#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2014-01-19

artemmaAard: I don't know much about pkcon and version. So whats the right way? Or both?00:00
Aardartemma: 'version' is just a shellscript wrapping pkcon (amongst other things)00:00
artemmaokay, so if I want more logs, I better to run pkcon then00:01
Aardpkcon get-updates should give a list, and do nothing else, while version --dup tells pkcon do do the update00:01
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artemmaso which line? get-updates or get-distro-upgrades? or both?00:01
Aardno, version --dup will give you a list of packages, but only _after_ it installed it00:01
Quualways nice to have customer service at 2am00:02
Aardversion --dup does pkcon refresh; pkcon upgrade-system jolla-configuration-sbj complete (you get the idea why I did that shortcut? :p)00:02
artemmayes, I am also excited about IRC support, many jolla and not jolla people helped me a lot here00:02
* artemma was always finding a striking contrast between IRC atmosphere and official Jolla comms to be honest00:03
QuuAard: btw, if you want/need to take a look at my phone, i might have day off next week00:03
artemmawell, retrying version --dup then00:03
Quumy job is bit retarded, they might call me 2h before work starts :p00:03
AardQuu: it'll be up to sage/stskeeps to decide that, they are doing the investigation into that issue00:04
Quuok :)00:04
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Nicd-is there a new update?!00:07
Quuno00:07
AardNicd-: you need to wait a bit longer :)00:08
Quubut we need everything now00:08
Nicd-oh :(00:08
Nicd-just read "artemma installed latest official firmware update"00:08
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artemmaAard: version --dup completed and from the list I see only harbour apps updates00:09
artemmano system updates00:09
Quuyeah, were probably harbour apps here too00:09
artemmaso I basically updated all store apps00:09
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Quuatleast warehouse or whatever and mitakuuluu00:09
artemmaIncluding the downgrade of my wonderfull Flashlight with control-from-app-cover to the official version that shuts light off when you minimize the app :)00:10
Aardartemma: ok, so at least we know that update didn't fail :)00:10
Morpog_artemma, I tried the app and it works as intended, though I guess I won't use it that much, as flicking through my 4 apps pages is still faster than launching and typing00:12
* artemma thinking on if quick launcher could read app list even faster… I can cache the app list00:13
artemmaMorpog_: do you think it would influence if launcher was blazing fast?00:13
artemmaor the whole idea is clumsy?00:13
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TemeVartemma: why don't you publish your apps at openrepos?00:14
* artemma wants fast track for his apps… I mean for very useful apps from devs that are known to submit high quality code :)00:14
Morpog_the idea is not bad, just not for every user out there00:14
Morpog_with more apps and screens it could be great for some users00:15
artemmaMorpog_: that's what I am trying to understand. What's the use case and why it doesn't match yours00:15
artemmajust windering00:15
Morpog_although with folder support sometime in future it could be less needed00:15
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* artemma notices for himself, that milliseconds matter. If it was two times faster, maybe I would use it more myself00:15
Morpog_launching an app quickly is the use case00:15
Morpog_flicking though my well ordered app grid is faster for me00:16
artemmaso swiping and looking for you is faster than launcher and typing, got it. Now the question is what could be speeded up if anything.00:16
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Morpog_integration into jolla launcher, but you cannot do that :)00:16
artemmalike the launching itself can be speeded up for sure, but typing on a keyboard is still typing on a keyboard00:16
artemmatrue, there are no widgets for home screen00:17
TemeVwith vkb anything that requires typing is slow and clumsy00:17
artemmahmm, cover page can contain any qml, TextEdit too possibly :)00:17
Morpog_so, as I said, it may be a great app for other users00:17
Morpog_like with messy grid with unordered apps and lots of apps installed00:17
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artemmaTemeV: I don't want to care about openrepos support. I am only motivated to do harbour-compatible stuff anyway00:18
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TemeVopenrepos is just faster way to publish apps00:19
artemmahmm, flashlight with cover control could go to openrepos actually while I am figuring out the proper way to do it for harbout00:19
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artemmaTemeV: few days don't matter, extra headache from synchronization and support do00:19
artemmawhen I want to get immediate satisfaction kick few days before harbour, I can get it by posting link here and on twitter00:20
Morpog_openrepos has stats too btw ;)00:20
artemmaand I actually get more then from openrepos this way as bit.ly provides stats, openrepos to my understanding doesn't00:20
artemmaah, ok, didn't realize it00:21
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TemeVok00:22
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artemmaHey, there's MeeCast available on OpenRepos!00:31
* artemma went to try it00:31
Quudidnt even work here00:32
TemeVMeeCast for Jolla? Why it is not JoCast or SailCast? :)00:32
Quudid not load any weather info00:32
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Quutried couple diffrent cities in diffrent continents00:32
artemmaQuu: tried clicking check for updates?00:34
Quuyes00:34
artemmaworks for weather.com and Helsinki for me00:34
Quudidnt say anything00:34
artemmalooking at the forecast is depressing though00:35
Quuseems like using it disconnects wlan00:35
Morpog_quu there is an update for that bug in openrepos00:35
Quuok, letssee00:35
Morpog_you need to delete all citys after update00:36
Quui have latest version00:36
TemeVyr.no and tampere seems to work ok00:37
Quuneed to try to update when im sober :p00:37
TemeVit even promises quite decent weather00:37
TemeV"about" is the first thing at the pulley menu00:39
TemeVI'm not sure if that is the most important thing... :)00:39
TemeVthere is no icon for meecast00:41
TemeVis just me or do you have the same bug?00:41
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Quuon launcher?00:44
Quui have icon00:45
TemeVyou had installed same earlier version?00:47
TemeV*some00:47
Quumaybe00:47
Quunot sure00:47
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Quuno, probably not00:49
* artemma reads bad comments about android apps in store again. IMO it's really not about Android, but about quality of Android support on Jolla. Android apps on BB10 are just fine, because they are almost like native ones. Android on Jolla.. often doesn't even start if you happen to have both Browser and Maps running. No surprise people want less of this poor experience00:50
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SpeedEvilOn a related matter.01:16
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SpeedEvilIs there any way to make an android app more 'jolla compatible' - or is it forever going to be different.01:16
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javispedroI have no problems with Android programs01:59
javispedroin fact, I once realized that I had hit some bug where I could not slide out the aliendalvik window...02:00
javispedroand didn't realize until after a few minutes....02:00
* javispedro finds that very worrying.02:00
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fluxwell, running >1 android app at the same time in jolla isn't a very jolla-like experience08:24
fluxI think there's potential in faking it :)08:25
fluxbut actually that's my only problem with the android support.. (barring bugs and unsupported features)08:25
* tbr managed to reduce his need for android apps to g+ and ingress, everything else I have native replacements for.08:27
Quueww g+ :p08:29
Nicd-G+ is nice, the worst part is that they don't have an API08:30
* tbr likes it for the embedded linux crowd hanging out there08:30
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AL13Ni'm new to QML, i have a page with a ListView ( a model) and a page with ListDetail... how can i, in the ListDetail page, access the ListModel (or at least the current item?)08:40
tbr#sailfishos08:41
AL13Ntbr: i crossposted, cause noone answers =-(08:41
AL13Ntrouble finding the correct examples / documentation08:41
AL13Ntoo bad the settings isn't open source, i could've peeked how it worked08:42
mikmai wonder what's the future with WhatsApp08:42
tbrwhat about the component gallery?08:42
Nicd-how so?08:42
Nicd-mikma08:42
AL13Ntbr: component gallery?08:43
tbrthe one that's installed in the SDK emulator08:43
mikmanicd-: mitäkuuluu developement has been halted and whatsapp doesn't work that well (yet) on jolla08:43
AL13Nah... er... well, i don't have the SDK installed, i'm doing qml on the phone08:43
Nicd-mikma: halted?08:44
Quuhttps://openrepos.net/content/coderus/mitakuuluu08:44
mikmanicd-: yeap. http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1400694&postcount=108:45
Nicd-well he says it's halted until sync fixed so apparently not halted forever08:47
mikmawhat i heard it's because of whatsapp's end08:47
Quumaybe whatsapp blocked it? :)08:47
Nicd-that's how I understood it08:48
Nicd-I think whatsapp changed their sync API and it's not working in any other client either or something08:48
Quuprobably08:48
Quubut could just be that they blocked everything else08:48
mikmawouldn't be a problem if the original app would work08:49
mikmabut oh well.. atleast facepalm works well08:50
tbrAL13N: I think it's sailfish-components-gallery-qt5 - but it might not have a launcher button08:50
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mikmaalso, mitäkuuluu does constantly drop it's status to "connecting" on me08:53
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Nicd-it works quite fine on my phone08:54
Stskeepsapis are probably the best lockdown i've ever seen08:54
Stskeeps:P08:54
Nicd-haven't had any problems with connections08:54
Nicd-hope coderus continues development sometime though, I paid for this app :D08:55
mikmathat's ... horrible08:55
meShellhad the connection problem, too with mitäkuuluu, when coming home and so switching to wlan08:55
mikmaoh08:55
mikmathat might actually be the reason08:56
Nicd-mikma?08:56
mikmanicd-: supporting someone of doing something cool and then he stops08:56
Quumikma: i also have connection drops08:57
Nicd-mikma: well, it's a donation vs actually buying08:57
mikmaquu: meshell has a good point, i did leave my home yesterday, and connected to another wifi too before i came back home.08:58
mikmastop touching me, nicd-08:58
mikma;)08:58
TriztNicd-: not really, many bought applications has been discontinued too leaving the buyers totally unable to get security fixes08:59
Quulike windows xp.08:59
mikmaand like android08:59
tbrthey fixed a resource hog bug on winxp the other day. ;)08:59
Nicd-mikma: shhh09:00
Nicd-Quu: well, they did support windows xp for over 10 years09:00
mikmanicd-: latest stable irssi btw09:00
Nicd-mikma: was just going to say you don't have to type out everyone's name :P09:00
mikmanicd-: ni <tab> true09:01
Quumikma pls, use tabcomplete09:02
mikmaUnknown command: tabcomplete09:03
mikmaoh man :I09:03
Quuoh god.09:03
Nicd-mikma: so you know. just looks a little odd with everyone's nick in lowercase :P09:04
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QUUis this better? :p09:04
mikmaquu: doesn't change a thing :D09:04
mikmanicd-: yeah i have a setting that actually lowercases the tabcomplete09:05
QUUeww09:05
QUUwhy09:05
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mikmabecause people have full uppercase nicks and i hate them :D09:05
Quuhating people is ok, but you need to proper english mate09:06
Nicd-mikma: ah09:06
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mikmait's ok, i'm not english so i can make mistakes all i want! there's always some grammarnazi that corrects people09:06
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AL13Narg, why is everything on my QML page pasted on top of eachother instead of neatly in rows10:02
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AL13Nanyone here did some of their own app building?10:04
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entilAL13N: I have an app in development, though I've been down with a fever for most of the week so it's been slow10:18
entilbut I can't really help with qml, it seemed as hard as html and css, or harder, and I really don't know why that is10:19
entilfor some reason it's easier to visualize an algorithm than figure out how to put graphical elements in reasonable places10:19
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AL13Nentil: i found out some stuff10:37
AL13Ni'm gonna post this someplace10:37
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Stskeepsartemma: you still have shutdowns, btw?11:35
artemmaStskeeps: yes, and I have a long pending todo item to send you some crash logs with comments11:35
Stskeepsok11:36
artemmagot some 100+ by now.11:36
Stskeepsand it's every time uncontrolled, as in, no notifications or red LED?11:36
artemmatypical number of shutdowns while traveling: 5-20 a day. Typical number in hme invironment 1-311:36
Stskeepswhere do you travel through and do you often dump to 2g onlky?11:36
artemmaStskeeps: hard to say, I don't watch it and it often happens in the pocket, so I notice it when I take phone out of it11:36
Stskeepsok11:36
artemmayeah, both 3G and WiFi11:37
artemmahad very similar picture with SaintPeterburg 3G and Ukrainian 2G11:37
artemmawhat seems to be a trigger is a network activity soon after hand over11:37
artemmaregardless of whether it's mobile data or wifi activity11:38
artemmahence it happens a lot on traveling11:38
artemmainterestingly thing that seems to crash most often is some audio server11:38
Stskeepsyeah, that's the android stuff, no surprise there11:38
artemmaandroid?11:38
Stskeepsyeah11:38
Stskeepsbut unrelated to this issue11:38
artemmaMost annoying things I had was cycled shutdowns11:39
artemmaphone shuts down, I turn it back in, enter pin code, some 2-5 sec later it shuts down again. The cycle repeats11:39
Stskeepsas in trying hard to boot up?11:39
Stskeepsnod11:39
Nicd-I had issues booting after a shutdown11:40
artemmaOnce I was trying to check in in a movie theater so the situation continued for an hour at least :)11:40
artemmathen it fixed itself without any reason obvious to me11:40
Nicd-when I pressed the power button, the phone vibrated and the jolla screen came up, then it went black, jolla screen came up again with red LED, then it shut down11:40
Nicd-this happened 4 or 5 times11:40
artemmahmm.. maybe I exited the theater room and got to good connection area?11:40
Nicd-when I tried to boot it11:40
Stskeepsartemma: can you grab me the contents of /var/lib/upower/ ?11:44
Stskeepsthose might be very interesting11:44
StskeepsQuu: you too11:44
Quuwut11:44
artemmaStskeeps, will do tonight11:44
Quutar em or what?11:44
Stskeepsyeah11:44
artemmarunning out now11:44
Stskeepsit has full logs of battery levels11:44
Stskeepsit seems11:44
Stskeeps(thanks thp )11:44
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AL13Ni got the strangest thing14:26
AL13Nbetween the battery level and the 3G icon, i got a small green bar... what does it do/signify???14:27
AL13Nnever seen this before14:27
PeperJohnnyIt appears if you're online on a chat client like facebook14:27
AL13Noic14:27
AL13Nthat could be it14:27
AL13Nbtw: if you have a SIM without data14:28
AL13Nbut i'm still seeing 3G14:28
AL13Nthat's a bit odd14:28
PeperJohnnyYou could change your status to not avaible and it would turn to orange14:28
AL13N(also, i'm unable to actually call or be called)14:28
PeperJohnnyAL13N: strange indeed14:28
AL13Ninternet is checked off in the settings too14:28
AL13Nbut still 3G keeps appearing14:28
Stskeeps3g is voice too14:29
AL13Nis this normal?14:29
AL13Noic14:29
AL13Ni didn't know14:29
javispedroheh14:29
AL13NStskeeps: about not being able to call or be called, any idea how to debug this?14:29
AL13NStskeeps: the ISP has a webpage that gives call history, and calls are appearing there, but a bit odd14:29
AL13NStskeeps: +32485XXXXXX appears like 32c4899485XXXXXX14:30
AL13NStskeeps: are there some kind of country dialer settings that need to be set?14:30
AL13N(or unset?)14:30
javispedroAL13N: do the other calls there appear using the +CCNNNNNN syntax?14:31
Stskeepsthat does not sound healthy..14:31
AL13Njavispedro: the old phone did have it listed as +CCNNNNNNN14:31
AL13Nnext to it is a categorisation and it says that this is "premium voice service"14:32
AL13Nwhich is normally 3XXX14:32
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AL13Nnow, the journalctl -f does show +CCNNNNNN numbers14:33
AL13Nwhen i dial14:33
AL13Nand since i didn't call/use that sim for over a month, i'm not 100% certain that this is not the ISP's fault14:34
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AL13Nbut, contacts and all works well14:34
AL13NStskeeps: any idea on debugging this? or should i email care@ ?14:34
StskeepsAL13N: first off, don't ask on a sunday :)14:34
AL13Ni don't want to bother them, if it's not necesary14:34
AL13Nheh14:34
AL13NStskeeps: tbh, i already asked yesterday :-)14:35
AL13Nbut noone was here at the time14:35
Stskeepssaturday...14:35
Stskeeps:P14:35
AL13Nyes, i know14:35
AL13Nbut i had to recover phone contacts from old phone first, so i got that done saturday14:35
faenilanyone with hw experience here?14:35
javispedrowhat are those "saturdays" and "sundays" you mention? can you actually skip doing work during those days?14:36
AL13Nfaenil: TOH hw or phone hw or embedded hw?14:36
AL13Njavispedro: haha14:36
Stskeepsjavispedro: it was a big mistake that people told me what weekend was.14:36
AL13Nlol14:36
AL13NStskeeps: you discover weekend when you have babies :-)14:37
faenilAL13N, about loudspeakers14:37
faenilphone ones14:37
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AL13Nsorry, only about surround sets and regular headphone14:38
faeniloki, I want to do some experiment, but don't know to what exchange I can replace the loudspeaker of a phone with the loudspeaker from another phone14:38
faenils/exchange/extent/14:39
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AL13Nyes14:45
AL13Nthe plugs are either 3 or 4 and they are all the same14:45
AL13Nbesides loudspeakers in general are replacable, you only need to be aware about oversteering sound if a loudspeaker has an internal amplifier14:46
AL13Ncan be any speaker in general14:46
faenilAL13N, awesome, that's what I was hoping :)14:47
AL13Neven if it doesn't work well, (as long as you don't oversteer sound, it doesn't matter, so you just need to set low volume before testing14:47
faenilAL13N, though I don't know about the packages in phones...it's a problem even if they have a flex on the wrong side, for instance :D14:48
AL13Na speaker is no more than 2 wires and a magnetic coil14:48
AL13Npackages?14:48
faenilAL13N, you know, when they're assembled in phones they usually have tiny shells or something14:49
faenilcustom stuff14:49
AL13Nin speakers there's no real polarity14:50
AL13Nonly for the common grnd is there a few components14:50
AL13Nin any case, if you keep volume low-ish, you can just plug it in without issue to both phone and speaker14:51
AL13NStskeeps: no idea on debugging dialer? i did email dialplan provider, but unsure where the problem is...14:53
AL13Nin the mean time, i'm working on a systemd UI with qml :-)14:54
AL13Nand i'm gonna try some kind of PoC with dbus connections and security14:54
faenilAL13N, I meant also plastic shells, not "functional" shells14:56
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faenilI mean, if you want to replace the speaker it has to fit :p14:56
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faenilI don't if the sizes are all the same14:56
AL13Noic14:56
AL13Nah, then you're fine14:56
AL13Nbut check the Ohm of the speaker14:57
AL13Nthey should be similar14:57
AL13Nbut speakers come in various sizes, if they don't fit, then you're screwed :-)14:57
faenilAL13N, it's not like you can have tech sheet about phone speakers :p14:57
AL13Nwhy not?14:58
faenilyeah that's the problem :p14:58
faenilAL13N, because there doesn't seem to be a "model" they all have codes on top of them14:58
AL13Nask the shell company about the white papers14:58
faenilwhich bring you nowhere14:58
faenilat least google brings you nowhere14:58
faenilah yeah ok, got to ask the manufacturer14:58
AL13Nor at least the speaker specifications14:58
AL13Nthough i'm pretty sure there's a few common sizes14:59
AL13Npeople in an electronics shop also might now14:59
faenilAL13N, yeah it would be cool find some info about that15:00
AL13Noften they have various whitpapers that aren't otherwise available15:00
faenilmm you say? about phones speakers?15:00
faenilokay15:00
AL13Nwell, not any electronics shop15:00
AL13Nbut not far from where i live there is one, that can make a pci board if you bring your designs15:00
AL13Nand they can help you with the design, or you can order a design that does something specific15:01
AL13Nthose people will know :-)15:01
faenilAL13N, ah yeah indeed...haven't seen anything like that :D15:01
AL13Nnot that many of those around, but there are15:02
Kiranos_If there is an account associated with ***@****.com you will receive an email with a link to reset your password.15:02
AL13Nthey are the shops where you can get any kind of component15:02
Kiranos_ugh15:02
AL13Nlike resistors and stuff15:02
Kiranos_if there is? db check and tell me if there is or not,..15:02
AL13NKiranos_: that sounds like a security feature15:03
faenilAL13N, the issue is I'm an electronic n00b15:03
Kiranos_AL13N: for what?15:03
AL13Nfaenil: Aard is someone who might know more than me, (or knows someone that knows more than him)15:03
AL13NKiranos_: for bruteforce email mining15:03
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petantikA preventative measure.15:11
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clauAL13N, 3G is not reserved for data connections.15:22
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clauin Romania there's a provider that works exclusively over 3G, afaik.15:25
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claunevermind... I just noticed Stskeeps already answered your concern.15:28
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AL13Nclau: though that may be true, the sim i have is old and should not have any data, let alone work over 3G16:02
AL13Nthough i donno if that's related...16:03
AL13Nah well, i never saw this before, but that may not have been visible in a "real" phone16:03
AL13Nbtw: anyone know if i can run the SDK in a KVM ?16:04
AL13Ni wonder if i could convert the builder to kvm and just use my native kdevelop for the C code16:05
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AL13Nnow that my QML is mostly ok (tested on phone), i kinda need do use some C++16:05
mornfallAL13N: Most likely, yes.16:05
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AL13Nto file the datamodel16:06
AL13N*fill16:06
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tbrAL13N: yes, just qemu-convert the vbox image16:06
AL13Ni wonder if i could subclass the listmodel for something that fetches the data ondemand from dbus16:06
tbrAL13N: you'll have to figure out the homedir mapping yourself though, as that relies on vbox shared folders16:06
tbrprolly nfs or such16:07
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AL13Ntbr: i just need it to build C++ code to armv7hf16:07
mornfallAL13N: you can build on the phone btw. :)16:07
AL13Nmornfall: for real?16:07
AL13Nhmm16:07
mornfallsure, I built dnsmasq on it16:07
mornfallafter having a fight with the SDK16:07
mornfall(which I lost)16:08
AL13Nmornfall: :-)16:08
AL13Nmornfall: is there some kind of task-* package for building?16:08
tbrit's not as slow as it used to be, but it's not lightning fast16:08
mornfallAL13N: no idea, I just pkcon installed rpm-build and a toolchain16:08
AL13Nok, thanks for the info16:08
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tbrthere's likely a package group16:08
mornfallnot sure about Qt, but that's probably around somewhere too16:08
mornfallit's faster than my ARM NAS, that's for sure16:09
AL13Nfirst i'm gonna try and add a systemd service file for openvpn... need to check if this is mer or nemo16:09
mornfallhah, I already have that :D16:11
AL13Nmornfall: i was gonna used the multiservice one from Mageia16:12
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AL13Nso that you have openvpn@config1.service16:12
mornfallok, I just cobbled together a custom unit16:12
AL13Netc..16:12
mornfallwith a hardcoded config file16:12
AL13Ncause i have multiple ones16:12
mornfallconnman is a lost cause as far as DNS goes so I had to hook up dnsmasq into the thing16:12
AL13Nbtw: what's the way of getting this upstreamed? should i email a patch? or fork with pull-requests? or?16:12
AL13Nmornfall: it seems that connman doesn't get my DNS from ipv616:13
AL13Nmornfall: i'm also working on a systemd UI :-)16:13
mornfall:-)16:13
AL13Nbut i'm new on all of this16:14
* mornfall too16:14
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AL13Ni got the qml for systemd, but now i need to get the dbus calls for systemd stuff16:14
mornfallyou most likely want to check out mer16:14
mornfallfor things like openvpn16:14
mornfalland systemd16:14
AL13Ni found this: http://gitweb.merproject.org/gitweb?p=mer-core/openvpn.git;a=summary16:14
AL13Nbut16:14
AL13Nno idea how to contribute16:14
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AL13NStskeeps: should know, since i'm seeing his contributions...16:15
AL13NStskeeps: how do i get a mer account for the git?16:15
Stskeepslog in with google account16:15
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AL13N...16:16
* AL13N sighs16:16
mornfallAL13N: apparently you want to create an account on bugs.merproject.org16:16
Stskeepsnot for the git stuff16:17
Stskeeps:P16:17
mornfallthe wiki is "great"16:18
mornfalldoesn't tell you a thing16:18
tbrit's a wiki, fix it16:18
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AL13NStskeeps: doesn't jolla have a openID provider too? or isn't that connected?16:26
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mornfalltbr: great idea, only the info that's not there is not there... how would I learn it?16:29
mornfallAL13N: anyway, you can always create BZs with patches I guess16:30
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clauAL13N, maybe this helps too: https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Contribution_in_detail16:38
tbrmornfall: I thought you had figured out some things already?16:39
Bysmyyrchange picture16:40
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Bysmyyraa, sorry,16:40
Bysmyyrwrong time, noce answer about 20h ago16:40
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AL13Nclau: already read it and done it16:44
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claudamn... it appears I'm way too slow today :)16:45
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AL13N:-)16:53
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AL13NStskeeps: should i let the openvpn service be wanted post-user-session, or pre-user-session ?16:57
AL13Nor maybe i should keep openvpn on demand16:57
Stskeepswell, neither, on demand16:57
AL13Nok16:57
mornfallwhat does on demand mean in this context?16:57
AL13Nit means someone need to find a UI to start the systemd service for openvpn16:58
AL13N(which i'm working on)16:58
AL13Nand it doesn't start at boot time16:58
AL13Nor should i say services16:58
AL13Nsince i'm doing the multiconfig services16:58
AL13Nso that if you have 4 openvpn configs, you have 4 systemd services you can start/stop independantly16:59
mornfallwell, you'll need a gui to make it start with the system too, then16:59
AL13Nheh16:59
mornfalldo you also plan to tackle DNS?16:59
AL13Nmornfall: i'm just doing the basic stuff for mer16:59
AL13Nthe openvpn config is SEP16:59
AL13NSomeone Else's Problem17:00
mornfallso connman is not part of mer?17:00
AL13Nyes17:00
AL13Nconnman is17:00
AL13Nbut, as i said,... SEP17:00
AL13Ni just need the systemd services for myself17:00
mornfallI'm wondering how anyone uses a VPN without DNS.17:01
pdanek1Did anyone had an issue of webpage in default web browser shaking when scrolling it down?17:01
pdanek1After restart of browser, it disappeared17:01
pdanek1Very strange bug.17:01
AL13Nmornfall: VPN isn't always redirect-gateway17:01
slatepdanek1: seen that once17:01
mornfallAL13N: what's a redirect-gateway?17:02
Stskeepspdanek1: yes, reproduced today17:02
AL13Nmornfall: most often,it's just to log in at work or whatnot17:02
mornfallI mean, usually the VPN has a nameserver for stuff in the VPN.17:02
pdanek1Stskeeps: how do you reproduce it? I didn't17:02
Stskeepspdanek1: well, as in, it happened to me too17:02
AL13Nmornfall: as i said, you can put this in the config17:02
AL13Nbut config is not my problem, i'm just copying it17:02
mornfallhow?17:03
AL13Nmornfall: by reading the openvpn documentation :-)17:03
AL13N(you can push DNS options)17:03
mornfallpush, sure, but the client-side openvpn needs to do something about those17:03
mornfallnormally it'd drop them into /etc/resolv.conf or somesuch17:04
mornfallbut AFAIUI, that'd set you on a collision course with connman which has a DNS proxy in it and writes "nameserver 127.0.0.1" over resolv.conf17:06
mornfallthe other "obvious" thing would be to talk to connman to add nameservers to its internal list, but that's something I didn't work out how to do from the sparse docs it has17:07
mornfalldocumentation mentions fallback DNS servers which don't seem to work at all, there's one mention of "global" nameservers but I didn't find how those work... there's a per-service way to set nameservers, but it's kinda destructive17:09
mornfallseems that if you manage to update the nameservers between the connection coming up and DHCP filling you up, connman throws away the DHCP ones... basically, the only way I could get it to work was to use a hardcoded nameserver for the Internet (4.2.2.2)17:10
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mornfallthere's also connman-vpnd which will probably conflict with your openvpn service, but which can only do routed VPNs17:13
mornfall(for whatever reason, all my VPNs are bridged)17:13
Stskeepsmornfall: you sound like somebody who actually understands connman..?17:14
mornfallnot really17:15
mornfallI did a little studying on it, and a little reverse engineering17:16
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mornfallyou can install connman-test and check out /usr/lib/connman/test/ (list-services, get-services; there's some docs on connman.net, but not much)17:18
Stskeeps:nod:17:18
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Venemohow do I initiate a contacts sync on the jolla?17:21
slateactivesync?17:21
Venemono, google17:21
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slategot mailsync on?17:22
slateMy contacts did not update if mailsync was off and contacts on17:22
slatewith activesync though17:22
VenemoI got everything on, yes17:22
pdanek1Stskeeps: Will be new update any time soon?17:23
Venemopdanek1: yes17:23
mornfallVenemo: when is soon? :-)17:23
Quuhttps://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time17:24
Quuabout 2 years17:24
Venemoheh17:24
slatedont know if carddav is supported with gmail contacts sync? Sine google dropped activesync support.17:24
slatesince*17:24
mornfallheh, I just got "system update available" ... too bad it's 1.0.2.5 again17:26
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VenemoAL13N: ping17:57
Venemomornfall, pdanek1: 1 update / month is promised, so I expect one in january, and there's only 12 days left of january17:58
Pnuu12 days could still be considered "almost half" ;-)17:59
Venemo:P17:59
Pnuuand I think it was a target that there'd be an update per month17:59
suosaaskiif it is an average... how many updates have there been for the past 2 months or so that the device has been out? 4?18:00
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Venemosuosaaski: don't be so pessimistic, man18:02
VenemoI expect at least a bugfix release18:02
suosaaskiVenemo: pessimistic? :)18:02
Venemosuosaaski: I hope it's not an average :P18:02
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suosaaskialso perhaps not set in stone, as in some updates might take a bit longer and some shorter.18:03
VenemoI just want to have all the bugfixes they made since christmas18:05
Venemonothing more18:05
suosaaski...if there is any :P18:05
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slatesuosaaski: mr. negative.18:06
slate;)18:06
suosaaski:D18:07
smokexfrom christmas to new years they didn't work on anything guaranteed unless they were bored and decided to at home18:11
smokexbut since then I bet they've been burning the midnight oil18:12
slateIs it Jolla-people or Myriad Group people who update the alien-dalvik side in sailfish?18:13
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Aardslate: define 'update'18:20
Venemosuosaaski: I actually saw a bunch in the Nemo github ;)18:20
Venemohey Aard :)18:20
Aardhey Venemo18:20
VenemoAard: interested in the beta release of the IRC client?18:21
slateAard: develop18:21
slateFix thing, add features etc.18:21
Aardslate: they do what we tell them to do18:21
slateAard: okey, so basically its outsourced18:22
Aardyes18:23
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AL13Nhmm, i'm not having any luck finding the screen sources for mer or are they someplace else?18:45
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AL13NVenemo: pong18:46
VenemoAL13N: now I can say with 100% sureness that I'm going to FOSDEM18:46
AL13N:-)18:46
AL13Npass by the Mageia stand/booth18:47
AL13Ni'll likely be there18:47
VenemoAL13N: have you seen this? https://together.jolla.com/question/11303/are-you-going-to-fosdem-2014-irl-floss-meeting-in-belgium/18:47
AL13Nyes18:47
Venemogreat :)18:47
AL13Ni put a comment in there18:47
faenilhe replied already18:47
faenilyeah :)18:47
AL13Ni didn't think answers would be used, i felt comments would be better :-)18:47
AL13Nah well18:48
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AL13Ni'm trying to find out how screen did the tmpfiles conversion for the openvpn package, but i don't see the screen in the mer git18:48
Waiteehmm18:49
Waiteefirst sim connection error18:49
AL13Nah, github nemo-pacakges18:50
* AL13N sighs18:50
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mikhasVenemo, AL13N, booked FOSDEM last week ;-)19:11
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Venemomikhas: great :)19:12
mikhasbut I have to confess … I did put my SIM card back into my N9 =/19:12
slatemikhas: which features u get more with n9?19:13
mikhasah, where to start19:14
mikhaslet's just say that the N9 appears more polished?19:15
slatehw-wise?19:15
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mikhasyou could also say that  I simply got *too* used to it19:15
mikhassw-wise19:15
mornfallI guess I'm lucky to never have owned N9 (jumped directly from N900).19:16
clauwhich is the most important feature that you don't have currently on Jolla?19:16
slateHarmattan is out from beta. ;)19:16
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svuorelamikhas: I have actually considered the same :/ - maybe just because I got too used to it.19:17
mikhasok, for instance battery life19:18
clautbh, N9 still attracts me too.19:18
mikhasmy n9 after 2.5 years is still doing better than the jolla phone19:19
claumikhas, have you disabled tohd.service on jolla?19:19
mikhasI read about it, I don't care19:19
slateI could go back to n900 if it had capacitive touch.19:19
mikhasI bought a product ;-)19:19
clauBattery-wise Jolla seems to deal much better with 3G.19:19
pdanek1slate: I actually liked display on N900 more than on Jolla19:19
pdanek1the resistive one19:19
slateugh, looks and feels 90ish19:19
clauon N9 battery was really bad with 3G, so I had to switch to 2G/2.5G.19:20
slateBattery did not last a day for me with N9. Activesync on.19:20
mikhasbut I have to apologize … I didn't want to start a silly discussion on things we don't like about the first Jolla device19:20
claumikhas, after disabling tohd.service, the battery is better than N9 for my use cases.19:20
slateI like the ui, android support and the camera.19:21
slateOn jolla.19:21
slateLets turn this conversation. :)19:21
PnuuI don't even need android support anymore19:21
mikhasslate, ;-)19:21
mornfallwell, I guess the update is long time coming...19:21
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mornfallwith the number of high-profile bugs...19:21
clauWell, beyond the small bugs which I'm sure will be fixed soon, my biggest issue is the security. And for this reason I can't say I would recommend it to a casual user.19:21
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Venemoclau: security of what?19:22
clauSailfish, in general.19:22
mornfallclau: see #sailfishos an hour ago :-)19:23
clauis there a log?19:23
clauI was offline.19:23
clauor, maybe you can tell me about it in a few words? :)19:23
mornfallwell, we are at the mercy of application developers19:24
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mornfallthere's no security at all, and root escalation is trivial19:24
clauI do know, I was one of the people who brought it up19:25
clauanything that runs under user nemo can use pkcon to do whatever19:25
claubut this can be easily fixed; not sure what else it would break though19:26
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clauone bug in Warehouse app (from openrepos) resulted in someone uninstalling the Phone app by mistake.19:26
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mornfallclassy19:27
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claubut, as I said, this is probably easy to fix19:27
mornfallbut I don't see an easy fix actually19:27
clauyou can limit access to pkcon by group, instead of user19:27
mikhasso perhaps AEGIS wasn't so bad?19:27
mikhasSCNR ;-)19:27
* mikhas runs19:27
clauaegis went a tad too far IMO19:27
clauit looked more like DRM than security for user19:28
claubesides this pkcon issue, I would like to see app isolation19:28
claueach app running under it's own user19:28
mornfallyeah, that's another thing and much more serious19:28
mornfallroot escalation is a concern when someone would want to brick your device19:29
clauin fact, it's probably not that difficult either19:29
claulinux already offers this stuff19:29
mikhasclau, you mean proper sandboxing?19:29
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mornfallwell, we are probably talking man-years of work even with selinux, apparmor, etc. around19:29
mikhaswell systemd is already there, that's a start19:29
mikhas(to make it possible)19:29
claunah19:29
clauit'd be nice to have more, but even running apps under different users would do it19:30
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Custodianas technology, aegis is great. bad was nokia attitude about creating limited origins ;)19:30
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clauand give access to resources based on groups19:30
clauin fact, if you look in /etc/group you will see there are plenty of groups already19:30
clauso probably someone already started work on that19:30
slateaegis is awesome for a normal user.19:30
mikhasCustodian, cant complain, the origin overrides worked fine for me =p19:31
mikhasslate, that's the point19:31
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mikhasdo you design your product for experts or for consumer joe?19:31
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Custodianif you can create unrestructed origins, aegis also great for developer.19:31
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mikhasthat's why on principle, where I see myself as a consumer joe, I won't kill a service to increase battery life. It's a hack.19:32
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slateHow about tinfoil? "hehe"19:32
mikhasI specifically aim for the consumer joe experience, if that makes any sense19:32
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clauwell, in all honesty... the only real reason why I would switch back to N9 is security.19:34
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clauand sadly this will take a lot of time to get fixed :(19:35
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clauBtw, in case you missed it: account passwords are stored in clear text.19:37
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mornfallclau: dunno, groups can get you somewhere, but how do you restrict network access?19:37
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clauthat's the last problem to solve19:38
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clauif the flashlight doesn't have access to address book, emails, etc etc... having network access is not as dangerous anyway.19:38
AL13Ni plan to do a small PoC with an app running under a different user, dbus service, policykit and probably a QML accessor that uses the DBUS but is similar to what devs are used to19:39
clauor at least as far as I am concerned.19:39
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* javispedro doesn't get why people want more sandboxing on an embedded device than on a desktop19:39
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AL13Njavispedro: because of proprietary stuff19:39
claujavispedro, I don't want more. I already have a lot on desktop.19:39
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AL13Njavispedro: on a phone you tend to install stuff that you usually wouldn't19:39
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AL13Njavispedro: also, if this PoC works, there's actually more features wrt to inter-app functionality19:40
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clauI currently run software that uses internet in light vms (freebsd jail)19:40
AL13Nwhile still keeping everything safe19:40
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slateMy desktop doesn't do stuff without asking.19:40
javispedroclau: you can do the same in Sailfish then.. for now. When a official sandboxing policy is made, then who knows if you'd be able to override it.19:41
AL13Njavispedro: also, even though the jolla QA team is great, they are bound to miss something (humans make errors after all)19:41
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claujavispedro, can I?19:41
AL13Njavispedro: well, at least i'm gonna try, if it's doable, at least it serves as an example as how jolla can integrate it19:41
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javispedroclau: build kernel, use lxc, whatever you want.19:42
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claujavispedro, I propose Jolla does it then :)19:42
javispedropersonally, I use way more programs from way more different authors on my desktop than on my "Jolla"19:42
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mornfallAL13N: there's basically no way humans can assess safety of binary blobs19:42
javispedroand... I have much more important data on my desktop than on my Jolla19:42
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mornfallAL13N: it's already too tricky with sources19:42
javispedroreplace Jolla with any other mobile/embedded device I control19:43
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clauwhat OS are you using on desktop javispedro ?19:43
AL13Nmornfall: well, there's the corporate structure, which is contracts, liability assesments, external audits, etc...19:43
javispedroclau: Gentoo atm.19:43
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clauso, it's a distro with tradition19:43
AL13Nor more importantly, who is taking the blame19:43
clauand you compile software from source19:43
mornfallAL13N: right, but you can submit apps as a completely anonymous internet user19:43
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clauwhich, if I recall, you get safely.19:43
AL13Nmornfall: of course19:43
AL13Nthis is why i want to have some sort of sandboxing19:44
clauhow does it compare to installing closed source apps from shady sources (sometimes), over unsafe connections?19:44
AL13Nmornfall: you're preaching to the choir19:44
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clauI recall Jolla was supposed to be the no-NSA device.19:45
javispedroclau: why do you assume that I don't have closed source programs? or that my connection is safe, or that the sources are even not shady?19:45
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mornfallAL13N: sorry :) I wish we'd hear from Jolla on the topic, though.19:45
clauwell, currently NSA would have very little trouble in screwing my device entirely.19:45
AL13Ni want something that is safe, customizable, extendable without any work, something that also allows more (if wanted) and is easy to used for devs19:45
AL13Nmornfall: well, rainisto didn't want it19:45
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AL13Nmornfall: of course, that's only one person19:45
claua remote exploit in the browser, and I'm done.19:45
clauand browsers are notorious for how buggy they are.19:45
javispedroQualcomm hardware will never be NSA-free.19:45
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PnuuNSA might already be inside the qualcomm chip :-P19:46
clauawesome.19:46
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AL13Nwell, it does depend on the phone network19:46
AL13Nbut yeah19:46
mornfallPnuu: it can do very little harm from inside the chip, SW-wise19:46
claujust don't go to US with Jolla :D19:46
AL13Nwhat phone network doesn't NSA have access to19:46
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claumornfall, if it has read access to memory... well, I'm sure you can figure it out :)19:46
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mornfallclau: the chip still has to work, and we are talking enormous amount of code that'd be needed to efficiently snoop on your data19:47
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mornfallcompared to what can be spared in terms of silicon anyway19:48
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clauwhat if it leaks your encryption key?19:48
clausay, if you use pgp19:48
mornfallbaseband is another matter, but you already sign on to towers so it's not much of a difference19:48
clauor openvpn19:48
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mornfallclau: you still need substantial infrastructure to get that key out, even if you knew when and where to look for it19:49
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clauI do not know the low level details, so I can't comment much about it19:49
AL13Nmornfall: i'm willing to bet that they have substantial expertise and procedures in that area19:50
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AL13Nmornfall: after all, it's not like they haven't done that before, right?19:50
claubut I think you underestimate what can be done19:50
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mornfallclau: you could do something if you could run the support software on the network side19:51
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mornfallclau: getting out a radio packet from the CPU might be just about doable19:51
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AL13Nhaha, between all the systemd services, i found a "ngfd.service": "New Girl Friend Daemon" ?19:51
mornfallbut the towers would need to recognize that and cooperate19:51
VenemoAL13N: ngf = non-grafical feedback19:52
javispedroAL13N: vibrator stuff19:52
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AL13Nlol19:52
AL13Nit even fits :-)19:52
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clauhahahaha19:52
Pnuu:-D19:52
mornfallproblem is you'd need substantial stego otherwise the first kid would figure out the radio packets19:52
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AL13Nmornfall: if the attack is from the mobile data (which is logical since they control alot of telco's already), then you're screwed19:53
mornfalland so on... it's far from easy, even for a big adversary19:53
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clauthere's another important thing though: if they care about you so much as to target you directly, you are probably in deep troubles anyway19:53
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AL13Nclau: didn't you follow that thing where they need 3 hops from a known terrorist19:53
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mornfallright, add 6 degrees of separation on top19:54
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AL13N1 such terrorist (including telcos as hops) would give > 3 million people19:54
clau:)19:54
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AL13Nand there are > 30000 known terrorists19:54
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AL13N(and this is only about US citizens, because the rest is free play anyway, they don't count)19:54
mornfallmakes you wonder if they still count Nelson Mandela for the purpose of NSA spying :-)19:55
AL13Nprobably19:55
YanielI don't think they need to :D19:55
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AL13Nthey didn't say that the hops need to be alive19:55
clauanyway, I think the discussion about security went to extremes... NSA is not your only problem.19:55
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mornfallAL13N: anyway, what'd you mean "attack from mobile data"?19:56
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mornfallclau: it's not even your biggest problem :)19:56
Stskeepsndvl: fix your connection?19:56
AL13Nmornfall: well, if you're using your phone with a sim card, the phone company has quite some access to your device19:56
claumornfall, as I stated before, there is just one important thing that needs to be done: isolate native apps.19:56
mornfallAL13N: you can probably assume that baseband will happily tell them all it knows19:57
claualso, the pkcon craziness must be fixed soon, obviously. :)19:57
AL13Nbut yes, otherwise one app just gets all the facebook data and runs off with it19:57
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PnuuI'm safe from fb-attacks, yay19:57
* AL13N too19:57
mornfallAL13N: you obviously don't tell it what you don't have to, and everything you push out to network is application-level encrypted19:57
AL13Nmornfall: except that all apps run as the same user and therefor can check your encryption keys19:58
AL13Nor whatnot19:58
mornfallAL13N: sure, that's an entirely different problem though :-)19:58
mornfall*that* can be fixed19:58
mornfallat least in theory19:58
AL13Nyes, but this is why we want sandboxing in apps19:59
mornfallamong other things, yes19:59
AL13Nto isolate apps from eachother and from the system (eg: your camera)19:59
mornfallI think we reversed, now you preach to the choir ;-)19:59
AL13Nyes19:59
AL13Ntbh: i'm pretty sure we all preaching to the choir20:00
AL13Nthe only people who don't agree are the ones not speaking20:00
mornfallnow where is the damned choir :D20:00
AL13Nor rainisto20:00
javispedroI am most definitely not convinced sandboxing is a requirement.20:00
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clauit's ok, we'll ask for a "disable" function for you. :D20:00
AL13Nif you don't, that is your prerogative, but then you likely don't care about privacy at all20:01
javispedrothe inconvenience is huge, and I don't see many benefits.20:01
AL13Ntbh: i'm perfectly fine if they want default all open20:01
clauwhat inconvenience?20:01
mornfalljavispedro: well, it's only a requirement as far as you want to use your device for anything remotely privacy-sensitive20:01
clauit can be done sanely, you know.20:01
AL13Njavispedro: that's just it, we're talking about technical stuff that will not have any inconvenience20:01
javispedromornfall: and I say having no sandbox is a requirement for using the device for anything remotely related to work.20:02
javispedroreal work. the one I do on my desktop.20:02
claudefine "real work"20:02
AL13Nmornfall: using a banking app or online banking or even buying something online, or accounts (for identity theft or even spam) is privacy-sensitive enough20:02
AL13Nerr i meant that for javispedro20:03
javispedroclau: many small programs interacting20:03
mornfallAL13N: of course, but if you don't want to do anything like that, it's OK to not have sandboxing20:03
sremespeople don't run sandboxed software on their desktops, and still probably have more privacy-sensitive data there20:03
AL13Neven the jolla registered account is dangerous20:03
AL13Nthey could order another jolla in your name20:03
clausremes, I do!20:03
mornfalljavispedro: it's a linux box, you can create a user for that kind of stuff20:04
mornfalljavispedro: you don't expect to install all those small programs that interact from the store, do you?20:04
sremesclau: sure, some people do :)20:04
javispedromornfall: well, that is an option. otherwise the store is as alien to me as the android store20:04
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AL13Non desktops, people have tomoyo and selinux (and policykit) and everything runs under a different user  (at least in linux)20:05
javispedroAL13N: hardly.20:05
javispedrowell, except for clau.20:05
clau:D20:05
mornfallsremes: well, most people that don't have a sanbox and install random crapware contribute mightily to the botnets of the world20:05
clauwell, I'm a tad sad Jolla is not based on freebsd :)20:05
claufreebsd jails are damn powerful20:06
mornfallsremes: where you unfortunately have to assume that everything in a smartphone store is crapware20:06
mornfallsremes: as far as security is concerned anyway20:06
AL13Nclau: did you read about the systemd chroots ?20:06
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javispedroclau: well, systemd/kitchensinkd is not portable to freebsd!20:06
AL13Nclau: supposedly they are more secure than regular chroots20:06
clauAL13N, read about jails20:06
* javispedro sighs.20:06
claunot that it would matter for Jolla though20:06
mornfallAL13N: lxc anyone?20:06
javispedrothe most equivalent thing to jails is lxc20:06
mornfallAL13N: bsd chroots are so overrated20:07
mornfallbsd jails anyway20:07
claumornfall, explain?20:07
AL13Niiuc, systemd chroots also had network seperation20:07
javispedrolxc is still not entirely completed yet20:07
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javispedroyou'd be better suited using openvz or similar ..20:07
javispedro(obviously the cascade of attention-deficit teenagers issue has left openvz without a clear upgrade path)20:09
mornfalljavispedro: the userspace maybe, the kernel side is not really lxc, it just uses a bunch of stuff that's already in the kernel20:09
javispedromornfall: that's precisely the problem, there's a bunch of stuff in the kernel that does not enforce the separation20:10
sremesmornfall: I mostly agree, but I'm just wondering, why the same security measures than on smartphones (android etc.) are not more widely applied then to desktops, since the issues are the same as people do install crapware regardless the platform20:10
javispedromornfall: I think that being able to shutdown the system from a lxc uid 0 was fixed already, but then there was being able to change the hotplug handler and other issues20:11
mornfalljavispedro: yeah, well :-) that shutdown thing is kinda embarassing20:11
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Stskeepslet's qemu kvm everything20:12
Stskeeps:P20:12
mornfalljavispedro: but we aren't really concerned about container's uid0 here20:12
javispedrosremes: to put it simple, try envisioning using the android sandbox policy in your desktop.20:12
mornfalljavispedro: as long as you don't have local root exploits in the kernel the app won't be able to use that20:12
javispedrobasically it only works when you're talking about fart apps.20:12
claumost users only use fart apps on desktops.20:12
mornfallclau: they deserve windows 8 :-)20:13
javispedroexactly.20:13
javispedropeople complain about windows 8 a lot,20:13
javispedrobut that's what it is.20:13
javispedroa fscking giant sandbox.20:13
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clauby fscking, you mean chkdsk-ing, right?20:14
clau:)20:14
javispedroclau: obviously, what else could it be? ;P20:14
korscandisking.20:14
javispedro(actually it is called chkdsk-ing on nt systems)20:14
javispedro(blame VMS)20:15
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Quu(blame canada)20:16
Stskeeps(blame aard)20:16
AL13Nanyone know how to "show" whitespace differences with diff?20:17
attah-b ?20:18
attahand/or -B20:18
clauisn't that happening by default?20:18
attahhttp://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?diff20:18
mornfallAL13N: you could do a normal diff, -w diff and then diff the diffs20:18
clau-b and -B are for ignoring20:18
javispedroI also suggest colordiff or similar as that might be configured to highlight whitespace changes20:18
clauor, if the context allows it: vimdiff20:19
javispedro(like git diff does, but I don't remember what it uses as backend)20:19
AL13Nhmm20:19
attahoh.. sorry, i misread you.. so it's not on by default? :O20:19
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AL13Nof course20:19
AL13Nvimdiff20:19
clau\o/20:19
AL13Ni should've thought about it20:19
AL13Nyes, you win20:20
clauhehehehe20:20
AL13Nclau: you get ++ karma20:20
AL13Nok?20:20
claulike, real lilfe karma?20:21
clauffs... my "l" is going nuts.20:21
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javispedroaand the latest webkit-gtk build was only 3hours. I need to upgrade my Gentoo-building cluster.20:24
clauon the security subject: http://qubes-os.org/trac20:24
clauisn't there a binary package for webkit-gtk no gentoo? I recall they started to offer bins for big packages, like firefox, openoffice etc20:25
javispedronot yet for webkit-gtk.20:25
clau*on20:25
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javispedrosoo... I fear whatever is going to get out of the sailfish "security" bulldozer.20:27
javispedrowhatever it is, if you're thinking of doing weird things like removing pre/postscripts on RPMs, consider why you're using RPMs in the first place.20:27
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javispedroyou could just distribute programs in .zip packages, and give them an specific extension, I don't know, .apk20:28
javispedrothen use secure languages, like this new-fangled java20:28
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claujavispedro, you don't need all that.20:29
javispedromaybe use some simple but pervasive IPC system, and call it openbinder...20:29
clauusers & groups.20:29
clauwon't solve everything, but will solve lots of problems.20:30
javispedrowell, that will kill direct reading from the contacts database for example,20:30
javispedroand know you need to IPC reads and writes to/from it.20:30
clauwhy?20:30
claumake it group readable20:30
clauand put the users you need in that particular group20:31
clauor, offer it over... uhm, unix socket?20:31
AL13Nisn't there that thing where you can allow extra rights?20:31
claucome on, linux offers this kind of stuff for ages.20:31
AL13N(outside of user/groups)20:31
clauand it would be a very good starting point for proper security.20:31
javispedroclau: a socket is precisely the extra complexity that I'd prefer to avoid,20:32
javispedrobut I'm tempted by the groups idea20:32
clauextra for who?20:32
javispedro(though Android also does that...)20:32
clauyou can offer APIs20:32
AL13Nunix domain sockets is complex?20:32
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javispedroyes.20:32
AL13Nthat's the first time i heard that :-)20:32
clauthe casual developer doesn't need to have an idea about the mechanisms behind it20:32
clauand the user won't care at all anyway.20:32
AL13Nexactly20:32
clauand there's a beauty to it... let's face it :)20:33
javispedrothey will care when their 30000 messages database loaded instantenously before, and doesn't now.20:33
clauit doesn't have to be a socket, but it would definitely be a better choice than giving access directly to a file.20:34
AL13NDBUS20:34
* AL13N hides20:34
clauhahahah20:34
javispedroclau: I admit 'design beauty' has a lot to do with this. The problem is, I tend to see beauty in simplicity.20:34
clauthere was a saying about how simple things should be.20:35
AL13NKISS20:35
claubut let me make an analogy with cars :P20:35
clauwould you rather drive without seatbelts, airbags, ABS, ESP etc ?20:35
AL13N(doorlocks)20:36
clauI mean, the cars used to be much simpler, and unfortunately deadlier20:36
javispedroI dislike car analogies, but note how neither really changes the way you drive.20:36
clauyes20:37
clauthat's what we propose for sailfish :)20:37
clausomething that doesn't change the way you use the phone.20:37
javispedroin this case, this is a pervasive change.20:37
clauok, we'll talk about it again after your flashlight will steal your accounts details from the phone :).20:38
javispedroit is a change of focus from a maemo-like "security ignorant" but desktop-like platform towards something resembling Android and "fart apps" models.20:38
clauif Jolla wants to become mainstream... there's no other way anyway.20:39
javispedroclau: technically that could happen right now on my Gentoo system.20:39
clauwhile the trust model may work for us, here, it will be very very bad when there will be tons of closed source apps in the store.20:39
claudo you use software that comes in binary format from another source than gentoo?20:39
AL13Nwhat's that command that rechecks for new systemd unit files?20:40
javispedroclau: I even use Steam, from time to time.20:40
clauok, I give up then :)20:40
javispedro=)20:40
javispedroI see the need for certain sandboxing, e.g. a keyring.20:41
AL13Nbut therein lies the problem20:41
AL13Nthe minute you use it, all apps have access to it20:41
javispedrowell, keyrings in the desktop "kind of hope" that if any password in it is important, you'll set it up to prompt for a password the moment you need it, and then clear it from memory afterwards.20:42
javispedrothey also assume that secure prompts exist in X11, without keyboard monitors and so on.20:43
clauhope-based security ? :D20:43
AL13Nhahaha20:43
javispedroanother example20:44
AL13Nthen again, someone i will not specify but is into security mails his evernote stuff (and it contains passwords)20:44
* AL13N facepalms20:44
javispedroeveryone knows how easy it is to both capture and fake keypresses in X11 (and Windows btw)20:44
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clau /o\20:44
javispedroobviously this make any kind of keyring "hope-based security" at least on these platforms.20:44
javispedro*this makes20:44
javispedroyet allowing capturing and faking keypresses allows gazillions of usecases that I wouldn't want to lose.20:45
clauyes, but all the other security methods are there to protect you from someone doing just that.20:45
clauI grant you that though, X11 sucks.20:45
Yanielshocking news :D20:45
Stskeeps+120:46
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clauhehehe20:46
javispedroX11 sucks in its implementation. e.g. I am right now trying to figure out how to exceed the weird 160bytes payload limit in XEvents. But I don't think the ideas suck.20:46
Stskeepswayland sucks in other ways20:46
Yanieland mir probably in yet others20:47
javispedro*160 bits, sorry.20:47
Yanielif there ever is a working implementation of that20:47
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* clau is looking forward to a text based phone interface.20:47
Aardlet's do a new display protocol iplementing only the sucking parts from x11, wayland and mir :)20:47
clauthe sucking parts? :D20:48
javispedrobasically I suspect that's what Wayland will become.20:48
javispedroan amalgamation of everything20:48
Aardclau: I believe in causing pain :)20:48
clauhahaha20:48
artemmaAnybody into making Jolla app store unique? :) https://together.jolla.com/question/17240/micro-payment-subscriptions-including-try-before-you-buy-for-app-store/20:49
AL13Nwell, at the very least pain is truth20:49
* artemma always wanted to be paid by app *usage* - brings so much motivation for permanent improvement20:49
AL13Ni guess there's a reason why noone has done this before20:50
Aardit's a privacy issue20:50
artemmaAL13N: I wonder the same often20:50
AL13NAard: i meant on the selling side20:50
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artemmaI would guess that Apple never cared about app subscriptions (they make real money on hardware after all) and then nobody had a "golden standard" to copy from :)20:51
AL13Nmaybe it's the users don't like to think about using something20:52
AL13Nor at least that's how the sellers thing20:52
AL13N*think20:52
javispedroI think that half of fart app consumers actually "buy-to-try"20:52
javispedroafter all, the average active time for a fart app is just a few minutes20:53
artemmaPossibly, I hope to have a bit of discussion about it for better understanding. Not sure if it fits Together format much though as "just discussions" seem to be not very welcome there20:53
AL13Nand never use again20:53
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javispedroany trial would be longer than that.20:53
* artemma sigh, some people care too much about karmas and points20:53
AL13Nbut, paid by usage is ads20:53
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artemmawell, I do not like to be paid by apps. And to pay by apps to20:53
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AL13Nand the users neither, but it's the simplest solution for sellers20:54
Quuawaynicks are bad for your health20:54
artemmaso searching for alternative models to be paid by app usage. Micro-pament oriented subscription is one such idea, would love to see better proposals20:54
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artemmaI don't think ads really work for developers too, except for few maybe20:55
AL13Nartemma: i wish you luck with your endeavour, even though you're trying to make the world a better place, i'm assuming you'll not get any credit for that20:55
artemmathere's reason why Facebook does native mobile ads instead of "standard" in-app banners20:55
krnlynghi, i've ordered my jolla on the 1.1.2014, i know it hasn't been 3 weeks yet but i am really eager, want to hack :), can i expect it to arrive this week :)?20:56
AL13Nno20:56
artemmaAL13N: it's alright, if it flies I will be able to get enough credit to massage my ego. I'll be happy if I'll be able to be paid by my app usage :)20:56
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AL13Nkrnlyng: but then again, i got mine before 3 weeks, even though they said 3/4 weeks20:56
AL13Nartemma: btw: were you the one with the hello world app?20:57
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artemmaAL13N: yep20:58
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attahkrnlyng: What's the status in the store? Not shipped yet? And when exactly did you order?20:58
AL13Nartemma: i put in a pull-request20:58
AL13Njust saying20:58
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artemmaAL13N: getting through mail is in my todo list two slots from what I am currently doing :)20:58
artemmathanks for the proposal20:58
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krnlyngattah: on the 1.1 :), it says shipped in the store20:58
attahkrnlyng: and fedex tracking?21:00
krnlyngattah: where do i find that :D?21:00
attahWell. if you got a confirmation email for the shipment, that's where it'll be21:01
attahUnless they still send out shipping numbers in scientific notation.. lol21:02
* Stskeeps cringes21:02
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attahStskeeps: funny part is.. it wouldn't have been an issue if it hadn't been that the last digits were rounded off ^^21:03
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attahkrnlyng: the other option is to track it "by reference" and then give the shipment number which can be found both in said email and the store.. and you'll also have to provide country+zip21:07
AL13Nartemma: iinm, there were 2 other pull-requests already21:07
krnlynghmm fedex says thursday :'( toooo long :)21:13
slateisnt that next week?21:15
slate;)21:15
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mikhasslate, I like the contacts view21:16
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slatemikhas: in N9? ;)21:16
mikhasno in Jolla21:16
mikhasdoes not quite work for > 200 contacts but still21:16
slateSame, took a while to get used to but works good.21:16
mikhas(dynamic indexing works better than fixed index, for unbound sets)21:17
* artemma doesn't like that he is forced to use Jolla in English just because most of my contacts use Latin letters. Otherwise they are all grouped in a huge "#' section21:17
slateOne thing I miss is spotlight-style search device-wide21:17
javispedroI don't understand what was the role of smartsearchd on N921:18
artemmaslate: should be doable by 3rd parties21:18
javispedropresumably, simply querying tracker would have been enough..21:19
slateartemma: yeh, everything is readable? :P21:19
* artemma just released spotlight style search for just apps to the harbour yesterday. Adding contacts, media search, etc is just a question of open APIs, seems to be doable21:19
Stskeepsjavispedro: unicorns and magic21:19
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javispedroand quite hungry unicorns they were21:20
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artemmaStskeeps, "blackjack and sluts" is the modern version :)21:20
QuuNSFW-unicorn: http://termite.apcdn.com/full/112356.jpg21:21
slateIt sunday, no work.21:22
Hartzibut that's friday stuff21:22
javispedroI'm not clicking, last time I clicked on a random NSFW link on IRC ..... need more bleach.21:22
Quuits just little unicorn21:22
WaiteeQuu: haha21:22
Waitee:D21:23
slateFriday stuff would have 2 dicks in it.21:23
pdanek1Quu: umm, not sure if such stuff can be posted here21:26
Quuclose your eyes and pretend like nothing happened21:27
Quuits not like you need to click every NSFW link21:27
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pdanek1Quu: ah actually, I didn't know what NSFW means :)21:30
pdanek1so it's fine21:30
pdanek1Because I exactly thought of the situation of opening it in office :)21:30
Waiteewell this is a public channel for developing and discussing jolla21:30
Waiteensfw links dont belong here imo21:30
pdanek1true21:30
Quumeh, its internet21:31
WaiteeQuu: yes21:31
pdanek1Internet is for porn, right21:31
Quuif you get offended by something like that, internet is not for you21:31
attahdon't forget conspiracy theories..21:31
WaiteeQuu: pretty agressive statement imo21:32
javispedroyes, NSFW links have to be inserted from time to time to keep the NSA at bay21:32
petantikIt might not be offensive, but it's probably not the proper place for it either.21:32
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petantikAt least it was tagged NSFW21:33
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javispedrowhat? I need to rebuild firefox too?21:41
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AL13Ni just noticed something very weird21:58
DrainBamagedIs it because I am here? :o21:58
AL13NStskeeps: remember when i told you about that weird dialer thing? where +32NNNNNNNNN was replaced by +32c1899NNNNNNNNN ?21:59
AL13NCGroup: name=systemd:/user/nemo/c1/systemd-899/voicecall-manager.service21:59
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AL13Ni just found out this22:00
AL13Nno idea if it's related or not... but damn that's odd22:00
javispedrowhy?22:00
AL13Nc1 and 89922:00
javispedroah, you mean systemd-[\d]* matches22:00
AL13Nye22:01
javispedrowell, I assume that's a pid, so, reboot22:01
javispedroand you can try again22:01
AL13Nthe phone service provider shows in call logs +32c1899NNNNNNNNN where journalctl shows +32NNNNNNNNN in logs, but i cannot dial22:01
AL13N(or at least i cannot connect)22:02
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AL13Nyes, 899 is the "systemd --user" process22:03
javispedroI mean that after rebooting, the PID'll change22:03
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AL13Nprobably22:03
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javispedroso if make a call and it still matches, you'll have two data poinst22:04
javispedro*points22:04
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AL13Ni found this while i was testing my openvpn .service file22:04
AL13Njavispedro: yes, i understand22:04
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AL13Ndamn, how i can add a dns server from cli into connman ?22:25
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AL13Nno cmc or connmancli22:26
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artemmaStskeeps: sent you crash logs and comments22:50
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pahartikAL13N: "/usr/lib/connman/test/set-nameservers"23:13
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AL13Naha, interesting23:14
AL13NStskeeps: full log seems interesting http://pastebin.com/qhJ8emXx (look at the "unknown SS message" thing?)23:17
AL13Nphone webpage says: "20/01/2014 00:13:27  Uit  Premium SMS 3XXX 32c4899496560594  00:00:00  0,00"23:19
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AardAL13N: what did you break? :)23:22
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AL13NAard: i put in a SIM23:23
AL13Ni hadn't before23:23
AL13Nit's a SIM without data plan23:23
Aardand what happened?23:23
AL13Nbut for some reason, i can't be called/sms'd, and cannot call/sms23:23
Aardinteresting23:23
AL13Nthe phone provider seems to insert "c4899" between country code and actual number23:23
AL13Nor the phone does it, i donno23:24
AL13Nthis reminds me of the chinese curse to have an "interesting" life :-)23:24
Aard  building a phone definitely let's you see lot's of "interesting" things23:25
AL13Nhehe23:25
AL13NAard: things is, i don't really know how to debug this further, or if this is provider issue, or phone issue23:26
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AL13Non the one end, it does seem to get in the logs23:26
AL13N(of the provider)23:26
AL13Nbut otoh, the number doesn't really display correctly, doesn't it...23:26
Aardalterego: maybe you want to look at that? :)23:26
AL13Nand my work-phone android can't call/SMS it, but i don't see those in the history of the phone provider, so...23:27
AL13Ngah, since i have a Jolla, i'm hating android23:27
AL13Ni'm double-tapping and such23:27
lpotterAL13N: that just horrible23:27
AardAL13N: I hated android before I had a jolla. I'm quite happy that I nowadays can use some interesting android apps without suffering android as such23:28
AL13Nmyeah, i see the point23:28
AL13Nwell, i guess when alterego wakes up tomorrow he'll have some interesting IRC logs23:29
AL13NAard: would it be possible to send me a test SMS/test call?23:29
Aardsure23:29
Aardnumber?23:29
AL13Njust to see if i see this in the phone provider logs, or if this is my android crapping out23:29
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jusicsAL13N: just thinking, maybe you have to actually receive the sms before it shows up in provider logs?23:32
AL13Njusics: that's possible23:32
AL13Ndon't see anything in the phone provider logs... maybe the provider locked me out...23:32
AL13Njusics: the question is why don't i, (nor do i see anything on the phone journal)23:33
AL13Nthe site said my sim is "active"23:33
AL13Ngrr23:33
jusicstry putting that sim in another phone for a while?23:33
jusicsto see if it can clear the sms queue23:34
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AL13Njusics: heh, it doesn't fit anymore in another phone :-)23:35
jusicsok :)23:35
AL13Nbtw: can anyone look at my service settings and see if i'm not doing anything illogical? http://imagebin.org/28758423:35
AardAL13N: you don't have enough phones on your desk :p23:35
AL13Nheh23:36
AL13NAard: not planning to23:36
AL13Ni already had 3 phones... people were giving me looks23:36
* artemma counted his phones ones, got seven. By now a couple of them are broken though, mostly because of home made micro-SIM adapters, sigh23:37
* Aard recently upgraded the permanently mounted charger ports in his desk to 8, so I don't need to plug in additional chargers that often23:37
AL13Nlol23:38
AL13Nbtw: i don't need GPRS to actually make a call, right?23:39
AL13N(or SMS)23:39
Aardno23:39
jusicsyou don't need it, gprs is just for data conns23:40
AL13Nthat's what i thought23:41
AL13Ni disabled all MSS, GPRS stuff23:41
* lpotter doesn't count his phones anymore23:42
petantikrun out of fingers?23:43
petantikI joke.23:43
AL13Ni went to this shop to rescue my old nokia contacts on phone memory23:43
* Aard neither, I think I nowadays have more phones here than computers, but I don't know exactly how many computers I have23:43
AL13Nand i went with the owner in the back23:43
AL13Ngods the number of phones was huges23:44
AL13Nmusta been hundreds23:44
AL13Nthe guy even had almost the same model as my old phone23:44
artemmaAard: we need to rebrand phones as computers some time soon anyway23:45
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artemmaheh, after the recent Intel announcements soon we'll rebrand running shoes into computers that run23:45
AL13Noh gods a few days i don't look at my emails and already 380 emails in sailfishos-devel23:46
* artemma nearly stopped reading sailsihos-devel list after switching to Jolla phone. GMail conveniently put all mails into sub-inbox, with Jolla I am forced to archive to Folder and.. no easy favorite folders neither in Jolla nor in web gmail23:47
AL13NAard: http://www.bash.org/?527323:47
AardAL13N: happened to me as well in my old apartment. which was a 16sqm one room apartment.23:47
AL13Nhaha23:48
AL13Nbut that one's a classic23:48
* artemma remembers a rumor from a friend. A mail server stopped working and nobody remembered where it was. They traced cables to.. a brick wall23:48
Aardit was pretty annoying, it just had a 16 ampere fuse which I permanently blew23:48
Aardso I had to shut down computers before using the microwave oven, and similar things23:49
AL13Nthe other day, someone asked my why Jolla was so great... i talked about possibilities and vim was on it and etc... and then he asked, but can you call with it... and i said "well no, i don't have a SIM in it yet" :-)23:49
artemmasome years ago construction workers replaced a small room door with a brick wall, poor linux webserver stayed inside and was up for few years more until ran out of disk space23:49
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AL13Nartemma: security!23:49
Morpog_Jollai just found out why qHD resolution. So jolla can use pixel doubling in a future device with full hd resolution23:50
Aardartemma: about 10 years back when I was on vacation I received a call from a customer if I had any clue where one server. they made the mistake of spanning an unmanaged network over 4 datacentres in different buildings, and when they tried to find it for a hardware upgrade they had not even a remote clue which building it was in23:50
artemmaMorpog_Jolla: why is that related?23:50
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artemmaAard: lol23:51
Morpog_Jollarelated to what?23:51
Morpog_Jollait just flashed through my head23:52
Morpog_JollaQt already dupports pixel doubling23:52
artemmawhy qHD matters?23:52
Morpog_Jollasame approach as apple used23:52
Aardartemma: was back in frankurt, we sometimes moved servers between buildings ourselves (it's just faster if you quickly get your hands dirty yourself). frankfurt city = using cars is a bit silly. so we borrowed the sack barrow from the mail department, and stacked 10 units worth of compaq servers, and some disk arrays on it, and went for a walk. you get pretty amusing reactions when you decide on the way to go for a lunch break with all that ...23:53
Aard... stuff23:53
AL13Na few weeks ago, we had a client that had some "odd issue" that looked suspiciously like layer 2 loops... unfortunately, there's various bridges, wifi, switches, fibre lines, vpn boxes with vlan passthrough, etc... all layer2 over dozen locations23:53
Morpog_Jollaartemma: 960 * 2 = 1920, 540 * 2 = 108023:53
AL13Ndude23:54
AL13Nthat's why it's qHD23:54
EztranMorpog_Jolla: well, yeah. quarter HD.23:54
artemmaso you mean that quarter of HD scales well to full HD. Well, indeed23:54
AL13N1/4 in 2 dimensions means halving in each dimension...23:54
Morpog_Jollahege yeah, but they can just double all graphics to support it23:55
artemmaMorpog_Jolla: okay, I just thought there's some deeper message :)23:55
Morpog_Jollawell, next device should use 1920*108023:55
AL13Nor qHD23:55
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artemmaMorpog_Jolla: okay, I just thought there's some deeper message :)23:56
Morpog_Jollanoooo :D23:56
artemmasorry for double message23:56
AL13Nartemma: oh, i just thought you meant to reinforce your opinion23:56
AL13Nyanno, some kind of deeper message :-) ?23:56
* artemma 's opinions are second only to Chuck's in force23:56
AL13Nok, i gotta go sleep23:57
AL13Nwork tomorrow23:57
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