 08:30:03 flypig: that's telepathy and the accounts framework.. 08:30:13 but both a a nono in harbour 08:30:15 multiuser chats for MMS would be really good baby step. need to know how those look 08:30:18 ... and libsocialcache to a degree 08:30:18 alright, let's move on 08:30:37 ping me on irc if help is needed :) 08:30:43 if that can be done in telepathy, then the likes of signal/whisperfish could be integrated too :) 08:30:50 #topic XDG Desktop Portals (10mins -- asked by nephros) 08:30:50 #info Sorry for the wall-of text below. Most of it is informational 08:30:50 #info -only/General Discussion, specific questions to Jollyboys in 08:30:50 #info Part 2, below. 08:30:50 #info Too long post, so here’s a link to the post: 08:30:51 #link https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/community-meeting-on-14th-march-2024/18132/7 08:31:01 abr, agreed! 08:31:12 abr, yeap 08:31:17 great work on the portal so far imo 08:31:36 #info Part 1 Informational: State of the PoC 08:31:36 #info Good to see progress! 08:31:36 #info Part 2 Questions to Jollyboys 08:31:36 #info a) Regarding naming, we’d propose to go with Sailfish as the 08:31:36 #info implementation will eventually be Sailfish OS specific. Whilst this 08:31:37 #info link regarding coding conventions points to apps it applies well 08:31:39 #info for platform development as well. 08:31:41 #link https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Apps/Coding_Conventions/ 08:31:43 #info So, D-Bus names org.sailfishos -prefix, use namespace Sailfish 08:31:45 #info Amber is meant for platform agnostic components. 08:31:49 #info 08:31:51 #info b) At this point LGPLv3+ is still problematic. If plausible, would 08:31:53 #info be simpler to rewrite those sources pulling in LGPLv3+ and go with 08:31:55 #info a compatible license. 08:31:57